Did anyone really think that the DMCA, 1998's Holy Grail for IP law enforcement against long-haired hippy hackers in the 21st century, would end up being used against university professors for trying to publish research on encryption?
The DMCA is a prime example of a bad tech law gone worse. And Corporate America's esteemed representatives (they sure as hell aren't ours!) aren't even waiting for the dust to settle, they're passing more of its ilk. In the process, Biden and the rest have probably managed to doublethink themselves to the point where they believe they're doing the country some good, too.
And before you start prophesizing about the guaranteed demise of these insane laws, just look at Prohibition. Version 1.0 lasted for 15 years. 15 years of Al Capones and raids on speakeasies and police corruption and 'Untouchable' law enforcement and arrests of people for no other crime than having a still. The War on Drugs has been going on for a quarter of a century and has had even more disastrous results and yet The Powers That Be are as gung-ho for it as they were when Nixon proclaimed it to be more important than life itself. Can we really afford to risk a 50-year Dark Age of computing? Where "possession of illicit programmatic tools and paraphernalia" (read: a hex editor and an O'Reilly book) gets you 15 to 20? Where info-havens like Sealand get firebombed by the Copyright Enforcement Agency for being Public Enemy #1? Want a nation-wide firewall to protect our wholesome, media-industry-loving citizens from the corrupt world outside? The way this is going, I'd be surprised if it's more than 10 years away.
War on Drugs? It's been going onf for what, 30 years now? That's more than my whole life. It is painfully obvious that it has accomplished nothing except to give more control over the populace to those in charge.
I would love to agree with you that government-mandated DRM would curl up and die if it were attempted. But we cannot count on that. The various institutions of this country's government have a long and cherished history of doing stupid things for decades on end rather than admit they were wrong.
Still won't help. Even if 50% of the -AA's income dried up in boycotts, they'd just run to Congress complaining about "rampant piracy destroying the American way of life" or some such nonsense, and then spend enough loose change to get the CBDTPA/SSSCA passed the very next day.
My plan is to build an entirely new computer for use in my entertainment center. With a big hard drive and a DVD, it can store all of my music and most of my movies. There are IR receivers that can hook up to the serial port so I can use a remote. The hard part here will be writing the software for everything.
So having the most powerful nation on earth running an economy with a point-source failure embodied in one ruthless, brutal, megalomaniacal uber-corporation with delusions of mediocrity qualifies as a Good Thing in your book? What next, pass laws forbidding people from selling their stock since doing so might cause them harm?
Yeah, it's an ISO standard. 'Legion' equates to a quantity of 3520. 'Multitudinous' is 1579, 'numerous' a mere 89, and 'sundry' is 567 everywhere except the US (where we think it's 543. it's even worse than our adherence to the imperial measuring system). I hear they'll be quantifying 'myriad', 'voluminous', and 'uncounted' next year. 'Flock', unfortunately, was a fiasco after that incident with the bird-watchers in Paris and the official decision has been put off till 2008.
True, but it sounds like Perens is going to make a very big stink about this. If they don't do anything this time when it's blatantly public, they'll look even dumber trying to nab him for a similar act in the future and may continue to let it slide to avoid losing increasing quantities of face. And if the FBI or MPAA or whomever should eventually decide to pick a fight, he'll have this huge history of publicly, noisily, happily violating this very same law without the G-Men even giving it a second glance. The lower courts would probably convict him since they aren't really supposed to question the law, but the higher Appeals and the Supreme court would definitely want to know why it was ignored so much.
Oh well. Probably wishful thinking. It should prove to be a very interesting trial, if there is one.
Fortunately, with the spiffy modular design thingy, you can buy an American 'skateboard' (skatecar? carboard?) and get designer frames from around the globe. Bet the shipping on it is monumental, though.
Which basically means that since there is so much fewer crap in the way
You betcha. The transmission, differential hardware, steering column, all that jazz gets tossed. And the fuel cell analogs of what little stays are _far_ more flexible in size and shape and placement than their IC counterparts. That drive by wire bit sounds particularly excellent, since it gets rid of the mechanical toolage needed for, say, automated driving.
You can always pick apart an analogy by simply stating that A1 is not A2. [voltage-water thing] You can always pick it apart by complaining that it doesn't explain electron tunneling.
