Slashdot Mirror
Raster on Leaving Red Hat
I need to make sure people know the following:
I have nothing against my Red Hat in general - it's all against one person in specific - they abused E's user base and fdinally broke the camels back with a last straw. the mailed to a mailing list I was on and effectively stated that E users are a crowd that "festers around me" (thats a literal quote) - that was the last straw - and seeing they were in management they directed development andthus made red hat policies as they were - I'm keeping the name of this person out of it - but Red Hat needs to know I will NOT stand for their management staff offedning me and the Enlightenment user base like that without repurcussions. I care about users very much and I can't take any more of this kind of stuff. I have mailed Red Hat themselves and higher management and told them to do something about it. I do not want this kind of attitude prevailing - my negative comments about Red Hat are specifically directed at this induvidual and he is a big reason I left.
I think the rest of Red Hat have their heads screwed on right... just one does not.
Anyway - if you can paraphrase this or something that'd be good. anyway .. now to get on wiht driving.. :)
CT : I decided not to paraphrase, so you've got the story (typos and all) right from Raster. And best of luck to ya man. And I guess I hafta forgive you now for the "Meat Pie" thing...
--
I agree completely with the substance of your post, but not with your concerns.
RedHat is not Linux, and it's time that business users and investors find that out. People who use Linux do not underappreciate Window Maker and Kde. Window Maker's user base is vastly underestimated, and Kde's is ignored by those hoping to profit from Linux hype, but that is changing. The press has now started to go beyond the hype and delve into the substance of Linux. Commercial sites like Linuxberg are providing ratings for software like they provide for Windows software and advertising ALL major distros, not just RedHat.
RedHat has made several very serious mistakes. The first is being so closely identified with Gnome, and hyping Gnome well beyond its capabilities. Spin applied by Miguel becomes counter-spin.
The second is upping the price so that it is almost as expensive as Microsoft in the stores. Sure you can get the vanilla CD's for almost nothing, but Joe user doesn't see this when he walks into Best Buy.
The third mistake is in having a web site that is almost totally designed to fit a corporate image. It is very difficult to get the needed information at the RedHat site. This turns off users.
This will all hurt RedHat as it faces serious competition from other distros but RedHat won't go under. It's growth will be slowed.
The Rasterman fiasco will hurt RedHat within the Linux community and will affect morale within the company, but otherwise won't have much effect on business customers and investors once it is no longer news.
RedHat will gradually come around to default software in its distribution that current Linux users actually are using (which is not E and Gnome) and which business customers can use. There is little hope for either E or Gnome in meeting those needs. Everything will be ok but in the meantime RedHat has done as much harm as it has done good in pursuing certain marketing strategies which rely too much on hype. This hurts Linux and it hurts all distros of Linux.
All of this negative publicity does greatly concern RedHat because they plan on going public and this lowers the perceived value of the stock.
Notice the numerous posts by RedHat employees who should know better and posts by other RedHat employees to discount their comments in which RedHat employees are stepping all over each other in a keystone-kops style cover-up that makes them look like a bunch of incompetents. That's because they all own stock in the company.
But it should not be of concern to Linux users or free software advocates.
I have to say E is one of the best pieces of software for X that I have ever put my hands on. And, if you look at the current stable release (0.15.5, which is pretty stable imo), you'll see the way E has to go yet, and the potencial it has. That's why I think all this Redhat thing about Linux becoming a better Windows is kind of wrong. On one hand, it brings users to Linux, that's right. But I think this takes creativity away, also. What do I care about a better Windows? I don't want Windows, I want something cool, something new. Not a good implementation of old ideas but the implementation of new, better ideas.
:)
I think E has that, and I think it detached from the Gnome project at the right time. I don't think Gnome is that much enlightened and maybe one of the reasons for that is that it's being funded by Redhat.
An enlightened desktop... now that's a cool thought. Maybe the biggest problem they had with Raster at Redhat was because of them not being able to stop him having cool (maybe weird?) ideas. I guess I can live with that...
Nothing personal against Redhat. I just use Debian because for me it's the best.
As to the dektops, the usual way is having both gnome-libs and kde-libs installed, and letting E run the show.
David
Uh. Isn't this why Red Hat is in business, instead of a bunch of guys in a garage with CD burners?
Isn't the concept here to make money off the people willing to pay for said documentation?
I don't have a big problem with this general concept. I DO have a problem with people like the individual described (I don't assume these are all the facts, however) who are unwilling to let common sense into the marketing and development process. But shouldn't Red Hat deserve to produce its own documentation?
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
Hahahahahaha!! I am falling off my chair laughing!! This is the funniest post I have read in a long time! Moderators, you've *got* to up this one!
Sell out? Do you want to know how much I paid for my copy of Redhat 6.0? $0.00. As long as you can download the distro for free, who cares what price they charge the suits? They also have a remarkable habit of GPL(ing) their customizations.
.45 firearms.
This is nothing more than a disgruntled employee (raster) sounding off. In the computer industry we use the net to flame. In the Postal service they use
It's obvious that you're just ranting, and probably trolling, so i won't bother remarking on your other non-points.
/. finds me to be 20% Troll, 80% Funny
yep, i've worked at a company where the pointy haired boss syndrome was everywhere. i started working at a smal start-up with 22 people that balloned to 80 after an ipo.
:)
the ipo forced the ipo forced the company to put in a middle layer of 'touchy-feely, non-technicals (or those with some tech skills had limited experience). the result, a death march nightmare. products released early because of screaming from marketing, then screaming from 'managers' leading to all-night programming sessions that delivered the compiled code. but have a guess what a small bug would be in it. this is called fire chasing management.
i tried working within the system but ran into brick walls as the pointy haired boss would just nod and say yes to the work i had been doing but taking no action. so what did i do, flame at the boss, employees and the rest of the world?, na just left on good terms and found another job. no hysteria, no snarling.
so for all you young slashdotters out there, if yr in a job where boss is a moron, try working the system. if this doesn't work, leave yr job on good terms and find another and let the company to it's own destiny.
the pointy haired boss network can be yr downfall. a company i know had a 'programmer' who sat on their rear for months/weeks (phb's not doing their job) not doing their job properly, quit and leave them in the lurch before a big roll-out and his former boss happened to bump into his new boss. guess i wouldn't mind to be a fly on the wall
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
cpeterso
You also missed the fact that Rasterman didn't
expect to be quoted literally. He asked Rob to
paraphrase it, and instead, Rob just posted it.
This was supposed to be a quickie note to Rob.
I really hate storys like this...
this guy screwed you over, and he deserves what he gets, no it woudln't have done you any good, but it wouldn't have done you any harm ether... you should have done it!
---------------
Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I wish there were a few more facts to go along with this. First, I still have no idea what piece of hardware this person is talking about. Second, I can't search my mail to find out because no name is attached. Third, I'd like to know what document this person is talking about.
This is certainly something very old and most likely references documentation that I haven't maintained in several years now, and have removed from the RH web and FTP servers long ago. The fact that this info is mirrored somewhere is something I can do very little about. If I'm wrong and this stuff is still alive @redhat.com then I need to know what we're talking about so I can fix it.
I'm sorry you didn't care for my responses, but this story doesn't remind me of any real circumstances as *I* know them.
--Donnie
Why don't you mail him directly and ask?
/mill
Sheesh, this is turning into Enquirer.
Sounds to me like Raster simply couldn't take any criticism or direction from other people, that is, he didn't play well with others who had different ideas.
If Raster was working for me, I would have said "could you please spend more time making the UI simpler, easier to use, faster, and not spend most of your time trying to be a special effects studio."
And Raster would have said "but my users like these special effects, so I am going to keep coding them."
And I would have said "but your users ar a minority who like fancy desktops. Most people want to get real work done. I hired you to write accessible guis, not ones only usable by Kiosks or at conventions."
So Raster couldn't take the fact that Red Hat didn't appreciate E users, and wanted to make a desktop that average users would like.
Tough.
To me, Redhat isn't evil, rather,Raster is a cowboy coder who can't handle compromise and working with others.
He will have trouble at any job he goes to until he grows up, or unless he is the manager.
But a good manager listens, and he would probably piss off his employees too by being a dictator.
Poor communication and people skills.
Many people who have to translate between their native tongue and English either make many spelling/grammatical mistakes or come off sounding very mean and "flamish" in their messages.
If you, or anyone, are a person who makes such snap decisions without any understanding or wisdom you shouldn't be running Red Hat or any Linux distribution. Go back to the dark side where you belong.
