Why? This is like saying that any number has to be contained in a nonterminating, nonrepeating decimal. Consider: 0.1010010001000010000010000001000000010 000001000000000.....
Obviously that will never contain, say, the digits 42. Another example...if no monkey typed the letter "j", Romeo and Juliet would be unlikely to be produced. Obviously, one would almost certainly type it; however, I don't see any reason to think that it's required that Shakespeare's works be generated. Any particular finite string of characters could be absent from the output.
I agree. After reading the postings by the Horde here, I think I'm going to start calling it GNU/Linux.
Daniel
Agreed but Bruce is misdirected himself.
on
Feature:Free Linux
·
· Score: 1
Perhaps most of the stuff in a Linux distro isn't from the GNU project but most of the core system is. Comparing GNU/Linux to Apache/Linux or X/Linux is silly; my system runs fine if I do a dpkg --purge apache. Rather than lines of code, I'd like to see what's commonly installed on systems and what's installed by default.
IMO, saying that Linux system's are NOT GNU at the core is almost attempted theft.
Actually, no; I believe that FreeBSD uses its own replacement for most of the standard GNU utilities (not sure about libc tho). I saw a thread in the Debian mail archives about creating a GNU/FreeBSD distribution, though. Don't know what happened to it.
The argument isn't that the FSF has contributed to Linux. The argument is that Linux _is_ GNU. Once the HURD is finished we'll have a GNU/Hurd system. And I heard of some discussion of a GNU/BSD or even a GNU/Solaris system (which is IMO stretching it a bit but you get the idea)
Then why does it matter whether you replace the GNU utilities? Personally, I have no problem with people running a BSD/Linux system. But this article seems as hypocritical to me as the position it claims to find "reprehensive". Counting total lines of code (as he did) seems to me to be rather silly. Unless you want to count Apache, Netscape, and LyX (not to mention innumerable mail clients, news readers, IRC clients, games...) as part of the operating system. Microsoft deja vu...
Daniel
somebody needs convincing
on
Linux on CNN
·
· Score: 1
I'll say first that Gnome should never have been released so early. But I can't let some of these comments stand: - themability vs functionality. Which functionality is missing in Gnome (as opposed to simply being broken in your install or not-yet-implemented? I already said: Gnome is unfinished. I contend that it is not, however, fundamentally flawed.) - Gnome wrecks most distributions and breaks other apps. Most of Gnome's dependencies were satisfied by libs in my distribution! (libpng and friends). I've been running with zillions of different GTK+ versions on my system for months with no ill effects. Heck, I've been running with ten or fifteen versions of the Gnome libraries (generated from a compile script that compiles stuff overnight) In addition, I could now install debs of Gnome. I haven't, just because my CVS compile works perfectly well for me. This is much more significant than RPMs being available, since (as has been observed) RPMs generally consist of a bunch of random files thrown together into an archive. I can't think of any.debs that didn't install cleanly. (although in this case the software would be broken and incomplete when the install finished) - Modularity. First of all--AFAIK, you can configure gnome-libs to not link against esd if you so please. Again as far as I know, the same goes for other libraries. If you don't want to install libjpeg, don't.
Given the tone of your post, though, I suspect you're a 'true believer' and attempting to bring up anything so crass and propogandistic as facts is useless, so I won't even mention anything about all the Gnome developers who don't get RedHat paychecks. Oh well.
You might actually find the CVS to be easier to build. I have the impression that the developers put a lot more effort into the CVS sources than into making working tarballs. I've been compiling from CVS for months with almost no hiccup now...of course, the only Gnome programs I use are panel and gnomecc and those don't crash any more. (I start gmc every so often to see how it's doing. Getting better. Still falls over. Unfinished software.)
I am amazed. An article about RMS on/., and what do I see? Indeed, it appears to have replies in the form of intelligent posts, not (mostly) raving diatribes...
Let me list a few programs listed on the GNU Software Page as part of GNU.
bash
binutils
CVS
Bison
Gnuchess
libc
cpio
auto{conf,make }
diffutils
fileutils
findutils
finger
gcc
g db
ghostscript
ghostvi ew
Gimp
Gnumeric
GNUstep
groff
gzip
indent
inetutils
ispell
les s
m4
mc
nethack
ncurses
shellutils
smail
wg et
The HURD
Gnome
The X Window System [XFree]
GNU is an operating system. The underpinnings were written by FSF and are licensed under the GPL. Many of the applications on it are also written by the FSF. Many aren't. So? We're discussing the name of the OS. Not the name of the distribution.
And btw, not under GPL does not mean not GNU.
I invite you again to run only with code that is not part of GNU.
Do you have another drive installed that vmware can't see? LILO tries to access all drives with images on startup and dies noisily (with 01010101010101) if one is missing.