That's the kind of thing I mean. If the analogy is a good one, you have to start picking exotic scenarios and highly technical details for the metaphor not to match up with anything. Anyway, it's neither here nor there.
they did pay for unlimited bandwidth, after all. the ISP doesn't get to bitch about it later). The user doesn't pay for unlimited bandwidth. They pay for uncapped bandwidth, on the presumption that they won't abuse it. Of course they do abuse it, which is why all the ISPs have hand to either institute bandwidth caps or byte limits.
Well, I've looked over my agreement with Time Warner, and there's nothing in there about capped usage or anything like that. Not even the sections regarding copyright. Only thing in there is that clause how "we can change the terms and not tell you about it and you will bend over and like it." That sort of crap is about as bad as a EULA that 'reserves the right to demand your firstborn in payment for services rendered.'
Have you ever heard of the strict regulations placed upon pawn shops? They are responsible for ensuring that their customers aren't selling stolen goods. Liquor stores can't sell alcohol to minors, even if it means pissing off their customers. Swiss banks were held accountable for not asking questions about the source of Nazi art. In many, many cases, industries which can be used to facilitate illegal acts are held responsible for monitoring and preventing those acts.
The pawn shop doesn't compare, since we're concerning ourselves with how the business is held accountable for what their customers do with products they have bought and paid for. Neither does the liquor store, since ABC doesn't get blamed if a 22-year old gets drunk and does something naughty. Gun manufacturers aren't held responsible for the crime if someone uses a weapon to kill or steal or whatever.
But I do see your point. Regardless, the whole 'guilty until you prove otherwise' aspect of how the -AA's are handling this via the DMCA is despicable. Would you like it if, after taping the superbowl on your VCR to watch more than once, the MPAA got your power disconnected?
Not true. If enough people took issue with speeding fines and made it a big issue in the next election then the laws would be changed. The government has a vested intrest in pleasing the electorate.
And if the guy they elect reneges and raises the speeding fines even higher? We may get to choose the head of the 'corporation', but other than that... as individuals we have very, very little control over how we get treated. And as far as pleasing the electorate goes, there are more than enough laws on the books to suggest that those making the laws like to forget about them for long intervals.
We can change the government every 4 years, but in the meantime they have a monopoly.
And again, if I am still unhappy with the government where I live, the only thing I can do is move.
I can't start my own government franchise (with my own constitution that allows murder), and then my customers could murder people with impunity.
But they'd be allowed to defend themselves under their own constitution... nuts, I don't feel like adding the whole 'anarchy as a government' thing to this otherwise fascinating discuission. Suffice to say, I think we can both agree that less government control is generally far better than more, yes?
ISPs don't have monopolies in most areas
For dialups they don't. For broadband they most definitely do. And that particular situation is getting worse.
Anyone can pick apart an analogy; it's just not productive.
Certainly true, but the better the analogy, the harder it is to take apart. And it really is ridiculous to try to impose fines on millions of people. So they are going with plan B, threaten legal action on 'mere' hundreds of ISP's, a course of action which makes up in disgustingness what it lacks in sheer insanity.
stores that prosecute shoplifters aren't worried about pissing off the shoplifters
Certainly not. But a shoplifter is stealing from the store whereas the P2P user is not stealing anything from the ISP (they did pay for unlimited bandwidth, after all. the ISP doesn't get to bitch about it later). Imagine the shoplifter situation thus: the actual store isn't worrying overly much about shoplifters, but the marketing agencies for some of the products they carry are going nuts over it and are demanding that the store start doing crazy things like strip searches at the door or kicking out anyone who has baggy clothes since it _might_ be used to shoplift or, as is happening here, letting you pay for a product but then not letting you use it.
P2P programs, for the most part, used to be to ISP's only something that sucked bandwidth and cost them a bit more money. The -AA's are going beyond that and trying to make them legally accountable for other people's actions. I can't think of a single other industry where this sort of insanity is tolerated, much less considered a Good Thing by Congress.
The government uses my tax dollars to pave the roads and pay the police officers' salaries. Then they turn around and charge me a fine just because I occasionally break the law
Again, the government and the police don't really care about your satisfaction with them since you pay taxes and get fined and arrested whether you want to or not. They are a 'local monopoly' and your only choice is emigration. Which is a tad more involved than changing an ISP and so not an option for most people. A non-monopoly _has_ to keep their customers happy since they'll just spend money elsewhere if they aren't.
I'm considering not paying my taxes next year.
