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Automakers Unwilling To Share Driver Data (Yet)
An anonymous reader writes: With Apple and Google both vying for a place in your car's dashboard, you might start wondering to what extent the data you generate while driving might be analyzed or shared with advertisers. The good news is that car manufacturers are not keen to give this data away — some have specifically said they won't let Google or Apple get their hands on it. The bad news is that they feel this way because they see your data as a new source of profit — they're just deciding how best to harvest it. One executive at Ford said, "We need to control access to that data. We need to protect our ability to create value." According to the article, "Auto companies hope to profit from in-vehicle data in a variety of ways, including the provision of travel planning services and auto repair and service information they hope will bring drivers to dealerships. They also expect to work with insurance companies, providing information that would allow insurers to base their rates on a driver's behavior behind the wheel."
I really don't want any of this from them.
Just stop this "It's for your own good" crap.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
Step 1: Distract driver with advertisements Step 2: Collect revenue from auto repair shops and lawyers Step 3: Collect federal grant money to work with insurance companies to improve safety
He once inserted random mutations into his code, just so he could have the experience of debugging.
These jackasses don't want to hide the data for the privacy of its users, they want to hide to protect their own dinosaur asses because their business model is going to fall completely once people realize what they're doing and how they're going to let the insurers assrape their customers.
The last thing I need is Androids and iPhones telling me I drive like an asshole! I already have a wife for that purpose! My iPhone telling me, "Master you drive like shit dude", would send me into road rage.
Since I created the data by driving, and it is unique to my driving, can I assert copyright over it?
Nobody gets any data. Nobody - no car manufacturer, no Apple/Google, no insurance companies, no NSA/FBI. I, the consumer, don't need it or want it. Why does a car have to collect any data in the first place?
Is that even going to be an option in any future new cars?
Monitoring driving habits doesn't sound all that draconian to me. Things like speed limit, weaving in and out of lanes, panic stops, tailgating, etc. are reasonable factors in deciding how big of a risk a driver is. Some people think they're such skillful drivers that the rules don't apply to them, and they're wrong.
They will be giving out cars for free, right? Otherwise why would any paying customer that has to put down thousands of dollars would be interested in this?
> The bad news is that they feel this way because they see your data as a new source of profit — they're just deciding how best to harvest it.
It's really great how car co's just assume they are entitled to have this data.
I do not want this in my car, at all, in any form. No "opt out" or "we take your privacy seriously", nothing. I want it physically impossible for them to collect data.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
blah blah, you know the rest.
Funny how one insurance company already does this. Progressive will let you opt-in to putting a GPS tracker in your car that monitors your habits for a few weeks. Drive like a grandma, get a discount. Just don't let someone drive your car with it in. My old boss let his boss drive, and within 3 miles had 11 "incidents" that were reported to the insurance company... Each with an associated email.
I'm pretty sure I could have beaten that score...
Can I pay full price and keep all my data to myself?
When did every waking moment of my life have to be a monetizeable asset? This all grinds to a halt with an informed consumer and the hacker is no different. We were the ones to create and install adblock, noscript, ssl everywhere, and refuse location data. We null-routed known advertisers IP ranges and took back our internet, and if the same dog-and-pony capitalism is coming to transportation, You can be damn sure we will hack it. And if it cant be hacked, I havent met a peripheral or device that cant be removed with the help of a solder rework station and a pair of needle nose pliers.
Good people go to bed earlier.
I generate this data. I own this car. This is my data, not the company who made my car. If it's a rental, sure, go ahead and do what you want with that. But if I own the car, that data is MINE to choose whom I give it to, or don't give it to, and use as I see fit.
This isn't any different than any other appliance or device. I own my computer, The manufacturers that made it don't own the data that's created by using it. Tired of companies thinking they own what I do with the stuff they sell me. It's getting ridiculous.
How about this: your insurance company can assume you are a high risk driver unless they have data to indicate otherwise. You can choose to share your data, or you can pay premiums based on their assumption.