After all the trouble I went to, booting Win95 gives me the logo screen, and then vmware dies with 'NOT_IMPLEMENTED'. I tried emailing what it asked for to support@vmware.com and got back a procmail error. Heh. Cute idea, but totally broken as far as I can tell if it doesn't even survive the boot process. (if I sound a little critical it's because I spent all afternoon fighting with it, trying to get it to boot)
OTOH, booting the Debian install disk under Debian was kinda fun for a few seconds.
Hmm, it worked for me. I got this one time though, try doing make clean and deleting the include files (linux/modversions.h and another one) that the makefile added.
It won't have any effect on wine, they're different types of programs with different goals and different strengths. It might actually help since the Wine DirectX developers can now set up a virtual Linux machine to test on (so if X falls over they can keep going);-)
I don't see why it shouldn't support BeOS, since it works (as far as I can tell) by emulating computer hardware rather than software. You just wouldn't get the 'snazzier' features (like video acceleration through their custom drivers)
If you think your operating system is Linux, I invite you to boot a bare kernel and then post about your success to Slashdot. If you think an operating system includes the GUI, then why do I routinely log in from a straight console? (and btw, XFree is part of the GNU system)
The GNU system is a set of UNIXish utilities and programs, most under the GPL and written by the FSF, which together form the fundamental operating layer of a usable computer system. In Linux, this layer has one additional component which is not part of GNU, the kernel. Ergo, it is called GNU/Linux.
And please don't tell me that you could replace all the GNU components with non-GNU components. Of course you could. Then you wouldn't be running GNU/Linux anymore. IMHO, the RMS-bashers are just trying to make him look silly to marginalize him. I'm not going to resort to a silly analogy to make my point, though.
I'll be interested to hear when someone manages to remove libc, sh, make, sed, fileutils, and binutils and still have a usable system, though.;-) That said, I still call the system Linux in conversation just because GNU/Linux is too long and everyone knows what I mean. But the proper name is GNU/Linux.
Daniel [ PS - the BSD contribution to my system, so far as I can tell, consists of kill, renice, whois, write, and a bunch of minor calendar-related utilities. ]
(a) Install apt. If you can't find it in dselect, you should look on Debian's site to find it. This isn't required but it'll make your life a lot easier. (b) Edit/etc/apt/sources.list and make sure there's a line like: deb http://www.debian.org/debian stable main contrib non-free (c) Run "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade".
Slashdot Mirror
Yes, then it wouldn't be GNU/Linux anymore. Your point?
Daniel
They started GNU. People like to forget about GNU, even when they're using it. I find that to be somewhere between amusing and depressing.
Daniel
How about purging (however your system does it) libc, ls, sh, and sed?
Daniel
"If you pick up a starving dog and give him food, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
-- Mark Twain
Daniel
Why? This is like saying that any number has to be contained in a nonterminating, nonrepeating decimal. Consider:0 000001000000000.....
0.101001000100001000001000000100000001
Obviously that will never contain, say, the digits 42. Another example...if no monkey typed the letter "j", Romeo and Juliet would be unlikely to be produced. Obviously, one would almost certainly type it; however, I don't see any reason to think that it's required that Shakespeare's works be generated. Any particular finite string of characters could be absent from the output.
Daniel
Linux is GNU.
Daniel
I agree. After reading the postings by the Horde here, I think I'm going to start calling it GNU/Linux.
Daniel
Perhaps most of the stuff in a Linux distro isn't from the GNU project but most of the core system is. Comparing GNU/Linux to Apache/Linux or X/Linux is silly; my system runs fine if I do a dpkg --purge apache. Rather than lines of code, I'd like to see what's commonly installed on systems and what's installed by default.
IMO, saying that Linux system's are NOT GNU at the core is almost attempted theft.
Daniel
Where? Could you please give me a reference to a quote by RMS that says "I created the notion of free software"?
Daniel
Actually, no; I believe that FreeBSD uses its own replacement for most of the standard GNU utilities (not sure about libc tho). I saw a thread in the Debian mail archives about creating a GNU/FreeBSD distribution, though. Don't know what happened to it.
Daniel
The argument isn't that the FSF has contributed to Linux. The argument is that Linux _is_ GNU. Once the HURD is finished we'll have a GNU/Hurd system. And I heard of some discussion of a GNU/BSD or even a GNU/Solaris system (which is IMO stretching it a bit but you get the idea)
Daniel
Then why does it matter whether you replace the GNU utilities? Personally, I have no problem with people running a BSD/Linux system. But this article seems as hypocritical to me as the position it claims to find "reprehensive". Counting total lines of code (as he did) seems to me to be rather silly. Unless you want to count Apache, Netscape, and LyX (not to mention innumerable mail clients, news readers, IRC clients, games...) as part of the operating system. Microsoft deja vu...
