To: info@peta-online.org To: webmaster@peta-online.org
Kudos to you, peta.com - for winning this "landmark case". Kudos to you, for restricting free speech.
I am very disapointed in your organisation - fighting for animal liberation. Freedom is also a liberation - which you now has restricted. Trademarks are a limitation to freedom. And - not only that - limiting humor is a limitation to freedom. You fight for freedom for animals, but forget the animal you yourself are - namely human beeings.
I felt discusted when I heard about you winning the case. Discusted, that people actually WANT to limit freedom of speech. Discusted, that people actually WANT to limit humor.
I have a lot of sympathy for your norwegian counterpart - that is "NOAH". I now know that I do NOT have ANY sympathy WHATSOEVER for NOAH's american counterpart - namely YOU - peta.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Well, "noise" when the disk is accessed is OK. But, after reading that article, I checked WTF was making all that NOISE coming from my computer. It was not the powersupply, it was not the CPU fan. Hmm.. COULD it be the disks? Ohyes. THey produce a high-pitched 'whine' all the time - by just beeing powered up. One thing is certain, I'm going to throw out that disk next week:)
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
I really really hope the KDE folks know what they are doing. Konqueror.. and security.. I'm sure its secure as of now. As long as it only SHOWS things as they are. I just hope they're intelligent enough to *never ever* allow scripting in Konqueror. When it comes to luser-friendlyness, linux is still behind windows. And it will always be. They *must not* go into the same trap as MS has done, and include scripting capabilities - even though it may be tempting.
Konqueror is very modular, if I've understood it correctly. That means its possible to write extensions (easily). *That* make me worry. What if someone gets this great idea of showing emails, and executing the javascript included in them? What when Linux get visualbasic script support - what happens when some idiot thinks "Hey! What a great idea! Email reader with js and vbs execution support! It's User Friendly!"(bad pun intended).
As long as linux programmers avoid these pitfalls, we should all be safe.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Ouch. That hurt. I've been promoting Debian for a long time. If they really go through with this.. well, then *that* is the end of me liking debian.
f*ck. I love apt. I love debian as a distribution. I've even come to love the installationsystem:-)
But, removing non-free? Uh.. that means.. removing ssh (from non-us) ? (OK, openssh exists)... That means.. removing netscape? (Where is the current alternative? Mozilla? is mozilla free enough?). There are.. tons. . of applications in non-free that is important for me, and others. It won't stay that way forever, but removing non-free *now* is a bad thing. Doing it in maybe 2 years time - THAT would be ok. But, don't remove it before we've got tools to replace it.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
I don't know the meaning of "tangible assets". (My native language is not english).
But, if you're saying what I *think* you are saying - that is - you're saying that its theft even when nobody actually LOSES anything - as long as the duplicator *earns* something on it - its theft.
I agree with you that making actual profit or getting your own expenses covered - in duplicating it - then you should be guilty of something.
But, if you copy it for your own personal use - and give it away to others without incurring ANY form of cost to the ones you're giving it away to (not getting any of your own expenses covered) - then it should not be illegal.
I know it *is* illegal now. But I think that is Wrong.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
OK, I see that you don't respect people with dyslexia (or whatever its called in english). Its always reassuring to know that the world is still filled with nitpickers who don't want to show any form of respect for people with reading/writing problems.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
First of all - I want to cheer Penthouse for doing things The Right Way.
They've uncovered the "badguy" - and gone after HIM instead of the carriers (i.e. the newsservers). They've gone after the person who abused their services - and not some innocent common carrier.
Their first point is - good. Even though I think we should rethink patents, copyrights and tradesecrets - more about that later.
Their second point on the other hand. The one about minors. Sure, it gives them a 'plus' in the almanac of christian puritans - but seriously - do you think they care? I don't.
And, the comparison between a bookstore is just stupid. The owner of a bookstore has a book less to sell - if its stolen. He has PAID for THAT book. Penthouse doesn't lose anything if someone copies their picture. Its copied - not lost. You cannot call it theft, when you still have your copy intact. Its duplicated, not removed. If it had been theft - this Muad'Dib would have to break into penthouse and steal their master copies. That DID NOT HAPPEN.
More about the first point - which I promised to rant more about.
The more I read about these cases of copying - the more I realize that we need to rethink the entire issue of copyright / patent / tradesecret. In this world, its *extremely* easy to make a copy. I've pirated music, I've pirated games - and I don't feel bad about it. I wouldn't have bought any of it - simply because I would have no way to afford everything I want.
