I don't know where you live, but even my smallish town has a public health clinic. Many area hospitals also have walk in care for people that can't pay. These things are possible without overreaching federal legislation or abusing the ER. There's also the more recent trend of having urgent care clinics for things that are not life or death emergencies.
Humans being humans. I believe that some of this at its core is behavior hardwired into us from the earlier days of our evolution. Someone is always going to want more than someone else. Some of them will be entirely willing to accomplish that through the use of force or through thievery. That certainly happens in the animal kingdom, and we are animals ourselves. Yes, we could probably provide an equivalent existence for the entire population, but people in the developed nations are not going to lower their own quality of life by any significant amount therefore it's not going to happen. Not now anyway. If we get to the point where we can elevate everyone, then maybe.
A lot of us are doing what is basically busy work. It's not necessary, but as a people, we wouldn't know what to do with ourselves outside of work. Look at the sad lives of people who win large lottery prizes. Some end up worse off than before. I know of people that would qualify for disability, as an example, but they don't for the same reason. Look at areas where a lot of people live on entitlements. They tend to be high crime areas, do they not?
We could get there maybe, but we're not ready for it now.
If the open source projects were not available, then a business needing that functionality would have to employ resources in house to do it or contract the work to some other business. I think the analogy works just fine. There is a giant pool of work that needs to be done with regards to software, but it is certainly not infinite. For an individual business, that pool of work is not likely to be all that large.
If coders contribute code in their free time to an open source project is that bad because it takes that opportunity away from corporate coders who make their living off that kind of work? Is the corporate coder disadvantaged by the open source contributors that are doing it for fun? They don't have to consider having an office, benefits, or any of that.
I might buy that if these companies revealed the basis for their policy pricing. I'm more pessimistic. Risk assessment is probably less of a priority to them than trying to figure out how much they can charge a customer before the customer flees to another insurer. As for these analytics, I'm not sure what their motivation is, but I'm not taking their word for it that safer drivers will pay less. If that's true, they can disclose what qualifies one as safe based on the data retrieved from the vehicle. "Trust us" doesn't work here. The real motivation might be raw data harvesting with an eye towards selling that data to other parties later on.
That sounds great until you realize that people are weaving in and out of lanes because of potholes, sunken manhole covers and the like. These types of analytics are not going to take real world driving into account, they're just going to drive up the costs of insurance because what other motivation do insurance companies have? It's like internet service. If all the providers suck, there's no pressure to offer anything better.
Already there. Only the very basic stuff is documented and open to OBD-II. It may come over the same connector in this case, but the data itself and how it's laid out is the domain of the manufacturer.
I get your point, but middle income America does love its ability to deduct mortgage interest and a number of other things. One could argue that we love to find ways to lower our tax obligations just as much as business does. If not, why not just let Uncle Sam keep all the withholding and not ask for a refund at all?
As for ethics vs law, ultimately it's the public that's at fault for not holding our representatives responsible for their actions. If our reps get bought out by corporations, it's up to their constituents to vote the person out, recall them, make a stink to get the problem fixed, etc. So long as people base their votes on one party or by TV ads, things won't get any better for us. Why waste effort blaming the corporations when they're doing exactly what would be expected of a for-profit entity?
If you're unwilling to voluntarily pay more out of your own pocket, you are hypocritical in suggesting that others should pay more. How difficult a concept is this? You want others to do what you will not do yourself. What ever happened to the days of "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"?
This comes up in Massachusetts every so often. They have the normal rate for income tax but they also have an optional higher rate if people want to contribute more to the state government. So what happens? When people start calling out for people to pay more to support the schools or other issue of the day, the media starts pulling tax records and pointing out that those same people did not elect to pay more themselves.
Or even more hypocritical, someone took a picture of a state legislator license plate from Massachusetts at a New Hampshire liquor store. The legislator had just voted to up the tax on alcohol in MA and was evading it by buying in NH. So it's okay for others to pay more, but it's not okay for the people complaining the most to voluntarily pay on their own.
That's a state thing and not all states have them, and you're assuming the call centers are making any effort at all to stay within the law. Most still don't even send proper caller id information. Plus there's always the cute trick of using a call center outside the US.
Yea, those users that left because of that incident aren't going to be won back. You either support an open Internet, or you don't. A browser org can't become the thought crime police.
