It's under the all applications part of the start screen, it does have a tile - it just isn't pinned to the main screen - because it's added to the start screen the same way it is added to the start menu in Windows 7 (that little arrow at the bottom of the start screen reveals all installed applications). Also you could have always used search to find it, it comes back to these people who are so indoctrinated into the Windows way of doing things that any change there renders them baffled. If you were to install Office on OS X you wouldn't get a dock icon or desktop icon either, you have to browse the application folder (start menu folder on Windows) or use Spotlight (search on Windows) to find it.
I don't like the start screen on desktops but its replacement of the start menu has proven just how incompetent and dependent on one specific way of doing things many computer users are.
Search is more efficient when you know what you're looking for. The big deal about the start menu is that it is discoverable (and it's discoverable without being jarring, or having a "user experience").
So how do you manage on an operating system OS X then that doesn't have a start menu?
I'm talking about the one he mentioned, that Clevo. I agree, my macbook pro can play almost all games reasonably enough, but it's not one of those high powered (relatively speaking) gaming laptops.
So, because one of my examples is, in your eyes, invalid, despite all of my valid examples, my entire point is invalidated?
No, I never said that. In fact I even clarified that due to my inexperience with Android I can't comment on that and your point may very well be completely valid with respect to Android.
Reading comprehension fail, you only addressed one of the points, so what was the cost of training? I mean you've obviously never done the process if you actually believe technically competent people need training to learn how to update an iOS device. Moreover the fact that service exists doesn't mean people use it, so how many people actually use it? Come on, let's see your evidence.
And I'm not questioning those examples, I'm questioning one of your examples, which doesn't work as an example if it is invalid so show me the evidence that it is valid, but you can't and continue to fail to do so.
If you can explain how my conclusion, that enough people need help with their devices (and hell, we'll limit it specifically to upgrading their iOS devices, because what the hell, why not?) that it is profitable to train people to provide and market the service, is unreasonable, please do so.
Ok show me the numbers then: Show me the cost of training. Given that it's a one click process I'm going to assume the cost is virtually zero. Show me the cost of paying somebody to upgrade your iOS device for you.
That said, I'm pretty sure you did, in fact, assert that iOS users upgrade their own devices, the the point of there not being a statistically significant subset of iOS users who do not. Ahh, yes, right here, where you say
those who aren't capable of updating are the extreme minority.
In that they are upgraded, whether it's by themselves or somebody else is not relevant, though i suspect given the triviality of it it probably is themselves.
Also, day 1 adoption was 18.2%, it's right there, clear as day in the chart in the article you provided; the chart is a comparison of iOS6 and iOS7 first-day adoption rates and the second line on the chart is iOS6.
Read the whole page. That is one of the sources, interpolate between them if you wish. Either way for a single day that is a massive adoption rate.
And, honestly, I miss a good solid debate.
Then how about you start, provide evidence to support your position...go!
That was your artificial contribution to this conversation, was it not?
No it was not.
And still, even when you skew the conversation toward your own position
Wrong, you started the conversation on this topic, I singled out the iOS component because I don't know the process on Android so cannot comment on it.
all you can do is point to numbers that show... well, nothing, really, since *anyone* with physical access to the device and the owner's permission can upgrade it.
While they could potentially be that the simplicity of the process makes it highly doubtful, moreover you show absolutely nothing whatsoever to support your assertion.
There are a nontrivial number of people, that is to say more than a handful, in fact, a statistically significant
If this group is indeed statistically significant then show me the statistic that among iOS users this group exists that "freaks out" when presented with a dialog notifying them of an update. I doubt the existence of such a statistically significant group given the simplicity of the task and options made available. Moreover your anecdotal evidence is of people that do call tech support, they do indeed choose one of the valid options you presented and are not ones that "use it anyway".
Spend a month in tech support, that'll knock you down a peg or two.
No i'm not particularly surprised that the vast majority of people who call tech support need tech support or that a non-trivial amount of those are for simple requests but I wouldn't be so silly as to extrapolate that to cover the broader populace.
There are a nontrivial number of people out there who want to use a computer, but don't want the complexity of a computer, so they opt for a tablet. A large subset of those people seriously can not come to terms with anything "computery" and, for them, it doesn't matter how simple and clear the instructions in a dialog are, they freak out because it popped up in the first place and call someone who "knows these things" to come read it to them.
Citation? Or numbers on what these "non trivial numbers" are? Because frankly your anecdotal evidence only serves to prove you're constantly in the presence of retards and you justify your extrapolation of that "evidence" with the assumption that such people get by by having others respond to even the simplest things for them.
Quite simply that is absolute rubbish, the majority of people will not "freak out" when they get a dialog to update, even the most computer illiterate person can come to terms with a modal dialog informing them of an update. I feel sorry for you being confined to the company of nitwits, the rest of the world isn't that stupid.
