To explain it, I too have an experience of the "hacker" culture, to me it is not something I could or would try to organize or represent the whole of, but it does have something to do with independence, and independent personal power, for computer skills feel like power to those that see the power of procedural logic first hand, as "hackers" do. I guess I don't really like the name "hacker culture" idea too much anyway, but that term's extension is definately the same culture I learned computers within. I don't want to define it myself, but I don't like the idea ESR always uses about the culture. It's like some feudal pissing contest. Bullshit. That's what Microsoft won. That's bullshit. The cool stuff happens when they are all working together. There was Microsoft telling Apple "make Mac OS for Intel! it's cool!". That's the culture. It's cool, go for it. There is so much cool stuff, you don't worry, there is so much increasing network return that cooperating with your competitor gives you guys something such a higher factor more useful that suddenly promiscuous partnerships with competitors makes sense, and happens.
Hacker culture does respect a computer mastery, a guruness, but it's not a pissing contest... it's just that any discovery of Respectable Persons creates an opportunity for the pissers.
This is definatly not flamerbait. It's -1 Offtopic. Thank you.
he talks about if you use this brand you are giving a gang sign, but don't think you are in the gang till your peers tell you your da coolist.
yeah there is a hacker culture and ESR comes across as one of it's hoary hanger on embrace and embicile.
this isn't coming off as a rant is it? I mean, I'm a hacker, I wouldn't want to lose my standing by upsetting my peers. What is the status quo, I need to be with that.
Over the years ESR has gone from maintaining a funny and slightly correct jargon file to creating a mythos of hackers so complete and fucking rigid it's like a god damned GURPS module.
is an elitist asshole. Every time I agree with him I feel dirty.
God I hate it when some marginalized group of people gets all excited... hey, maybe we can be the new elite and treat them like they treated us... yes, JUSTICE!
Jesus: the noble "hacker" term has to be applied by others. Uh, no, you can apply it to yourself after spending time alone with your computer, in the dark, for a long time.
But ESR thinks is a social thing. Hacker culture.
You know the hacker's I like (I are one!), the one's that said, to hell with needing approval, fuck it all I'll like what I want, Nih!
Like all writers of dictionaries, ESR believes he commands the language for having recorded it passably well.
I think this is like saying that if I live in the woods I'm freer then if I live in a house with a fenced yard. I can go in any direction I want... I am not 'forced' to go to the door or unlock my gate. I'm free!!!
But then, life is complicated, and the result of having no house and no fence is that, for example, I have no place to put my stuff. I'm not really very free to have stuff, and if I do have a VCR in the woods it's easily stolen. You can think that you are more free. There is a semantic argument and a definition of free where you will be "correct", but in the real world, safety measure do INCREASE freedom if they are the right measure (like have a lockable shelter).
The GPL is a lockable shelter. And yet unlockable. Beautiful.
oh yes, and the reason given was Microsoft Security. He gave to much info about where the picture was taken. They dont' want people at that loading dock taking the G5's they leave lying about.
All that matters is reality. Rights on a piece of paper mean nothing. We have the right to free speech... but not when it comes to the companies, which is how we make our living, how we eat and feed our children? Then we do not have the right to free speech. You can talk about principles, but if you are not able to speak freely, you don't have free speech. If you live in a fire-proof house and it's on fire, it's not fire-proof.
Maybe that's the way you or you or you want it to be, but don't tell me it's "free speech". So this -is- a free speech issue, we don't have free speech so don't fool yourself.
Same thing with democracy. People died fighting to have the right to vote. Once every couple years. For a limited selection of people. Meanwhile we spend 40-100 hours a week somewhere we have no democracy. Do we "live" in a democracy? Well, one layer of the onion is a democracy... but 8 hours a day there is no democracy. Again, maybe you don't want a democracy, I'm actually open to that. There are arguments against democracies.
But I'm saying you call a spade a spade, and the de facto reality is the only reality. If you can't speak freely, you don't have free speech, and the Constitution nor anything else has guarenteed you free speech.
PS: I just had a former colleague go work for Microsoft and he said many in the team he is going to use Macs... why not!? MS marketing and the technical staff's policies are two very different beasts.
PPS: and for all you neocon's that might think I'm just whining... no, I live up to my ideal. I'm not being oppressed, I have safe kept my right to free speech (though I'm sure there are nearby limits), and when I make comments like the above, I'm talking statistically what's possible in this culture, what goes on in reality, not in some idealized sense where you can "have" rights you can't exercise.
but I'd have to call bullshit on that. If I was four miles off road across granite after the fall of man with nothing but my Hummer and 500 gallons of gas stashed in a cave near old route 49, as Hummer would be the best way to use energy. It could pull lumber back to my camp.