Real science brought us things like asbestos and CFCs. Real science has brought us conflicting nutritional guidelines. Real science had us fearing global cooling, then global warming, then global undefined change. It shouldn't be surprising that the average layperson is going to be skeptical of the latest batch of scientific facts. A honest scientist should also be skeptical, science requires a bit of skepticism and the ability to challenge its own accepted facts. At the same time, there is a need for everyone to be vaccinated against certain diseases, for example. The sad part is that we have to mandate it. Science isn't trusted, government certainly isn't trusted, and here we are. It's the ever-present conflict of liberty versus safety.
Isn't that kind of the point of living in a free country? We're all entitled to our own beliefs. Why is it "alarming" or "even worse" that one group doesn't agree with another on a particular topic?
In this story, which group of people were pulling drivers out of cars and beating them, damaging those cars, holding passengers hostage in the terminals, and lighting tire fires trying to block the entrances to the airport? The parent has a point. They do disrupt commerce and trade. The unions have now taken on the role of mercenary instead of the companies. I don't blame customers for not wanting to get into those vehicles, and prefer something like Uber instead. Do you want to get into a car with your family with a violent lunatic behind the wheel? I don't even like what Uber is doing, but this incident is insane. You challenge stuff like this in the courts, you don't take the law into your own hands and go vigilante like that.
"Now, feel free to try to poke some holes in that. As of yet, you've simply ignored it."
I addressed that already, as have others. Inheritance, child custody, hospital visitation, all of that, all of your "substantive" issues can be addressed in a manner not unlike what is done for couples. We could have group tax filings. It's just more names on the forms and more W2s and/or 1099s. Estates can be split as with children when there are no surviving parents. Etc. Those are implementation details, those are not justifications for continued discrimination. That's like saying, well.. a lot of forms already have Mr and Mrs on them and we'd have to change them, or child custody in many/most states favor the female/mother.. so it's just not the same thing as marriage. Don't you understand that?
"No, you used the term bigot because you're projecting."
Projecting what? I'm suggesting that we treat all groups the same. That's the opposite of bigotry. What the hell?
"1. You are against gay marriage. Evidence for this is you saying my statement that gay marriage is marriage 'is wrong'."
Out of context. My point was that if that were the consensus, there wouldn't have been any issue for the court to consider. Clearly there was. You can't just say "x is marriage" and use that as a persuasive reason why it should be so. As I stated in that context, I can also say "poly is marriage" but you'd refute that apparently. The argument I'm making is that discrimination continues, I'm not arguing against the court decision.
"2. You think that the arguments against gay marriage and polygamy are identical. Evidence for this is the fact that you've been arguing they're identical."
The justification that traditionalists were using, yes.
"3. You think that I am against polygamy."
No. I think you're against acknowledging that poly marriage is as much marriage and as deserving of the right to be recognized as marriage as the way that hetero or gay couples are considered married.
"4. You think you can catch me being hypocritical because I'm against polygamy, but not against gay marriage, and the arguments are the same."
Against poly marriage, yes.
"It's like you got your talking points from Rush Limbaugh."
I don't listen to his show, but I'm pretty sure he's not in favor of anything except traditional man and woman marriage. Are you not paying attention? I'm calling out the fact that while gays can now marry, the law still discriminates. Why do you keep ignoring that?
"Large groups and couples are not similarly situated. The number of people in a group directly affects its ability to contribute to or participate in society. Large numbers of people have more votes than small numbers. They consume more resources. They can be in more places at once. "
Wow! Polygamists don't contribute to society the same way that a couple can? That's pretty much hate speech right there. They're people, just like anyone else. I can't imagine what's going through your mind to come up with that gem. Again, that sounds an awful lot like the rhetoric against gay marriage. Two guys could never raise a family, therefore they're not contributing to society the same way. That's my beef against your "logic". It's bigoted. There's no way you can justify making a statement like that.
"They consume more resources."
Actually, it's probably the other way around. Let's say it's a group of four. Those married four are likely to live in the same dwelling whereas two married pairs are almost certainly going to be in two separate dwellings. Again, I can't imagine what you're thinking.
"They can be in more places at once."
Are they cloning themselves?
You've got something going on, but it's not logic.
"The comparison you're trying (and failing) to make is that people were denying gay marriage because, as they said, "gay marriage" is not a fundamental right and not in our traditions, as if it was something different. It is not: gay marriage is marriage."
There it is finally. That's the point of contention. The last sentence is wrong. If it were true, then there never would have been any argument to the contrary. I can make the exact same statement: poly marriage is marriage. It's not just Mormons. How many married people end up cheating on their spouses? It's not always just a fling. How many have "open marriages"? How many have had multiple marriages in different locations simultaneously? Poly may not be done in the open all that often, but there are certainly many partnered adults out there with multiple partners. They have to be secretive because society doesn't want to talk about them or acknowledge that they exist. "In the closet."