---
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
Don't bother searching the mailing list archives on enlightenment.org to find the culprit. I jaunted over there to do a search on "festering" and got:
This mail archive is currently broken
Red Hat has good ideas.
I was surprised myself that RH6.0 shipped with the Enlightenment window manager. However, if this is really true, I think that we should just let it go.
I mean, so he left Red Hat. It's not the end of the world or anything. RH will still be around, he will still be around, so I don't see what all the hoopla is about.
Dude, get a grip. Red Hat Linux doesn't cost anything. I mean, yeah, if you want the official CD with all the extra stuff on it, you'll have to cough up some cash, but the main parts of the system - the GNU/Linux parts and the RPM parts, and the GNOME parts that Red Hat has spent lots of money on developing are all GPL'd.
---Joe Merlino gnupg public key ID: 1E91EBAF
i feel sorry for redhat. here you are, trying to be an idealistic company selling an unambiguously morally acceptable product, hiring people when you could very well have taken their work for nothing and charged the same price. on one side you have the empire just waiting to crush you and mobilizing their stormtroopers to kill you off before you can get powerful enough to really challenge their authority.
but on the other side, you have the rebel alliance who hates you because youre a corporation, because you actually require money to live (as do all companies) and because you have to pay for all those people you hire that write software that everyone downloads from your ftp site. because you have to support their gospel with your advertising dollars. because you have to pay technical support to help further their Cause.
and you have to listen to them all bitch about how expensive it is when nearly all of them got it for free.
redhat can never win.
if they ever can triumph over microsoft, every GPL freak, 3l337 h4xx0r, and libertarian psycho will ditch them because theyve "sold out".
A corporation's number one job is to make money. But there are a LOT of different ways to make money. Why can't people understand that? The idea that Redhat will "become the next Microsoft" is ridiculous. The instant they piss you off, you download their stuff FOR FREE. And there's NOTHING THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT. Redhat doesn't know any more about Linux than any of us can, they can't hide any API's, they don't own any standards. Even the things they invent they have to put out for public inspection and usage, even in competing products.
People seem to think that Linux can get there on its own merits. But we all know thats not true. Tucker. Betamax. Amiga. (i hesitate here) Macintosh. Lets face it, money talks. Only big companies and the government have money, and, more importantly, power.
People should stop fearing Redhat because they are trying to get powerful. The judicious exercise of power by someone friendly to us (for once) is why everyone should support Redhat. Who can deny that they have already had a huge influence? Besides, we all know that if they ever do anything to piss us (the linux community) off enough, we'll kick their ass. This whole Raster thing makes my point, I think.
So give them a fscking break will ya?
unc_
I don't think he meant for it to get this big. His original letter was to a mailing list I believe, and one of the people there submitted it to Slashdot.
If I were in a crappy situation that had something to do with a product I was working on, I can totally see putting a message on a list for it to say things were bad and I was leaving. However he didn't ask anyone to spread the word, and he didn't send it to Rob as a news story. So in that case, it hardly sounds like publicity.
It doesn't matter how difficult these people are to manage - Red Hat must maintain GNOME development staff. Red Hat chose to make E part of GNOME; no better resource on E is available.
You can't buck the GUI trend of the rest of the Linux distributions and dispose of the developers at the same time.
The GNOME in RH6 is very much a work in progress. Substantial integration issues remain. The timing on this is catastrophic.
This is a suicidial move by Red Hat. They might as well drop back to fvwm95.
This is looking more like a lesson in "How NOT to manage your Geek." Perhaps his managers missed those last few /. discussions on the subject.
/.
This pretty much invalidates most of the 400+ messages to the previous info.
It still sounds to me like Red Hat is doing right by us. I mean, they are STILL releasing everything as GPL.
Careful folks, or we might give Paranoia a new definition: see
Andrew Gilmore
(gotta do something while my home directory gets restored from tape!)
------ Nope, Not me, you can't prove I said that!
RedHat has seriously invested both time and money in Gnome, and almost all of their GUI staff are Gnome developers and hardcore fans. I can think of only one KDE person there, and his primary job isn't even coding. So do you think they will be going to KDE as the primary desktop anytime soon, even if it is free software and easy to use? Hell no, most of RH is avidly anti-KDE.
You should not make the mistake of antagonizing one particular segment of the Linux user base. It is to our benefit to encourage all types of people to use it and help mold and shape it into the best O/S it can possibly be. This is not to say that we want a bland/generic operating system that is no fun to use. It should be a highly customizable O/S that can be used by everybody and yes, even be easy to use. Your kind of antagonism towards one group of users is probably exactly why Rasterman decided to leave Red Hat.
Interesting Raster said that he had trouble with a certain individual in Redhat. Recently, I had a run-in with an individual from the @redhat.com domain who has essentially convinced me to boycott Redhat and find another distribution for myself and for the company I work for.
I won't name names either, but the attitude I got from this @redhat.com person was enough to convince me of Redhat's growing arrogance. The 5.X series was more than enough to convince me of their slipshod QA.
I hope Red Hat learn from this that although attracting big business is important they shouldn't forget their roots. Projects like Enlightenment are the heart and soul of Linux, and help to keep it alive and improving. Diversity is good!
I'm sure Linux could be turned into a better Windows than Windows, and maybe that would be a good thing in a lot of cases, but we don't have to lose the ability to configure the look and feel of system. Just because I use Linux for serious work, there's no reason my desktop should look bland and corporate (yes, I use Linux and Enlightenment at work).
Actually, I'm not too happy with the way Gnome tries to hide the fact that Enlightenment is running as the WM and maybe a little separation of the two will be good for both. I like the Gnome apps, but I want Enlightenment to control the way my sceen and windows look, and the trend seemed to be towards Gnome taking over the whole show...
Yes, I definitely thing the split will turn out to be a Good Thing for all parties.
--
I had this problem at the last company I worked at. My first boss redefined the term "f#$&ing a$$hole," to the point where I almost punched him out on the production floor for lying about me to my co-workers (who knew better) with me standing right there.
Anyway, he "left the company by mutual agreement" (read: Quit or you're fired) when new owners took over. I had 2 more bosses before the place went belly-up and they were both very easy to work for.
What you're saying is absolutely true, although you can extend that to your boss' boss and the VP of your organization (usually a PHB even in engineering).
Call me skeptical, but do you have proof that this actually was from Raster? (A pgp signature or something?) According to his website he denies having written the article /. mentioned last time and said that anything else he had to say would be on his own website.
This could still just be some jerk fucking us (and him) around.
Not that it's our business anyway. It's between him and Red Hat.
axolotl
Okay, so, Raster leaves RedHat with the intention of spending more time on E and making it the God of all window managers. E is *still* open source. Redhat no longer has to pay someone to develop E, and no longer has to deal with a engineer who doesn't fit into a corporate environment. They still get E, now they just don't have to pay for it.
Its not for kids or something...
I don't know what you consider "kids", but as an 8th grader, I happily use E (unfortunately with GNOME).
Personally, I think that E is a work of art, and kicks ass. But GNOME needs help in that Bloatware area.
Some early Calculus stuff:
Let rh(t) be RedHat's similarity to M$ at time t. (rh(t)=1 means that RH=M$)
Then we can conclude that:
lim rh(t) = 1
t->Infinity
How soon you will burn in hell and die
like the sniviling, iconoclastic worm that you are
(I had to include some words I might misspell, I don't really know what 'iconoclastic' means)
BURN BURN BURN YOU SPELL-CRAZED NAZI!
---------------
Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I think "code it yourself" is where the RHAD team needs to become. They do need to get more people involved. However, they are taking the wrong steps to get to that point. Presently, the RHAD team seems to be concentrating on getting lots of GNOME apps out quickly without much thought being put into it. For the "code it yourself" attude to be taken seriously, the direction of RHAD needs to change to laying down a solid GNOME foundation of a development model instead of a carton of pop-corn apps. What has gotten the Palm Pilot so many good apps is that the SDK provided a functionality simplic and well polished Pilot app as an example (the Pilot MemoPad). This app had all the basics expected of most Pilot apps (state-machine style coding, Edit menu with cut/paste, and information page, storage to memory, recall from memory, etc). Combined with Metroworks CodeWarrior, the Palm Pilot SDK becomes a powerful force in cranking out apps that meet and standardized set of expectations. RHAD has failed to provide an equivilent to this in favor of getting thing "done" themselves.
