Does this release still contain all the spyware, and if so, why would someone want to run it?
Because it runs their programs and they either don't care about telemetry information being sent to Microsoft or just block that with their gateway firewall, that's why. Just like OSX has a keylogger that sends your searches to Apple along with your location and they also send data about what you type to improve auto-correct just like Microsoft does. It's not a big deal, either you accept that it's just anonymized telemetry data or you implement a technical solution to block it. Just complaining about it solves nothing.
The real problem is supposedly educated people here pretending they don't see a difference between telemetry data that Microsoft and Apple send and some Russian hacker stealing your passwords, credit card numbers and banking details.
What you should have asked was whether we want more Windows 10 stories.
It's just more opportunity to bitch about Microsoft. If you've gotten to this point and are still whining about MS but are still using their products then maybe it's time to just accept that you're going to do whatever they tell you to do. It just seems that for all the complaining about Microsoft the people here lack the ability to convince others to switch to any of the viable alternatives and have failed to do this for well over a decade now.
If all you want to do is complain then that's fine but if you are serious about those complaints then why not look to solve the barriers to entry for alternatives. Is Windows really the best desktop operating system out there (and no, users don't care if it's POSIX-compliant or follows the UNIX philosophy)? Or is that just a perception that needs to change? If it's the latter then maybe instead of 500 comments of "M$ is the sucks" and "Winblows 10 spyware embrace extend extinguish" there could be a more focussed discussion on how the negatives are addressed in alternative operating systems and how this assists in building a case for switching. Windows will continue to dominate and you'll continue to be upset about that until you actually decide to do something about it. Otherwise remain relegated to a small corner of the internet where you can all bitch to eachother about something you can't be bothered to address and everybody else will just carry on.
And the first person who sends a cute "I'm going to shoot you with my (water-gun emojii) tomorrow!" gets arrested for making a threat because the receiver doesn't have an iOS device will get to sue Apple for creating an incompatible standard which lead to legal issues.
If that were to actually happen then obviously the problem is with US society. Let's not even get into the fact that Apple is not creating a standard here, nor is it incompatible or even debating the merit of the representation, I could set my font to wingdings and that would likely cause me to misinterpret everything anybody sends me. But the point here is that your society is so shitscared that sending or tweeting::gun::::bomb::::knife:: can get you arrested. You could get away with that in China or Russia...if North Korean's could tweet they could probably get away with it for fuck sake. The problem is that terrorism has gotten the US so scared that that sort of oppression has been normalized and you are demonstrably more worried about the possibility of accidentally tweeting that and getting arrested for it than you are about the fact that being arrested for that is completely fucked up.
ChakraCore for Linux and OS X does not further any MS goal.
Of course it does, what is the point of open source if not to engage the community and work together to develop a better project?
It's just a token gesture to say "look at us, we love other OSes so we can't possibly have a monopoly".
They dont have a monopoly anymore, back then Windows was pretty much the only option for the (Intel) PC but nowadays there are plenty of viable options out there for personal computing. Big box vendors ship Ubuntu systems, Macs use Intel processors now, Chromebooks are on shelves everywhere, Android and iOS tablets are readily available and much of peoples' personal computing is done on their smartphones.
If they want to put their money where their mouth is, they'd contribute to something meaningful like Wine.
Why would they do that? There is no benefit to that at all.
Over there in.NET world, Microsoft's contributions only benefit a small subsection of Windows programs. Nobody else uses it or gives a shit about it.
You could say exactly the same thing about everybody's contributions to desktop Linux systems too.
I think you need to get away from your assumption that Microsoft doing this to somehow please you or show you that they value the same "meaningful" goals as you, which given their actions versus your suggestions it's pretty clear that they don't and aren't trying to.
you understand those two are not even remotely the same thing right?
They are to Microsoft.
Well no, that doesn't make sense. One is an unsubstantiated thing you made up all on your own for some reason and the other is the thing they have stated they are doing, the two things are completely different.
Microsoft is not shy about admitting that they use the data they gather for advertising. You're either new here, or blissfully ignorant of Microsoft's practices.
There is a very big difference between "using the information they gather for advertising" and "mine your data and monitor every keystroke you make and every website you visit, and then sell that information to advertisers", you understand those two are not even remotely the same thing right?