I used the term bigot because I don't know how else to explain your position on this. You seem to have a very strong desire to separate one type of arrangement from another, not unlike the traditional marriage folks insisting that gay marriage is something separate. If they're called bigots for that, then I think what you're trying to do with your "logic" is the same exact thing. People establish relationships. It can't be confined to a race, we've been there. It can no longer be confined to specific genders, we're there now. Why on Earth would we limit it to a specific number of individuals? Tribalism has existed for a very long time.
You say you haven't said anything against polygamy but you won't acknowledge that it's the same thing. It is no less a fundamental right. Race isn't, gender isn't, count shouldn't be either going by the same logic. I don't know how you can rationalize your stance to yourself, it doesn't make sense. All the naysayers said that race or gender or what-have-you was not the same institution. It's the same argument.
"Note that you can't actually quote me ever saying that."
That's my summary of your opinion. Gays can marry because it's easy and we don't have to change much of the law. Polys and singles and any other arrangement can continue to be discriminated against because it'd be too difficult to afford them the same rights as others. Is that not your opinion? I'm not hearing voices, I'm reading your comments. Please clarify if I missed something.
"You can't very well refute it if you have no idea what you're arguing about."
Probably because you're as much of a bigot as the traditionalists are accused of being and you refuse to acknowledge it.
I saw this in another of your comments:
"Polygamy does not have such a place in our traditions or collective conscience, and therefore is not a fundamental right."
Do you realize how many times traditional marriage proponents used that exact same justification? Traditional marriage. Tradition. "Polygamy does not have such a place in our traditions". By that quote, you would refuse gay marriage because it was not a tradition nor was it ever a significant part of our "collective conscience". Your reasoning here is absurd!
You're still arguing convenience over rights. You really want to go with the defense of "it would be too much work"? Throw that argument out the window, it's irrelevant. Does marriage after this court decision still discriminate? Based on the reasoning laid out for this decision, yes, it absolutely does.
"Seriously, do you even understand why courts and laws exist and we don't just have everything based on "whatever criteria a judge wants."
Two points.
First, there is a thing called "legislating from the bench". It's real. It happens.
Second, when it comes to child custody, there are numerous variables in play and often no clear-cut solution as defined by law. The judge does have a lot of say in the final outcome. Any ruling by a judge is always based on that judge's interpretation of the relevant laws, and no two judges will always come to the same conclusion. Beyond that, one judge may put more weight into financials while another may put more weight into family ties or other metrics. Family law is a mine field.
Back to my point though, all the court did was bring in some of the groups that were being discriminated against, yet marriage still discriminates. Yes, absolutely, it may be a more difficult thing to correct than gay marriage (difficult to say because even that took a hell of a long time), but this problem still has not been resolved. It's a partial victory, at best.
3>2 was addressed well by another user, but it's a classification not unlike "one man and one woman". Your equal protection argument breaks down because "one man and one woman" always held true for every adult, whether man or woman. No matter your gender, you could always marry one adult of the opposite gender. I know a lot of people detest that analysis, but it was true. Just like for polys and singles today, that wasn't acceptable, but that's how it was.
I fully agree with you. I think in the end, we will see the government withdraw from being involved in people's lives this way. Divorce proceedings and other legal entanglements are burdening the courts and even traditional marriage is starting to fail as a usable construct. "Until death do you part" is becoming a case of false advertising more often than not. There's a much larger dialog to be had on this topic.
"That's not true for gay marriage, where literally nothing but the label on a line on a form changes."
Nothing but a label.
"The side of law and logic?"
So.. you supported the Defense of Marriage act? Because that was law. Right?
What you're basically saying is that convenience is more important than civil rights. Gay marriage was "easy" to do, so it gets implemented. Poly or single is not, therefore they get nothing, and it's okay to continue discriminating against them.
Taxes? You file as a group, just like a couple does. Inheritance? You divide the assets, same as when the last parent dies and the estate is divided equally or as laid out in the will. Children? Again, as laid out in the will or the court decides based on whatever criteria they wish to use, or ideally the surviving adults come to agreement.
Step back and really think about your comments. You are the new traditionalist. You really are. You're reaching for justification to continue denying something to a smaller portion of the population.