Can't figure out what spelling has to do with coding.. it's more like the reverse.. someone that spell bad consentrated in math and other logical things in school and after all logic is a must if you code.. and code does not get to opimised if you cant do math..
The early developers of Unix and the standard C library can't spell worth beans:
creat()
strcmp()
...
cpeterso
This is not true!
They only display the last two articles posted.
I checked this earlier today myself, the article was there.
Linux, coming to a desktop near you!
you are one hellacious lamer, ya know that? i mean, come off it, the guy was on the road typing (on a laptop, most likely), and had stopped between bits of driving, as he mentions, and this mail doesn't seem to be meant to be published in Newsweek or anything, geez. course, it's not like you can program or write well either, so who's sposed to listen to you?? gotta love
"If you write code like you write English (ahem)I wouldn't be surprised to hear the word "festering" used in the same sentence."
in *what* sentence?! you moron! or "ungrammatical"! wtf is that! you idiot!
Perhaps he has learned some technique in the last few years, but I'll always remember the 3rd Year Graphics assignment (which had to be in Java) in which he refused to use any sought of class structure on the grounds that "it would make it too slow". He managed to keep the thing in one class but boy, was it ever ugly. (And pretty damn slow.)
I'm glad raster gave us one sentence telling us his beef isn't actually with ALL of Red Hat, just one person in particular.
This whole thing kind of strikes me as a semi-publicitiy stunt. People shouldn't write publicly about their former employers unless it's really, really bad. And in this case, it was just a minor personality conflict.
Kind of ridiculous. If you don't like it, just quit. It's that simple.
I have to laugh here... Why would a libertarian shun a company engaged in a lawful, non-coercive capalistic activity? Especially when it came to Linux, where there are no less than 4 mature distributions, countless minor ones, and the option of completely rolling your own.
Other than that quip, I essentially agree with what you've stated.
RedHat will never be in a position to restrict your choices when it comes to Linux. Ask any Debian, Slackware, or SuSE user. They can't co-opt the kernel, nor any of the other GNU software upon which they depend. Even if they developed the next "killer app," and decided not to release it's source, as a means of distinguishing themselves from the other distributions, what's the harm in that?
There is nothing inherently evil about making money. There is nothing inherently evil about selling something that's free, providing you can find a willing buyer.
There's certainly value in what RedHat does, bundling together an entire Linux distribution, producing useful documentation for it, and distributing it in a convienient format. It's admirable that they have been willing to pay developers to write code that will benefit not only themselves, but the Linux community at large.
No harm, no foul.
For those that would die defending it, Freedom
has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
it has yet to crash on me...
Posted by d106ene5:
All this seems much ado about nothing. Some guy out there wanted to quit his job so he did. Who really cares? Let the man make his personal decisions in peace.
This celebrity obsession is really tacky and inconsiderate to "Raster".
I think what most people are missing here is that Raster's first post was to the Enlightenment mailing list. It wasn't to slashdot. Him leaving RH is important to Enlightenment development. Therefore, people saying that this is all a big publicity stunt are ignoring that Raster did not directly submit the first article to Slashdot. The second article, however, seems to be more of a response to public questions, and thus has been submitted to slashdot.
Ya gotta luv the pies, man. Nothing like the footty without a pie.
But I'm currently running E on a P100 with 48mb of ram. I agree that E's default theme is pretty sick, but change that, and you have a pretty decent window manager. But hey, don't let me stop your boycott :)
FinkPloyd
Chris DiBona
VA Linux Systems.
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
VP, SVLUG
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
How did RedHat make a big mistake? It was Raster who quit...RedHat didn't fire him. Is it a loss for RedHat? Most assuredly...but, unless Raster himself comes forward to outline the steps he took to address his problem with his superior (ie. private meeting, greivence procedures..etc, etc), how do we know that this manager and Raster simply did not get along and the moment the manager made a stupid comment, or slipped up (newflash folks, otherwise decent people can and will make mistakes), Raster just used it as an excuse to bolt?
We are seeing one side of the story here people, and while one can laud Raster for standing up for the E users, he was playing in a completely different world than the grade school sandbox where one can pick up their toys and leave if Johnny doesn't play nice, and he should have acted like it. It would have been far better if there was at least an attempt at a understanding of the situation...and maybe there was, it's just no one who knows is talking about it.
While I am probably one of the worst spellers around, I always make sure my writing is in good form before pushing the "submit" or "print" button.
An ability to communicate is incredibly important in all walks of life, whether that be office politics or a simple note. It may seem anal, but it smooths the gears in our society. Imagine life if everyone understood *exactly* what everyone else was saying.
As an example, my favorite computer science professor has a bunch of degrees pertianing to computer science (Math, comp. engineering, comp. sci.) and and a BA in English. His lectures and his writings are crisp and they are what make him an effective teacher.
Good communication skills makes an effective leader.
-John
hi Bruce,
I think you've missed the mark a little with
your superstar description. I believe that one
of the main reasons Linus is so successful is that
he doesn't fall into the trap of thinking he's a
superstar. Anyone who reads linux-kernel knows
what his reaction to a comment like that from
management would be, simply "go away".
Basically, if you employ someone who's really
good, they will manage you where you fall short.
cheers
Greg
P.S. You Americans just don't get vegemite, it's
a concentrate. So next time try just a little bit.
This isnt suicidal... the GNOME hackers could always write their OWN window manager... :)
Personally, I would LOVE to have a window manager with XML configuration scripts... Would be nice have the settings all in 1 control panel....
yep that's a cool idea, but rh is aiming at business and phb's (point haired bosses in business) that are looking for the 'm$' equivalent in unix 'rh' so they may not ever get to hear about 'debian'. even if they do debian is free. business cant handle free software, they want to pay for it.
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
It seems to me that if you like the company you work for, but don't get along with a single person, you don't quit but you work it out. You talk to higher management, make it known that you have some sort of conflict and you work it out... Arange to be on different projects, whatever. Did Raster try this approach? If he really liked working for RedHat you would think he would have. This doesn't jive with what he said before about having ideological differences with Redhat's wanting to make a "windows" clone. Whatever the reason, the West is the best... welcome Raster... lets get drunk sometime :)
Debian? ...
Hell im moving to Suse and for the following reasons.
1. Suse input into Local UK magazines.
2. Less Lib issues ( from experience)
3. Too much RH sidling upto Blue Chips
as For E well I tried to get Gnome working as E was required to install I discovered E worked. Sorry Miguel but E worked. first come first served. Still Gnome applets are cute and Raster keep on truckin
And thats why Firecrackers and kittens don't mix.
You forgot the third, which is someone who is just terrible at typing, and is also in a hurry to get their message across.
I proofread everything I write just because I'm anal about my own spelling. However, if someone doesn't live up to my own personal standard I'm not going to hold it against them and say they're a moron. UNLESS THEY TYPE IN ALL CAPS AT THE SAME TIME. In that case they can go to hell.
I find E very usable personally. I've also used AfterStep, KDE on occasion, although I dislike it, and some of the others out there, and E is (for me) the most usable. I like the way it works, and glitz can be nice sometimes - I don't like the idea of working using twm when I can have a desktop that makes me want to work.
;)
I think raster has contributed a lot to gtk, particurly the themes stuff that he worked on - this is considered highly by several people and is useful, despite it's current rather weak uses, could come in very useful in a mixed environment.
There's no reason that a desktop should be ugly - I'ld find that very offputting (personally)
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
I've worked for/with some complete losers as well. But rambling, misspelled, ungrammatical rants aren't the way to convince people.
It looked like E was pretty important to RH (new default WM and tightly integrated to GNOME). And Raster was the main E developer. So if he had a problem with a manager, why not go to a higher up and complain? Surely RH is smart enough not to lose the goose that lays the golden eggs.
No, I think it is much more likely that Raster acts in person a lot like his emails paint him out to be--and his manager wanted someone a little more mature to headup a crucial project like a Window Manager for "The People's Distro". The manager probably tried to get Raster to clean up his act (if not his code) and that just "broke the camel's back".
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
not true. yesterday the aforementioned article was on the front page of redhats main site http://www.redhat.com it's possible you went there after /. scolled the story. full points to rh for this. ms would NEVER have let that happened (employee publicly abusing the company on it's front page).