Daniel
I'll say first that Gnome should never have been released so early. But I can't let some of these comments stand: .debs that didn't install cleanly. (although in this case the software would be broken and incomplete when the install finished)
- themability vs functionality. Which functionality is missing in Gnome (as opposed to simply being broken in your install or not-yet-implemented? I already said: Gnome is unfinished. I contend that it is not, however, fundamentally flawed.)
- Gnome wrecks most distributions and breaks other apps. Most of Gnome's dependencies were satisfied by libs in my distribution! (libpng and friends). I've been running with zillions of different GTK+ versions on my system for months with no ill effects. Heck, I've been running with ten or fifteen versions of the Gnome libraries (generated from a compile script that compiles stuff overnight) In addition, I could now install debs of Gnome. I haven't, just because my CVS compile works perfectly well for me. This is much more significant than RPMs being available, since (as has been observed) RPMs generally consist of a bunch of random files thrown together into an archive. I can't think of any
- Modularity. First of all--AFAIK, you can configure gnome-libs to not link against esd if you so please. Again as far as I know, the same goes for other libraries. If you don't want to install libjpeg, don't.
Given the tone of your post, though, I suspect you're a 'true believer' and attempting to bring up anything so crass and propogandistic as facts is useless, so I won't even mention anything about all the Gnome developers who don't get RedHat paychecks. Oh well.
Daniel
You might actually find the CVS to be easier to build. I have the impression that the developers put a lot more effort into the CVS sources than into making working tarballs. I've been compiling from CVS for months with almost no hiccup now...of course, the only Gnome programs I use are panel and gnomecc and those don't crash any more. (I start gmc every so often to see how it's doing. Getting better. Still falls over. Unfinished software.)
Daniel
I am amazed. An article about RMS on /., and what do I see? Indeed, it appears to have replies in the form of intelligent posts, not (mostly) raving diatribes...
Daniel
GNU is an operating system. The underpinnings were written by FSF and are licensed under the GPL. Many of the applications on it are also written by the FSF. Many aren't. So? We're discussing the name of the OS. Not the name of the distribution.
And btw, not under GPL does not mean not GNU.
I invite you again to run only with code that is not part of GNU.
Hint: start with libc...
Daniel
Do you have another drive installed that vmware can't see? LILO tries to access all drives with images on startup and dies noisily (with 01010101010101) if one is missing.
Daniel
After all the trouble I went to, booting Win95 gives me the logo screen, and then vmware dies with 'NOT_IMPLEMENTED'. I tried emailing what it asked for to support@vmware.com and got back a procmail error. Heh. Cute idea, but totally broken as far as I can tell if it doesn't even survive the boot process. (if I sound a little critical it's because I spent all afternoon fighting with it, trying to get it to boot)
OTOH, booting the Debian install disk under Debian was kinda fun for a few seconds.
Daniel
Hmm, it worked for me. I got this one time though, try doing make clean and deleting the include files (linux/modversions.h and another one) that the makefile added.
It won't have any effect on wine, they're different types of programs with different goals and different strengths. It might actually help since the Wine DirectX developers can now set up a virtual Linux machine to test on (so if X falls over they can keep going) ;-)
Daniel
I don't see why it shouldn't support BeOS, since it works (as far as I can tell) by emulating computer hardware rather than software. You just wouldn't get the 'snazzier' features (like video acceleration through their custom drivers)
Daniel
The GNU system is a set of UNIXish utilities and programs, most under the GPL and written by the FSF, which together form the fundamental operating layer of a usable computer system. In Linux, this layer has one additional component which is not part of GNU, the kernel. Ergo, it is called GNU/Linux.
And please don't tell me that you could replace all the GNU components with non-GNU components. Of course you could. Then you wouldn't be running GNU/Linux anymore. IMHO, the RMS-bashers are just trying to make him look silly to marginalize him. I'm not going to resort to a silly analogy to make my point, though.
I'll be interested to hear when someone manages to remove libc, sh, make, sed, fileutils, and binutils and still have a usable system, though.
That said, I still call the system Linux in conversation just because GNU/Linux is too long and everyone knows what I mean. But the proper name is GNU/Linux.
Daniel
[ PS - the BSD contribution to my system, so far as I can tell, consists of kill, renice, whois, write, and a bunch of minor calendar-related utilities. ]
But it's lower level than the guest OS, which is what matters here.
Daniel
...that Microsoft invented the paperclip? Isn't it integrated into Office 98? ;-)
Daniel
There should be a description of how to do it at Debian's web page.
/etc/apt/sources.list and make sure there's a line like:
Basically, what you do is this:
(a) Install apt. If you can't find it in dselect, you should look on Debian's site to find it. This isn't required but it'll make your life a lot easier.
(b) Edit
deb http://www.debian.org/debian stable main contrib non-free
(c) Run "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade".
Daniel