I really doubt that. I was mentioning parts that won't be out till later this year too, so in the interests of profit, will still be expensive. P3 with SSE at 600MHz on a 133MHz bus won't be out till Q3, right before the PSX2 comes out in Japan. Don't be surprised if Intel sells the CPUs for a good premium, like 500$. And the comparable V4 or TNT3 will still be a good 200$, alongside the cost of the rest of the PC.
I'm curious why you would need to believe these performance numbers to be interested in the system?
If it is even twice as powerful as the original PSX, or 2/3 as powerful as the current DreamCast, the PSX2 is going to be damn fine as a console system. Even if it doesn't get bragging rights for performance, it can rely on its bevy of wonderful games and talented designers to more than make up for any lack in horsepower. The PSX right now does fine despite being behind the N64 and DreamCast in performance. The PSX2 just denies the DreamCast the ability to dominate based on sheer computational ability.
Me, I'll be looking forward to whatever machine/console Square plans to support in the future, as well as Namco for their gun games, Capcom for their MegaMan games, etc. It is after all the point of a console, games, right?
Yeah, but will the consumer level graphics card be able to play my library of PSX games?
This might be possible if Connectix releases the VGS for the PC, but then the price of keeping competative with the PSX2 is sorta prohibative unless you already own said kick-butt system, 600MHz P3 with 133MHz bus and SLIed TNT2s with a DVD decoder and drive. I really doubt the price/performance points will be even close, with the console having a much better one, even if it can't do as many things as a PC.
TV rez is closer to 512x480, and the PSX2 is rumored to support VESA and HDTV resolutions, which is 1024x768.
Would you really compare the price of a top of the line comparable PC to a PSX2?
Admittedly it is all speculation, but something even close to top of the line would need a P3 with is SSE or a Dec Alpha with its powerful FPU, and a couple of TNTs or V3s SLIed together, with a DVD drive and decoder board, and 3d sound card. 400$ vs something close to 1600$
Go and grab one of those high end Quantum Obsidian Voodoo2 boards; four VooDoo2s on one board, or something like that.
The big deal would be that the console is still much cheaper than buying a PC with comparable floating point, DVD decoding, kick-ass graphics subsystem, and 21" monitor.
Who cares about upgrading it? It's like arguing one shouldn't buy toasters if there are ovens because there is so much less functionality for a toaster than an oven, or that TVs are pointless, just buy a PC with a 21" monitor and TV tuner, since the PC is so much more useful and upgradeable than the TV!
For whatever reason, the PSX2 is supposed to be more powerful than a comparably priced PC. You would need a Dec Alpha and a couple V3s SLIed together and a DVD decoder board to approach the same level of performance, and don't tell me you can get that for 400$, which is near the top of the price range I've heard quoted for this system.
If you want your puter to run Linux, does it occur to you that there aren't as many games as there exists for the PSX/PSX2? Because if your preference is due to lack of interest in PSX/PSX2 games, then it really doesn't matter what the specs of the PSX2 is, or the upgradeability of the PC has, because you just don't want to play anything for the PSX2.
Some issues: What's the big deal of comparing and drooling from DreamCast vs PSX2 vs PC? I would imagine the particular games being released would be of more importance than the particulars of the machine, though a well thought out and spec-ed out machine is definitely nice. Myself, I look forward to DVD movie playback on the PSX2, if Sony doesn't decide to limit it as well as being able to play my whole library of PSX games on it. I'm sure there will be impressive PSX2 games out for it, but since nothing has been announced, there's really nothing to talk about right now.
Another thing: Why do some people seem to think this, or at least consoles, are a waste of money? It's like arguing TVs or DVD players or toasters are a waste of money; I'll complete each analogy... Why get a TV when you can get a PC with a TV tuner and a 21" monitor? The PC can do so much more than the a TV! Why get a DVD player when you can get a PC with a DVD-ROM drive and decoder board? You don't even need a TV to watch it, but if you want to you can always get a video card with TV-out and hook up your PC to your TV/home entertainment center! Why get a toaster when you have your oven? Just pop the bread in there for a few moments and you get your toast! And the oven can do so much more than a toaster anyways!