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
... sometimes you just have to bail BEFORE you have another job lined up. I joined one company and discovered over the course of the first 3 days on the job that I had been lied to about the length of my vacation, the 401(k) options, the dress code, the actual job assignment, AND the platform I'd be working on. Those first 3 days were the last 3 days, too... I just walked. Had another job in 2 weeks -- it's a lot easier to job hunt when you don't have to "hide" it from your current employer.
oh cool 40$ for the version that i can d/l or by at cheapbytes. wow thats about 39.99 for the handbook witch u also get on the CD. If u cannot life without the handbook in printed form spend that money but i dont think that this is the right place to spend this money.
There are a lot of people in the world who can accomplish amazing things on their own but have difficulty working in groups. Playing well with others requires sometimes setting aside what you want in order to do what's best for the project, and sometimes going along with choices you don't agree with.
If someone isn't a "team player", then they should stay away from group projects. It's not that they're a bad person or that they're a bad programmer, it's just that they are not well suited to working on large projects working with a number of peers.
People should work on what they're good at. Individual superstars should go do their own thing. People who can play well with others should do so.
But we shouldn't start a witch hunt against the person that points out that someone isn't good at playing with others. He's just the messenger.
-Lyle
that's micros~1 :)
:)
You're right, it's been a while since I've been subjected to that.
Just seems that the cults of personality that crop up are the compensations for a job well done and mass distibution of your work. Not a bad replacement for cash IMHO (mainly b/c it allows easier access to larger sums of said exchange material and that whole ego thing)
Just to be redundant......spell cheque, please, it makes you seem more preffesionel.
+&x
Another reason for bad grammer may be that English is not the author's native language.
This might not be the case in this example it is often the case in comments posted here on slashdot. (just a guess)
English speaking people often forget to think about this.
--
Weasel
The guy might be a good coder, but he comes off as being very immature. If he only had a problem with one person, why did he in the previous letter slam GNOME, Redhat, RHAD LABS, KDE while praising his own work to the heavens and boasting of his noble commitment to users?
Well, that's my view. I wont post on the subject again, no use fanning the flames.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
nt
-- d'arcy poirot
I've been a manager and right now I'm a grunt. I baled from managing because of two things 1) I had some architectural ideas that I wanted to play with and 2) I wasn't getting support from my manager who just wanted to play it safe. I might go back to managing, I might not; only time and opportunity will tell.
I don't know who raster's manager was nor do I care but I will hazard a guess that s/he is a first time manager, has had no formal training on how to manage and/or might be a living embodiment of the peter principle. On the flipside, raster might have been able to better manage up.
The sad thing is that this event is generating so much bad publicity. I think that the uber-manager should have realized that there was something up and reined in front-line manager because good talent is more important mediocre management. As it is now, RH is going to have to spend a fair amount of time and energy rebuilding any bridges that have been burnt.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Raster seems like kind of a priss to me... I mean, if you are taking a paycheck from someone, you should do what they want you to do. What I'm saying here is based on what I've read in other articles about Raster. I've kind of formed an opinion about him in the past, and this is about what I expected to happen with him. If he wants to sit around and do things all day that he likes and that the people who are paying him don't necessarily want him to be doing, there is going to be friction. No surprise in this latest bit of news.
I suspect the issue here is code quality: If RH wants to be successful in the long term, it should care deeply about code quality. Code quality is a key factor deciding the success of a Free Software "product". For example, the linux kernel is relatively solid and rather clean. So is Alan Cox's code.
Anyone who has taken a peek at the E source (and I last did so before AC started cleaning up behind RM), knows that E doesn't come close. In fact, after seeing the source, I am amazed that RM's grammar and spelling as as good as they are.
[Sorry for the seeming ad hominem -- unfortunately, this is how I feel.]
Off topic, I know, but...
"About Face; The Essentials of User Interface Design", by Alan Cooper
ISBN 1-56884-332-4
I strongly recommend this particular book for anyone looking at doing some serious UI design.
--The more you know, the less you know.
you obviously didn't look closely at E. it makes perfect sense. everything works the way it would be expected and changing the feel of the desktop is easier than any other window manager. if it was hard to use only one person was at fault, because you should have the ability to change whatever you didn't like about it.
> I bet one of the RHAD (or any other party
> seriously interested in improving Unix's
> usability) might do would be to hire some former
> UI guy from (say) Apple and put him in charge,
> or at least in a position where he would be
> taken very seriously.
First good thing I read in this entire thread/discussion. The problem, regardless of UI, is interface design. KDE is FAR ahead of GNOME, or E in that regard - but still has some rough edges.
They don;t even need to hire a UI guy from Apple - just pick up Apple's 'Human User Interface Guidelines' (available in every bookstore), and use that as a target.
Harry Z
Hrm... I don't know if we should pay much attention to you... you appear to be a steve forbs supporter :)
---------------
Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Grammar and spelling this bad can only be the result of one of two things:
1) An unwillingness to admit error by proofreading. Very bad attribute in a programmer.
2) A deepseated inability to communicate.
=================
People who flame only over poor grammar and/or spelling can only be the result of one of two things:
1) An unwillingness to accept anything different than their silly world view
2) A deep-seated constipation.
"Run it through a spell-checker!" Dude, spell checkers can suck. If you can't spell, you have to trust that the spell checker is right, no?
Some people can't type to save their lives. You are saying they're illiterate idiots because they can't type? Get a life.
You my man, are too used to taking it up the hatch.
Interaction is knowing when to shut up and be the good little corporate boy, and knowing when to bring out the flamethrower.....
Let the newbies remain ignorant :) The rest of us know...
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
Don't worry, I don't think Redhat tried to pull a Microsoft, the headline probably just scrolled off.
Usually, I have a pretty good relationship with my direct manager - they need stuff done, I get it done - and after a while, they let me do it my way. It's the guys in higher positions that cause the trouble.
For example: recently, after getting permission from my direct manager, I installed Linux on my desktop machine at work. So that I could be more productive. Then a higher manager caught wind of it (via. the whining of the local system support person, not that I needed his support), and demanded that I put NT back on my desktop (in the name of "complying with corporate standards" - what bogosity). Needless to say, I do most of my productive work at home now (in Linux). And my job satisfaction has sunk very low.
But none of this is my direct manager's fault - in some ways I feel we both suffered together on this. (Having such a decision reversed must have been embarrasing, to say the least).
An esoteric scratched itch:
Homeworld Map Maker Tool
Having a break between jobs allows you to get your head screwed back on straight. After working in a job where you've had to either quit or lose your sanity, you don't want to walk into that next, possibly cool as shit job, burned out.
Take a much needed break. You and your next employer will thank you.
After the moderation of the entire first Raster thread devolved into "if your name is known, we'll bump you up to a five," it's sort of ironic that a funny post by a well-known name not only doesn't get upgraded, but bumped down to a -1. Ahh, the vagaries of moderation. Wonder where this one will go?
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
Neither of them can design an interface worth a damn, though. (There's a difference between something that looks cool and something that drives you nuts when you try to use it for more than 8 seconds.) Examples: Dr Mike is one of the guys behind Gnome Help Browser, which doesn't have a Find function! Raster wrote Electric Eyes and the Gnome Pager applet, both of which are extremely cumbersome to use.
Lots of other Gnome programs are about as bad. One thing that's really lacking is good programmers who are also good at designing interfaces. (Designing a good interface is probably just as hard as designing a good program.) The problem is that when somebody says "Hey, program Foo really needs an extra menu here and a button or two there," he'll too often hear "Ok, code it yourself," as a response.
That's a well-and-good attitude (I guess..) for traditional Unixesque programming projects, but for one that's intended to ultimately be used by the masses, it's a problem.
I bet one of the RHAD (or any other party seriously interested in improving Unix's usability) might do would be to hire some former UI guy from (say) Apple and put him in charge, or at least in a position where he would be taken very seriously.
It's a frustrating situation.
You're a suburbanite.
Incidentally, you still had a few errors.... Maybe Raster doesn't proofread his e-mails, and in that case, I think he did pretty darn good. On the other hand, that's one of the reasons why I hate posting on Slashdot. I can spell, but geez, some people really know how to flame.
And you are basing this profound statement on what exactly? Do you have some sort of insider info on how this thing went down? Or, more likely, do you just like stickin it to da Man? Really going out on a political limb there aren't you?
At no point in this whole tabloid mess going on have we heard what exactly transpired between the manager and Raster. All we have are the disjointed ramblings of a pissed-off former employee. You have absolutely no idea what RedHat's corporate level involvement in this whole mess is.
This knee-jerk hero worship is gettting very old.
What happened was, I was skydiving and my pants flew off. I got so scared I shit. When I landed, the shit whacked me in the head. Really.
