At our current rate of progress, we'll probably never actually send any manned ships or anything more substantial than Voyager out of the solar system (we'll destroy ourselves first).
Man, I sure hope so.
$Deity help us we figure out interstellar travel before they decide we're mature enough to spread throughout the galaxy. The council may just decide to feed this whole sector to a black hole sooner than allow the human virus, er, race, to infect the rest of the universe.
Riiiiiiight... because when I need a new tie-rod end in my truck, a shitty plastic one will be just as good as the cast metal part it's replacing.
We already have 3d printers which can print metal. It's only a matter of time before they are in the hands of many consumers.
Don't get me wrong, I'm enamored with the idea of never having to buy an actual part again myself, but I just don't see it happening anytime soon, for a number of reasons, most of which involve direct government interference into your life.
Imagine the legal nightmare that will occur the first time a 3D printed car part fails, and someone is injured or killed as a result.
I would much rather learn to use a lathe or welding equipment than a 3D printer. But it's sort of like I was a kid. Karate studios on every corner, but not a single place where I could learn to box.
Hence my feeling that pop culture is a plague upon the human race.
From reading TFA, it's obvious that this isn't a group of skilled craftspeople coming together to share ideas, equipment, and workspace, but rather an attempt to educate the proles in how this new technology can be used to make Christmas ornaments. More like "Summer College" classes for your 6th grader than a real attempt at collaboration.
The downside to this approach, at least from my point of view, is that the people who would use the equipment access to work on real projects are going to be stuck waiting in line behind 1,000 stay-at-home moms, who are laser-cutting snowflakes with their kids faces on them because they have nothing more productive to do with their time.
The sad part is, a lot of the stuff our 'throwaway society' dumps is perfectly repairable.
For example, the boss of a call center I once worked for (as the system admin) wanted me to take a 60" Visio television to the dump, because the screen stopped turning on. Instead of trashing it, I took it home, disassembled it, found the chip that had burned out, and replaced it; I managed to, for less than $10, fix a device that cost the company several hundred dollars to replace.
If you sign a non-compete agreement in most states, companies can and will hold you to that
Never thought of that... probably because I've never signed one myself.
Since so many companies in certain areas do it, it becomes effectively impossible to work in that industry without signing one. Not a problem in California, because these clauses aren't enforceable there.
So, these industries, that enforce non-comps across the board... do they even open up shop in CA?
Those companies (illegally) colluded to not poach each other's employees, or to hire them away from each other. That's different from the employees having non-compete agreements; basically it was an end-run around the fact that they couldn't hold their employees to non-compete contracts. And yes, they got their asses handed to them, rightfully. Something like that would not have happened in most other states, since in most other places employees are forced to sign those contracts as a condition for employment.
Now granted, I've only worked in a couple of states, and never signed a non-comp, but as far as I'm aware it's pretty much "at-will" employment most places, in that employment can be terminated by either party, at any time, for any reason. But again, that's based purely on my own experience.
Oil workers are not like software engineers. There's lots of software engineering jobs out there in places much more desirable than Detroit, and there's a high barrier to entry in the profession (namely, a college degree, and relevant experience).
Hey, machine shops are "high-tech" compared to, say, a bakery.
I've wondered the exact same thing. The ETs probably have a quarantine set up around our solar system to make sure we don't get out and none of them wander in.
Yea, that's pretty much my theory for why the Voyager probe keeps failing to leave the solar system; it's not that scientists have a vague definition of what counts as 'leaving the solar system,' it's just that Voyager keeps bumping into the fence.
It will also kill off the entire replacement parts industry. Cars, washing machines, fridges, etc, etc.
Riiiiiiight... because when I need a new tie-rod end in my truck, a shitty plastic one will be just as good as the cast metal part it's replacing.
In local news tonight, tragedy struck when a moron who replaced metal parts of his vehicle with 3D printed, plastic ones caused an 18-car pile up on the interstate...
Shit, I'd rather people keep making guns with 'em.
That's a big "if." Compared to much of the world, even the poor and criminal element here are helped out enormously, and yet most of them do not become winners. Haven't you heard of the cycle of poverty?
Well, the real problem is in convincing the people with power to care about the people without it.
Which usually doesn't happen without open and violent revolution.
If I had any idea what to do about it, I'd have done it already.