All of the above prompted by statements that the PSX2 and consoles in general are a waste of money and effort, when the PC has more potential, can do more, is more cost effective, is upgradeable, will do more things, etc...
Consoles are supposed to be specialized computing devices; plug and play, no upgrades, no fiddling. Neat thing about the PSX2 is the potential for modem, keyboard, mouse, and peripheral support, what with the USB, PCMCIA, and Firewire ports. So yeah, it's conceivable that a PC is more useful, but we're talking games and movies and maybe eventually simple word processing, web browsing, email, and chat on this console. Not to mention boatloads cheaper, per processing power. You'd need a Dec Alpha CPU at 500 MHz with a couple V3s SLIed to get comparable computing/graphics horsepower, so the price comparison falls apart.
Of course this is all moot if there aren't any games you want to play on either PSX or PSX2. That being the case, then it wouldn't matter one hoot that the PSX2 isn't upgradeable or useful as a PC, if you don't want to play the games on it.
Complaining about underhanded and immoral business practice is one thing, but railing against M$ just because they're dominant seems stupid and particularly irrational.
I personally don't particularly like M$, but neither do I revile or hate them. It's never bothered me much that any company remain closed and proprietary, when it made sense to be. For example, patents for Transmeta won't be given away, despite the staunch interest in open source, intellectual freedom, etc.
On the other hand, I firmly believe that the Win32 API should be opened up and not kept under M$ control, necesarily. Essentially, M$ is such a large portion of the market, it would be a public good/service for the API to be open. This is ill thought out, and mainly personal opinion, of course..
What is it with people who spout off numbers and benchmarks and stuff?
Its a secondary blessing that it beats DreamCast, and not a disappointment if it doesn't.
It boils down to games and support for the console; if its there, I'll play, if it isn't, I won't. If the PSX2 were only twice as powerful as the PSX, we would be well served, considering how long and useful the PSX has been with such old and dated technology.
Having DVD and 3d sound is really nice, essentially you get a DVD standalone for free when you buy the game machine.
Or you get a game machine for free when you buy the DVD player.
Suspension of disbelief does not require FFMovie quality graphics; I was able to play and enjoy FFVI when it was only measly sprites on a SNES. I will continue to enjoy well crafted games over beautiful games if I have to choose between the two.
Sure I'll appreciate all the benefits of the advanced hardware in the PSX2, but I'll mainly be getting it because(I hope) FFIX will be released for it, and FFMovie:RPG will be released for it...
So the big deal everyone makes about the PSX and PSX2 is...
I suppose consoles are fine, as long as you don't mind forcing yourself into obsolence. Well, the PSX has actually been out for a long time now, buying it when it was brand spanking new would have let you play games for a good solid 3 or 4 years... As opposed to the PC's upgrade cycle of new hardware requirements every 13 or so months... So less investment and greater returns, at least with the well thought investment in a PSX...
Another issues is that the PSX2 is backwards compatible with the PSX, so upon release it will have the largest game library available of all game systems, except perhaps for the GameBoy series. I'm really sorry that you lost so on the Jaguar, but such criticism can't really be placed on Sony's PSX. Not only does it extend the life of all your old games, but it makes it painless to contemplate buying because of the plethora of released games for the new system.
The real argument I think is whether there are any games you want to play on said system. Don't buy because of specs, because of hype, because of marketing(If you do, then you end up buying things like Jaguar, without any game support), but because there are games you want to play. Because of Xenogears, or Gran Turismo, or Castlevania:Symphony of the Night, or MegaMan X4, or Bust-a-Groove.
Hey, FFVIII, FFVII and Parasite Eve are fun! If the PSX2 didn't have backwards compatability, I doubt I would buy one, unless FFIX comes out for it.
I never said anything about looks being why I played or liked the games. They are really nice bonuses, but its the games first. So it seems we don't agree on the same games. You value innovation, whatever that is. Can you quantify it? Or is it just 'whatever isn't popular right now'? If the FF series of games were all text based, I would still enjoy them.