It's not just about monetization of data. It's also about trying to keep some things under relative wraps. Imagine if not just garages and enthusiasts could get the occasional read-out from e.g. the ODB-II, but that everybody with an in-dash Google/Apple unit or even just a smartphone communicating with a pre-installed dongle would have that information at any time. Worse, imagine if this information starts getting collected 'publicly' (under Google/Apple's control) and people (G/A) start noticing trends about certain models or brands. Marketing spin can only do so much in the face of widely collected data.
Um, my data is my property.
(C) 2015 Anonymous Coward all rights reserved.
I'm still in a vehicle that is a relic of a bygone era - the era when connectivity was opt-in by making explicit purchases for that functionality. My next vehicle negotiation will involve bringing a Ziploc bag and saying, "please have the folks in the shop place *all* cellular and GPS connectivity equipment in this bag. My purchase of this vehicle is wholly contingent upon this bag being full, and visual confirmation that my in-car infotainment system shows error messages before I pull out of the lot."
I look forward to the funny faces I get from the salesmen at the dealership, but this is the world we live in today, and it is sad that such a notion is even necessary.
Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon need to stay the HELL out of my dashboard.
"One executive at Ford said, "We need to control access to that data. We need to protect our ability to create value.""
This tells me that ford employs scumbags. So nope, go to hell Ford, you are now on my list right after GM for cars to never buy.
Looks like freedom for americans will come from asian car makers. Unless they decide to go down the scumbag rabbit hole.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
That's all we need, cars that come with yet another software EULA that says you don't actually own the software or communications systems in the car, and trying to customize it or removed unwanted "features" will violate the warranty and open me up to lawsuit liability. Not that that stopped many people from messing with software and/or communications before, but now it has the added fun of multi-ton machines hurtling down the road mixed in with it.
Seems like when a company "shares" their data, slashdot says they are violating our privacy.
... they aren't "sharing".
And when they don't
Is this like a "you can pick your own (conflicting) reasons for not liking these companies" kind of thing?
Fine if you don't want or need it, but recently Massachusetts law went into full effect that requires automakers to give owners access to that data. Hopefully more states will follow suit.
When do I get to protect access to my own data?
All I need to do is make a jumbo-sized tinfoil hat for my car.
Make America grate again!
My next vehicle negotiation will involve bringing a Ziploc bag and saying, "please have the folks in the shop place *all* cellular and GPS connectivity equipment in this bag. My purchase of this vehicle is wholly contingent upon this bag being full, and visual confirmation that my in-car infotainment system shows error messages before I pull out of the lot."
Good luck with that. I would be astonished if you could find any car dealer who would agree to such a request. Even if they knew how to do it that would involve substantial unnecessary work which they are unlikely to agree to. Furthermore they would be accepting liability risk of you coming back to them having sold them a non-functioning product.
I look forward to the funny faces I get from the salesmen at the dealership, but this is the world we live in today, and it is sad that such a notion is even necessary.
It's not necessary. You might prefer it that way which I guess is fine but it isn't even remotely necessary. Personally I like all the cellular and GPS stuff and no I'm not paranoid about it. If they screw with me I can afford a decent lawyer.
I generate this data. I own this car. This is my data, not the company who made my car. If it's a rental, sure, go ahead and do what you want with that. But if I own the car, that data is MINE to choose whom I give it to, or don't give it to, and use as I see fit.
That depends entirely upon the terms of the purchase agreement you made when you bought the car.
I own my computer, The manufacturers that made it don't own the data that's created by using it.
That doesn't mean you own the software that is on it necessarily unless you were the one that wrote it. You might have a license to use it but you don't own it. You might own the data or you might not. Depends on the license agreement and the applicable laws. Right or wrong it isn't so simple as you make it out to be. I don't disagree with your sentiments but I'm just pointing out that the reality of it isn't necessarily what we expect it should be.
Since I created the data by driving, and it is unique to my driving, can I assert copyright over it?
Good question but I think the case law and copyright law on this is probably a little ambiguous right now. As a general principle I think you should be the default owner of it but it might not actually end up working that way.
It is only a matter of time that real-time license point deduction (and more lucratively; insurance rate increase) systems become _mandatory_ to operate a motor vehicle.
Why? because panicky snowflake moms and insurance corporations control the law-making process.
Ford said, "We need to control access to that data. We need to protect our ability to create value."