I've been reading a management book (don't laugh) by some folk at Gallup (my employer; forgive the plug) that has the basic premise that the immediate manager is the biggest determining factor in employee satisfaction. Red Hat should take the matter very seriously if they want to keep good talent around.
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
What is with this "lets not name anyone?" RedHat's arrogance as a whole and the actions of individuals that show they care little for the ideals of the Linux community has been a LONG STANDING problem. In terms of the redhat domain address that showed me what RedHat truely stands for was Donnie Barnes, djb@redhat.com. He has been involved in writting and "maintaining" documentation that have been written to the same format as the Linux Documentation Project and sometimes distributed with RedHat in a method that makes it difficult initally distringish from being LDP works. In one of the documents written by him, he made it clear that RedHat had gotten several requests for Linux support for a certain piece of hardware and that the piece of hardware would probably never be supported (the company was keeping the specs closed). Since I had worked with someone to to get the company to release the specs and even written a patch to support the hardware, I notified Donnie Barnes that the documentation was no longer correct. He stated that he still considered it correct since the patch was unoffical and the offical Linux kernel still did not support the hardware but when it became offical he would correct the documentation (so the statement that Linux would probably never provide support remained.) A couple weeks later, I let him know that the patch was available in the latest stable kernel. His responce was that RedHat did not support the latest stable kernel and the documentation was RedHat's so the fact was he still considered the statement that linux did not support and probably would never support the hardware was the correct thing to state until the issue of offical support from RedHat changed. About two months later, RedHat came out with a new distribution with a RH offially supported kernel that worked with the hardware in question. So, I emailed him again. He stated that the documentation was written to cut down on technical support calls to RedHat and they wheren't getting calls about the specific piece of hardware anymore so the documentation should remain the way it was instead of him taking time from his busy schedule to remove the individual statement.
/w patches seprate and that they have provided their own code under GPL. But RedHat complettely ignores that open source projects remain fluid and changing and hence the documentation should also reflect that. Instead, they provide *closed* documentation for open source project. To *THIS DAY*, a large number of RedHat documents contain:
This really wouldn't be that big of an issue except for the *closed* license model for documentation. RedHat promotes that they honor GPL with pure-unpatched sources
his document is Copyright (C) XXXX by Red Hat Software. Redistribution of this document is permitted as long as the content
remains completely intact and unchanged. In other words, you may reformat and reprint or redistribute only.
Hence, RedHat can use people like Donnie Barnes to continue to create closed documentation that states what is "best" for RedHat instead of what is true. RedHat documenation can not be altered in parellel with the open source project it claims to provide documentation for unless RedHat feels it wants the true nature of future revisions to be included in it's close documentation. This is one reason why I never bothered to even look at GNOME. While Mr. Young was complaining about the modifiablity of Qt widget source, I slept soundly knowing that the Qt widgets worked fine for my purposes and what KDE programs I modified, I could modify the KDE documentation to correctly reflect how the change should be documented. If stating the truth (or at least removing the lies) is too hard to support for RH, why would it be any different for RHAD?
Donnie Barnes made it clear that RH does not desire my feedback. He won. I no longer give RH any. Go LDP!
this is what happens when money gets mixed in with the concept of freedom and sharing.
No one really expected a gold pot at the end of the rainbow, eh?
Red Hat, like all companies, is looking to increase profits. Companies sometimes do this by any means necessary. They keep their friendlyness towards the current Linux users because they are still the majority buying Red Hat. Once mainstream gets into Linux they will forget about freedom, GPL (as if they haven't already forgotten about the little organization known as GNU), and the Linux coders, nerds, etc. More money is to be made in closed source software. Why do you think Red Hat embraces GNOME and GTK so much? Do you really think Red Hat would want to pay royalties to Troll Tech when they want to write closed-source software and sell it for big bucks? Red Hat is not concerned about modifying and redistribution. Yet that is the reason they wrote a document (if they still have it at redhat.com) about the evilness of Qt. They themselves sell closed-source software. Talk about hypocrisy.
* Red Hat pushes for glibc so they have a "new" feature for one of their distributions. They need money--they find new features (like GNOME 1.0 is the recent "new" thing in Red Hat 6.0). Flame wars begin about libc5 vs. glibc. Slackware gets a bad rep for sticking with libc5 while people do not know that the difference between libc5 and glibc is very small and they will not be able to tell. People claim Red Hat is "innovating" while what they are really doing is jumping the gun on an unstable C library so they have a new feature.
* Red Hat sells "regular user" (average joe) CD's for $80 while saying the $40 CD is for "hard-core" users only. A lame attempt to justify selling something for $80 that is worth less than $5. The difference between Microsoft and Red Hat is that Microsoft actually makes some of their stuff (and purchases the rest) while Red Hat uses the labor of thousands and takes advantage of freedom. The only reason Red Hat is funding GNOME/Alan Cox is because they want to speed up development so they have a product to sell in the end.
* Red Hat pushes for a GNOME 1.0 release. And yes, I have seen the gnome-hackers mailing list emails from RHAD labs pushing the release. The coders of GNOME said it was an API release to cover up the fact that GNOME wasn't ready for the 1.0 hype. Having a stable API means nothing if the insides aren't working. It's like having a fancy car frame built but the engine won't fit under the hood once you finish.
It's OK if Raster has no hard feelings towards Red Hat. But, I'm keeping mine.
Actually, I feel like my new manager is one of the best things that has happened to the dev staff where I work, and the really surprising thing is he knows *nothing* about programming, or computers in general.
:) So when our last manager left, I wound up with all the rewards and none of the headaches of being the alpha geek.
The difference is that he *knows* he knows nothing, and doesn't try to bullshit his staff. He's been an effective buffer between my team and the rest of the company and he lets us do things our way. OK, he lets us do things our way because he doesn't know any better, but productivity has skyrocketed, and he's managed to weasel more equipment money out of the folks upstairs.
He knows his job. He's there to manage, not write code. He does a good job making the rest of the company stick to its commitments to the dev staff, and we do our part in return. And even better, as the lead developer, I'm making more money than him.
Now if we could only replace the VP of IT with someone like this guy....
Whats up with you?
I didn't see anything in this guys post that would make me think he is a script kiddie. I think you should lighten up, that kind of scathing remarks are warrented and don't make anyone look good.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
RedHat needs a good WindowManager like icewm (yes, it's easy to get it to compile). Rasterman made a fucked Image Viewer (Electric Eyes, never finished), Imlib (this is growing, but is SLOW) and this piece of code named E. It's a bad WindowManager, ugly and very unstable. Good luck RedHat. We don't need this guy. Rasterman working for VAresearch. HAHAHA.
How to contact me - http://www.pervalidus.net/contact.html
Linus may not exercise the power he holds; That doesn't mean he doesn't have it.
If he treated the folks at Transmeta (I'm _not_ talking 'bout his fellow linux-kernel developers; The distinction is important) as if he were a superstar... it would not be particularly nice or in-character, but he could likely get away with it, or very easily find somewhere else to work. Same for Raster.
If I read correctly Raster has said that RH are interested in churning out a Windows-clone for corporations. I think companies are only funding Red Hat in the short term to hurt Microsoft since Linux is the flavour of the year and RH knows this. RH needs a flashy interface to attract newbies. I think the top two causes of the user uptake of Linux are it's flashy window managers and general 'hipness'. It's already a better windows than windows - for kids, but as long as software like GNOME and E run on it, not for corporates. What office do you know that needs its machines to have themeable widgets and transparent xterms!?
/. yesterday (I still think he meant what he said; he's just backtracking here because understandably he's worried about his rep with prospective employers). GNOME seems hastily designed and slow. E just seems superficial, but I spose some people really like it's looks but not me. Both are unfortunately too motivated by ego and a 'world domination' attitude, but E more than GNOME is motivated but a good desire to simply code cool stuff.
I'm afraid I don't have much respect for GNOME at all, and I didn't have much for E until I read Raster's commendable sentiments on
What am I typing apart from great flame-bait? I'm saying that RH is in big trouble. I think it's riding on a wave of Linux hype. The articles about GNOME w/Linux being as newbie-friendly as windows are just crap. I have no idea what RH's plans are/were but I'm not worried about them because I think they'll fail. It pisses me off the way the other great free pieces of X software, Window Maker and KDE are so underrappreciated compared to GNOME/E. Window Maker has a truly great interface, small memory footprint and KDE is also an excellent piece of software, even though it's rarely given any credit. I think RH and much surrounding it is based on egotistical and/or power-hungry motivations and will probably implode in the next year or two. I don't have any dislike of RH, they're just another company like Sun or Apple, I just objectively think they are heading for a fall.