Otherwise why would I bother to buy books and read?
Probable vaporware? =) Sony would be losing a lot of money if they didn't follow up their commanding presence of the PSX with a PSX2, so its more probable than vapor, I think... It's like calling the Merced probabale vaporware, or Win2k probably vaporware...
I'm not interested in original ideas; I just want the system so I can play my FFVIII, my FFVII, my anime DVD collection, my Metal Gear Solid, my Parasite Eve, and maybe even Square's new racing game...
What's there to be impressed about? I'm already impressed with FFVIII on a current generation PSX; It will be nice to see what magic Square and Sony can cook up with the new power of the PSX2k, what with DVD as well(Whee! Single disc games again, well, at least for a month or two...)
Sony just wants to keep their options open for future use. Perhaps removeable media, or linking 2 PSX2k together, or something else remarkably brilliant.
It is already more than a games console; its a full entertainment center, what with PSX support, PSX2k support, DVD playback, CD playback, and quite possibly 3d sound and AC3 digital dolby surround sound...
I would actually argue those distortions already occur in the plateglass because of road noise when you travel on a freeway, and if you aren't bothered by that, I don't know that you would be bothered by this.
Yes, there may be real effects we can't figure out right now, but I don't know that these distortions are any worse than what is already acceptable today.
Of course the car doesn't have some weird fixed refresh rate to deal with either...
Yeah... Console wars have as much place on/. as desktop environment wars, or OS wars, or distribution wars, or future CPU standard wars...
Um, well... Take it either way, I guess, but I think they all belong or go as a group. As long as it's discussion and fairly civil, and not just flamebait or trash talking...
Well, hopefully that will be part of the PS2k standard, won't it?
Then no one would ever need to buy a PC to play games; PC for work, console for games!
Whatever =) Still, specialization and distribution of responsibility works in general, rather than having one device try to do everything(See Win98 as the OS that does everything, and nothing well...)
Yeah, but we're also talking about greater than V3-4000 level performance, where a V3-3500 itself costs 249$... So take your Cyrix for 400$, slap in 2 V3-3500 just to be generous, and the price goes to 900$ for a barely comparable system...
I may have been stretching some to make the analogy; But Id's network and rendering engines, while closed and proprietary, are akin to Intel's PC hardware, the AGP, the Rambus spec, Slot-1, and Socket370...
It's not free, nor can you modify/change/rerelease it.
On top of this platform exists Linux and the open source movement.
Id provides a similar platform, via Quake/Quake2 technologies, and atop this platform many games have/are released, some commercially after licensing, some freely available.
The argument I sorta twisted and stretched to make was one of platform vs content.
Is the Intel PC platform OpenSource? What does it mean to apply OpenSource to the hardware? Yet Linux run's atop it, and it is OpenSource.
Then take iD's rendering and network engine as a platform that is closed source; the game itself is all open and non-proprietary, and if you so wish, by analogy, could be considered OpenSource.
In the literal sense of free and distributable source, the network and rendering engines are entirely closed and proprietary.
I'm actually curious what prevents a modern day P2-450 from doing full-screen DVD playback acceptably? Usually constrained to a 320-200 window or something...
Slashdot Mirror
I really doubt that.
I was mentioning parts that won't be out till later this year too, so in the interests of profit, will still be expensive.
P3 with SSE at 600MHz on a 133MHz bus won't be out till Q3, right before the PSX2 comes out in Japan. Don't be surprised if Intel sells the CPUs for a good premium, like 500$. And the comparable V4 or TNT3 will still be a good 200$, alongside the cost of the rest of the PC.
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I'm curious why you would need to believe these performance numbers to be interested in the system?
If it is even twice as powerful as the original PSX, or 2/3 as powerful as the current DreamCast, the PSX2 is going to be damn fine as a console system. Even if it doesn't get bragging rights for performance, it can rely on its bevy of wonderful games and talented designers to more than make up for any lack in horsepower. The PSX right now does fine despite being behind the N64 and DreamCast in performance. The PSX2 just denies the DreamCast the ability to dominate based on sheer computational ability.