My personal opinion if Microsoft started out with feature parity and dropped the misfeatures (Fugly Metro/Silverlight, malware, Apple style lockin and lack of customization) windows phone would have a healthy market share today.
But who is going to switch to Windows Phone? Android offerred you all that already and it's the incumbent. It was entering a mature market, you're suggesting that their problem was the imitated Apple's business model when they should have imitated Google's but I still don't see how that gives them any advantage.
If that were true you would think we wouldn't be hearing of high profile attempts to switch to Linux desktop failing.
There's no reason to even attempt to change, that's the point. On the rare occasion that it has happened the reason has been down to cheapness but even then the marketshare has remained pretty much flat for the past decade or so.
My opinion is they just need parity with Windows and Linux advocates need to stop pretending it already exists.
What features does Windows have that Linux desktop OSes do not?
General purpose operating systems are mature technology driven by incremental accumulation of dead labor. If you bet on disruptive change you WILL lose.
Smartphones were the same until the iPhone came along. You can't attract users with a "me too" device.
The advertising scheme where they mine your data and monitor every keystroke you make and every website you visit, and then sell that information to advertisers.
Are they actually doing that or are you just extrapolating from the language in the license agreement? And - as an advertiser - where exactly can I buy this information? I don't think you'll find they sell such information to advertisiers at all, happy to see proof though.
The problem Windows Phone had was not that it was bad, it was that it wasn't disruptive or innovative. Apple's iPhone disrupted the market, Google followed their lead and years later Microsoft caught up with an operating system that would have been great had it not been so late to what had by then become a mature market. You need a feature - or set of features - that will entice users to the point they will be willing to abandon their existing applications in favor of your platform and its applications. This is the same reason Linux hasn't been able to supplant Windows on the desktop, it's not that there is anything wrong with it, it's that it doesn't offer anything compelling in innovative or disruptive features. There's no point waiting for Microsoft to screw up, if their past screwups with Windows haven't driven customers to Linux then nothing will, Linux needs that disruptive innovation to capture the users. Windows Phone needed this too, but it didn't have it so it was relegated to that low single-digit marketshare.
Yes, and their operating system is designed around their advertising schemes
What advertising schemes? I have seen literally ONE ad in Windows 10, it was in the start menu under heading "Suggestions" and I turned that off with a switch in Control Panel.
In my book, something that deliberately goes around a firewall is malware.
If something can just "go around" a firewall then it's not really a firewall. Obviously Microsoft's implementation is designed to allow traffic like Windows Update through so you don't accidently block security updates, if you trust that you won't do that then configure your own firewall and in fact you should configure that at the gateway, not on every individual system that way you don't have to replicate your firewall configuration onto all devices and indeed there are many internet-connected devices that don't even have the capability to configure a firewall.
The original claim was that note-taking works. Prove your original claim.
Again you fail to read. I didn't make the that claim, in fact I didn't make any claim at all so I'm not sure what you think "my original claim" is or what you are asking me to prove. I only questioned whether you believe the outcome of your experience is applicable to everybody, and if so obviously the follow up question would have been why.
Well you're the one making the claim, you prove it.
Do you really want a surgeon working on you who spent their time sitting in class taking notes?
What surgeons are there that didn't take any notes in class?
Or hiring a truck driver who can quote all the rules of the road and safety regs but has never actually driven a truck?
Nobody ever suggested such a scenario. How exactly do you come to the conclusion that just because somebody takes notes they have never done any practical learning? That was not written nor implied anywhere yet that's what you got from it. Perhaps you need to write down your interpretation of what I wrote because clearly you didn't understand it.
Or a short-order cook who learned everything by watching The Chew instead of doing practical chemistry experiments with food in the kitchen?
Again, not a scenario anybody suggested.
If you've learned it, you don't need the notes. If you need the notes, you've learned nothing of use.
It's more the process of writing it down in your own interpretation of what was said, something you would very obviously benefit from.
Then the average, non-enterprise user should run Linux instead. These days Dell even sells their mainstream laptop line with Ubuntu as an option, even their workstation line has it.