All that's needed is a simple editable menu for application links. It's not that hard.
Why is that "needed"? How on earth do you manage on platforms like OS X that don't have a start menu?
As far as text search goes, users shouldn't need it because your menu is neat and orderly and easy to read. Sticking a search box onto widgets just says loudly and clearly that the design has failed.
Search is more efficient than clicking, scrolling and browsing lists of things. That's why it's included in dialogs like Windows' Control Panel, OS X's System Preferences and Ubuntu's Control Center.
I'm not a fan of the start screen on desktop computers but then again the start menu is too inefficient anyway so it being replaced makes little difference.
And what was the percentage in the following week?
I don't have the week-by-week numbers but adoption is close to 90% presently and frankly given the simplicity of the update process it is easy to see why.
And it's not about superiority, but the social awkwardness I was referring to was making assumptions like the one you seem to be making by implying that the majority of users are as technically inclined as you and quoting news articles, rather than real-world experience, as your source; a sign that you don't have said experience.
No it is that the "real world experience" you claim to have is not representative of the real world since the numbers prove that the vast majority of people are indeed upgrading.
How many of those 87% of iDevices were upgraded by a friend or family member of the user, or by GeekSquad or some other service that exists for the purpose of gouging device users of their hard-earned cash in exchange for clicking 2 or 3 buttons, and how many were upgraded by the user? Your sources dont, and can't, say.
The dialog tells you there is an update, you simply click Install or Later and you actually believe that when presented with such a dialog that most people will have no idea what to do? Really? Come on, don't be an idiot. If you are surrounded by people who are unable to comprehend that then you are surrounded by mental defectives, that is not representative of the general population.
Either you know full-well that there exist a nontrivial number of people who can't wrap their head around what to do when their iPad tells them an OS update is available, if you're so socially inept that you live in a fantasy world where everyone else is just like you.
No, you simply have an over-inflated opinion of yourself and those you deem "technically capable" because the numbers don't lie, those who aren't capable of updating are the extreme minority.
You don't need to perpetuate the idiotic falsehood that only socially awkward people know what to do when their device says an update is available, if you need to feel superior in that manner to justify your social awkwardness that's your problem but that perception is not reality, there was 25-35% adoption of iOS7 in one day for god sake.
Yes, people need hand-holding level support for their iPads
In what way? And who are these "people"? You mean all people, you included? Or just a subset that you've found that you've extrapolated? I have had the odd question about what a feature does or say how to set up email on a Galaxy after having an iPhone but certainly nothing like ongoing maintenance or servicing.
Exactly what would you say servicing and maintenance for an ipad would be that "people" aren't capable of?
The point is that gaming laptops are pretty useless, being over-priced, underpowered and - at nearly 6kg - not exactly portable. Sure some people will put up with the bulk, high cost, short battery life and noise for semi-portable gaming but it's not a great solution.
And Windows 8 as is is ONLY oriented towards tablets.
You realise it has a desktop right? That all your applications still run and operate the same as they did on Windows 7 right? Yes *one* of the methods used to launch applications has changed to be touch-friendly but that's it.
It's funny the way people can evangelize the linux desktop or OS X yet those same people are completely befuddled and useless when you take their start menu away. Yes it was a change, yes that change was good if you wanted to use Windows on a tablet and no it wasn't particularly useful if you wanted to use Windows on a desktop but if you boot-to-desktop then it's not much different to OS X. You have the Taskbar (Dock), Desktop (Desktop), Win+S for search (Cmd+Space for spotlight) and you have the Start Screen (Launchpad), it really isn't that hard.
I agree, I think the objection is to how intrusive and obvious it is. If somebody surreptitiously records you on their smartphone it's probably not that much of an issue even if you do happen to notice, but if somebody is recording you by holding their phone up in your face it's much worse.
Slashdot Mirror
I see the only major impact of this being that people can now leave pseudonymous comments on Youtube again.
It's under the all applications part of the start screen, it does have a tile - it just isn't pinned to the main screen - because it's added to the start screen the same way it is added to the start menu in Windows 7 (that little arrow at the bottom of the start screen reveals all installed applications). Also you could have always used search to find it, it comes back to these people who are so indoctrinated into the Windows way of doing things that any change there renders them baffled. If you were to install Office on OS X you wouldn't get a dock icon or desktop icon either, you have to browse the application folder (start menu folder on Windows) or use Spotlight (search on Windows) to find it.
I don't like the start screen on desktops but its replacement of the start menu has proven just how incompetent and dependent on one specific way of doing things many computer users are.