Me, I'll be looking forward to whatever machine/console Square plans to support in the future, as well as Namco for their gun games, Capcom for their MegaMan games, etc. It is after all the point of a console, games, right?
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Yeah, but will the consumer level graphics card be able to play my library of PSX games?
This might be possible if Connectix releases the VGS for the PC, but then the price of keeping competative with the PSX2 is sorta prohibative unless you already own said kick-butt system, 600MHz P3 with 133MHz bus and SLIed TNT2s with a DVD decoder and drive. I really doubt the price/performance points will be even close, with the console having a much better one, even if it can't do as many things as a PC.
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TV rez is closer to 512x480, and the PSX2 is rumored to support VESA and HDTV resolutions, which is 1024x768.
Would you really compare the price of a top of the line comparable PC to a PSX2?
Admittedly it is all speculation, but something even close to top of the line would need a P3 with is SSE or a Dec Alpha with its powerful FPU, and a couple of TNTs or V3s SLIed together, with a DVD drive and decoder board, and 3d sound card.
400$ vs something close to 1600$
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You already can.
Go and grab one of those high end Quantum Obsidian Voodoo2 boards; four VooDoo2s on one board, or something like that.
The big deal would be that the console is still much cheaper than buying a PC with comparable floating point, DVD decoding, kick-ass graphics subsystem, and 21" monitor.
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Who cares about upgrading it?
It's like arguing one shouldn't buy toasters if there are ovens because there is so much less functionality for a toaster than an oven, or that TVs are pointless, just buy a PC with a 21" monitor and TV tuner, since the PC is so much more useful and upgradeable than the TV!
For whatever reason, the PSX2 is supposed to be more powerful than a comparably priced PC. You would need a Dec Alpha and a couple V3s SLIed together and a DVD decoder board to approach the same level of performance, and don't tell me you can get that for 400$, which is near the top of the price range I've heard quoted for this system.
If you want your puter to run Linux, does it occur to you that there aren't as many games as there exists for the PSX/PSX2? Because if your preference is due to lack of interest in PSX/PSX2 games, then it really doesn't matter what the specs of the PSX2 is, or the upgradeability of the PC has, because you just don't want to play anything for the PSX2.
Sigh. Rant off.
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So this is a pre-emptive pro-active rant.
Some issues:
What's the big deal of comparing and drooling from DreamCast vs PSX2 vs PC? I would imagine the particular games being released would be of more importance than the particulars of the machine, though a well thought out and spec-ed out machine is definitely nice. Myself, I look forward to DVD movie playback on the PSX2, if Sony doesn't decide to limit it as well as being able to play my whole library of PSX games on it. I'm sure there will be impressive PSX2 games out for it, but since nothing has been announced, there's really nothing to talk about right now.
Another thing: Why do some people seem to think this, or at least consoles, are a waste of money? It's like arguing TVs or DVD players or toasters are a waste of money; I'll complete each analogy...
Why get a TV when you can get a PC with a TV tuner and a 21" monitor? The PC can do so much more than the a TV!
Why get a DVD player when you can get a PC with a DVD-ROM drive and decoder board? You don't even need a TV to watch it, but if you want to you can always get a video card with TV-out and hook up your PC to your TV/home entertainment center!
Why get a toaster when you have your oven? Just pop the bread in there for a few moments and you get your toast! And the oven can do so much more than a toaster anyways!
All of the above prompted by statements that the PSX2 and consoles in general are a waste of money and effort, when the PC has more potential, can do more, is more cost effective, is upgradeable, will do more things, etc...