If the average, non-enterprise user doesn't want Windows then they don't need to have it, there are plenty of viable and accessible options available. Sure there are Macs but let's face it, with a free (of charge) operating system like the various Linux distros that you can get on LiveCDs and USBs to even try without installing it this has been the case for many years now. If your personal computing needs are even more simple then an Android tablet or iPad with a keyboard will probably suffice.
Sure they may 'look' the same, (though flattened UI), but in many apps the manner in which you use the mouse is now adjusted to treat it like your finger.
Certainly nothing I use, can you give examples?
Heck, some desktops you must literally orient your monitor in portrait to accommodate a program's UI.
1. A Start menu that isn't the nemesis of anyone who has ADHD who gets easily distracted.
2. A start menu that works like Windows 7's. I'm not a Luddite. If Microsoft came up with a genuinely better idea, I'd use it happily. Windows 10's start menu is an unambiguous step downward from Windows 7's. And it's butt-ugly, too.
If you don't like the built in one then use a custom shell. This is what we have been doing on Linux for as long as we have had desktop linux and even for many years on Windows with custom shells, sadly this concept of customizing the default system is lost on most Windows users.
3. I want Microsoft to quit crippling desktop apps and making them ugly for the benefit of tablets and phones that statistically, nobody even owns or wants anyway.
What desktop apps are you talking about? The key desktop apps I use: Visual Studio, 3ds max & Photoshop look the same on 10 as they did on 7.
At least with Ubuntu, Unity can be ignored and replaced.
You've always been able to replace the shell on Windows too, it's just that for the most part nobody cared enough to do it.
5. I want Aero Glass back, dammit. I paid $400 extra to get a discrete Quadro 3-D graphics card for my laptop just so I could enjoy Aero Glass in all its hardware-accelerated splendor.
Each to their own but I'm glad they finally got rid of that, it was mostly hated when it came out too.
6. I want Windows Media Center with full CableLabs-certified support for DVR'ing cablecard content flagged COPY_ONCE... Just like Windows 7 has.
That's not really an operating system thing and was pretty limited in its audience even in the US so I can see why they dropped it.
Basically, there's still nothing in it for us workstation/desktop users, it's all about mobile and apps. I'm definitely staying on Windows 7.
What is it you want? Personally I don't think there's much else I need in the OS for workstation tasks and frankly my day to day experience using Windows 10 is pretty much the same as Windows 7, but then again I'm not an IT guy spending time fixing and configuring the OS. The improvements of interest to me there are the DPI scaling for multiple monitors and Bash in Windows (mainly because I work mostly on Linux and OSX so having a common shell is nice).
Him expecting google to make a youtube app for windows phone is exactly like expecting microsoft to make a native port of Office for one or more linux distro's.
Except if you read what he wrote he isn't expecting Google to make a Youtube app for Windows Phone at all. Show me where he said that.
When you read what you responded to (and even quoted) you will see he said: "Google refuses to allow any YouTube apps on Windows Phones" and the reason he said that is because Microsoft (not Google) did make a Youtube app for Windows Phone but Google didn't allow that app to use their Youtube APIs.
OMFG. Are you fucking kidding me? Where's Microsoft Office for Ubuntu (or any linux distro)?
You can use it through MS Office online. Why bother to create a native product for a platform that virtually nobody uses? They create a native product for Windows, OS X, iOS and Android but building native clients for Ubuntu or Solaris or FreeBSD doesn't make sense so they offer the web client. Microsoft aren't alone in doing this, companies like Adobe and Autodesk are the major players in terms of content creation applications and also target those platforms but not the minor players because it isn't worth the effort.
Minor players in the desktop market are much like Meego, Windows Phone and webOS in the mobile space, they are good operating systems but they were late to the game and don't offer any compelling, disruptive features that would entice users - and developers - to switch from the incumbents or even to expend effort to support them.
Slashdot Mirror
You were saying?
I thought it was pretty clear, in fact you even quoted it:
If you've gotten to this point and are still whining about MS but are still using their products
So what exactly are you trying to say?
Does this release still contain all the spyware, and if so, why would someone want to run it?