First, no offense taken, my comments refer to the context in which he said
So, please take this as kindly as possible when I say: Go fuck yourself.
The funny thing here is that I am volunteering to take care of my own patches and I am personally insulted that my offer is being ignored.
My point is that they made it not a professional environment telling him the following in the email to which he replies. It said:
well, when you graduate and (presumably) find a real job, you'll have a chance to get an idea of where time goes.
that's not professional. If someone says that to you, they have already said working on XFree isn't real work. It's no profession, it's not even work, really. Secondly, I think that cussing does have a purpose in this context, which is to register the fact that he was offended by this off hand insult. Not uncommon to use when you have elitism and arrogance involved, because sometimes people have a world view that insulates them from reasonable points.
I think you are right that it can't get the conversation anywhere good, which is the important part of your point. It's flame. The bridge is burning.
But my point here is not me or what should be, but what did happen, and if you read the thread, Harold comes off much better in that thread, in spite of saying "So, please take this as kindly as possible when I say: Go fuck yourself." Context does matter. He's not disqualified.
Having said that, I'd much rather work with someone who has your attitude!:) and in fact, regarding my own behavior, I do.
PS: also, about his real job, who knows, he had just said that he goes to graduate school, works 30-40 hrs a week. The comment about time seemed to strike a nerve, it sounds like this guy is flush with commitment, he asked in the sentence before the cussed one, "By the way, how often do you have to go to the doctor's office? How often do you have to get prescriptions refiled? How often do you have to change the tubing for a medical device that is attached to you? Huh? Didn't think so." So the cussing was relative to some bozo that is being asked about repository access talking about this guys personal life, which has demands said bozo can't possibly know.
then he already has a REAL job. "Go Fuck Yourself" happens to be more professional than telling people they don't have real jobs and the time they waste waiting for you isn't that important anyway... they just have to grow up to know waiting for you is a Good Thing.
>>So, Guys like Keith Packard get kicked out, while useless deadbeats like David Wexelblat are members of the core-team. What's wrong with this picture?
I know nothing of these people prior to reading that thread, and I saw the classic from David.
After Harold responded to an insult which said that he needed to wait until he graduated and grew up in order to handle his time better, David says of Harolds reply only no one will take you seriously if you are insulting.
the serious part of this is that I suddenly think playing with 6502 is a great way to start programming for real, machines still work more or less the same way just with more magic addresses that control better hardware. The apple//e emulators are perfectly sufficient for this. And come on, wouldn't we be better off if all programmers had the experience of programming by entering numbers directly into the Apple "monitor"?
I know this Microsoft Sycophant (Microphant) that claims that RedHat Enterprise servers are violating the GPL. I believe this has been cleared up, but this is my mini-askslashdot. Does anybody know the details of GPL compliance on these pricey high end RedHat distributions?
because Microsoft has an extra agreement, which they got instead of heavy penalties they would otherwise have to get for violating antitrust law. These extra requirements above and beyond normal business procedure are because of THEIR action and are specifically a "lighter" sentence. It's the easy way out, but it's still too hard?
If Sun is stupid enough to get caught violating the law and forced into such a settlement, only then should you bother to attack Sun for doing likewise.
Sun, for all it's many faults, for all it's death wish death spiral I think it's now engaged in... they are great at interoperability and have never tried to break interoperability. If Microsoft followed the same philosophy their domination of the market alone would not have gotten them into trouble.
Microsoft is, and it's because they have been violating antitrust law.
Your point is like being under house arrest and pointing to your neighber "but he doesn't have to wear the ankle beacon, he get's to leave -his- house".
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To explain it, I too have an experience of the "hacker" culture, to me it is not something I could or would try to organize or represent the whole of, but it does have something to do with independence, and independent personal power, for computer skills feel like power to those that see the power of procedural logic first hand, as "hackers" do. I guess I don't really like the name "hacker culture" idea too much anyway, but that term's extension is definately the same culture I learned computers within. I don't want to define it myself, but I don't like the idea ESR always uses about the culture. It's like some feudal pissing contest. Bullshit. That's what Microsoft won. That's bullshit. The cool stuff happens when they are all working together. There was Microsoft telling Apple "make Mac OS for Intel! it's cool!". That's the culture. It's cool, go for it. There is so much cool stuff, you don't worry, there is so much increasing network return that cooperating with your competitor gives you guys something such a higher factor more useful that suddenly promiscuous partnerships with competitors makes sense, and happens.