I buy the things I can afford. But what I cannot afford to buy - I copy. I never had any possibility of buying Autodesk 3D studie for.. what was it? £2500 ? Something like that. I copied it, played with it - and found that I didn't want to spend the time learning it. Then I deleted it. I don't have the possibility to pay £2500 at the age of 16 (when I copied it, some 4 years ago). I still don't have the possibility to pay that kind of sums.
Also, I cannot afford to buy every magazine I want in the store. I cannot afford to buy two dozens PC magazines. I buy a couple a month and read a lot of articles on the web - for free.
Of course, we have a problem if we remove copyright law altogether. We would then face the problem of an author writing a book - releasing it - and two days later another bookprinting-shop would release the same book, but cheaper - and they would earn money.. Then the author would lose money. The books would be available in the local store, but he wouldn't get royalties.
If, on the other hand, someone typed in the entire book, and posted it to a newsgroup. It would still be a breach of copyright, but you wouldn't get it in the store. You would have to spend lots of money on paper printing the book - and you wouldn't get a nice cover on it. And - nobody would earn money on you copying it.
The later, imho, should be allowed. If nobody earns actual money on the copying - it should be allowed. Specifically - by law.
.. in my opinion.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
You and a LOT of other slashdot posters has a LOT to learn. Have you ever heard of something called dyslexia (or whatever way its spelled) ??
You (and other stupid assholes) are showing a level of attitude about spelling that makes me sick. Personally I just forget a letter now and then, and mispell a word from time to time - but I know people who proofread their material several times, but they've still got so many errors in their writings that you just have to laugh.
But correcting them.. is WRONG. Correcting people all the time is the same as harrassing them. Not everyone spells perfectly. Lots of people have *severe* problems spelling correclty.
So please, AC. and others -shut the fuck up about spelling errors.
I'm sick and tired of it.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
It was probably moderated up because his opinions reflect most peoples opinions. Free speech is more important than a few french people feeling that their Good Moral has been stepped upon.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Now add to that the fact that many of those who buy Nazi regalia are neo-Nazi sympathizers, and you wind up with an even better reason for a rational person in France to fear those symbols.
Even though I don't like neo-nazism, or nazism - I won't try to censor it. True free speech doesn't limit hate-speech. If you start saying that "that and that should not be legal to talk about" - then its no longer freedom of speech. Yes, the nazis resisted freedom of speech - but we're just as bad, if we refuse them their *RIGHT* to speak about their opinion.
The only way to beat nazism (if that is what we want, that is at least what I want), is to argue against it. You have to *argue* against those who believe in it, and *convince* them that they are wrong. Trust me, its possible, I've managed it once.:) At least I think I managed.
I used to discuss with a neo-nazi at a BBS I ran. He was a revisionist, and a neo-nazi. Well, after a couple of years of constant arguments, and after I had shut down my BBS and moved from where I lived to Oslo (where I now reside and study) - I met this guy. He was no longer a nazi. He didn't believe in it anymore. I do think I had something to do with it, but he never admitted *that*:)
But, its possible to reform hardcore nazis. They just need to hear the truth. If you try to supress their opinion, they believe more and more in "Big Brother" who tries to hide the one Truth that they've discovered. The only way to convince them if is they're allowed an open argument - without shouting from people - like "Goto hell, you nazi bastard". That way - you never win. You'll have to argue, calmly - and refute each of their arguments, again and again (because they WILL repeat them, clining to their beliefs, for al ong time).
.. Point is - censorship is NOT the way to go. Free speech - even for nazis and other unpopular opinions - is the only way.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Hmf. The keys are out. I don't see why not someone sits down, and starts hacking up a decent open-source DVD-player for Linux. If someone hacks up a client with everything except the keys, and starts distributing it -- that can't be illegal, can it?
And since we all have got the keys somewhere, or may retrieve them from somewhere, that would be all we need. Then we have a fully functional open sourced DVD player.
Right?
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Rumors say that Opera is 100% CSS-1 compliant, but I cannot guarantee it. If it is, then Jeffrey is wrong when he says that its only two browsers that will be CSS-1 compliant in a couple of months time.
There is already one.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
I rember reading a few weeks back that either Norway or Sweden has just passed a law that makes spamming legal.
Not norway! It was sweden!:) Don't blame US for those stupid swedes.;)
Oh, and the swedish parliament is really having a tough time nowadays. People are subscribing them to all sorts of mailinglist, sending 'unsubscribe' messages to different spam-lists for them, and doing them all sorts of favors.:) Not to mention all the mailbombs sent their way.