Because it runs their programs and they either don't care about telemetry information being sent to Microsoft or just block that with their gateway firewall, that's why. Just like OSX has a keylogger that sends your searches to Apple along with your location and they also send data about what you type to improve auto-correct just like Microsoft does. It's not a big deal, either you accept that it's just anonymized telemetry data or you implement a technical solution to block it. Just complaining about it solves nothing.
The real problem is supposedly educated people here pretending they don't see a difference between telemetry data that Microsoft and Apple send and some Russian hacker stealing your passwords, credit card numbers and banking details.
What you should have asked was whether we want more Windows 10 stories.
It's just more opportunity to bitch about Microsoft. If you've gotten to this point and are still whining about MS but are still using their products then maybe it's time to just accept that you're going to do whatever they tell you to do. It just seems that for all the complaining about Microsoft the people here lack the ability to convince others to switch to any of the viable alternatives and have failed to do this for well over a decade now.
If all you want to do is complain then that's fine but if you are serious about those complaints then why not look to solve the barriers to entry for alternatives. Is Windows really the best desktop operating system out there (and no, users don't care if it's POSIX-compliant or follows the UNIX philosophy)? Or is that just a perception that needs to change? If it's the latter then maybe instead of 500 comments of "M$ is the sucks" and "Winblows 10 spyware embrace extend extinguish" there could be a more focussed discussion on how the negatives are addressed in alternative operating systems and how this assists in building a case for switching. Windows will continue to dominate and you'll continue to be upset about that until you actually decide to do something about it. Otherwise remain relegated to a small corner of the internet where you can all bitch to eachother about something you can't be bothered to address and everybody else will just carry on.
And the first person who sends a cute "I'm going to shoot you with my (water-gun emojii) tomorrow!" gets arrested for making a threat because the receiver doesn't have an iOS device will get to sue Apple for creating an incompatible standard which lead to legal issues.
If that were to actually happen then obviously the problem is with US society. Let's not even get into the fact that Apple is not creating a standard here, nor is it incompatible or even debating the merit of the representation, I could set my font to wingdings and that would likely cause me to misinterpret everything anybody sends me. But the point here is that your society is so shitscared that sending or tweeting ::gun:: ::bomb:: ::knife:: can get you arrested. You could get away with that in China or Russia...if North Korean's could tweet they could probably get away with it for fuck sake. The problem is that terrorism has gotten the US so scared that that sort of oppression has been normalized and you are demonstrably more worried about the possibility of accidentally tweeting that and getting arrested for it than you are about the fact that being arrested for that is completely fucked up.
We'll add sarcasm tags for you next time.
Insensitive to amputees. Try again.
ChakraCore for Linux and OS X does not further any MS goal.
Of course it does, what is the point of open source if not to engage the community and work together to develop a better project?
It's just a token gesture to say "look at us, we love other OSes so we can't possibly have a monopoly".
They dont have a monopoly anymore, back then Windows was pretty much the only option for the (Intel) PC but nowadays there are plenty of viable options out there for personal computing. Big box vendors ship Ubuntu systems, Macs use Intel processors now, Chromebooks are on shelves everywhere, Android and iOS tablets are readily available and much of peoples' personal computing is done on their smartphones.
If they want to put their money where their mouth is, they'd contribute to something meaningful like Wine.
Why would they do that? There is no benefit to that at all.
Over there in .NET world, Microsoft's contributions only benefit a small subsection of Windows programs. Nobody else uses it or gives a shit about it.
You could say exactly the same thing about everybody's contributions to desktop Linux systems too.
I think you need to get away from your assumption that Microsoft doing this to somehow please you or show you that they value the same "meaningful" goals as you, which given their actions versus your suggestions it's pretty clear that they don't and aren't trying to.
Soon all those Windows vulnerabilities will be available on Linux too.
Not quite sure what you mean by that.
Do they allow you to compile from source at least or is it a closed binary that needs root rights?
The release is source, it's right here https://github.com/microsoft/ChakraCore licensed under MIT.
you understand those two are not even remotely the same thing right?
They are to Microsoft.
Well no, that doesn't make sense. One is an unsubstantiated thing you made up all on your own for some reason and the other is the thing they have stated they are doing, the two things are completely different.
Microsoft is not shy about admitting that they use the data they gather for advertising. You're either new here, or blissfully ignorant of Microsoft's practices.