Corporate Evilspeak Score [0-10]: 10.
Who really wants to pay the car makers a premium to do what your phone can already do? Just to have a screen and a bit of software that probably won't be supported very long? People are so gullible with technology, act like little kids in a toy store about tech. What happens when those pretty touch screens fail in vehicles? Anyone realize the costs the dealers will charge to fix em? If you don't fix them, then you get much less on trade because so much stuff does not work.
Sure, you think new its a brilliant ideal, have all you climate, entertainment and internet services connected from one control panel. That is until it breaks.
I use Waze (a navigation app) for every trip I make. Google owns it. I don't know what there EULA says but I'm sure they don't just throw away my position reports. And yet.. I use it for every drive, even when I already know the way. Sometimes I think about the fact I'm basically submitting myself to monitoring. I've even considered piecing together some solution with open street map and my own server to avoid this. But... I get real time data. I get warnings about accidents, traffic jams and speed traps up ahead. Countless times it has saved me hours by routing me around accidents on the expressway. On my drive to work there are miles between some of the exits. Simply getting off if the traffic stops moving is not an option.
I grew up in a small midwestern town, technically a village. As a kid I resented the fact that everything I saw on TV or heard on the radio was directed towards places that were as far away and inaccessible to me as the moon. Now I live in a city where this is not such a problem although on the iternet it still feels like some sites I frequent often forget that silicon valley and NYC are not the entire world.
Similarly there is browser tracking. I do share the concern of many Slashdotters that marketing firms know too much about our personal lives. But.. then again.. I consider myself to be a geek and a maker. I love the fact that 'punch the monkey' and 'little blue pill' popups have for me been replaced with ads for Arduinos, components, oscilloscopes and such. I also enjoy obstacle courses and now I see Tough Mudder ads all over the web letting me know when and where to find the next event.
Sometimes I think that I want to start being more private with my data... but.. I kind of feel like I have moved into a different world that I find more interesting and can better relate to. I don't want to give that up.
collect data you want using Torque Pro
set notifications to yourself using Autotalky Vehicle Owner
I guess these knuckleheads have never heard about invasion of privacy? There must be an opt out for this stuff being shared without a court order! And it has to be hardwired into the car. Collecting the data is one thing, but not letting the driver control the use of it is just stupid!
The obvious way for car companies to monetize driver data, is to very emphatically state "We do not collect nor sell your driver data." Because really, what percentage of a car's sale's price do they think they're going to get by selling data, and how would that compare to lost sales/reduced car value?
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
..If only theyd leave the data from my surfing habits alone - fair swap, chief.
Sadly, they (obviously) aint gonna leave either source unturned/unsorted/unsold.
And, considering the level of 'private' data we already give away? Anyone claiming they will refuse, block this, by driving, etc. - kidding yourself on. Like EULA's, you aint gonna GAF after the initial, ocassional, murmur of disbelief.
Only end users "share" data. Google doesn't. Apple doesn't. It's hardly surprising that the car companies aren't "sharing" data, and want to be compensated for it.
The only surprise is that people let companies monetize data about them.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
>> you might start wondering to what extent the data you generate while driving might be analyzed or shared with advertisers.
Fuck advertisers. I'm FAR more worried about them sharing it with my insurance company and law enforcement.
This is basically a way to force you to have the equivalent of one of those "safe driving" widgets in your OBD2 port all the time, and to completely automate sending you speeding tickets for every small infraction.
So now my car will come with an EULA? What if I don't agree to updated terms? Will they take it back and give me a full refund? Will my vehicle "drive" if I do not agree or opt out? Sounds like another PS3 debacle to me. Let me guess - you will no longer own your car (although you'll certainly pay for it) and of course will not be allowed to do any repairs or maintenance yourself. Better yet, trying to access (or wipe) your own data will equate with piracy. Sorry if I sound jaded/skeptical (I've spent too long on /.)
Here is a link to a handy list of cars that have Electronic Data Recording. For the tech unsavvy who can't figure out how to disable an EDR, it should be possible to use this list when car shopping, at least for the next few years.
Might as well face it I'm addicted to data.
..@ https://owner.ford.com/tools/a... basically says "All your base all belong to us."