Nobody who spells so badly can be a very good coder
Get real, not everbody who can code can spell, and everybody who can spell can code. I can't spell when I type, but when I code my fingers are trained as to what I want to do, you don't have to know the whole language to code.
There is no doubt he would have been fired for technical reasons had he not quit
How do you there is no doubt about that, do you have information that we don't.
Well folks.. here's how it stands.
:) Raster is about as vital to Unix as a head cold is to me.
,GNOME.. kernel 2.2..)
Raster's first letter (if was his) was way too reactionary. First off, he passed himself off as some messiah. While I admire his work and what he's done.. I don't use X.
That's not to be insulting, just truthful. He REALLY should take a few breaths. Now , part two.
Linux wants to go mainstream. Fine. Welcome to the corporate life. Welcome to being abused and misused. I work retail in computer sales. It's hell. It's a 24 hour a day watch your competitors and hold on HELL. The problem with Redhat is that it's FIRST MISSION is to bring in the money. Like in Jerry McGuire.. "SHOW ME THE MONEY!" That is it's first, and foremost mission. It outranks ALL other goals of Redhat.
This is the hell that every single Linux mainstreamer should go through. You should be out here, it's a freaking jungle. This is what it'll take. Marketing, backstabbing, low wages, no respect to the grunt worker, high lies, petty crime, an occasional unfair practice or two. To compete in thie market, you MUST be ruthless. If you want Linux to go commercial mainstream, then you MUST be willing to under go this.
Same with Raster. Why does he think he's special? He can't spell. He's holier than thou.. what was he expecting from Redhat? That he'd walk in and throw his "phat themes" around and that Redhat would "jizz all over them?" Come on.. this is corporate life. If you aren't making money, you're losing it. If you aren't being solid, you're weak.
Remember when Linux was a Unix flavor instead of an over marketed hypetoy? I'd actually love to see Linux back where it was.. a hobbyist toy that worked well.. that didn't have revisions controlled by hype or by pressure from Redhat. (COUGH
But.. you all want this. You gotta take the good with the bad.
Jarrod
Can you imagine - there are countries where people don't speak English at all, though they still DO coding ?
I've been working in USA, Canada, Germany, and Austria, and AFAICT American programmers ARE NOT
the best. I would say that without all those
Indian or Russian programmers, USA would not create even half of the software it did.
minek
No, dear, it's "good communication skills make an effective leader".
/smartass>
The one thing I notice on these threads is the criticisms of Raster for being immature. This is like criticizing a just-born kitten for having its eyes closed. How old is Raster, anyway (I thought he was in his early twenties, but I could of course be wrong), and from where was he supposed to get all that wonderful maturity everyone thinks he should have? If someone possessing as much raw talent and in receipt of as much recognition as Raster can't be a little hot-headed at that age, then I think that we've adopted a set of expectations for human behavior that is entirely disconnected with reality.
If Raster's departure screws up anything in Red Hat's plans, then it is arguably true that Red Hat has some rather short-sighted managers; placing that great a dependence on someone as young and mercurial as Raster would a classic lapse of common business sense. I would expect that they hired Raster as someone with a deep understanding of X and an uncanny ability with graphical textures, not as someone who would carry the battle flag to victory. I'm sure that others working there have learned a great deal from him, that many of his contributions are greatly appreciated, and that the work will continue without him.
Raster is strong-willed and talented enough (even if he can't write to save his life) that he will probably go on to do great things, whether it is by himself or leading some others. I am also confident that, to the extent that his behavior in this case reflects immaturity, some of that immaturity will be worn off as he experiences the consequences thereof. I wish him well.
I might draw flame for saying this, but it needs to be said.
This is what happens when a person lets glitz and gloss get in the way of useful coding, and immaturity takes over.
Ok, the usual disclaimer before I get started. I dont use Gnome, I dont use KDE, I dont use E, and I rarely use X. I am not a CLI purist, just find that the CLI gives me most of what I want from a computer. Moreover, I'll say that I've tried E, and Gnome.
Raster's main objective in E is not to actually provide a useful window manager, but to provide inconsequential configurability for the sake of configurability. I'll admit that when I first saw E I was enamored, and said "wow, cool". But take a second look people. As a windowmanager, it provides a shithole of an experience. It's quite obvious that Raster, while putting a lot of work into the configurability and theme-ability, did not pay one bit of attention to the actual usability of E. In his previous statement, Raster accuses the Gnome developers of trying to create a windows clone. But I think that Raster copies microsoft philosophy much more than the Gnome crew. E emphasizes glitz and gimmicks rather than real usability. Gnome on the other hand is about usability. Even though they might lose track of that from time to time, that's the main purpose behind Gnome.
With all this E-bashing, one my ask what point I'm getting to. My point is that E and this occurence, is a reflection of Raster's personality. Maybe it was a mistake for the gnome crew to hire him in the first place, but It's pretty obvious that he does not jive with the goal behind Gnome.
But this is all just my take on the matter.
-Laxative
Why are so many of you saying, "raster is
so hard to work with bla bal bal", This has, as I
see it, nothing to do with weathere raster is
easy to work with. It is about the fact that some
one slanderd all E users colectivaly and that
pissed raster off. I think he is a beter man for
standing up for people we most of which he dosent
even know peosonaly and to whome he sertanly owes
no debt.
yes I use E. not becouse I think that raster is
the second comming but becouse I can make it do
things that I can't do with anny othere wm with
out patching the code.
-Jonathan
We'll miss ya Carsten. I'll be counting on you for sofa space when I visit!
Let's not forget one of the little added benefits of 'open source'....the source is open. Before you hint that Raster's code is bad, take a jog over to his web site and look at it. Then make the call, this isn't Microso~1 people, we can actually LOOK at someone's code before attacking it.
The above comments DO reflect the views of my ISP...in fact the spelling errors are probably their fault also.
i'd bet a 3x rack-space and a 10mb connection to a fat pipe that he'll be working for VA Research soon. They seem to be doing *real* good things -- and if i remember correctly his email address was raster@linux.com
Bah, I can beat that. One ex-employer convinced me to ignore reality (I'd made it known that I was not happy about my job being severely misrepresented to me) and stay by giving me a near-glowing performence review and a nice raise, then one month later the out-of-state PHB-in-charge decided to cut costs to cover his idiocy by downsizing engineers with the least seniority. I should have trusted my instincts and bailed, especially after I found out the multi-$billion company was cofounded by a statist Democrat senator (I kid you not, the bastard is still in office too).
Life's too short to put up with PHBs. If it takes four or five tries to find a good job, so be it. Just make sure you line up your new job before bailing out of the old one. And don't forget to consider contracting.
Best 'o luck, Raster...
Speaking as someone who is trying to "break in" a new manager right now, I can totally feel his pain. Nothing sucks more than working for a boss that doesn't support you.
Sounds like he made the right move to get out of there.
Posted by King Of The Mountain:
Agreed - but don't forget, some people shouldn't be managers. The guy I'm working with at the moment is (technically) fairly competant, and one hell of a nice guy, but can't manage a piss-up in a distillery (and that's where I work - A DISTILLERY !!!).
Then again, some people CAN'T be managed, or require very careful management. I've never met Raster, nor am I likely to - I've admired and respected his work, and tend to agree with his comments on E, but he is an obvious example of someone who cares more about the users than "toeing the corporate line".
Having said that, the RH manager he's refering to should have had more common sense than to make a "company-binding" comment in a public forum like that.
To Raster, I say "Well done" - move on and continue the work on E - there's lots of us out there who support your stand !!!
are not warrented!!
=P~
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
I just noticed (and e-mailed RedHat's generic webmaster mailbox about) the fact that even though RedHat claims to carry SlashDot news on their portal site, the two "negative" articles about RedHat posted today on /. are nowhere to be found!
Sounds like their PR/Marketing engine is in as high a gear as Microsoft's usually is! Congratulations, RedHat. You've now truly, "Known thine enemy."
+++OK ATH
You ignore the fact that raster writes sloppily
day in, day out. Go read some mailing list posts of his.
Q: What do you say to a "brilliant", unmanageable illiterate?
A: Damn it, if I wanted fries with that, I would have ASKED for fries with that!
Well, it also may be due to being russian. ;)
But that's obviously not the case
(Though I noticed that inability to construct
a meaninful sentence usually does not depend
on whether one is speaking his native language.