In short, I think the swedish parliament will remove that "its ok to spam" paragraph pretty damn soon.:)
(oh, and if you want to help bomb them from here, to h*** and back, look up the swedish parliament, find some email addresses and.. well, you know what to do:)
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Well, your argument is well if its targeteted to the person you answer.
But, to answer you, with my opinions; 1. Forced disclosure is ok. What other way to track down spammers?;)
2. They cannot ask them to remove it. When posting it to slashdot, well, it would be the same as leaving flyers all over the city. It would be impossible to remove them. It would be the same as dropping flyers down by airplanes. Impossible to remove.
3. It is impossible, because "the system works that way". If you dropped 1 million copies of some of your work, over a city -- it would be impossible for you to remove.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
I didn't even notice, until after I'd done it. I read your message, took my bottle of pepsi, and quenched my thirst.
Then, I reread your message.. and suddenly it striked me that I had read your message and done (nearly) what it told me (Drink something with caffeeine!:)
yikes!
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
The person who has his account stolen is the one who should be held liable - by the ISP - for gross negligence. He got his account stolen - he is the negligent one. Put the blame where it belongs.
example 2
The ISP should not ble held responsible by authorities. But, we've got some wonderful folks at MAPS..:) They make sure that ISP's install spamfilters. Or their mailservers get blocked.
-- "Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Slashdot Mirror
> Ethernet on all devices would be cool, indeed,
> but who the heck has ethernet at home?
Actually I cannot think of any of my friends that doesn't have it. Even my *father* has installed ethernet at his home. And he is NOT a computer geek.
--
Eyh! The ewoks are CUTE. The gungans on the other hand.. I hate the creatures. But the ewoks? Don't diss the ewoks man! They rawk! :D
*starting the flamewar of the day*
--
The gas tax is approximately $.45 a gallon!!!
.. hmm.. 8 times your tax on gas.
Funny. In norway they're about $1 a litre. That is
Blah. You've got nothing to complain about, little complainer.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
To: info@peta-online.org
To: webmaster@peta-online.org
Kudos to you, peta.com - for winning this "landmark case".
Kudos to you, for restricting free speech.
I am very disapointed in your organisation - fighting for animal liberation.
Freedom is also a liberation - which you now has restricted. Trademarks are a
limitation to freedom. And - not only that - limiting humor is a limitation to
freedom. You fight for freedom for animals, but forget the animal you yourself
are - namely human beeings.
I felt discusted when I heard about you winning the case. Discusted, that
people actually WANT to limit freedom of speech. Discusted, that people
actually WANT to limit humor.
I have a lot of sympathy for your norwegian counterpart - that is "NOAH". I
now know that I do NOT have ANY sympathy WHATSOEVER for NOAH's american
counterpart - namely YOU - peta.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Who cares if Signal 9 gets a lot of Karma? Do you have a problem with it?
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Well, "noise" when the disk is accessed is OK. But, after reading that article, I checked WTF was making all that NOISE coming from my computer. It was not the powersupply, it was not the CPU fan. Hmm.. COULD it be the disks? Ohyes. THey produce a high-pitched 'whine' all the time - by just beeing powered up. One thing is certain, I'm going to throw out that disk next week :)
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
I thought the same, until I actually read the referred article. :) This is an idea about a free-speech-network, a'la FreeNet. Not a OTP system.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
ping!
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Who cares? :-)
Seriously - I think KDE compiles under Solaris. (I'm not certain though).
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
I really really hope the KDE folks know what they are doing. Konqueror .. and security .. I'm sure its secure as of now. As long as it only SHOWS things as they are. I just hope they're intelligent enough to *never ever* allow scripting in Konqueror. When it comes to luser-friendlyness, linux is still behind windows. And it will always be. They *must not* go into the same trap as MS has done, and include scripting capabilities - even though it may be tempting.
Konqueror is very modular, if I've understood it correctly. That means its possible to write extensions (easily). *That* make me worry. What if someone gets this great idea of showing emails, and executing the javascript included in them? What when Linux get visualbasic script support - what happens when some idiot thinks "Hey! What a great idea! Email reader with js and vbs execution support! It's User Friendly!"(bad pun intended).
As long as linux programmers avoid these pitfalls, we should all be safe.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Ouch. That hurt. I've been promoting Debian for a long time. If they really go through with this .. well, then *that* is the end of me liking debian.