I applaud your determination and wish you luck. Can you post to/. from prison?
Wouldnt this be akin to a shop keeper shooting an armed theif?
Not entirely. It's more like the shop keeper, after being robbed, goes vigilante and starts breaking into pawn shops and houses to see if they've got his stuff. And then, if he actually finds anything, it gets only a superficial check ("A Samsonite briefcase with the initials T.S. on it! Must be mine!") before he calls the power company and demands they shut down the juice to that locale, lest they be prosecuted for consorting with criminals.
i bet anyones ass that the EULA would be declared invalid due to its use to protect criminals.
Yeah, very likely. And yet when a EULA is written by criminals with deep pockets and big legal teams they expect it to be treated like a legit contract. Funny, that.
Not a very good analogy. The cops have no stake in your being happy with them. You are not their customers.
If you want to use the car comparison, then it's more like the company that makes the car is giving you speeding tickets. It's something you may tolerate a bit, but if they get overly obnoxious about it you can get a different car without too much fuss. The MPAA is demanding that ISP's start pissing off their customers in droves. Given the millions of P2P users out there, the ISP's know that doing this to the extreme would be akin to shooting themselves in the foot. Both feet.
About the only way this will be effective is if there are local monopolies on broadband, which is something we should be concerned about anyway.
No, what he's saying is to try and turn the tables on the MPAA. They want to search P2P networks and prosecute users. But the EULA they had to sign says they can't. And furthermore, their pet law, the DMCA, actually forbids them from legally installing it without 'signing' said EULA.
The idea is that if it should ever actually go to a courtroom, the MPAA would be forced to stand up and say, "Yes, we know that the EULA said we couldn't do this, but we did it anyway." And here's the great part; if they win anyway, it's a big precedent for the notion of "EULA's are aren't worth the phosphors they're printed on" and if they lose, then that P2P is basically immune from prosecution since the only evidence was acquired illegaly.
I agree with you on every point but one. There have been cases where domain names were ordered transfered when the situation was even more cut and dry than this one. Remember the Brazilian soccer team, Corinthians, that sued to get the webpage of the same name from the guy who used it to post quotes from the bible? And won? Or PETA vs People Eating Tasty Animals?
ould you rather sleep in a room with say a bucket of transuranic waste or with the equivalent mass of coal particles? Hmm?
Bear in mind that I would literally have to sleep with the coal dust. The concentrated waste gets nowhere near me. It can get glassed and dumped into the deepest darkest hole we can dig.
Indeed. I've always been a big fan of the economic logic behind the claim, "Earth will never run out of oil". As oil gets harder to acquire, the price goes up, eventually passing even the most expensive alternatives for any possible use of crude.
Considering the long-term advantages of being independent of oil (IC cars are half the problem by themselves), it's enough to make one wish we started running out tomorrow.
Slashdot Mirror
I love my country. I live in fear of my government.
Go ask the DEA. I'm sure they're very knowledgable about trying to enforce stupid, unenforcable laws.
The DMCA is a prime example of a bad tech law gone worse. And Corporate America's esteemed representatives (they sure as hell aren't ours!) aren't even waiting for the dust to settle, they're passing more of its ilk. In the process, Biden and the rest have probably managed to doublethink themselves to the point where they believe they're doing the country some good, too.
And before you start prophesizing about the guaranteed demise of these insane laws, just look at Prohibition. Version 1.0 lasted for 15 years. 15 years of Al Capones and raids on speakeasies and police corruption and 'Untouchable' law enforcement and arrests of people for no other crime than having a still. The War on Drugs has been going on for a quarter of a century and has had even more disastrous results and yet The Powers That Be are as gung-ho for it as they were when Nixon proclaimed it to be more important than life itself. Can we really afford to risk a 50-year Dark Age of computing? Where "possession of illicit programmatic tools and paraphernalia" (read: a hex editor and an O'Reilly book) gets you 15 to 20? Where info-havens like Sealand get firebombed by the Copyright Enforcement Agency for being Public Enemy #1? Want a nation-wide firewall to protect our wholesome, media-industry-loving citizens from the corrupt world outside? The way this is going, I'd be surprised if it's more than 10 years away.
I would love to agree with you that government-mandated DRM would curl up and die if it were attempted. But we cannot count on that. The various institutions of this country's government have a long and cherished history of doing stupid things for decades on end rather than admit they were wrong.