Hacker culture does respect a computer mastery, a guruness, but it's not a pissing contest... it's just that any discovery of Respectable Persons creates an opportunity for the pissers.
This is definatly not flamerbait. It's -1 Offtopic. Thank you.
WKRP?
if he doesn't know, how would he know.
besides, you enjoyed it didn't you?
he talks about if you use this brand you are giving a gang sign, but don't think you are in the gang till your peers tell you your da coolist.
yeah there is a hacker culture and ESR comes across as one of it's hoary hanger on embrace and embicile.
this isn't coming off as a rant is it? I mean, I'm a hacker, I wouldn't want to lose my standing by upsetting my peers. What is the status quo, I need to be with that.
Over the years ESR has gone from maintaining a funny and slightly correct jargon file to creating a mythos of hackers so complete and fucking rigid it's like a god damned GURPS module.
Hey... I know, how about a bison logo!?
is an elitist asshole. Every time I agree with him I feel dirty.
God I hate it when some marginalized group of people gets all excited... hey, maybe we can be the new elite and treat them like they treated us... yes, JUSTICE!
Jesus: the noble "hacker" term has to be applied by others. Uh, no, you can apply it to yourself after spending time alone with your computer, in the dark, for a long time.
But ESR thinks is a social thing. Hacker culture.
You know the hacker's I like (I are one!), the one's that said, to hell with needing approval, fuck it all I'll like what I want, Nih!
Like all writers of dictionaries, ESR believes he commands the language for having recorded it passably well.
fneck!
I think this is like saying that if I live in the woods I'm freer then if I live in a house with a fenced yard. I can go in any direction I want... I am not 'forced' to go to the door or unlock my gate. I'm free!!!
But then, life is complicated, and the result of having no house and no fence is that, for example, I have no place to put my stuff. I'm not really very free to have stuff, and if I do have a VCR in the woods it's easily stolen. You can think that you are more free. There is a semantic argument and a definition of free where you will be "correct", but in the real world, safety measure do INCREASE freedom if they are the right measure (like have a lockable shelter).
The GPL is a lockable shelter. And yet unlockable. Beautiful.
oh yes, and the reason given was Microsoft Security. He gave to much info about where the picture was taken. They dont' want people at that loading dock taking the G5's they leave lying about.
then I think you didn't read the post. He's just saying "look, new toys!!!!"
it's not anti-microsoft in the least.
All that matters is reality. Rights on a piece of paper mean nothing. We have the right to free speech... but not when it comes to the companies, which is how we make our living, how we eat and feed our children? Then we do not have the right to free speech. You can talk about principles, but if you are not able to speak freely, you don't have free speech. If you live in a fire-proof house and it's on fire, it's not fire-proof.
Maybe that's the way you or you or you want it to be, but don't tell me it's "free speech". So this -is- a free speech issue, we don't have free speech so don't fool yourself.
Same thing with democracy. People died fighting to have the right to vote. Once every couple years. For a limited selection of people. Meanwhile we spend 40-100 hours a week somewhere we have no democracy. Do we "live" in a democracy? Well, one layer of the onion is a democracy... but 8 hours a day there is no democracy. Again, maybe you don't want a democracy, I'm actually open to that. There are arguments against democracies.
But I'm saying you call a spade a spade, and the de facto reality is the only reality. If you can't speak freely, you don't have free speech, and the Constitution nor anything else has guarenteed you free speech.
PS: I just had a former colleague go work for Microsoft and he said many in the team he is going to use Macs... why not!? MS marketing and the technical staff's policies are two very different beasts.
PPS: and for all you neocon's that might think I'm just whining... no, I live up to my ideal. I'm not being oppressed, I have safe kept my right to free speech (though I'm sure there are nearby limits), and when I make comments like the above, I'm talking statistically what's possible in this culture, what goes on in reality, not in some idealized sense where you can "have" rights you can't exercise.
but I'd have to call bullshit on that. If I was four miles off road across granite after the fall of man with nothing but my Hummer and 500 gallons of gas stashed in a cave near old route 49, as Hummer would be the best way to use energy. It could pull lumber back to my camp.
First, no offense taken, my comments refer to the context in which he said
:) and in fact, regarding my own behavior, I do.