Slashdot Mirror
I don't know where you live, but even my smallish town has a public health clinic. Many area hospitals also have walk in care for people that can't pay. These things are possible without overreaching federal legislation or abusing the ER. There's also the more recent trend of having urgent care clinics for things that are not life or death emergencies.
Humans being humans. I believe that some of this at its core is behavior hardwired into us from the earlier days of our evolution. Someone is always going to want more than someone else. Some of them will be entirely willing to accomplish that through the use of force or through thievery. That certainly happens in the animal kingdom, and we are animals ourselves. Yes, we could probably provide an equivalent existence for the entire population, but people in the developed nations are not going to lower their own quality of life by any significant amount therefore it's not going to happen. Not now anyway. If we get to the point where we can elevate everyone, then maybe.
A lot of us are doing what is basically busy work. It's not necessary, but as a people, we wouldn't know what to do with ourselves outside of work. Look at the sad lives of people who win large lottery prizes. Some end up worse off than before. I know of people that would qualify for disability, as an example, but they don't for the same reason. Look at areas where a lot of people live on entitlements. They tend to be high crime areas, do they not?
We could get there maybe, but we're not ready for it now.
If the open source projects were not available, then a business needing that functionality would have to employ resources in house to do it or contract the work to some other business. I think the analogy works just fine. There is a giant pool of work that needs to be done with regards to software, but it is certainly not infinite. For an individual business, that pool of work is not likely to be all that large.
Part of the role of the navy for any country is to protect the shipping routes.
If coders contribute code in their free time to an open source project is that bad because it takes that opportunity away from corporate coders who make their living off that kind of work? Is the corporate coder disadvantaged by the open source contributors that are doing it for fun? They don't have to consider having an office, benefits, or any of that.
I might buy that if these companies revealed the basis for their policy pricing. I'm more pessimistic. Risk assessment is probably less of a priority to them than trying to figure out how much they can charge a customer before the customer flees to another insurer. As for these analytics, I'm not sure what their motivation is, but I'm not taking their word for it that safer drivers will pay less. If that's true, they can disclose what qualifies one as safe based on the data retrieved from the vehicle. "Trust us" doesn't work here. The real motivation might be raw data harvesting with an eye towards selling that data to other parties later on.
That sounds great until you realize that people are weaving in and out of lanes because of potholes, sunken manhole covers and the like. These types of analytics are not going to take real world driving into account, they're just going to drive up the costs of insurance because what other motivation do insurance companies have? It's like internet service. If all the providers suck, there's no pressure to offer anything better.
Already there. Only the very basic stuff is documented and open to OBD-II. It may come over the same connector in this case, but the data itself and how it's laid out is the domain of the manufacturer.
I get your point, but middle income America does love its ability to deduct mortgage interest and a number of other things. One could argue that we love to find ways to lower our tax obligations just as much as business does. If not, why not just let Uncle Sam keep all the withholding and not ask for a refund at all?
As for ethics vs law, ultimately it's the public that's at fault for not holding our representatives responsible for their actions. If our reps get bought out by corporations, it's up to their constituents to vote the person out, recall them, make a stink to get the problem fixed, etc. So long as people base their votes on one party or by TV ads, things won't get any better for us. Why waste effort blaming the corporations when they're doing exactly what would be expected of a for-profit entity?
If you're unwilling to voluntarily pay more out of your own pocket, you are hypocritical in suggesting that others should pay more. How difficult a concept is this? You want others to do what you will not do yourself. What ever happened to the days of "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"?
This comes up in Massachusetts every so often. They have the normal rate for income tax but they also have an optional higher rate if people want to contribute more to the state government. So what happens? When people start calling out for people to pay more to support the schools or other issue of the day, the media starts pulling tax records and pointing out that those same people did not elect to pay more themselves.
Or even more hypocritical, someone took a picture of a state legislator license plate from Massachusetts at a New Hampshire liquor store. The legislator had just voted to up the tax on alcohol in MA and was evading it by buying in NH. So it's okay for others to pay more, but it's not okay for the people complaining the most to voluntarily pay on their own.
That's a state thing and not all states have them, and you're assuming the call centers are making any effort at all to stay within the law. Most still don't even send proper caller id information. Plus there's always the cute trick of using a call center outside the US.
Yea, those users that left because of that incident aren't going to be won back. You either support an open Internet, or you don't. A browser org can't become the thought crime police.
You don't need a license to make phone calls..