:-)
.. That means .. removing netscape? (Where is the current alternative? Mozilla? is mozilla free enough?). There are.. tons. . of applications in non-free that is important for me, and others. It won't stay that way forever, but removing non-free *now* is a bad thing. Doing it in maybe 2 years time - THAT would be ok. But, don't remove it before we've got tools to replace it.
f*ck. I love apt. I love debian as a distribution. I've even come to love the installationsystem
But, removing non-free? Uh.. that means.. removing ssh (from non-us) ? (OK, openssh exists).
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
I don't know the meaning of "tangible assets". (My native language is not english).
But, if you're saying what I *think* you are saying - that is - you're saying that its theft even when nobody actually LOSES anything - as long as the duplicator *earns* something on it - its theft.
I agree with you that making actual profit or getting your own expenses covered - in duplicating it - then you should be guilty of something.
But, if you copy it for your own personal use - and give it away to others without incurring ANY form of cost to the ones you're giving it away to (not getting any of your own expenses covered) - then it should not be illegal.
I know it *is* illegal now. But I think that is Wrong.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
OK, I see that you don't respect people with dyslexia (or whatever its called in english). Its always reassuring to know that the world is still filled with nitpickers who don't want to show any form of respect for people with reading/writing problems.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
First of all - I want to cheer Penthouse for doing things The Right Way.
.. what was it? £2500 ? Something like that. I copied it, played with it - and found that I didn't want to spend the time learning it. Then I deleted it. I don't have the possibility to pay £2500 at the age of 16 (when I copied it, some 4 years ago). I still don't have the possibility to pay that kind of sums.
They've uncovered the "badguy" - and gone after HIM instead of the carriers (i.e. the newsservers). They've gone after the person who abused their services - and not some innocent common carrier.
Their first point is - good. Even though I think we should rethink patents, copyrights and tradesecrets - more about that later.
Their second point on the other hand. The one about minors. Sure, it gives them a 'plus' in the almanac of christian puritans - but seriously - do you think they care? I don't.
And, the comparison between a bookstore is just stupid. The owner of a bookstore has a book less to sell - if its stolen. He has PAID for THAT book. Penthouse doesn't lose anything if someone copies their picture. Its copied - not lost. You cannot call it theft, when you still have your copy intact. Its duplicated, not removed. If it had been theft - this Muad'Dib would have to break into penthouse and steal their master copies. That DID NOT HAPPEN.
More about the first point - which I promised to rant more about.
The more I read about these cases of copying - the more I realize that we need to rethink the entire issue of copyright / patent / tradesecret. In this world, its *extremely* easy to make a copy. I've pirated music, I've pirated games - and I don't feel bad about it. I wouldn't have bought any of it - simply because I would have no way to afford everything I want.
I buy the things I can afford. But what I cannot afford to buy - I copy. I never had any possibility of buying Autodesk 3D studie for
Also, I cannot afford to buy every magazine I want in the store. I cannot afford to buy two dozens PC magazines. I buy a couple a month and read a lot of articles on the web - for free.
Of course, we have a problem if we remove copyright law altogether. We would then face the problem of an author writing a book - releasing it - and two days later another bookprinting-shop would release the same book, but cheaper - and they would earn money.. Then the author would lose money. The books would be available in the local store, but he wouldn't get royalties.
If, on the other hand, someone typed in the entire book, and posted it to a newsgroup. It would still be a breach of copyright, but you wouldn't get it in the store. You would have to spend lots of money on paper printing the book - and you wouldn't get a nice cover on it. And - nobody would earn money on you copying it.
The later, imho, should be allowed. If nobody earns actual money on the copying - it should be allowed. Specifically - by law.
.. in my opinion.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Hey idiot.
.. is WRONG. Correcting people all the time is the same as harrassing them. Not everyone spells perfectly. Lots of people have *severe* problems spelling correclty.
You and a LOT of other slashdot posters has a LOT to learn. Have you ever heard of something called dyslexia (or whatever way its spelled) ??
You (and other stupid assholes) are showing a level of attitude about spelling that makes me sick. Personally I just forget a letter now and then, and mispell a word from time to time - but I know people who proofread their material several times, but they've still got so many errors in their writings that you just have to laugh.
But correcting them
So please, AC. and others -shut the fuck up about spelling errors.