Because you can't run a company without workers, and there's no qualified workers in Detroit.
Like how the fracking companies had to give up on digging for oil in the Dakotas, because there weren't any qualified workers there, right?
Oh, wait, that's not what happened - the fracking companies opened shop, and workers poured into the area, so many of them that housing costs became unsustainable.
Apparently, if you build it, they really will come.
Also, your contention about being "individual-unfriendly" is bogus.
As a midwesterner who, over the decades, has seen countless people move here from California, most of them stating their reasoning being related to taxation and lack of property rights out there, I'm going to disagree based on personal experience.
If you work at some company in a town that's dominated by a particular industry (in a non-CA state), you may find yourself unable to get another job if you want to or need to leave your job for some reason, because all those companies are competitors. In California, this isn't the case; if you work company A and their competitor company B offers you a better deal, you can go to work there.
Uh, you do know that slavery and indentured servitude are illegal, right? Going to a different company because you got a better offer has nothing to do with the state you live in.
But wait; wasn't it just last week that a bunch of Silicon Valley companies got their asses handed to them by the courts for colluding on non-hiring agreements?
Isn't that pretty much the complete opposite of the picture you're trying to paint here?
> My case: the root issue isn't fixable. With a collective attitude like that, you're probably right. We, as a nation, need a sea change from "selfish assholism" to "helping each other out, because if we all win, we're all winners."
I think you're both right.
The root problem simply isn't fixable. As you say, the nation needs a sea change, but that's about as likely as Vulcans visiting us and establishing first contact next week.
Sometimes I wonder if we haven't been invited into the galactic community because we're so damn unfixable.
Not a 'criminal', simply a 'traitor' - a traitor can have good motives (good enough for him), but we-all used to shoot a lot of 'em.
Question for the "Snowden is a traitor" camp:
Upon what evidence do you make the claim that Edward Snowden either gave and and comfort to enemies of the American People, or declared war on the same?
'I also think the federal government should be offering people in the U.S. some money and land in Detroit if they'll move there,'
Yeah, because the only thing keeping people out of Detroit now is high land prices!
Land and money, not money for land.
Give me a small to medium sized machine shop, and the money to pay for startup costs, I'll have 20 - 50 people working full time by the end of the month. Probably sooner.
Please, do tell us how the region of Detroit is going to attract money, thereby lifting the longterm level of wealth, when your plan is to just poor some money into it for a couple of year.
Assuming you went to school there, I'd drop some serious bucks on increasing the quality of education, specifically in the 'spelling and grammar' arenas. Sheesh.
Detroit got poor because they were no longer attracting money via the car industry. Tell us how your plan deals with the source of the problems, not the symptoms of their results.
"Became" poor, not "got."
Despite an obvious paucity of English education, you already named the solution: Bring the manufacturing jobs back. Really, is there any reason Ford makes car parts in Mexico, other than to help a small handful of people secure shit-tons of personal wealth? It's not like outsourcing made cars any cheaper.
But hey, it doesn't have to be cars, they could become a mecca of firearms manufacturing, or drone production, or any of a million possible industries that employ both low- and high-skill workers. You just have to fucking try, instead of writing millions of people off because you don't want to be bothered with how shitty a situation they happen to be in at the moment.
If you can't get the people already there to be productive import them!
The question is, has anyone tried? Or is this one of those "searching for unicorns" situations, like when Microsoft begs Uncle Sam for more H1B visa workers, claiming they can't find any Americans qualified and willing to do the work?
Personally I say let it die, scrape the ruins into a big ditch and make it the dump for the rest of the US. That would be an improvement.
Fine for you.
I like to fix things, and I don't like to give up. Call it a quirk.
He deserves his right to speak freely without fear of government retribution.
He deserves his right to a fair and speedy trial, by a jury of his peers.
He deserves his right to face his accusers, the accusations they make, and the evidence being presented against him.
He deserves his right (and duty) to out traitors to the American People, so they may be tried for their crimes as well.
Unfortunately, the government authorized by the Constitution doesn't seem to agree with anything the aforementioned document says, so neither Snowden, nor the traitors, nor any of the rest of us will be getting what he/they/we deserve.
give the existing population work (instead of just importing more people), and give them the opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty.
So I like the idea but it's kind of a chicken vs egg thing.