Real science brought us things like asbestos and CFCs. Real science has brought us conflicting nutritional guidelines. Real science had us fearing global cooling, then global warming, then global undefined change. It shouldn't be surprising that the average layperson is going to be skeptical of the latest batch of scientific facts. A honest scientist should also be skeptical, science requires a bit of skepticism and the ability to challenge its own accepted facts. At the same time, there is a need for everyone to be vaccinated against certain diseases, for example. The sad part is that we have to mandate it. Science isn't trusted, government certainly isn't trusted, and here we are. It's the ever-present conflict of liberty versus safety.
Well of course. OCP built New Detroit over the ruins of what had been Detroit.
#nofate
Isn't that kind of the point of living in a free country? We're all entitled to our own beliefs. Why is it "alarming" or "even worse" that one group doesn't agree with another on a particular topic?
In this story, which group of people were pulling drivers out of cars and beating them, damaging those cars, holding passengers hostage in the terminals, and lighting tire fires trying to block the entrances to the airport? The parent has a point. They do disrupt commerce and trade. The unions have now taken on the role of mercenary instead of the companies. I don't blame customers for not wanting to get into those vehicles, and prefer something like Uber instead. Do you want to get into a car with your family with a violent lunatic behind the wheel? I don't even like what Uber is doing, but this incident is insane. You challenge stuff like this in the courts, you don't take the law into your own hands and go vigilante like that.
"Now, feel free to try to poke some holes in that. As of yet, you've simply ignored it."
I addressed that already, as have others. Inheritance, child custody, hospital visitation, all of that, all of your "substantive" issues can be addressed in a manner not unlike what is done for couples. We could have group tax filings. It's just more names on the forms and more W2s and/or 1099s. Estates can be split as with children when there are no surviving parents. Etc. Those are implementation details, those are not justifications for continued discrimination. That's like saying, well.. a lot of forms already have Mr and Mrs on them and we'd have to change them, or child custody in many/most states favor the female/mother.. so it's just not the same thing as marriage. Don't you understand that?
"No, you used the term bigot because you're projecting."
Projecting what? I'm suggesting that we treat all groups the same. That's the opposite of bigotry. What the hell?
"1. You are against gay marriage. Evidence for this is you saying my statement that gay marriage is marriage 'is wrong'."
Out of context. My point was that if that were the consensus, there wouldn't have been any issue for the court to consider. Clearly there was. You can't just say "x is marriage" and use that as a persuasive reason why it should be so. As I stated in that context, I can also say "poly is marriage" but you'd refute that apparently. The argument I'm making is that discrimination continues, I'm not arguing against the court decision.
"2. You think that the arguments against gay marriage and polygamy are identical. Evidence for this is the fact that you've been arguing they're identical."
The justification that traditionalists were using, yes.
"3. You think that I am against polygamy."
No. I think you're against acknowledging that poly marriage is as much marriage and as deserving of the right to be recognized as marriage as the way that hetero or gay couples are considered married.
"4. You think you can catch me being hypocritical because I'm against polygamy, but not against gay marriage, and the arguments are the same."
Against poly marriage, yes.
"It's like you got your talking points from Rush Limbaugh."
I don't listen to his show, but I'm pretty sure he's not in favor of anything except traditional man and woman marriage. Are you not paying attention? I'm calling out the fact that while gays can now marry, the law still discriminates. Why do you keep ignoring that?
"Large groups and couples are not similarly situated. The number of people in a group directly affects its ability to contribute to or participate in society. Large numbers of people have more votes than small numbers. They consume more resources. They can be in more places at once. "
Wow! Polygamists don't contribute to society the same way that a couple can? That's pretty much hate speech right there. They're people, just like anyone else. I can't imagine what's going through your mind to come up with that gem. Again, that sounds an awful lot like the rhetoric against gay marriage. Two guys could never raise a family, therefore they're not contributing to society the same way. That's my beef against your "logic". It's bigoted. There's no way you can justify making a statement like that.
"They consume more resources."
Actually, it's probably the other way around. Let's say it's a group of four. Those married four are likely to live in the same dwelling whereas two married pairs are almost certainly going to be in two separate dwellings. Again, I can't imagine what you're thinking.
"They can be in more places at once."
Are they cloning themselves?
You've got something going on, but it's not logic.
"The comparison you're trying (and failing) to make is that people were denying gay marriage because, as they said, "gay marriage" is not a fundamental right and not in our traditions, as if it was something different. It is not: gay marriage is marriage."