So, please take this as kindly as possible when I say: Go fuck yourself.
The funny thing here is that I am volunteering to take care of my own patches and I am personally insulted that my offer is being ignored.
My point is that they made it not a professional environment telling him the following in the email to which he replies. It said:
well, when you graduate and (presumably) find a real job, you'll have
a chance to get an idea of where time goes.
that's not professional. If someone says that to you, they have already said working on XFree isn't real work. It's no profession, it's not even work, really. Secondly, I think that cussing does have a purpose in this context, which is to register the fact that he was offended by this off hand insult. Not uncommon to use when you have elitism and arrogance involved, because sometimes people have a world view that insulates them from reasonable points.
I think you are right that it can't get the conversation anywhere good, which is the important part of your point. It's flame. The bridge is burning.
But my point here is not me or what should be, but what did happen, and if you read the thread, Harold comes off much better in that thread, in spite of saying "So, please take this as kindly as possible when I say: Go fuck yourself." Context does matter. He's not disqualified.
Having said that, I'd much rather work with someone who has your attitude!
PS: also, about his real job, who knows, he had just said that he goes to graduate school, works 30-40 hrs a week. The comment about time seemed to strike a nerve, it sounds like this guy is flush with commitment, he asked in the sentence before the cussed one, "By the way, how often do you have to go to the doctor's office? How often do you have to get prescriptions refiled? How often do you have to change the tubing for a medical device that is attached to you? Huh? Didn't think so." So the cussing was relative to some bozo that is being asked about repository access talking about this guys personal life, which has demands said bozo can't possibly know.
then he already has a REAL job. "Go Fuck Yourself" happens to be more professional than telling people they don't have real jobs and the time they waste waiting for you isn't that important anyway... they just have to grow up to know waiting for you is a Good Thing.
>>So, Guys like Keith Packard get kicked out, while useless deadbeats like David Wexelblat are members of the core-team. What's wrong with this picture?
is it David Wexelblat?
I know nothing of these people prior to reading that thread, and I saw the classic from David.
After Harold responded to an insult which said that he needed to wait until he graduated and grew up in order to handle his time better, David says of Harolds reply only no one will take you seriously if you are insulting.
typical symptom of a power trip.
I started programming in Apple Basic. Within six months it was 6502. Pointers made perfect sense to me. I am baffled why people find them confusing.
Of course there are difficulties handling pointers, but mostly because we use so many of them... conceptually it's not difficult.
PS: You had 256 whole bytes of ram? why back in my day... oh no wait, you've got me beat.
yes, funny troll, exactly. See, I can kid the applies, because I were one once. Not a macinhead. Apple //e, it was even deeper.
IBM PC piece of shit.
the serious part of this is that I suddenly think playing with 6502 is a great way to start programming for real, machines still work more or less the same way just with more magic addresses that control better hardware. The apple //e emulators are perfectly sufficient for this. And come on, wouldn't we be better off if all programmers had the experience of programming by entering numbers directly into the Apple "monitor"?
>>Those fortunate enough to have an Apple Store near them were in for a treat last night
And to all 12 of you I say, "Congratulations!!!"
when can you get to San Francisco?
that is... my point is unsupported.
Surely the distro providers have to have testing labs. If not... it's shocking how well RH installs these days!!!
Good luck. Some day I hope you go to far.
I know this Microsoft Sycophant (Microphant) that claims that RedHat Enterprise servers are violating the GPL. I believe this has been cleared up, but this is my mini-askslashdot. Does anybody know the details of GPL compliance on these pricey high end RedHat distributions?
because Microsoft has an extra agreement, which they got instead of heavy penalties they would otherwise have to get for violating antitrust law. These extra requirements above and beyond normal business procedure are because of THEIR action and are specifically a "lighter" sentence. It's the easy way out, but it's still too hard?
If Sun is stupid enough to get caught violating the law and forced into such a settlement, only then should you bother to attack Sun for doing likewise.
Sun, for all it's many faults, for all it's death wish death spiral I think it's now engaged in... they are great at interoperability and have never tried to break interoperability. If Microsoft followed the same philosophy their domination of the market alone would not have gotten them into trouble.
Mozilla is not under a court order.
Microsoft is, and it's because they have been violating antitrust law.
Your point is like being under house arrest and pointing to your neighber "but he doesn't have to wear the ankle beacon, he get's to leave -his- house".
I'm still trying to figure out which Dewars are the Evil ones.