Still won't help. Even if 50% of the -AA's income dried up in boycotts, they'd just run to Congress complaining about "rampant piracy destroying the American way of life" or some such nonsense, and then spend enough loose change to get the CBDTPA/SSSCA passed the very next day.
My plan is to build an entirely new computer for use in my entertainment center. With a big hard drive and a DVD, it can store all of my music and most of my movies. There are IR receivers that can hook up to the serial port so I can use a remote. The hard part here will be writing the software for everything.
So having the most powerful nation on earth running an economy with a point-source failure embodied in one ruthless, brutal, megalomaniacal uber-corporation with delusions of mediocrity qualifies as a Good Thing in your book? What next, pass laws forbidding people from selling their stock since doing so might cause them harm?
Pero, Yo no puedo hablar el espanol!
Yeah, it's an ISO standard. 'Legion' equates to a quantity of 3520. 'Multitudinous' is 1579, 'numerous' a mere 89, and 'sundry' is 567 everywhere except the US (where we think it's 543. it's even worse than our adherence to the imperial measuring system). I hear they'll be quantifying 'myriad', 'voluminous', and 'uncounted' next year. 'Flock', unfortunately, was a fiasco after that incident with the bird-watchers in Paris and the official decision has been put off till 2008.
Oh well. Probably wishful thinking. It should prove to be a very interesting trial, if there is one.
Shamelessly taken from the book of the same name by Neal Stephenson.
Got any stats for this claim?
Fortunately, with the spiffy modular design thingy, you can buy an American 'skateboard' (skatecar? carboard?) and get designer frames from around the globe. Bet the shipping on it is monumental, though.
Q snaps his fingers and now Hydrogen is more dangerous than gasoline.
Hey, it's reasonable while at a Trek convention...
Really? I'd have thought it ould be the other way around. Any aerospace engineers out there that can enlighten me?
Gotta get myself a Dremel pronto!
You betcha. The transmission, differential hardware, steering column, all that jazz gets tossed. And the fuel cell analogs of what little stays are _far_ more flexible in size and shape and placement than their IC counterparts. That drive by wire bit sounds particularly excellent, since it gets rid of the mechanical toolage needed for, say, automated driving.
That's the kind of thing I mean. If the analogy is a good one, you have to start picking exotic scenarios and highly technical details for the metaphor not to match up with anything. Anyway, it's neither here nor there.
they did pay for unlimited bandwidth, after all. the ISP doesn't get to bitch about it later).
The user doesn't pay for unlimited bandwidth. They pay for uncapped bandwidth, on the presumption that they won't abuse it. Of course they do abuse it, which is why all the ISPs have hand to either institute bandwidth caps or byte limits.
Well, I've looked over my agreement with Time Warner, and there's nothing in there about capped usage or anything like that. Not even the sections regarding copyright. Only thing in there is that clause how "we can change the terms and not tell you about it and you will bend over and like it." That sort of crap is about as bad as a EULA that 'reserves the right to demand your firstborn in payment for services rendered.'
Have you ever heard of the strict regulations placed upon pawn shops? They are responsible for ensuring that their customers aren't selling stolen goods. Liquor stores can't sell alcohol to minors, even if it means pissing off their customers. Swiss banks were held accountable for not asking questions about the source of Nazi art. In many, many cases, industries which can be used to facilitate illegal acts are held responsible for monitoring and preventing those acts.
The pawn shop doesn't compare, since we're concerning ourselves with how the business is held accountable for what their customers do with products they have bought and paid for. Neither does the liquor store, since ABC doesn't get blamed if a 22-year old gets drunk and does something naughty. Gun manufacturers aren't held responsible for the crime if someone uses a weapon to kill or steal or whatever.
But I do see your point. Regardless, the whole 'guilty until you prove otherwise' aspect of how the -AA's are handling this via the DMCA is despicable. Would you like it if, after taping the superbowl on your VCR to watch more than once, the MPAA got your power disconnected?
Not true. If enough people took issue with speeding fines and made it a big issue in the next election then the laws would be changed. The government has a vested intrest in pleasing the electorate.
And if the guy they elect reneges and raises the speeding fines even higher? We may get to choose the head of the 'corporation', but other than that... as individuals we have very, very little control over how we get treated. And as far as pleasing the electorate goes, there are more than enough laws on the books to suggest that those making the laws like to forget about them for long intervals.