There it is finally. That's the point of contention. The last sentence is wrong. If it were true, then there never would have been any argument to the contrary. I can make the exact same statement: poly marriage is marriage. It's not just Mormons. How many married people end up cheating on their spouses? It's not always just a fling. How many have "open marriages"? How many have had multiple marriages in different locations simultaneously? Poly may not be done in the open all that often, but there are certainly many partnered adults out there with multiple partners. They have to be secretive because society doesn't want to talk about them or acknowledge that they exist. "In the closet."
I used the term bigot because I don't know how else to explain your position on this. You seem to have a very strong desire to separate one type of arrangement from another, not unlike the traditional marriage folks insisting that gay marriage is something separate. If they're called bigots for that, then I think what you're trying to do with your "logic" is the same exact thing. People establish relationships. It can't be confined to a race, we've been there. It can no longer be confined to specific genders, we're there now. Why on Earth would we limit it to a specific number of individuals? Tribalism has existed for a very long time.
You say you haven't said anything against polygamy but you won't acknowledge that it's the same thing. It is no less a fundamental right. Race isn't, gender isn't, count shouldn't be either going by the same logic. I don't know how you can rationalize your stance to yourself, it doesn't make sense. All the naysayers said that race or gender or what-have-you was not the same institution. It's the same argument.
"Note that you can't actually quote me ever saying that."
That's my summary of your opinion. Gays can marry because it's easy and we don't have to change much of the law. Polys and singles and any other arrangement can continue to be discriminated against because it'd be too difficult to afford them the same rights as others. Is that not your opinion? I'm not hearing voices, I'm reading your comments. Please clarify if I missed something.
"You can't very well refute it if you have no idea what you're arguing about."
Probably because you're as much of a bigot as the traditionalists are accused of being and you refuse to acknowledge it.
I saw this in another of your comments:
"Polygamy does not have such a place in our traditions or collective conscience, and therefore is not a fundamental right."
Do you realize how many times traditional marriage proponents used that exact same justification? Traditional marriage. Tradition. "Polygamy does not have such a place in our traditions". By that quote, you would refuse gay marriage because it was not a tradition nor was it ever a significant part of our "collective conscience". Your reasoning here is absurd!
You're still arguing convenience over rights. You really want to go with the defense of "it would be too much work"? Throw that argument out the window, it's irrelevant. Does marriage after this court decision still discriminate? Based on the reasoning laid out for this decision, yes, it absolutely does.
"Seriously, do you even understand why courts and laws exist and we don't just have everything based on "whatever criteria a judge wants."
Two points.
First, there is a thing called "legislating from the bench". It's real. It happens.
Second, when it comes to child custody, there are numerous variables in play and often no clear-cut solution as defined by law. The judge does have a lot of say in the final outcome. Any ruling by a judge is always based on that judge's interpretation of the relevant laws, and no two judges will always come to the same conclusion. Beyond that, one judge may put more weight into financials while another may put more weight into family ties or other metrics. Family law is a mine field.
Back to my point though, all the court did was bring in some of the groups that were being discriminated against, yet marriage still discriminates. Yes, absolutely, it may be a more difficult thing to correct than gay marriage (difficult to say because even that took a hell of a long time), but this problem still has not been resolved. It's a partial victory, at best.
3>2 was addressed well by another user, but it's a classification not unlike "one man and one woman". Your equal protection argument breaks down because "one man and one woman" always held true for every adult, whether man or woman. No matter your gender, you could always marry one adult of the opposite gender. I know a lot of people detest that analysis, but it was true. Just like for polys and singles today, that wasn't acceptable, but that's how it was.
I fully agree with you. I think in the end, we will see the government withdraw from being involved in people's lives this way. Divorce proceedings and other legal entanglements are burdening the courts and even traditional marriage is starting to fail as a usable construct. "Until death do you part" is becoming a case of false advertising more often than not. There's a much larger dialog to be had on this topic.
"That's not true for gay marriage, where literally nothing but the label on a line on a form changes."
Nothing but a label.
"The side of law and logic?"
So.. you supported the Defense of Marriage act? Because that was law. Right?
What you're basically saying is that convenience is more important than civil rights. Gay marriage was "easy" to do, so it gets implemented. Poly or single is not, therefore they get nothing, and it's okay to continue discriminating against them.
Taxes? You file as a group, just like a couple does. Inheritance? You divide the assets, same as when the last parent dies and the estate is divided equally or as laid out in the will. Children? Again, as laid out in the will or the court decides based on whatever criteria they wish to use, or ideally the surviving adults come to agreement.
Step back and really think about your comments. You are the new traditionalist. You really are. You're reaching for justification to continue denying something to a smaller portion of the population.