Foxconn is one company that builds hardware that is tied to the success or failure of Apple in that market. Windows is one company forcing something on many companies some of which may fail despite Microsoft's success because they aren't a supplier to Microsoft, they're a customer. It's a huge difference.
Windows isn't a company, and they aren't forcing anything on to anyone. No-one has to build a Windows 8 certified tablet and moreover no-one even needs to build a Windows 8 tablet at all.
The difference is that Apple, by deciding on closed devices, controlled the behavior of one company, themselves. No product that was previously existing became unavailable due to backdoor deals Apple made with other companies.
And what pre-existing device is there that can run Windows 8 now that will cease to be able to run other OSes once W8 is released?
MS deciding on closed devices is leading them to attempt to control the behavior of many companies.
They aren't controlling them any more than Google does with their certification, if you want their branding you have to adhere to their contract specs.
To the extent they succeed, phones that can run Android will become less available.
No, and the proof is WP7. WP devices cannot run other OSes and are made by manufacturers that also build Android devices, these companies continue to make just as many Android devices today, it has not reduced the number of pre-existing devices.
No. Neither does MS or they wouldn't require devices to be unable to run Android. They are hoping to use their brand recognition and marketing power to make manufacturers drop Android. I don't think they will succeed but they may do a great deal of damage in the attempt.
They did the same thing with Windows Phone, and we've seen no change in the market at all.
This is true, but it prevents people from discovering a new (and possibly/probably/definitely better) operating system, which is anticompetitive because in order for a market to be competitive the consumer has to know about alternatives and choose the best one.
That's exactly the same as with the ipad and any android tablet with a locked bootloader.
This would prevent people from going outside the Windows camp, unless, of course, they wanted to join the Apple camp.
What's wrong with the Android camp?
I don't have a problem with that because Apple does not dictate what other manufacturers do with their devices (patent bullshit aside)
Ok so if MS were to say to the hardware manufacturers (just like apple does to theirs) 'we're going to contract you to build these devices'? That would make it all ok?
whereas Microsoft, due to their monopoly position, can choose to not allow hardware vendors to ship Windows certified tablets
Google can (and does) choose not to allow hardware vendors to ship Google-certified tablets too, they don't have to certify and put their name to devices that don't conform to their standards. Apple doesn't either, in fact they choose not to certify anyone.
"Books are not technically in the EPUB format, but they borrow from it (likely EPUB 3). Certain interactive elements of the books require the files to be done in the slightly different iBooks format", Apple says. Techcrunch coverage
FFS, they sell it. That means they can arbitrarily decide not to sell it. Got red hair? No Windows for you, ginger bastard!
You never followed much of the Microsoft anti-trust trial did you? One of the key elements of the final order that handed down was that MS was to sell Windows licenses to OEMs on a non-discriminatory basis.
Apple's computers are wide open for any OS to be installed.
So are x86 PCs.
The tablets/phones are locked down but it is their own hardware. They aren't bullying other companies into selling their hardware the Apple way. That's the difference.
You mean the hardware these companies are explicitly building for Windows 8? Just like the hardware Foxxcon explicitly builds for Apple.
Thanks captain obvious but you're splitting hairs, the consumer buys a device, they don't care who makes what part of it, so it doesn't make any difference.
Non-Apple hardware manufacturers currently sell hardware capable of running other software than MS.
Yes.
If MS is successful in their strategy they will prevent as many phones being available to run Android, they are definitely trying to take something away.
By what logic do you reach that conclusion? You think Windows 8 is going to be so good that everyone will stop using Android?
MS isn't buying or selling computers. So, no, they aren't.
Are they in a contract with hardware manufacturers? Yes. Are these manufacturers adhering to specifications set out by microsoft for microsoft devices? Yes.
No-one has ever stopped anyone from building an open ARM tablet, and no-one is going to now, in fact there are a myriad of ARM tablets out there and some of them have unlocked bootloaders. Windows 8 is software, it's not enabling new hardware that couldn't already be built if there were demand for it.
What they are doing is effectively contracting companies to build hardware and also distribute it whilst giving them some freedom over the exact specs. Apple contract companies (like Foxxcon) to build their hardware, give them no freedom over the specs and no branding and handle distribution themselves. You find the latter to be acceptable but the former unacceptable?
The difference is: Apple makes and sells iPads. Microsoft doesn't make the hardware. They're leaning on the the manufacturers to prevent any competition.
So if they contracted those companies to build the devices for them to sell that would be totally ok then yeah?
So out of the two options - adding more choice by giving us a Windows 8 tablet; or adding more choice by giving us a tablet that runs Windows 8 but can also run other OSes... You can guess which one I think brings more choice to the table;)
Of course the latter does bring more choice than the former, but the former brings more choice than what we currently have and neither reduces choice. Yes an abolishing of locked bootloaders would bring even more choice, but i don't see that happening any time soon.
Well at least you understand my point, but if that's not how you see it then it appears we have been arguing this from substantially different points of view. That does explain the lengthy discussion.
Question: Is there something stopping all other tablets from running Windows 8? {besides Apple's normal douchebaggery, which is a given?}
Well many of them have locked bootloaders just like these Windows 8-certified tablets will. For the unlocked ones, probably nothing sans drivers.
Well, now who is being obtuse. I thought this was a discussion about the upcoming Windows 8 devices, now suddenly it's RIGHT NOW? Holy shit, way to arbitrarily shift contexts when it suits you for the insult!
You asked where you could buy a Windows 8 ARM license, such a thing does not exist, since it is the topic of discussion surely you know this so why would you ask such a question?
How can they control who buys Windows, with respect to hardware OEMs? Easy, you can only get such licenses from Microsoft. Was that really so hard?
Since when can you only get them from MS? And where do they state that you cannot buy them for hardware not 'Designed for Windows 8'? That covers the marketing sticker, not the license.
That's effectively what they did for a large part of the XBOX and XBOX360's lifetime.
They are loss-leaders, Windows (and Office) are where MS makes the vast majority of their money, they can't just start paying companies to take them.
Never said it was. Tho, having all possibilities would represent a greater freedom of choice, just like a salad bar with more items is greater freedom of choice.
Exactly! Just like a tablet market with more items is greater freedom of choice. The introduction of these Windows 8 tablets gives us more devices on the market than we have now, giving us more choice than we have now, not less.
No, but you keep thinking that's what I'm saying. And allowing all possibilities is not the same thing as the absence of deliberately disallowing them.
Allowing all possibilities is not a requirement in a free market.
You might want to at least talk about the correct subject. Hint: Think PCs, not handhelds.
I am, it seems you don't understand, we're talking about ARM devices, which are most prominently handhelds. PCs are almost exclusively x86 on which UEFI exists but it is mandated in the Windows 8 certification that secureboot be made optional.
I have, but again we're just getting started. Microsoft is in this to win and take the market. It took them an entire generation and billions in losses in the console market to be considered anything more than a failure.
The original xbox was a success, it might not have made them any money but people liked it and people bought it. The same can't be said for WP7.
Right. We can't do that in this situation, which is why this situation exists.
So you're saying we should be able to force mcdonalds to serve spaghetti marinara? And that all new computing devices must allow all of the possibilities of previous ones?
So you think a consortium of vendors got together and asked Microsoft to create Windows 8, and make sure that it is the only OS that can run on their hardware and thereby reduce their market share potential?
No i'm saying Microsoft specifically asked vendors to build a device to run Windows 8.
Slashdot Mirror
Foxconn is one company that builds hardware that is tied to the success or failure of Apple in that market. Windows is one company forcing something on many companies some of which may fail despite Microsoft's success because they aren't a supplier to Microsoft, they're a customer. It's a huge difference.
Windows isn't a company, and they aren't forcing anything on to anyone. No-one has to build a Windows 8 certified tablet and moreover no-one even needs to build a Windows 8 tablet at all.
The difference is that Apple, by deciding on closed devices, controlled the behavior of one company, themselves. No product that was previously existing became unavailable due to backdoor deals Apple made with other companies.
And what pre-existing device is there that can run Windows 8 now that will cease to be able to run other OSes once W8 is released?
MS deciding on closed devices is leading them to attempt to control the behavior of many companies.
They aren't controlling them any more than Google does with their certification, if you want their branding you have to adhere to their contract specs.
To the extent they succeed, phones that can run Android will become less available.
No, and the proof is WP7. WP devices cannot run other OSes and are made by manufacturers that also build Android devices, these companies continue to make just as many Android devices today, it has not reduced the number of pre-existing devices.
No. Neither does MS or they wouldn't require devices to be unable to run Android. They are hoping to use their brand recognition and marketing power to make manufacturers drop Android. I don't think they will succeed but they may do a great deal of damage in the attempt.
They did the same thing with Windows Phone, and we've seen no change in the market at all.
And you really don't see a problem with it.
Obviously logic dictates there's no problem with it.
This is true, but it prevents people from discovering a new (and possibly/probably/definitely better) operating system, which is anticompetitive because in order for a market to be competitive the consumer has to know about alternatives and choose the best one.
That's exactly the same as with the ipad and any android tablet with a locked bootloader.
This would prevent people from going outside the Windows camp, unless, of course, they wanted to join the Apple camp.
What's wrong with the Android camp?
I don't have a problem with that because Apple does not dictate what other manufacturers do with their devices (patent bullshit aside)
Ok so if MS were to say to the hardware manufacturers (just like apple does to theirs) 'we're going to contract you to build these devices'? That would make it all ok?
whereas Microsoft, due to their monopoly position, can choose to not allow hardware vendors to ship Windows certified tablets
Google can (and does) choose not to allow hardware vendors to ship Google-certified tablets too, they don't have to certify and put their name to devices that don't conform to their standards. Apple doesn't either, in fact they choose not to certify anyone.
And it is. iBooks uses ePub, which is HTML5.
"Books are not technically in the EPUB format, but they borrow from it (likely EPUB 3). Certain interactive elements of the books require the files to be done in the slightly different iBooks format", Apple says.
Techcrunch coverage
FFS, they sell it. That means they can arbitrarily decide not to sell it. Got red hair? No Windows for you, ginger bastard!
You never followed much of the Microsoft anti-trust trial did you? One of the key elements of the final order that handed down was that MS was to sell Windows licenses to OEMs on a non-discriminatory basis.
Apple's computers are wide open for any OS to be installed.
So are x86 PCs.
The tablets/phones are locked down but it is their own hardware. They aren't bullying other companies into selling their hardware the Apple way. That's the difference.
You mean the hardware these companies are explicitly building for Windows 8? Just like the hardware Foxxcon explicitly builds for Apple.
No, but they are known to kill THEMSELVES during jainbreaks.
They don't even exist yet, how can they be 'know to' do something if they don't exist?
Yeah you'll probably be able to buy an Open Computer Kit from SparkFun or some little 3-man company in Europe.
A niche catering to a niche, sounds logical.
Apple sells ipads, MS sells software.
Thanks captain obvious but you're splitting hairs, the consumer buys a device, they don't care who makes what part of it, so it doesn't make any difference.
Non-Apple hardware manufacturers currently sell hardware capable of running other software than MS.
Yes.
If MS is successful in their strategy they will prevent as many phones being available to run Android, they are definitely trying to take something away.
By what logic do you reach that conclusion? You think Windows 8 is going to be so good that everyone will stop using Android?
MS isn't buying or selling computers. So, no, they aren't.
Are they in a contract with hardware manufacturers? Yes. Are these manufacturers adhering to specifications set out by microsoft for microsoft devices? Yes.
it's not a question of stopping.. it's a question of default expectations.
Which currently, when looking at ARM tablets, is a locked bootloader and a device that is designed to run a single OS.
No-one has ever stopped anyone from building an open ARM tablet, and no-one is going to now, in fact there are a myriad of ARM tablets out there and some of them have unlocked bootloaders. Windows 8 is software, it's not enabling new hardware that couldn't already be built if there were demand for it.
What they are doing is effectively contracting companies to build hardware and also distribute it whilst giving them some freedom over the exact specs. Apple contract companies (like Foxxcon) to build their hardware, give them no freedom over the specs and no branding and handle distribution themselves. You find the latter to be acceptable but the former unacceptable?
The difference is: Apple makes and sells iPads. Microsoft doesn't make the hardware. They're leaning on the the manufacturers to prevent any competition.
So if they contracted those companies to build the devices for them to sell that would be totally ok then yeah?
The sticker is not optional. If they don't get the sticker, they won't qualifiy for bulk-discount OEM licences
Citation?
So out of the two options - adding more choice by giving us a Windows 8 tablet; or adding more choice by giving us a tablet that runs Windows 8 but can also run other OSes... You can guess which one I think brings more choice to the table ;)
Of course the latter does bring more choice than the former, but the former brings more choice than what we currently have and neither reduces choice. Yes an abolishing of locked bootloaders would bring even more choice, but i don't see that happening any time soon.
Interesting perspective. Not quite how I see it.
Well at least you understand my point, but if that's not how you see it then it appears we have been arguing this from substantially different points of view. That does explain the lengthy discussion.
Question: Is there something stopping all other tablets from running Windows 8? {besides Apple's normal douchebaggery, which is a given?}
Well many of them have locked bootloaders just like these Windows 8-certified tablets will. For the unlocked ones, probably nothing sans drivers.
Well, now who is being obtuse. I thought this was a discussion about the upcoming Windows 8 devices, now suddenly it's RIGHT NOW? Holy shit, way to arbitrarily shift contexts when it suits you for the insult!
You asked where you could buy a Windows 8 ARM license, such a thing does not exist, since it is the topic of discussion surely you know this so why would you ask such a question?
How can they control who buys Windows, with respect to hardware OEMs? Easy, you can only get such licenses from Microsoft. Was that really so hard?
Since when can you only get them from MS? And where do they state that you cannot buy them for hardware not 'Designed for Windows 8'? That covers the marketing sticker, not the license.
That's effectively what they did for a large part of the XBOX and XBOX360's lifetime.
They are loss-leaders, Windows (and Office) are where MS makes the vast majority of their money, they can't just start paying companies to take them.
Never said it was. Tho, having all possibilities would represent a greater freedom of choice, just like a salad bar with more items is greater freedom of choice.
Exactly! Just like a tablet market with more items is greater freedom of choice. The introduction of these Windows 8 tablets gives us more devices on the market than we have now, giving us more choice than we have now, not less.
No, but you keep thinking that's what I'm saying. And allowing all possibilities is not the same thing as the absence of deliberately disallowing them.
Allowing all possibilities is not a requirement in a free market.
You might want to at least talk about the correct subject. Hint: Think PCs, not handhelds.
I am, it seems you don't understand, we're talking about ARM devices, which are most prominently handhelds. PCs are almost exclusively x86 on which UEFI exists but it is mandated in the Windows 8 certification that secureboot be made optional.
I have, but again we're just getting started. Microsoft is in this to win and take the market. It took them an entire generation and billions in losses in the console market to be considered anything more than a failure.
The original xbox was a success, it might not have made them any money but people liked it and people bought it. The same can't be said for WP7.
Right. We can't do that in this situation, which is why this situation exists.
So you're saying we should be able to force mcdonalds to serve spaghetti marinara? And that all new computing devices must allow all of the possibilities of previous ones?
So you think a consortium of vendors got together and asked Microsoft to create Windows 8, and make sure that it is the only OS that can run on their hardware and thereby reduce their market share potential?
No i'm saying Microsoft specifically asked vendors to build a device to run Windows 8.