High tech companies need HIGHLY skilled workers. Most of the unemployed autoworkers in Detroit are not highly skilled.
Why does it have to be "high tech companies" and "HIGHLY skilled workers?" Why can't we, as a nation, demand that our government stop allowing corporations to outsource our jobs to indentured servants in other countries?
Hell, if I had the capital, do you know what business I know I could start and run successfully in Detroit? A firearms manufacturing plant - nobody needs a degree to be a machinist or forklift operator, plus it's not like there'd be a shortage of customers.
Would I prefer to start my own car company? Sure as hell I would, but thanks to legislation like NAFTA, there's no way I'd be able to compete with the multi-billion dollar car companies who cut costs by farming work out to the Chinese and Mexicans.
Because the people left in Detroit are trapped in a cycle of poverty, mostly with no real prospects due to lack of education(or they'd have moved out to someplace that would pay for their skills)? Every city has that problem, it's just usually bolstered by a more robust economy to help pull people out. The lack of employable people keeps employers away. The lack of employers keeps people from training for jobs they could have. And all that remains is a sense of desperation and crime.
I think the crime is more of a deterrent to rebirth than lack of skilled and educated workers - you don't have to be that smart or learned to be a 'process handler' in a manufacturing setting. Of course, to bring manufacturing back to Detroit would mean that our government would have to modify or cancel a lot of those "free trade agreements" that our 'leaders' have, personally, profited from enacting.
Detroit isn't dying because the people living there suddenly decided being criminals was better than working; Detroit is dying because all the 'good jobs' people used to be able to get there have been exported to China and Mexico. We won't be able to fix anything until we fix the root issue first.
Slashdot Mirror
At our current rate of progress, we'll probably never actually send any manned ships or anything more substantial than Voyager out of the solar system (we'll destroy ourselves first).
Man, I sure hope so.
$Deity help us we figure out interstellar travel before they decide we're mature enough to spread throughout the galaxy. The council may just decide to feed this whole sector to a black hole sooner than allow the human virus, er, race, to infect the rest of the universe.
Riiiiiiight... because when I need a new tie-rod end in my truck, a shitty plastic one will be just as good as the cast metal part it's replacing.
We already have 3d printers which can print metal. It's only a matter of time before they are in the hands of many consumers.
Don't get me wrong, I'm enamored with the idea of never having to buy an actual part again myself, but I just don't see it happening anytime soon, for a number of reasons, most of which involve direct government interference into your life.
Imagine the legal nightmare that will occur the first time a 3D printed car part fails, and someone is injured or killed as a result.
I would much rather learn to use a lathe or welding equipment than a 3D printer. But it's sort of like I was a kid. Karate studios on every corner, but not a single place where I could learn to box.
Hence my feeling that pop culture is a plague upon the human race.
Sweep the leg.
He has a point.
From reading TFA, it's obvious that this isn't a group of skilled craftspeople coming together to share ideas, equipment, and workspace, but rather an attempt to educate the proles in how this new technology can be used to make Christmas ornaments. More like "Summer College" classes for your 6th grader than a real attempt at collaboration.
The downside to this approach, at least from my point of view, is that the people who would use the equipment access to work on real projects are going to be stuck waiting in line behind 1,000 stay-at-home moms, who are laser-cutting snowflakes with their kids faces on them because they have nothing more productive to do with their time.
The sad part is, a lot of the stuff our 'throwaway society' dumps is perfectly repairable.
For example, the boss of a call center I once worked for (as the system admin) wanted me to take a 60" Visio television to the dump, because the screen stopped turning on. Instead of trashing it, I took it home, disassembled it, found the chip that had burned out, and replaced it; I managed to, for less than $10, fix a device that cost the company several hundred dollars to replace.
It boggles the mind.
Dude, you can get a drill press for, like, 50 bucks at Harbor Freight.
If you sign a non-compete agreement in most states, companies can and will hold you to that
Never thought of that... probably because I've never signed one myself.
Since so many companies in certain areas do it, it becomes effectively impossible to work in that industry without signing one. Not a problem in California, because these clauses aren't enforceable there.
So, these industries, that enforce non-comps across the board... do they even open up shop in CA?