We can change the government every 4 years, but in the meantime they have a monopoly.
And again, if I am still unhappy with the government where I live, the only thing I can do is move.
I can't start my own government franchise (with my own constitution that allows murder), and then my customers could murder people with impunity.
But they'd be allowed to defend themselves under their own constitution... nuts, I don't feel like adding the whole 'anarchy as a government' thing to this otherwise fascinating discuission. Suffice to say, I think we can both agree that less government control is generally far better than more, yes?
ISPs don't have monopolies in most areas
For dialups they don't. For broadband they most definitely do. And that particular situation is getting worse.
Certainly true, but the better the analogy, the harder it is to take apart. And it really is ridiculous to try to impose fines on millions of people. So they are going with plan B, threaten legal action on 'mere' hundreds of ISP's, a course of action which makes up in disgustingness what it lacks in sheer insanity.
stores that prosecute shoplifters aren't worried about pissing off the shoplifters
Certainly not. But a shoplifter is stealing from the store whereas the P2P user is not stealing anything from the ISP (they did pay for unlimited bandwidth, after all. the ISP doesn't get to bitch about it later). Imagine the shoplifter situation thus: the actual store isn't worrying overly much about shoplifters, but the marketing agencies for some of the products they carry are going nuts over it and are demanding that the store start doing crazy things like strip searches at the door or kicking out anyone who has baggy clothes since it _might_ be used to shoplift or, as is happening here, letting you pay for a product but then not letting you use it.
P2P programs, for the most part, used to be to ISP's only something that sucked bandwidth and cost them a bit more money. The -AA's are going beyond that and trying to make them legally accountable for other people's actions. I can't think of a single other industry where this sort of insanity is tolerated, much less considered a Good Thing by Congress.
The government uses my tax dollars to pave the roads and pay the police officers' salaries. Then they turn around and charge me a fine just because I occasionally break the law
Again, the government and the police don't really care about your satisfaction with them since you pay taxes and get fined and arrested whether you want to or not. They are a 'local monopoly' and your only choice is emigration. Which is a tad more involved than changing an ISP and so not an option for most people. A non-monopoly _has_ to keep their customers happy since they'll just spend money elsewhere if they aren't.
I'm considering not paying my taxes next year.
I applaud your determination and wish you luck. Can you post to /. from prison?
Not entirely. It's more like the shop keeper, after being robbed, goes vigilante and starts breaking into pawn shops and houses to see if they've got his stuff. And then, if he actually finds anything, it gets only a superficial check ("A Samsonite briefcase with the initials T.S. on it! Must be mine!") before he calls the power company and demands they shut down the juice to that locale, lest they be prosecuted for consorting with criminals.
i bet anyones ass that the EULA would be declared invalid due to its use to protect criminals.
Yeah, very likely. And yet when a EULA is written by criminals with deep pockets and big legal teams they expect it to be treated like a legit contract. Funny, that.
If you want to use the car comparison, then it's more like the company that makes the car is giving you speeding tickets. It's something you may tolerate a bit, but if they get overly obnoxious about it you can get a different car without too much fuss. The MPAA is demanding that ISP's start pissing off their customers in droves. Given the millions of P2P users out there, the ISP's know that doing this to the extreme would be akin to shooting themselves in the foot. Both feet.
About the only way this will be effective is if there are local monopolies on broadband, which is something we should be concerned about anyway.
The idea is that if it should ever actually go to a courtroom, the MPAA would be forced to stand up and say, "Yes, we know that the EULA said we couldn't do this, but we did it anyway." And here's the great part; if they win anyway, it's a big precedent for the notion of "EULA's are aren't worth the phosphors they're printed on" and if they lose, then that P2P is basically immune from prosecution since the only evidence was acquired illegaly.
I agree with you on every point but one. There have been cases where domain names were ordered transfered when the situation was even more cut and dry than this one. Remember the Brazilian soccer team, Corinthians, that sued to get the webpage of the same name from the guy who used it to post quotes from the bible? And won? Or PETA vs People Eating Tasty Animals?
Bear in mind that I would literally have to sleep with the coal dust. The concentrated waste gets nowhere near me. It can get glassed and dumped into the deepest darkest hole we can dig.
Considering the long-term advantages of being independent of oil (IC cars are half the problem by themselves), it's enough to make one wish we started running out tomorrow.