Search is more efficient when you know what you're looking for. The big deal about the start menu is that it is discoverable (and it's discoverable without being jarring, or having a "user experience").
So how do you manage on an operating system OS X then that doesn't have a start menu?
I'm talking about the one he mentioned, that Clevo. I agree, my macbook pro can play almost all games reasonably enough, but it's not one of those high powered (relatively speaking) gaming laptops.
So, because one of my examples is, in your eyes, invalid, despite all of my valid examples, my entire point is invalidated?
No, I never said that. In fact I even clarified that due to my inexperience with Android I can't comment on that and your point may very well be completely valid with respect to Android.
Reading comprehension fail, you only addressed one of the points, so what was the cost of training? I mean you've obviously never done the process if you actually believe technically competent people need training to learn how to update an iOS device. Moreover the fact that service exists doesn't mean people use it, so how many people actually use it? Come on, let's see your evidence.
And I'm not questioning those examples, I'm questioning one of your examples, which doesn't work as an example if it is invalid so show me the evidence that it is valid, but you can't and continue to fail to do so.
If you can explain how my conclusion, that enough people need help with their devices (and hell, we'll limit it specifically to upgrading their iOS devices, because what the hell, why not?) that it is profitable to train people to provide and market the service, is unreasonable, please do so.
Ok show me the numbers then:
Show me the cost of training. Given that it's a one click process I'm going to assume the cost is virtually zero.
Show me the cost of paying somebody to upgrade your iOS device for you.
That said, I'm pretty sure you did, in fact, assert that iOS users upgrade their own devices, the the point of there not being a statistically significant subset of iOS users who do not. Ahh, yes, right here, where you say
those who aren't capable of updating are the extreme minority.
In that they are upgraded, whether it's by themselves or somebody else is not relevant, though i suspect given the triviality of it it probably is themselves.
Where, in that post, do I say that these users aren't taking steps to maintain their (in this case) websites? Simply put, I don't;
So it's not relevant, since we aren't talking about those who do take steps to maintain their devices.
That isn't the claim I made you limited this to iOS devices while I provided iPads and Android devices as examples
Then show me the evidence for including iPads, no more weasel words, just evidence, come on.
You have an assertion, that 87% of iOS device users upgraded their own devices
False, I never said such a thing.
Yes and Androids, but since I don't know much about that process I'm focusing on the iPads component.
Also, day 1 adoption was 18.2%, it's right there, clear as day in the chart in the article you provided; the chart is a comparison of iOS6 and iOS7 first-day adoption rates and the second line on the chart is iOS6.
Read the whole page. That is one of the sources, interpolate between them if you wish. Either way for a single day that is a massive adoption rate.
And, honestly, I miss a good solid debate.
Then how about you start, provide evidence to support your position...go!
Ahh yes, people who call tech support are, in fact, exercising one of the three options I initially provided. Wherein did I say they were not?
You wrote about such anecdotal evidence here, or was that just an irrelevant piece of padding for your post?
There is also, clearly, a large subset who do not, or botnets, spambots, and the like would be much less prevalent than they are.
I don't believe there are any spambots or botnets run on iOS devices, could you provide evidence of such things please?
I don't have hard numbers on this
Then why did you make the assertion? I'm questioning your assertion so I'd be happy to hear evidence supporting your argument but you have none.
Also... when did this discussion become just about iOS devices?
At the time you posted this: Yes, people need hand-holding level support for their iPads and Androids and you're naive if you think they don't.
That was your artificial contribution to this conversation, was it not?
No it was not.
And still, even when you skew the conversation toward your own position
Wrong, you started the conversation on this topic, I singled out the iOS component because I don't know the process on Android so cannot comment on it.
all you can do is point to numbers that show... well, nothing, really, since *anyone* with physical access to the device and the owner's permission can upgrade it.
While they could potentially be that the simplicity of the process makes it highly doubtful, moreover you show absolutely nothing whatsoever to support your assertion.
There are a nontrivial number of people, that is to say more than a handful, in fact, a statistically significant
If this group is indeed statistically significant then show me the statistic that among iOS users this group exists that "freaks out" when presented with a dialog notifying them of an update. I doubt the existence of such a statistically significant group given the simplicity of the task and options made available. Moreover your anecdotal evidence is of people that do call tech support, they do indeed choose one of the valid options you presented and are not ones that "use it anyway".
Spend a month in tech support, that'll knock you down a peg or two.
No i'm not particularly surprised that the vast majority of people who call tech support need tech support or that a non-trivial amount of those are for simple requests but I wouldn't be so silly as to extrapolate that to cover the broader populace.
There are a nontrivial number of people out there who want to use a computer, but don't want the complexity of a computer, so they opt for a tablet. A large subset of those people seriously can not come to terms with anything "computery" and, for them, it doesn't matter how simple and clear the instructions in a dialog are, they freak out because it popped up in the first place and call someone who "knows these things" to come read it to them.