Case in point (looking at my reflection in the
monitor..)
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
I am really tired of such discussions...
--- GnorpH
In case you wonder, the acting director for the
Lab is Michael Fulbright. Can someone tell me
what has guy done? In the description of the memebers, all other guys are working on some projests, but I couldn't find much info on Fulbright.
Would be cool to have a radio transmitter in Rasterman's car so all his admiring fans can track him across the country.
But seriously, if I was in his path and not in Boston I'd offer to take him out to dinner when he passed through my town. Surely there are others who can offer appropriate hospitality to a road-weary hacker.
Note to Malda: the meat pie comment is just so 'leet. Stick to the news, pal. Just keep doing that thing you do.
http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
There's no need to visit a bookstore; Apple's Human Interface Guidelines are available here on the Web. The guidelines, indeed, have little to say about good program design (in terms of coding), but are an excellent resource for those who want to make intuitive interfaces. Apple's widget set is not what the text is about: its audience is (or should be) much broader than just Mac OS programmers.
woof, you sad git. this whole bad grammar argument just smacks of public school.
"good communication skills makes an effective leader".
argh. first off, it's "good communication skills make and effective leader".
if you understood what rastar said (i.e. he's leaving, his manager sucked), then he has successfully communicated.
get life a.
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
Grammar and spelling this bad can only be the result of one of two things:
1) An unwillingness to admit error by proofreading. Very bad attribute in a programmer.
2) A deepseated inability to communicate.
I was originally thinking #1 was the case, but now that I think of how difficult E is to use it may actually be #2 that is the problem. The interface sure didn't communicate anything to ME about what I was supposed to do.
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Some managers just suck. I've left jobs because of crappy managers. Once I even threatened to leave, and they offered me more money to stay. I stayed and took the money, but then left soon thereafter anyway because my boss was completely worthless. It isn't fun to work for a crappy manager no matter how much money you make or how much fun your "job" is - it just ain't worth it.
- huxtah
yeh, the manger at Red Hat Software is an "old mother fucker who dosn't know the diffrence Winblows, and X" you are stupid
---------------
Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Maybe E was bloatware in the .14.x devel series, but if you had bothered to use it recently you would know better. I'm using the .15.5 snapshot on an AMD 266 overclocked to 300 with a 2mb vc and 32mb memory. It performs great for me, as it stands it's just as fast as icewm.
If you want to turn on all the graphical bells & whistles (sliding windows, opaque windows, etc.) then it will naturally take a speed hit. However, they key here is that you can turn all of it off, on, or just have some of it running. Thanks to the nifty graphical config these days, it's just a matter of clicking a few options.
Don't flame something which you haven't used for six months.
Moreover.. PLEASE PLEASE be aware that he can be criminally held liable for bad comments about redhat software as an entity. If said comments are slanderous or libelous...
So please, let's not be redhat bashing. Looks like they ditched an arrogant brat.
J
sometimes it's better to look at things they way they are than the way they should be. When you communicate, everything you do (physically) contains useful data. In a sense, typos simply replace the involuntary movements of the physical body that tell us so much.
or so little...
Right on. I challenge anyone to find another for-profit company which has done as much to advance open source software.
It seems that too many people cannot appreciate "good" without reference to a percieved "bad". This seems to happen at all levels of society. Complex issues are polarised and reduced to simple dichotomies so they can fit in small minds.
You seem to think that bad spelling/grammar in a message is a guaranteed sign of some deep-down personality problem. Why don't you think a little about the situation before insulting Raster based on one email.
Note: In his former announcement, and this one, Raster indicated that he was on the road. This indicates that he is likely using a slow and/or unreliable connection. Ever tried checking email over a telnet session that would die occasionally, or simply freeze up for 5-15 seconds at a time? I have, and I guarantee you that I didn't give a damn about grammar or spelling in those situations, only about finishing important messages.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Isn't KDE defined as "acceptably open source" by Red Hat nowadays?
I think KDE is just what Red Hat needs - it's so like Windows it's too scary to even contemplate.
I like Enlightenment but have a hard time with it until I get a decent pager and a less harrowing installation procedure. Until then, it's SGI 4DWM for me.
D
----
This should go to show that RedHat wont reign forever or nor should they. RedHat was good for what it was and a lot of people cut their teeth on it but the users will continue to evolve. I for one will be glad to see someone who can do a better job that RedHat we need Stiff competition to really get things cooking. Maybe we will see a Raster based distro soon that would be very evolved. I think Raster shows how fast the users are evolving and RH is showing how slow and adverse buisnesses can be to evolution.
Good luck Raster I am pulling for you, and further plans for E
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
No offense, but you sound like a manager's worst nightmare. If you write code like you write English (ahem)I wouldn't be surprised to hear the word "festering" used in the same sentence.
Proofreading is like debugging.
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
>They don;t even need to hire a UI guy from Apple
> - just pick up Apple's 'Human User Interface >Guidelines' (available in every bookstore), and
>use that as a target.
Uhm, no.
The Apple UI guidelines tell you the proper way to use the Apple Widget set with the Mac OS. They teach you nothing about good program design.
Using the right widget in the right place is only a very small part of design.
Besides, I really don't want a Mac clone any more than I want a Win95 clone.
Maybe you wouldn't be so worried about vegemite if you knew what it was made of.
Hint - It is described as a 'yeast extract', and yeast is a major component in brewing. It also contains heaps of vitamin B.
Just think of it as 'beer concentrate'. And you only have a little bit at a time - don't slap it on the bread like peanut butter.
MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
it's "manager's worst nightmare", you missed the apostrophe before the "s" after "manager".
From reading this latest email, I apoligize to Alan Cox for a previous flame that made fun of veiled and not-so-veiled critique of Raster and of E. Then again I don't. Both have been immature in getting personal here.
Raster needs help. Apparently, in the cruel geek subculture that exists at RedHat and other places where being over 35 is a liability, people have allowed Raster to make a fool of himself because they really don't care about the guy.
Nobody who spells so badly can be a very good coder. Still, I give Raster credit for great creativity and drive. He is very young and his gripes against RedHat cannot be against one manager alone. It's a whole subculture he is caught up in, in which he has become a celebrity and also gone in over his head in some technical areas. There is no doubt he would have been fired for technical reasons had he not quit.
Coding isn't everything in software design, and spelling isn't everything in posting email either.
Surely there is a place for creative guys like Raster in which others can help him in a cooperative way with some coding issues and in which they also can learn from his ideas and creative drive, which also is a big part of software design as much as coding is.
I don't use E but I have used it. What I really like about E is that it has the same creative feel that the Amiga had. Currently it is too much tied to Gnome, and that hurts E. Also to the esound module. One shouldn't need sound to run a gui.
If Raster is reading this - don't go it alone. Partner up with someone who is a careful coder and you guys work together to complement each other and make E a great shell for Linux. Find some way to make a living from E and its spinoffs - with a Web site or custom graphics you can sell or broker or something, even if E remains GPL.
Really, some of Raster's art is in a class with the masters of the Renaissance. Please keep producing the art.
Raster, you are not a geek. Don't try to be one. Be yourself and why the hell don't you have a girlfriend. Great artists are in a class that Geeks understand nothing about, but women do.
Your friend
I see posting anything to slashdot (or even the E mailing list) as pretty immature. Raster's argument with Redhat is really none of OUR business.
However regarding the "silliness" of creating another desktop, he's doing it becuase it's cool. He doesn't care whether YOU think it is needed or not. He wants to code something new, and so he's going to for himself and for his userbase (whoever is interested).
I think the point of this whole scenario is, he doesn't really care what you think.
What from yesterday was not resolved with this?
We've established that Raster is not a whining, immature employee, as some suggested. His response seems to be pretty level-headed, and his letter from yesterday is understandable. I'd be mad at first too.
We've established that Red Hat is not evil. Well, maybe not, but at least we've established that Red Hat was not evil in this case.
These were the big problems, right? (besides that mini-KDE/GNOME flame war, but hey, what else is new?) It just seems that Red Hat had a bad manager, and what company doesn't have a bad manager or two? The only problem I see is that maybe Red Hat should have put a little more distance between RHAD and themselves, at least assigning a more open-minded manager (or a more tactful one at least!) or, if he was from another department, keeping more distance between the two. A no-badmouthing-the-users-in-public policy is always a good thing!