I'm sick and tired of it.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
It was probably moderated up because his opinions reflect most peoples opinions. Free speech is more important than a few french people feeling that their Good Moral has been stepped upon.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Now add to that the fact that many of those who buy Nazi regalia are neo-Nazi sympathizers, and you wind up with an even better reason for a rational person in France to fear those symbols.
:) At least I think I managed.
:)
Even though I don't like neo-nazism, or nazism - I won't try to censor it. True free speech doesn't limit hate-speech. If you start saying that "that and that should not be legal to talk about" - then its no longer freedom of speech. Yes, the nazis resisted freedom of speech - but we're just as bad, if we refuse them their *RIGHT* to speak about their opinion.
The only way to beat nazism (if that is what we want, that is at least what I want), is to argue against it. You have to *argue* against those who believe in it, and *convince* them that they are wrong. Trust me, its possible, I've managed it once.
I used to discuss with a neo-nazi at a BBS I ran. He was a revisionist, and a neo-nazi. Well, after a couple of years of constant arguments, and after I had shut down my BBS and moved from where I lived to Oslo (where I now reside and study) - I met this guy. He was no longer a nazi. He didn't believe in it anymore. I do think I had something to do with it, but he never admitted *that*
But, its possible to reform hardcore nazis. They just need to hear the truth. If you try to supress their opinion, they believe more and more in "Big Brother" who tries to hide the one Truth that they've discovered. The only way to convince them if is they're allowed an open argument - without shouting from people - like "Goto hell, you nazi bastard". That way - you never win. You'll have to argue, calmly - and refute each of their arguments, again and again (because they WILL repeat them, clining to their beliefs, for al ong time).
.. Point is - censorship is NOT the way to go. Free speech - even for nazis and other unpopular opinions - is the only way.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Hmf. The keys are out. I don't see why not someone sits down, and starts hacking up a decent open-source DVD-player for Linux. If someone hacks up a client with everything except the keys, and starts distributing it -- that can't be illegal, can it?
And since we all have got the keys somewhere, or may retrieve them from somewhere, that would be all we need. Then we have a fully functional open sourced DVD player.
Right?
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Rumors say that Opera is 100% CSS-1 compliant, but I cannot guarantee it. If it is, then Jeffrey is wrong when he says that its only two browsers that will be CSS-1 compliant in a couple of months time.
There is already one.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
I rember reading a few weeks back that either Norway or Sweden has just passed a law that makes spamming legal.
:) Don't blame US for those stupid swedes. ;)
:) Not to mention all the mailbombs sent their way.
:)
.. well, you know what to do :)
Not norway! It was sweden!
Oh, and the swedish parliament is really having a tough time nowadays. People are subscribing them to all sorts of mailinglist, sending 'unsubscribe' messages to different spam-lists for them, and doing them all sorts of favors.
In short, I think the swedish parliament will remove that "its ok to spam" paragraph pretty damn soon.
(oh, and if you want to help bomb them from here, to h*** and back, look up the swedish parliament, find some email addresses and
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
By any means necessary, short of tactical nukes.
.. Hmf. someone should whip up a tactical nuke and end this shit.
:-)
Tactical nukes.. Hmm.. I think that would get rid of the problem permanently
.. or maybe not.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
Well, your argument is well if its targeteted to the person you answer.
;)
But, to answer you, with my opinions;
1. Forced disclosure is ok. What other way to track down spammers?
2. They cannot ask them to remove it. When posting it to slashdot, well, it would be the same as leaving flyers all over the city. It would be impossible to remove them. It would be the same as dropping flyers down by airplanes. Impossible to remove.
3. It is impossible, because "the system works that way". If you dropped 1 million copies of some of your work, over a city -- it would be impossible for you to remove.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
What consequenses will this have?
I hope we will be able to point to "prior art" and get the patent invalidated. Or this may be a major setback...
When did microsoft apply for the patent? Before or after apt existed?
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
That was a strange experience.
I didn't even notice, until after I'd done it. I read your message, took my bottle of pepsi, and quenched my thirst.
Then, I reread your message.. and suddenly it striked me that I had read your message and done (nearly) what it told me (Drink something with caffeeine!:)
yikes!
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
example 1
.. :) They make sure that ISP's install spamfilters. Or their mailservers get blocked.
The person who has his account stolen is the one who should be held liable - by the ISP - for gross negligence. He got his account stolen - he is the negligent one. Put the blame where it belongs.
example 2
The ISP should not ble held responsible by authorities. But, we've got some wonderful folks at MAPS
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet