Easily. Where do you buy licenses for the ARM version of Windows 8?
Are you being obtuse or do you actually have no grasp of the subject at all? Windows 8 doesn't exist, hence you cannot buy it.
They are, but how popular will they be if Microsoft starts subsidizing the tablets to undercut Android, while pressing the "it runs Windows 8 just like your desktop!" angle?
Who knows, but they do have to make some money and Android is basically free. Sure there is the MS Tax, but do you really think MS would get to the point of paying people to use Windows and make a loss?
Hey, give them time. They're just getting started with their rampage.
They already get licensing fees and that doesn't seem to be stopping anyone.
Yeah, Windows owns 90% of the desktop market. And now you can get it on your tablet too!
There is always this supposed view that everyone hates Windows so why would people ditch their Android devices and iPads in favor of it?
The "world" is largely unaware of how computers function as a whole. But it's gotten people like you to come out and defend their spread.
The "world" largely doesn't care.
While such alternates are available. Microsoft is working hard to ensure they cease to be.
Google is working hard to kill MS in business and search too, that doesn't mean they'll succeed but you seem to be implying the ipad and android are knocking on death's door.
But you're assuming a purpose that isn't there. The device is NOT built for the specific purpose of running Windows 8.
Then why doesn't it already exist? If it isn't built for the specific purpose of running Windows 8 then it doesn't need Windows 8.
It is built for the purpose of selling to the public; it just happens that the producer believe that in the choice between the sets "People that want one of these running Windows 8" and "People that want one of these not running Windows 8" the set "People wanting one of these running Windows 8" is larger.
And what's wrong with that? Apple believes that most people want their device running iOS, even though it could easily run Android, and it seems that for the most part they are right.
The producer would most likely happily go after the set "People that want one of these running either Windows 8 or something else", but Microsoft has blocked this avenue.
They already do! Look at all the ARM Android tablets out there!
Actually, we do have that right in certain situations - that's what anti-trust is. So, depending on the situation, people do have that right.
But not in this situation, just like we cannot force apple to allow other OSes on the ipad and that we can't force mcdonalds to sell spaghetti marinara. I understand your point but it isn't as though MS is going to be taking away anything that exists now, just like apple when they released the ipad.
You are comparing Apples(tm) and Windows(tm). What OS does Apple sell? What computer models does Microsoft sell? See the difference?
Why does that matter? If the vendors want to build devices and brand them as Windows 8 devices then why is them being locked down any different to the ipad being locked down?
I rest my case. You are unable to respond without equivocating one position as being a completely different one.
Actually that's what you did with your first post. Your inability to understand the concept of a free market is why you're having so much trouble with this, you don't have the right to force someone to cater for your wants.
So what you're saying is that the GENERAL PURPOSE COMPUTER is somehow specifically designed for only MS Windows?
No, im saying the computer that explicitly states that it is designed for MS Windows is designed for MS Windows, i mean it doesn't exist now even though alternative operating systems do.
Of course Dell and other MFGs don't have to agree to that type of deal with MS, but if they don't like it they don't get to pre-install Windows.
How much market share has windows got on ARM devices?
Your analogy is worse than you think, this is saying: Yeah you COULD use the Screwdriver to tack in nails, or as a small pry bar, or a chisel, but YOU WILL NOT DO SO, because we prevent that by needlessly weakening the tool.
So why'd you buy that tool then? Look at the success of the ipad, it shows that most consumers don't care and those that do care choose an alternative.
I have an entitlement complex?!?! You, sir, have a mental deficiency disorder if you think GENERAL PURPOSE COMPUTING hardware should be RESTRICTED in such a way to allow ONLY ONE SET OF SOFTWARE to run on it.
oh no, i can't install linux on my watch, or my refrigerator, or my ipad...the horror! if i want linux i buy a linux tablet, there are literally millions of them out there.
Microsoft is working very hard to drive Android out of the market. They want the mobile space to reflect the desktop space, only with even less options.
Have you seen the pitiful WP7 market share/growth compared to Android?
Yes. McDonalds not offering chicken would affect your freedom of choice in chicken. You would have fewer places to go for chicken and, depending on where you live, would have to trade more resources for an equal amount of chicken. (McDonald's is the closest "restaurant" to me, if they offer something, then revoke it, I spend more gas to go elsewhere, and that affects the resource management decisions on whether getting chicken is worth it.)
This is not a hard concept, but you seem to want to resist it rather than proceed with the next logical step of our discussion.
You want to force them to cater for whatever you want, the concept of a free market seems to elude you, why is that?
You're not forced to take a drug test, either. Enjoy your freedom of choice in [retail, minimum-wage] employers.
Hey they're restricting my freedom of choice because i choose to be a police officer and take LSD on the job!
I regret to inform you that strawman attacks do not constitute rational debate -- therefore this is not a discussion. When you want to actually have one, let me know. Future fallacious responses will likely be ignored, unless you say something incredibly stupid.
Standard response of a moron who fails to understand the concept of a free market and has an entitlement complex, by not agreeing with me you're restricting my freedom of choice, i choose to have you agree with me and you're restricting that! See how idiotic you're argument is.
There is no requirement that you dominate the market to be guilty of antitrust violations. Agreements between companies to lock out other companies to this extent are going to be in violation of antitrust regulations. This isn't just an exclusivity agreement between the companies, this is an exclusivity agreement that also involves the end user and prevents access to the device by other companies.
But those other companies could use existing Android devices or x86 devices or non-Windows 8 devices or even negotiate with the manufacturers to build devices for their offerings....hell Android was so good that Google didn't even have to do that.
You certainly are aggresively defending Microsoft's actions here.
Aggressive? No. I'm just pointing out that there is obviously a choice here, and some people want everything their way.
No, but nothing is stopping me from using the hammer for whatever purposes I see fit.
Just like jailbreaking an iDevice:)
None of these devices are specifically designed for Windows.
Then why don't they already exist? Linux has existed for decades.
Microsoft is simply requiring that vendors place onerous restrictions on what end users can do in exchange for being able to release a tablet with Windows 8 on it.
In exchange for being able to put a 'Designed for Windows 8' sticker on it, no reason they can't leave that sticker off and do whatever they want or sell the device with Linux or with no OS at all.
I love how the argument suddenly becomes an "entitlement complex" to people defending Microsoft. Simple fact is that this is a problem being created from whole cloth by Microsoft, to take away what we've had for decades while not truly making anyone more secure, but definitely hindering alternative operating system platforms.
The alternatives are already there, the advent of Windows 8 isn't creating new alternatives. What's wrong with existing tablets, or x86 tablets or devices without that W8 sticker?
It does affect your freedom of choice - there are apps you can't run because you're unwilling to deal with Apple's restrictions.
So everything in the world should be everything to everyone so everyone can do everything with anything so as not to restrict freedom of choice?
If Apple bought up an equivalent market share of restaurants, then banned all tomatoes from them, your freedom of choice would be affected
That's like saying my freedom of choice is affected because McDonalds won't make me a chicken parma! They don't have to cater to everyone and the fact that you aren't forced to go there is exactly that freedom of choice. I'm not forced to use Apple or Android or Windows.
Of course you're free to take a walk in your own front yard, just watch out for the tiger pits we put in. And the bear traps. OH, and the unmarked minefield. But we have done absolutely nothing to stop you from taking a nice walk in your own front yard.
Yeah look out, your Windows 8 tablet will try and kill you if modify it, like all the jailbreaking deaths that occurred.
Everything will be "Designed for Windows 8" if it runs Windows.
No it won't.
And Microsoft also doesn't have to sell them licenses they can put on devices that don't meet the guidelines.
Citation? They don't have to give them discounts, but then the manufacturers don't have to sell them with Windows either, they could sell them with Linux.
Google may continue to fight but all MS has to do is hinder and slow it.
Hinder and slow it? Android dominates MS in the tablet market as it is. And of course Google or Apple couldn't do the same to MS.
Go find me a motherboard or graphics card that don't have the logo. Go on, do it. I doubt you can.
Why? The tablet market is already saturated with devices that don't have the Windows logo.
What the hell. Not a few years ago restrictions like this were acknowledged as being bad. Now people can't rush fast enough to defend lock down like this, especially with Microsoft pushing it.
Yeah look at how the ipad has destroyed the world with its lockdown.
The problem is the same as those designed for Windows devices in the mid to late '90s. You would pay about double for that logo even though what you were buying was typically stripped of the usual chips so that the functionality could be run through Windows only drivers.
It's completely different now, iOS and Android dominate the tablet market, there is an abundance of choice for consumers.
It's clear there's antitrust violations involved with this. You cannot force companies to lock out competitors in this fashion.
They aren't, nothing stops them from building non-Windows 8 devices, do you think all the existing linux tablets will just vanish? If MS contracted these companies to build the devices for them that would be ok?
Anyone who thinks this attitude constitutes a solution has a major cognitive logic defect.
Just like anyone who thinks those examples are analogous to this situation. This a device built for a specific purpose (to run Windows 8), if you want to run other operating systems then buy a device designed to do such things.
YOU actually come off as the entitled one here, except that you feel entitlement for the faceless corporations that are only interested in your money, rather than for yourself and your own freedom of market choice.
I do have freedom of market choice fool, no-one is changing that, if i want to run Android I'll buy a tablet that supports it, so not an iPad and Apple restricting the iPad to running iOS doesn't affect my freedom of choice.
Because when you buy a device you should be allowed to modify it. It is your private property at that point. It doesn't matter how many stupid people only use them to show off to friends, if even one single person in the entire world wants to be able to modify their personal property in a way that causes no harm to others then it is their right to do so.
And absolutely nothing whatsoever stops you from doing that, for a real-world example just look at all the ipad/iphone jailbreaking.
Apple does not sell its OS to 3rd party hardware vendors and dictate how to lock down the device.
So what? And they only have to lock it down if it's 'Designed for Windows 8' and if it's ARM, if they don't put on that Windows 8 sticker then they don't have to do anything.
There are, but how long until MS ramps up the pressure to push Android out of the market via legal and possibly illegal means?
And i'm sure Google will just rest on their laurels and just let Android die.
Sure it is. The vendor is being forced by the OS supplier to set the device up in a way that precludes alternatives, and leveraging their monopoly platform to do it.
But it isn't, if you didn't want Windows 8 you wouldn't buy a device designed for it, unless of course you're an idiot.
Yeah, minorities should ALWAYS be ignored. Only the masses should ever get what they want, everyone else can go fuck themselves. Right?
That appears to be what the OEMs think, if they haven't produced a product for a market it indicates that market is likely not viable.
Except that it's not like that at all, you don't buy a hammer if what you need is a screwdriver, just like you don't buy a device specifically designed for an operating system if you want to run a different operating system, you choose a different device. What sort of entitlement complex do you have when you get to the point of thinking companies have to build devices that are everything to everyone?
The issue is that ultimately, they're selling these devices that can't have other OSes installed without cracking them, that's inherently a freedom issue.
So is Apple, but more to the point nothing is stopping Linux tablets from coming to market, in fact there are lots of them out there now. If you buy a 'Designed for Windows 8' device it's no different than buying an iPad with regard to the operating system. I doubt there are many people out there who bought an iPad and are complaining that they can't install Linux on it (me included), so why should it be any different for these 'Designed for Windows 8' devices?
It seems to me this only affects a subset of devices that don't even yet exist. If what you want to do is run linux with virtual box and other assorted unsigned kernel modules then why would you be buying a 'Designed for Windows 8' ARM device? You wouldn't, just like you wouldn't buy an iPad to do those things. You would buy an x86 device, or an Android device, or an ARM device that is not'Designed for Windows 8'.
Again, I understand that perfectly. It's blatantly obvious. Seems like you're trying to be obtuse, so no point continuing this.
No, because you went off with some 'game' about comparing device features, which clearly demonstrates that you had no ability to comprehend my post at all because it wasn't about device features. If you understood it then you wouldn't have posted something that was completely off-topic and irrelevant, but clearly you too dense to even understand that.
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Easily. Where do you buy licenses for the ARM version of Windows 8?
Are you being obtuse or do you actually have no grasp of the subject at all? Windows 8 doesn't exist, hence you cannot buy it.
They are, but how popular will they be if Microsoft starts subsidizing the tablets to undercut Android, while pressing the "it runs Windows 8 just like your desktop!" angle?
Who knows, but they do have to make some money and Android is basically free. Sure there is the MS Tax, but do you really think MS would get to the point of paying people to use Windows and make a loss?
Hey, give them time. They're just getting started with their rampage.
They already get licensing fees and that doesn't seem to be stopping anyone.
Yeah, Windows owns 90% of the desktop market. And now you can get it on your tablet too!
There is always this supposed view that everyone hates Windows so why would people ditch their Android devices and iPads in favor of it?
The "world" is largely unaware of how computers function as a whole. But it's gotten people like you to come out and defend their spread.
The "world" largely doesn't care.
While such alternates are available. Microsoft is working hard to ensure they cease to be.
Google is working hard to kill MS in business and search too, that doesn't mean they'll succeed but you seem to be implying the ipad and android are knocking on death's door.
And I'll be amazed if I ever see an ARM device running Windows 8 that doesn't have the logo on it. I suspect it'll never happen.
I'm sure it will if there's a market for it!
But you're assuming a purpose that isn't there. The device is NOT built for the specific purpose of running Windows 8.
Then why doesn't it already exist? If it isn't built for the specific purpose of running Windows 8 then it doesn't need Windows 8.
It is built for the purpose of selling to the public; it just happens that the producer believe that in the choice between the sets "People that want one of these running Windows 8" and "People that want one of these not running Windows 8" the set "People wanting one of these running Windows 8" is larger.
And what's wrong with that? Apple believes that most people want their device running iOS, even though it could easily run Android, and it seems that for the most part they are right.
The producer would most likely happily go after the set "People that want one of these running either Windows 8 or something else", but Microsoft has blocked this avenue.
They already do! Look at all the ARM Android tablets out there!
Actually, we do have that right in certain situations - that's what anti-trust is. So, depending on the situation, people do have that right.
But not in this situation, just like we cannot force apple to allow other OSes on the ipad and that we can't force mcdonalds to sell spaghetti marinara. I understand your point but it isn't as though MS is going to be taking away anything that exists now, just like apple when they released the ipad.
You are comparing Apples(tm) and Windows(tm). What OS does Apple sell? What computer models does Microsoft sell? See the difference?
Why does that matter? If the vendors want to build devices and brand them as Windows 8 devices then why is them being locked down any different to the ipad being locked down?
I rest my case. You are unable to respond without equivocating one position as being a completely different one.
Actually that's what you did with your first post. Your inability to understand the concept of a free market is why you're having so much trouble with this, you don't have the right to force someone to cater for your wants.
So what you're saying is that the GENERAL PURPOSE COMPUTER is somehow specifically designed for only MS Windows?
No, im saying the computer that explicitly states that it is designed for MS Windows is designed for MS Windows, i mean it doesn't exist now even though alternative operating systems do.
Of course Dell and other MFGs don't have to agree to that type of deal with MS, but if they don't like it they don't get to pre-install Windows.
How much market share has windows got on ARM devices?
Your analogy is worse than you think, this is saying: Yeah you COULD use the Screwdriver to tack in nails, or as a small pry bar, or a chisel, but YOU WILL NOT DO SO, because we prevent that by needlessly weakening the tool.
So why'd you buy that tool then? Look at the success of the ipad, it shows that most consumers don't care and those that do care choose an alternative.
I have an entitlement complex?!?! You, sir, have a mental deficiency disorder if you think GENERAL PURPOSE COMPUTING hardware should be RESTRICTED in such a way to allow ONLY ONE SET OF SOFTWARE to run on it.
oh no, i can't install linux on my watch, or my refrigerator, or my ipad...the horror! if i want linux i buy a linux tablet, there are literally millions of them out there.
Microsoft is working very hard to drive Android out of the market. They want the mobile space to reflect the desktop space, only with even less options.
Have you seen the pitiful WP7 market share/growth compared to Android?
Yes. McDonalds not offering chicken would affect your freedom of choice in chicken. You would have fewer places to go for chicken and, depending on where you live, would have to trade more resources for an equal amount of chicken. (McDonald's is the closest "restaurant" to me, if they offer something, then revoke it, I spend more gas to go elsewhere, and that affects the resource management decisions on whether getting chicken is worth it.)
This is not a hard concept, but you seem to want to resist it rather than proceed with the next logical step of our discussion.
You want to force them to cater for whatever you want, the concept of a free market seems to elude you, why is that?
You're not forced to take a drug test, either. Enjoy your freedom of choice in [retail, minimum-wage] employers.
Hey they're restricting my freedom of choice because i choose to be a police officer and take LSD on the job!
I regret to inform you that strawman attacks do not constitute rational debate -- therefore this is not a discussion. When you want to actually have one, let me know. Future fallacious responses will likely be ignored, unless you say something incredibly stupid.
Standard response of a moron who fails to understand the concept of a free market and has an entitlement complex, by not agreeing with me you're restricting my freedom of choice, i choose to have you agree with me and you're restricting that! See how idiotic you're argument is.
No, it's only if they want that Windows sticker on it and it's an ARM device.
Do you seriously think that MS is going to let a vendor ship Windows on a device without their logo on it? Doubtful.
Why not? How can they control who buys Windows?
We've said that with PCs as well. Look where that went.
Dell tried it and it failed because no-one bought them. But in this case Android tablets already exist and are extremely popular.
Yeah, which is precisely why Microsoft is doing their little patent protection racket against every Android vendor in the market.
And that's resulted in the destruction of Android and booming market dominance of Windows Phone...if you live in a reality that isn't this one.
Go do it. I asked you to go find me core system hardware that doesn't have the Windows logo on it.
Windows owns 90%+ of that market, naturally that's what hardware manufacturers want to tap into, that is NOT the case with tablets.
Sure, it's causing bullshit lock down and walled gardens to spread.
And those are really destroying the world, look at how the world hates them! ...except not really, and those who do just choose the alternatives.
There is no requirement that you dominate the market to be guilty of antitrust violations. Agreements between companies to lock out other companies to this extent are going to be in violation of antitrust regulations. This isn't just an exclusivity agreement between the companies, this is an exclusivity agreement that also involves the end user and prevents access to the device by other companies.
But those other companies could use existing Android devices or x86 devices or non-Windows 8 devices or even negotiate with the manufacturers to build devices for their offerings....hell Android was so good that Google didn't even have to do that.
You certainly are aggresively defending Microsoft's actions here.
Aggressive? No. I'm just pointing out that there is obviously a choice here, and some people want everything their way.
No, but nothing is stopping me from using the hammer for whatever purposes I see fit.
Just like jailbreaking an iDevice :)
None of these devices are specifically designed for Windows.
Then why don't they already exist? Linux has existed for decades.
Microsoft is simply requiring that vendors place onerous restrictions on what end users can do in exchange for being able to release a tablet with Windows 8 on it.
In exchange for being able to put a 'Designed for Windows 8' sticker on it, no reason they can't leave that sticker off and do whatever they want or sell the device with Linux or with no OS at all.
I love how the argument suddenly becomes an "entitlement complex" to people defending Microsoft. Simple fact is that this is a problem being created from whole cloth by Microsoft, to take away what we've had for decades while not truly making anyone more secure, but definitely hindering alternative operating system platforms.
The alternatives are already there, the advent of Windows 8 isn't creating new alternatives. What's wrong with existing tablets, or x86 tablets or devices without that W8 sticker?
It does affect your freedom of choice - there are apps you can't run because you're unwilling to deal with Apple's restrictions.
So everything in the world should be everything to everyone so everyone can do everything with anything so as not to restrict freedom of choice?
If Apple bought up an equivalent market share of restaurants, then banned all tomatoes from them, your freedom of choice would be affected
That's like saying my freedom of choice is affected because McDonalds won't make me a chicken parma! They don't have to cater to everyone and the fact that you aren't forced to go there is exactly that freedom of choice. I'm not forced to use Apple or Android or Windows.
Of course you're free to take a walk in your own front yard, just watch out for the tiger pits we put in. And the bear traps. OH, and the unmarked minefield. But we have done absolutely nothing to stop you from taking a nice walk in your own front yard.
Yeah look out, your Windows 8 tablet will try and kill you if modify it, like all the jailbreaking deaths that occurred.
Yeah because Windows 8 will kill Android and iOS.
Everything will be "Designed for Windows 8" if it runs Windows.
No it won't.
And Microsoft also doesn't have to sell them licenses they can put on devices that don't meet the guidelines.
Citation? They don't have to give them discounts, but then the manufacturers don't have to sell them with Windows either, they could sell them with Linux.
Google may continue to fight but all MS has to do is hinder and slow it.
Hinder and slow it? Android dominates MS in the tablet market as it is. And of course Google or Apple couldn't do the same to MS.
Go find me a motherboard or graphics card that don't have the logo. Go on, do it. I doubt you can.
Why? The tablet market is already saturated with devices that don't have the Windows logo.
What the hell. Not a few years ago restrictions like this were acknowledged as being bad. Now people can't rush fast enough to defend lock down like this, especially with Microsoft pushing it.
Yeah look at how the ipad has destroyed the world with its lockdown.
The problem is the same as those designed for Windows devices in the mid to late '90s. You would pay about double for that logo even though what you were buying was typically stripped of the usual chips so that the functionality could be run through Windows only drivers.
It's completely different now, iOS and Android dominate the tablet market, there is an abundance of choice for consumers.
It's clear there's antitrust violations involved with this. You cannot force companies to lock out competitors in this fashion.
They aren't, nothing stops them from building non-Windows 8 devices, do you think all the existing linux tablets will just vanish? If MS contracted these companies to build the devices for them that would be ok?
Anyone who thinks this attitude constitutes a solution has a major cognitive logic defect.
Just like anyone who thinks those examples are analogous to this situation. This a device built for a specific purpose (to run Windows 8), if you want to run other operating systems then buy a device designed to do such things.
YOU actually come off as the entitled one here, except that you feel entitlement for the faceless corporations that are only interested in your money, rather than for yourself and your own freedom of market choice.
I do have freedom of market choice fool, no-one is changing that, if i want to run Android I'll buy a tablet that supports it, so not an iPad and Apple restricting the iPad to running iOS doesn't affect my freedom of choice.
Because when you buy a device you should be allowed to modify it. It is your private property at that point. It doesn't matter how many stupid people only use them to show off to friends, if even one single person in the entire world wants to be able to modify their personal property in a way that causes no harm to others then it is their right to do so.
And absolutely nothing whatsoever stops you from doing that, for a real-world example just look at all the ipad/iphone jailbreaking.
Apple does not sell its OS to 3rd party hardware vendors and dictate how to lock down the device.
So what? And they only have to lock it down if it's 'Designed for Windows 8' and if it's ARM, if they don't put on that Windows 8 sticker then they don't have to do anything.
There are, but how long until MS ramps up the pressure to push Android out of the market via legal and possibly illegal means?
And i'm sure Google will just rest on their laurels and just let Android die.
Sure it is. The vendor is being forced by the OS supplier to set the device up in a way that precludes alternatives, and leveraging their monopoly platform to do it.
But it isn't, if you didn't want Windows 8 you wouldn't buy a device designed for it, unless of course you're an idiot.
Yeah, minorities should ALWAYS be ignored. Only the masses should ever get what they want, everyone else can go fuck themselves. Right?
That appears to be what the OEMs think, if they haven't produced a product for a market it indicates that market is likely not viable.
Except that it's not like that at all, you don't buy a hammer if what you need is a screwdriver, just like you don't buy a device specifically designed for an operating system if you want to run a different operating system, you choose a different device. What sort of entitlement complex do you have when you get to the point of thinking companies have to build devices that are everything to everyone?
The issue is that ultimately, they're selling these devices that can't have other OSes installed without cracking them, that's inherently a freedom issue.
So is Apple, but more to the point nothing is stopping Linux tablets from coming to market, in fact there are lots of them out there now. If you buy a 'Designed for Windows 8' device it's no different than buying an iPad with regard to the operating system. I doubt there are many people out there who bought an iPad and are complaining that they can't install Linux on it (me included), so why should it be any different for these 'Designed for Windows 8' devices?
It seems to me this only affects a subset of devices that don't even yet exist. If what you want to do is run linux with virtual box and other assorted unsigned kernel modules then why would you be buying a 'Designed for Windows 8' ARM device? You wouldn't, just like you wouldn't buy an iPad to do those things. You would buy an x86 device, or an Android device, or an ARM device that is not 'Designed for Windows 8'.
Again, I understand that perfectly. It's blatantly obvious. Seems like you're trying to be obtuse, so no point continuing this.
No, because you went off with some 'game' about comparing device features, which clearly demonstrates that you had no ability to comprehend my post at all because it wasn't about device features. If you understood it then you wouldn't have posted something that was completely off-topic and irrelevant, but clearly you too dense to even understand that.