Those companies (illegally) colluded to not poach each other's employees, or to hire them away from each other. That's different from the employees having non-compete agreements; basically it was an end-run around the fact that they couldn't hold their employees to non-compete contracts. And yes, they got their asses handed to them, rightfully. Something like that would not have happened in most other states, since in most other places employees are forced to sign those contracts as a condition for employment.
Now granted, I've only worked in a couple of states, and never signed a non-comp, but as far as I'm aware it's pretty much "at-will" employment most places, in that employment can be terminated by either party, at any time, for any reason. But again, that's based purely on my own experience.
Oil workers are not like software engineers. There's lots of software engineering jobs out there in places much more desirable than Detroit, and there's a high barrier to entry in the profession (namely, a college degree, and relevant experience).
Hey, machine shops are "high-tech" compared to, say, a bakery.
All a matter of perspective.
I've wondered the exact same thing. The ETs probably have a quarantine set up around our solar system to make sure we don't get out and none of them wander in.
Yea, that's pretty much my theory for why the Voyager probe keeps failing to leave the solar system; it's not that scientists have a vague definition of what counts as 'leaving the solar system,' it's just that Voyager keeps bumping into the fence.
Not that I don't find the technology cool and all, but... there's more going on in life today than the CES show.
Hell, there's more at CES than 3D printers, but you wouldn't know it from reading Slashdot.
It will also kill off the entire replacement parts industry. Cars, washing machines, fridges, etc, etc.
Riiiiiiight... because when I need a new tie-rod end in my truck, a shitty plastic one will be just as good as the cast metal part it's replacing.
In local news tonight, tragedy struck when a moron who replaced metal parts of his vehicle with 3D printed, plastic ones caused an 18-car pile up on the interstate...
Shit, I'd rather people keep making guns with 'em.
Two, TWO 3D Printer Slashvertisements, ah ah ah...
Seriously, when they said money is speech, they certainly didn't have anyone like him in mind.
Holy Federal Reserve, Batman, if that's not one of the most damn insightful statements I've seen in some time...
That's a big "if." Compared to much of the world, even the poor and criminal element here are helped out enormously, and yet most of them do not become winners. Haven't you heard of the cycle of poverty?
Well, the real problem is in convincing the people with power to care about the people without it.
Which usually doesn't happen without open and violent revolution.
If I had any idea what to do about it, I'd have done it already.
Because you can't run a company without workers, and there's no qualified workers in Detroit.
Like how the fracking companies had to give up on digging for oil in the Dakotas, because there weren't any qualified workers there, right?
Oh, wait, that's not what happened - the fracking companies opened shop, and workers poured into the area, so many of them that housing costs became unsustainable.
Apparently, if you build it, they really will come.
Also, your contention about being "individual-unfriendly" is bogus.
As a midwesterner who, over the decades, has seen countless people move here from California, most of them stating their reasoning being related to taxation and lack of property rights out there, I'm going to disagree based on personal experience.
If you work at some company in a town that's dominated by a particular industry (in a non-CA state), you may find yourself unable to get another job if you want to or need to leave your job for some reason, because all those companies are competitors. In California, this isn't the case; if you work company A and their competitor company B offers you a better deal, you can go to work there.
Uh, you do know that slavery and indentured servitude are illegal, right? Going to a different company because you got a better offer has nothing to do with the state you live in.
But wait; wasn't it just last week that a bunch of Silicon Valley companies got their asses handed to them by the courts for colluding on non-hiring agreements?
Isn't that pretty much the complete opposite of the picture you're trying to paint here?
> My case: the root issue isn't fixable.
With a collective attitude like that, you're probably right.
We, as a nation, need a sea change from "selfish assholism" to "helping each other out, because if we all win, we're all winners."
I think you're both right.
The root problem simply isn't fixable. As you say, the nation needs a sea change, but that's about as likely as Vulcans visiting us and establishing first contact next week.
Sometimes I wonder if we haven't been invited into the galactic community because we're so damn unfixable.
Not a 'criminal', simply a 'traitor' - a traitor can have good motives (good enough for him), but we-all used to shoot a lot of 'em.
Question for the "Snowden is a traitor" camp:
Upon what evidence do you make the claim that Edward Snowden either gave and and comfort to enemies of the American People, or declared war on the same?
It's addressable but that's not the same as fixable*. Human problems aren't going away.
Gotcha, on the same page now.
There's something funny/sad about that second sentence that I just can't put my finger on.