Citation? Or numbers on what these "non trivial numbers" are? Because frankly your anecdotal evidence only serves to prove you're constantly in the presence of retards and you justify your extrapolation of that "evidence" with the assumption that such people get by by having others respond to even the simplest things for them.
Quite simply that is absolute rubbish, the majority of people will not "freak out" when they get a dialog to update, even the most computer illiterate person can come to terms with a modal dialog informing them of an update. I feel sorry for you being confined to the company of nitwits, the rest of the world isn't that stupid.
All that's needed is a simple editable menu for application links. It's not that hard.
Why is that "needed"? How on earth do you manage on platforms like OS X that don't have a start menu?
As far as text search goes, users shouldn't need it because your menu is neat and orderly and easy to read. Sticking a search box onto widgets just says loudly and clearly that the design has failed.
Search is more efficient than clicking, scrolling and browsing lists of things. That's why it's included in dialogs like Windows' Control Panel, OS X's System Preferences and Ubuntu's Control Center.
I'm not a fan of the start screen on desktop computers but then again the start menu is too inefficient anyway so it being replaced makes little difference.
And what was the percentage in the following week?
I don't have the week-by-week numbers but adoption is close to 90% presently and frankly given the simplicity of the update process it is easy to see why.
And it's not about superiority, but the social awkwardness I was referring to was making assumptions like the one you seem to be making by implying that the majority of users are as technically inclined as you and quoting news articles, rather than real-world experience, as your source; a sign that you don't have said experience.
No it is that the "real world experience" you claim to have is not representative of the real world since the numbers prove that the vast majority of people are indeed upgrading.
How many of those 87% of iDevices were upgraded by a friend or family member of the user, or by GeekSquad or some other service that exists for the purpose of gouging device users of their hard-earned cash in exchange for clicking 2 or 3 buttons, and how many were upgraded by the user? Your sources dont, and can't, say.
The dialog tells you there is an update, you simply click Install or Later and you actually believe that when presented with such a dialog that most people will have no idea what to do? Really? Come on, don't be an idiot. If you are surrounded by people who are unable to comprehend that then you are surrounded by mental defectives, that is not representative of the general population.
To be clear, I have with a Windows tablet and a touch-enabled Windows laptop and I don't mind the interface on either;
Same.
but I absolutely abhor it on non-touch equipment.
Agreed (insofar as the start screen is concerned).
Either you know full-well that there exist a nontrivial number of people who can't wrap their head around what to do when their iPad tells them an OS update is available, if you're so socially inept that you live in a fantasy world where everyone else is just like you.
No, you simply have an over-inflated opinion of yourself and those you deem "technically capable" because the numbers don't lie, those who aren't capable of updating are the extreme minority.
You don't need to perpetuate the idiotic falsehood that only socially awkward people know what to do when their device says an update is available, if you need to feel superior in that manner to justify your social awkwardness that's your problem but that perception is not reality, there was 25-35% adoption of iOS7 in one day for god sake.
Yes, people need hand-holding level support for their iPads
In what way? And who are these "people"? You mean all people, you included? Or just a subset that you've found that you've extrapolated? I have had the odd question about what a feature does or say how to set up email on a Galaxy after having an iPhone but certainly nothing like ongoing maintenance or servicing.
Exactly what would you say servicing and maintenance for an ipad would be that "people" aren't capable of?
The point is that gaming laptops are pretty useless, being over-priced, underpowered and - at nearly 6kg - not exactly portable. Sure some people will put up with the bulk, high cost, short battery life and noise for semi-portable gaming but it's not a great solution.
And Windows 8 as is is ONLY oriented towards tablets.
You realise it has a desktop right? That all your applications still run and operate the same as they did on Windows 7 right? Yes *one* of the methods used to launch applications has changed to be touch-friendly but that's it.
It's funny the way people can evangelize the linux desktop or OS X yet those same people are completely befuddled and useless when you take their start menu away. Yes it was a change, yes that change was good if you wanted to use Windows on a tablet and no it wasn't particularly useful if you wanted to use Windows on a desktop but if you boot-to-desktop then it's not much different to OS X. You have the Taskbar (Dock), Desktop (Desktop), Win+S for search (Cmd+Space for spotlight) and you have the Start Screen (Launchpad), it really isn't that hard.
JavaScript is so badly designed that it really needs a replacement.
What is so bad about it?
I agree, I think the objection is to how intrusive and obvious it is. If somebody surreptitiously records you on their smartphone it's probably not that much of an issue even if you do happen to notice, but if somebody is recording you by holding their phone up in your face it's much worse.