BIG company espically BIG software has those idiots in management... that's why they are there, the company promotes them to the place where they will do the least damage... management. He's probably someone's uncle/brother/son/etc.. that doesnt have a clue and will never have a clue... anyone that would email a list with a comment like that obviously doesnt belong in software (or any customer based business) as for the comment about RED-HAT having their heads screwed on right... that is incorrect if that manager is still employed there. But he wont get fired, amends wont be made, and red-hat will become a microsloth clone... it happens, it always happens... look at sun, next, etc... they all became huge butthead promoting to management companies. the #1 thing to do with a boss like that is to pubically humilate them with their own words... a manager at red-hat insulted all E users... I figure that redhat HAS to publically impale this guy to save their asses, otherwise all those E users will buy Debian next time, reccomend people not to buy redhat, and some that are very offended will even viemently denounce the company right along microsloth... So red-hat... gonna save face? us geeks looove a good ol' fashioned lynchin! espically when it's a manager!! Come on... make em swing!!!
I went over to the RedHat website to look over the details of the 6.0 package. Reading through the packages, I saw that they now (as of May 27) ship versions that don't include support and the extra CD. Just the 2 CD's with a manual for $40.
Hmm.. this is getting a little out of hand..
First, its "They (Red Hat) don't believe users really count -- corporates and 'partners' count and what they percieve as the 'business world that wants an exact windows clone' counts" , and now (today) its "I think the rest of Red Hat have their heads screwed on right... just one does not."
Carsten, pick one and stick with it..Honestly. Rapidly changing your tune like this sounds just as bad in the press as it does in music.
I remember my first job..I got paid $5.25/hr to stack printouts on a reception desk at a community college. The work conditions sucked, and later on the management sucked too. Infact, there was alot of bad blood running between me and the guy who was appointed to be my supervisor. One evening, I saw him and a female coworker 20 years younger than him wander into a darkened classroom where they proceeded to "clear the desks" for a good half hour or so. A week later, she got a promotion, after only having worked there for about 8 weeks..Promoted past 5 or 6 other people (myself included) who had been there upwards of 2 years or more.
Certainly, this was something I could have easilly gotten him fired over..But, doing so wouldn't have changed anything. Complaining would'nt have changed the fact that this guy was an asshole, and complaining to HIS supervisor (or telling my coworkers) would accomplish nothing as well. So, I put in my two weeks notice, got another job across campus, and used this loser as a job reference to get where I wanted to go.
The world is filled with people like that..People in management who really shouldnt be there. You will ALWAYS have these sorts of disputes within any company. You either learn to comprimise, bow down and take it, or leave. The choice is up to you.
I dont blame Carsten for leaving Red Hat. However, it was a tremendous mistake for him to take his grievances into a public forum in the manner that he chose. Keep in mind Red Hat runs Slashdot headlines front and center on its homepage.."Rasterman Leaves Red Hat" is not the kind of thing that I would want splashed across my company's webpage. It makes Carsten look bad, AND Red Hat look bad.
And in doing so, it makes Linux as a whole look bad as well.
Bowie
PROPAGANDA
Bowie J. Poag
Geez relax.
This one piece of software is not going to make or break Redhat. This guy's ego aside, I really don't think the ''loss'' of this one window manager is going to torpedo everything the company's doing. GNOME is OK and will get better.
We have maybe 15 or so Linux machines, all running Redhat 5.2 or 6.0. People use different WM's---I like Windowmaker, others Afterstep, a couple use GNOME + E (in a default, basic theme), and some still a basic fvwm. We're happy. They're happy. Will we keep on using Redhat? Sure.
In any case, I've seen lots of people running Linux on their computers, both in my department and elsewhere. {I'm a theoretical physicist} I don't think I've ever seen a single person who uses a glitzy E theme day-in-day out. It's ''kewl'' that some people like that. But it's hardly a big deal.
And as far as slamming RH for making a Windows clone: FORGET about Windows. Just make Linux good. Being different for the sake of different is just as silly.
But nevertheless, why do people dislike Windows? The reasons that I've usually heard and experienced are:
1) it crashes randomly
2) it freezes randomly
3) putting in new hardware makes it randomly confused
4) you can't uninstall things cleanly
5) it is slow
6) bugs aren't fixed, and you can't cleanly upgrade
I've never heard anybody complain about the ''window manager'' aspects of it. After all---Win 95 stole from NeXTSTEP (though getting it somewhat wrong). In this aspect, Windows is OK, instead of being braindead.
So now, on Linux, you can use Afterstep and WindowMaker, which steal from NeXT more faithfully. Should we complain that Redhat is turning Linux into a NeXTSTEP clone? Surely not. {and turning into a NeXTSTEP clone isn't such a bad thing to shoot for.}
To be blunt, if RedHat isn't massively supportive of a visually glitzy window manager, and the ego of its author, big deal. They aren't turning into Borg.
Actually, improved development of the essential system libraries which made E possible, and integration of it into GNOME and KDE or as a basic X service (e.g. getting it into the actual X consortium distribution) is significantly more important.
I suspect part of the real story is this is where RedHat wanted him to concentrate his efforts, and he wanted to play with his WM.
Look, even Linus himself has to work on Transmeta's code some of the time, whatever it may be.
bottom line:
A BORING BUT USEFUL WM IS NOT == MICROSOFT V2.
This programmer identified himself with a piece of software instead of a concept, a desire and a movement. Too bad.
Linus and Rasterman, however, are both well-known individuals with their own user communities. They're happy to work for you on their own terms. You can deal with this, and reap the benefits of being associated with them, or you can let them move on. They won't let you push them too far, especially where their user communities are concerned, because if your decisions are poor they will be the ones who lose face. They won't tolerate that for long.
Linus wisely works for a company that doesn't have Linux as its business, yet is willing to give him time to work on Linux, so that he doesn't get involved in this sort of conflict. Raster didn't really have that choice... maybe he'll find a position like that this time. Otherwise, he'll have to keep walking the tightrope, which means being ready to leave when he loses confidence in his management.
If you want to employ "superstars", keep this in mind. They are not a commidity! You can't pay for their labor units and ignore them when it comes to policy decisions, they won't put up with that.
Thanks
Bruce Perens
Bruce Perens.
Posted by stodge:
This kind of thing is between Redhat, the Manager in question, and Raster. He shouldn't take his grievances to the outside world, as it leaves them open to interpretation. It also inflames the situation by allowing the public to come in and increase the tension by posting stupid remarks. Bad move mate. Immature move mate.
I am personally going to switch to debain once they come out with another major release. My personal experiences with redhat have not been good. I remember when they tried to purchase linux.com a while back... They just through money at the for the domain and probally would have just linked it to redhat.com. I think they are getting to powerful and are out of touch for their user base. I have been following Linux for about 2 years now and switching off between windowmaker and enlightenment for a while now.. Both well written managers... I'm suprised to see how redhat would treat the original author of such a prestigous piece of software. I say the entire redhat is at fault just not one guy. The redhat corporation had to make a choise bettween rasterman and the un-named manager and the obvously chose the manager... thus supporting his stance and the subject... this is a bunch of crap and im personally offended
Maybe someone should start working on a spell-checking module for enlightenment that would scan everything an e user writes on the fly.
Red Hat + KDE + (some problem fixes) = Mandrake
I've never used Mandrake (or any linux distro, tried Slack on a 386, but I didn't have enough disk space for X, I now run FreeBSD on a Celeron), but I hear only good things about it. Anyways, if Red Hat used KDE, then what would the difference between Red Hat and Mandrake be? (Probably target customers and such, but very little functional difference.)
I just want to wish you the best of luck. I think you have a great vision. I realy like E, and I hope to be some help soon.
As for RedHat....
All I have to say is "80 dollars for 6.0?" Thats all. nothing else. ( 80 dollars ! )
Last one in jail is a fascist.
... to screw up a relationship; whether it is personal or professional.
Raster's return to non-corporate fold isn't really a big deal by any standards. He's quite obviously a non-corporate personality who wouldn't cope with 99% of the managers anyhow. So what. Neither do I, and that's why I'm a merry freelancer, for now. (until I'll get my for-profit cooperative up and running )
Geeks and chemistry go hand in hand. Raster, in his own non-compromising way, must apparently have full control of the fruits of his work. That's great. And that works fine with the general Linux way of workin' and forkin'.
But at the same time I'm not certain that the RH manager supposedly involved in these events should bear any blame of Rasterguy's departure, other than having been unfortunate enough to get a job to "manage Raster". This is all pure tabloid stuff. (watch ZDNET at any TCP socket near you)
Good luck to Carsten though. May your ego be free to roam under the sunny western skies.