There is a very big difference between "using the information they gather for advertising" and "mine your data and monitor every keystroke you make and every website you visit, and then sell that information to advertisers", you understand those two are not even remotely the same thing right?
And how much of their other products have any significant revenue on non-Windows platforms?
Not many, hence the move to support other platforms and start making that happen.
My personal opinion if Microsoft started out with feature parity and dropped the misfeatures (Fugly Metro/Silverlight, malware, Apple style lockin and lack of customization) windows phone would have a healthy market share today.
But who is going to switch to Windows Phone? Android offerred you all that already and it's the incumbent. It was entering a mature market, you're suggesting that their problem was the imitated Apple's business model when they should have imitated Google's but I still don't see how that gives them any advantage.
If that were true you would think we wouldn't be hearing of high profile attempts to switch to Linux desktop failing.
There's no reason to even attempt to change, that's the point. On the rare occasion that it has happened the reason has been down to cheapness but even then the marketshare has remained pretty much flat for the past decade or so.
My opinion is they just need parity with Windows and Linux advocates need to stop pretending it already exists.
What features does Windows have that Linux desktop OSes do not?
General purpose operating systems are mature technology driven by incremental accumulation of dead labor. If you bet on disruptive change you WILL lose.
Smartphones were the same until the iPhone came along. You can't attract users with a "me too" device.
The advertising scheme where they mine your data and monitor every keystroke you make and every website you visit, and then sell that information to advertisers.
Are they actually doing that or are you just extrapolating from the language in the license agreement? And - as an advertiser - where exactly can I buy this information? I don't think you'll find they sell such information to advertisiers at all, happy to see proof though.
The problem Windows Phone had was not that it was bad, it was that it wasn't disruptive or innovative. Apple's iPhone disrupted the market, Google followed their lead and years later Microsoft caught up with an operating system that would have been great had it not been so late to what had by then become a mature market. You need a feature - or set of features - that will entice users to the point they will be willing to abandon their existing applications in favor of your platform and its applications. This is the same reason Linux hasn't been able to supplant Windows on the desktop, it's not that there is anything wrong with it, it's that it doesn't offer anything compelling in innovative or disruptive features. There's no point waiting for Microsoft to screw up, if their past screwups with Windows haven't driven customers to Linux then nothing will, Linux needs that disruptive innovation to capture the users. Windows Phone needed this too, but it didn't have it so it was relegated to that low single-digit marketshare.
Yes, and their operating system is designed around their advertising schemes
What advertising schemes? I have seen literally ONE ad in Windows 10, it was in the start menu under heading "Suggestions" and I turned that off with a switch in Control Panel.
In my book, something that deliberately goes around a firewall is malware.
If something can just "go around" a firewall then it's not really a firewall. Obviously Microsoft's implementation is designed to allow traffic like Windows Update through so you don't accidently block security updates, if you trust that you won't do that then configure your own firewall and in fact you should configure that at the gateway, not on every individual system that way you don't have to replicate your firewall configuration onto all devices and indeed there are many internet-connected devices that don't even have the capability to configure a firewall.
The original claim was that note-taking works. Prove your original claim.
Again you fail to read. I didn't make the that claim, in fact I didn't make any claim at all so I'm not sure what you think "my original claim" is or what you are asking me to prove. I only questioned whether you believe the outcome of your experience is applicable to everybody, and if so obviously the follow up question would have been why.
Yes. Prove otherwise.
Well you're the one making the claim, you prove it.
Do you really want a surgeon working on you who spent their time sitting in class taking notes?
What surgeons are there that didn't take any notes in class?
Or hiring a truck driver who can quote all the rules of the road and safety regs but has never actually driven a truck?
Nobody ever suggested such a scenario. How exactly do you come to the conclusion that just because somebody takes notes they have never done any practical learning? That was not written nor implied anywhere yet that's what you got from it. Perhaps you need to write down your interpretation of what I wrote because clearly you didn't understand it.
Or a short-order cook who learned everything by watching The Chew instead of doing practical chemistry experiments with food in the kitchen?
Again, not a scenario anybody suggested.
If you've learned it, you don't need the notes. If you need the notes, you've learned nothing of use.
It's more the process of writing it down in your own interpretation of what was said, something you would very obviously benefit from.
Then the average, non-enterprise user should run Linux instead. These days Dell even sells their mainstream laptop line with Ubuntu as an option, even their workstation line has it.
If the average, non-enterprise user doesn't want Windows then they don't need to have it, there are plenty of viable and accessible options available. Sure there are Macs but let's face it, with a free (of charge) operating system like the various Linux distros that you can get on LiveCDs and USBs to even try without installing it this has been the case for many years now. If your personal computing needs are even more simple then an Android tablet or iPad with a keyboard will probably suffice.
note taking is a poor substitute to active learning.
Are you suggesting that is a fact and applies to everybody in all cases?
Sure they may 'look' the same, (though flattened UI), but in many apps the manner in which you use the mouse is now adjusted to treat it like your finger.
Certainly nothing I use, can you give examples?
Heck, some desktops you must literally orient your monitor in portrait to accommodate a program's UI.
Really? What are some examples of this?
1. A Start menu that isn't the nemesis of anyone who has ADHD who gets easily distracted.
2. A start menu that works like Windows 7's. I'm not a Luddite. If Microsoft came up with a genuinely better idea, I'd use it happily. Windows 10's start menu is an unambiguous step downward from Windows 7's. And it's butt-ugly, too.
If you don't like the built in one then use a custom shell. This is what we have been doing on Linux for as long as we have had desktop linux and even for many years on Windows with custom shells, sadly this concept of customizing the default system is lost on most Windows users.
3. I want Microsoft to quit crippling desktop apps and making them ugly for the benefit of tablets and phones that statistically, nobody even owns or wants anyway.
What desktop apps are you talking about? The key desktop apps I use: Visual Studio, 3ds max & Photoshop look the same on 10 as they did on 7.
At least with Ubuntu, Unity can be ignored and replaced.
You've always been able to replace the shell on Windows too, it's just that for the most part nobody cared enough to do it.
5. I want Aero Glass back, dammit. I paid $400 extra to get a discrete Quadro 3-D graphics card for my laptop just so I could enjoy Aero Glass in all its hardware-accelerated splendor.
Each to their own but I'm glad they finally got rid of that, it was mostly hated when it came out too.
6. I want Windows Media Center with full CableLabs-certified support for DVR'ing cablecard content flagged COPY_ONCE... Just like Windows 7 has.
That's not really an operating system thing and was pretty limited in its audience even in the US so I can see why they dropped it.
Basically, there's still nothing in it for us workstation/desktop users, it's all about mobile and apps. I'm definitely staying on Windows 7.
What is it you want? Personally I don't think there's much else I need in the OS for workstation tasks and frankly my day to day experience using Windows 10 is pretty much the same as Windows 7, but then again I'm not an IT guy spending time fixing and configuring the OS. The improvements of interest to me there are the DPI scaling for multiple monitors and Bash in Windows (mainly because I work mostly on Linux and OSX so having a common shell is nice).
Him expecting google to make a youtube app for windows phone is exactly like expecting microsoft to make a native port of Office for one or more linux distro's.
Except if you read what he wrote he isn't expecting Google to make a Youtube app for Windows Phone at all. Show me where he said that.
When you read what you responded to (and even quoted) you will see he said: "Google refuses to allow any YouTube apps on Windows Phones" and the reason he said that is because Microsoft (not Google) did make a Youtube app for Windows Phone but Google didn't allow that app to use their Youtube APIs.
OMFG. Are you fucking kidding me? Where's Microsoft Office for Ubuntu (or any linux distro)?
You can use it through MS Office online. Why bother to create a native product for a platform that virtually nobody uses? They create a native product for Windows, OS X, iOS and Android but building native clients for Ubuntu or Solaris or FreeBSD doesn't make sense so they offer the web client. Microsoft aren't alone in doing this, companies like Adobe and Autodesk are the major players in terms of content creation applications and also target those platforms but not the minor players because it isn't worth the effort.
Minor players in the desktop market are much like Meego, Windows Phone and webOS in the mobile space, they are good operating systems but they were late to the game and don't offer any compelling, disruptive features that would entice users - and developers - to switch from the incumbents or even to expend effort to support them.