Yeah, because the only thing keeping people out of Detroit now is high land prices!
Land and money, not money for land.
Give me a small to medium sized machine shop, and the money to pay for startup costs, I'll have 20 - 50 people working full time by the end of the month. Probably sooner.
Super insightful commentary. SuperBanana.
With the constant drone of 'jobs, jobs, jobs,' I think we often forget that there's much more to life than working.
My case: the root issue isn't fixable.
With a collective attitude like that, you're probably right.
We, as a nation, need a sea change from "selfish assholism" to "helping each other out, because if we all win, we're all winners."
Please, do tell us how the region of Detroit is going to attract money, thereby lifting the longterm level of wealth, when your plan is to just poor some money into it for a couple of year.
Assuming you went to school there, I'd drop some serious bucks on increasing the quality of education, specifically in the 'spelling and grammar' arenas. Sheesh.
Detroit got poor because they were no longer attracting money via the car industry. Tell us how your plan deals with the source of the problems, not the symptoms of their results.
"Became" poor, not "got."
Despite an obvious paucity of English education, you already named the solution: Bring the manufacturing jobs back. Really, is there any reason Ford makes car parts in Mexico, other than to help a small handful of people secure shit-tons of personal wealth? It's not like outsourcing made cars any cheaper.
But hey, it doesn't have to be cars, they could become a mecca of firearms manufacturing, or drone production, or any of a million possible industries that employ both low- and high-skill workers. You just have to fucking try, instead of writing millions of people off because you don't want to be bothered with how shitty a situation they happen to be in at the moment.
If you can't get the people already there to be productive import them!
The question is, has anyone tried? Or is this one of those "searching for unicorns" situations, like when Microsoft begs Uncle Sam for more H1B visa workers, claiming they can't find any Americans qualified and willing to do the work?
Personally I say let it die, scrape the ruins into a big ditch and make it the dump for the rest of the US. That would be an improvement.
Fine for you.
I like to fix things, and I don't like to give up. Call it a quirk.
He deserves his right to speak freely without fear of government retribution.
He deserves his right to a fair and speedy trial, by a jury of his peers.
He deserves his right to face his accusers, the accusations they make, and the evidence being presented against him.
He deserves his right (and duty) to out traitors to the American People, so they may be tried for their crimes as well.
Unfortunately, the government authorized by the Constitution doesn't seem to agree with anything the aforementioned document says, so neither Snowden, nor the traitors, nor any of the rest of us will be getting what he/they/we deserve.
So it goes, as Vonnegut would say.
give the existing population work (instead of just importing more people), and give them the opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty.
So I like the idea but it's kind of a chicken vs egg thing.
High tech companies need HIGHLY skilled workers. Most of the unemployed autoworkers in Detroit are not highly skilled.
Why does it have to be "high tech companies" and "HIGHLY skilled workers?" Why can't we, as a nation, demand that our government stop allowing corporations to outsource our jobs to indentured servants in other countries?
Hell, if I had the capital, do you know what business I know I could start and run successfully in Detroit? A firearms manufacturing plant - nobody needs a degree to be a machinist or forklift operator, plus it's not like there'd be a shortage of customers.
Would I prefer to start my own car company? Sure as hell I would, but thanks to legislation like NAFTA, there's no way I'd be able to compete with the multi-billion dollar car companies who cut costs by farming work out to the Chinese and Mexicans.
Because the people left in Detroit are trapped in a cycle of poverty, mostly with no real prospects due to lack of education(or they'd have moved out to someplace that would pay for their skills)? Every city has that problem, it's just usually bolstered by a more robust economy to help pull people out. The lack of employable people keeps employers away. The lack of employers keeps people from training for jobs they could have. And all that remains is a sense of desperation and crime.
I think the crime is more of a deterrent to rebirth than lack of skilled and educated workers - you don't have to be that smart or learned to be a 'process handler' in a manufacturing setting. Of course, to bring manufacturing back to Detroit would mean that our government would have to modify or cancel a lot of those "free trade agreements" that our 'leaders' have, personally, profited from enacting.
Detroit isn't dying because the people living there suddenly decided being criminals was better than working; Detroit is dying because all the 'good jobs' people used to be able to get there have been exported to China and Mexico. We won't be able to fix anything until we fix the root issue first.