By activating or using the Service you expressly agree to the collection, logging, storage, and sharing of your vehicle travel information and other call details for the purposes set forth above in these Terms and Conditions regardless of whether or not you have read them. Further, you agree to obtain the consent to the collection, logging, storage, and sharing of vehicle travel information and other call details for the purposes set forth above from any other person(s) to whom you provide access to and use of the Service via your cell phone. If you don't consent or wish to disclose this information, do not activate or use SYNC Services.
Ford's Service provider 24/7 Customer, Inc. ("24/7"), may record and retain user voice utterances ("recorded utterances"), which are recordings of sounds made when SYNC Services is in listen state and waiting for a user command or response. These recorded utterances may include all sounds in the vehicle, including the voice of the user and voices of other vehicle occupants, while the service is in listen state. 24/7 may also, at Ford's request, randomly record and assemble in sequence, all voice communications made from the time the Service is connected (by the user pressing the VOICE button) to the time the Service is disconnected. ("Whole call recordings (WCRs)"). WCRs will include voice utterances and may include any other sounds in the vehicle, including the voices of the user and other vehicle occupants, during the entire time the Service is connected. Both recorded utterances and WCRs may be associated with you or the cell phone number assigned to the Service. 24/7 records and retains recorded utterances, and WCRs (if Ford requests) for the purpose of improving the performance of voice recognition and to improve the overall design of the user interface. 24/7 Customer, Inc. may share recorded utterances and WCRs with Ford for this purpose, and Ford may use them for this purpose. If you request Operator Assistance, the operator may be provided with your cell phone number and SYNC Service request including your last utterance in order to assist you.
By activating or using the Service, you expressly agree to the recording and sharing of your utterances and WCRs as set forth above for the purposes set forth above in these Terms and Conditions regardless of whether or not you have read them. Further, you agree to obtain the consent to record utterances and WCRs from all vehicle occupants and any person(s) to whom you provide access to and use of the Service via your cell phone. If you don't consent or wish to disclose this information, do not activate or use SYNC Services.
The above and beyond shitty thing is to even find out how many miles you have til the system thinks you need an an oil change you have to upload god knows what info to them. If you don't use Sync services, you can't find out basic info about your car. Kind of stacked the deck, haven't they? Makes me never want to buy a Ford again.
THAT is what some clever hacker needs to do is to hop on the bluetooth stream between their Sync (Sink) and the user's cell phone and dump and decode all that's being sent. Be damned interesting, that's for sure.
> We need to protect our ability to create value.
"Creepy" has gotten awfully hype to drop, but this is what legitimately make my skin crawl.
Like, I can see someone saying it with a straight face. The whole line is euphemism. Like, four or five layers worth. It makes military euphemism look honest. It makes manure look forthright. It's like I'm staring at a knife wound, big slice, blood right flowing out, and the victim doesn't blink. Society doesn't blink.
Too busy creating value out of thin air. Yet on the distal side, the value will have consequence, and it won't be thin air. That will need a source. And, just as natural as water flowing downhill, as natural as entropy, it'll come from the bottom.
This is why I have a 1975 Dodge Dart for trips to my woodland pipe bomb shack.
And performance recordings are copyrightable. All driving data is owned by the author (driver), not the auto company. Legally, they should have no say in how the data is used unless they buy it from the driver.
Seriously, I suspect that Musk will be willing to share his data with Google and Apple. In particular, they would like both to jump into the electric vehicle game. And it is Tesla who has the most data. The other car makers are just now realizing that Tesla is onto something. Look at how GM is pushing Bolt. Volt, leaf, I3, etc. are all POS cars and sales really suck for them. That is why Tesla's sales continue to grow and is now number 1. Interestingly, when Model X hits the market, there is a good chance that Tesla will double in the first year to 100,000 cars / year, which is more than all of the other EV and hybrids COMBINED.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I buy the car then I own the usage data otherwise remove your unathourised snooping gear! You want access to my propertry you pay me,
We will never have cars that drive themselves if automakers are allowed to monetize manual driving.
CAPTCHA: agitator
Since the drivers have no reasonable expectation of privacy concerning this data, it is just one NSL or FISA court authorization away from being collected in bulk.