Consoles are supposed to be specialized computing devices; plug and play, no upgrades, no fiddling. Neat thing about the PSX2 is the potential for modem, keyboard, mouse, and peripheral support, what with the USB, PCMCIA, and Firewire ports. So yeah, it's conceivable that a PC is more useful, but we're talking games and movies and maybe eventually simple word processing, web browsing, email, and chat on this console. Not to mention boatloads cheaper, per processing power. You'd need a Dec Alpha CPU at 500 MHz with a couple V3s SLIed to get comparable computing/graphics horsepower, so the price comparison falls apart.
Of course this is all moot if there aren't any games you want to play on either PSX or PSX2. That being the case, then it wouldn't matter one hoot that the PSX2 isn't upgradeable or useful as a PC, if you don't want to play the games on it.
Okay, I got that out of my system...
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I never understood all the fuss over M$ anyway.
Complaining about underhanded and immoral business practice is one thing, but railing against M$ just because they're dominant seems stupid and particularly irrational.
I personally don't particularly like M$, but neither do I revile or hate them. It's never bothered me much that any company remain closed and proprietary, when it made sense to be. For example, patents for Transmeta won't be given away, despite the staunch interest in open source, intellectual freedom, etc.
On the other hand, I firmly believe that the Win32 API should be opened up and not kept under M$ control, necesarily. Essentially, M$ is such a large portion of the market, it would be a public good/service for the API to be open. This is ill thought out, and mainly personal opinion, of course..
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What is it with people who spout off numbers and benchmarks and stuff?
Its a secondary blessing that it beats DreamCast, and not a disappointment if it doesn't.
It boils down to games and support for the console; if its there, I'll play, if it isn't, I won't. If the PSX2 were only twice as powerful as the PSX, we would be well served, considering how long and useful the PSX has been with such old and dated technology.
Having DVD and 3d sound is really nice, essentially you get a DVD standalone for free when you buy the game machine.
Or you get a game machine for free when you buy the DVD player.
Suspension of disbelief does not require FFMovie quality graphics; I was able to play and enjoy FFVI when it was only measly sprites on a SNES. I will continue to enjoy well crafted games over beautiful games if I have to choose between the two.
Sure I'll appreciate all the benefits of the advanced hardware in the PSX2, but I'll mainly be getting it because(I hope) FFIX will be released for it, and FFMovie:RPG will be released for it...
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So the big deal everyone makes about the PSX and PSX2 is...
I suppose consoles are fine, as long as you don't mind forcing yourself into obsolence.
Well, the PSX has actually been out for a long time now, buying it when it was brand spanking new would have let you play games for a good solid 3 or 4 years... As opposed to the PC's upgrade cycle of new hardware requirements every 13 or so months... So less investment and greater returns, at least with the well thought investment in a PSX...
Another issues is that the PSX2 is backwards compatible with the PSX, so upon release it will have the largest game library available of all game systems, except perhaps for the GameBoy series. I'm really sorry that you lost so on the Jaguar, but such criticism can't really be placed on Sony's PSX. Not only does it extend the life of all your old games, but it makes it painless to contemplate buying because of the plethora of released games for the new system.
The real argument I think is whether there are any games you want to play on said system. Don't buy because of specs, because of hype, because of marketing(If you do, then you end up buying things like Jaguar, without any game support), but because there are games you want to play. Because of Xenogears, or Gran Turismo, or Castlevania:Symphony of the Night, or MegaMan X4, or Bust-a-Groove.
It would be silly otherwise, no?
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I value fun over innovation...
Hey, FFVIII, FFVII and Parasite Eve are fun! If the PSX2 didn't have backwards compatability, I doubt I would buy one, unless FFIX comes out for it.
I never said anything about looks being why I played or liked the games. They are really nice bonuses, but its the games first. So it seems we don't agree on the same games. You value innovation, whatever that is. Can you quantify it? Or is it just 'whatever isn't popular right now'? If the FF series of games were all text based, I would still enjoy them.
Otherwise why would I bother to buy books and read?
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Okay =)
I've heard it called PlayStation2000 in earlier posts...
Playstation=PSX
2000=2k...
If Sony has officially called it Playstation2, then yeah, PSX2...
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Why should he back it up? Go read some of the articles on the web...
http://www.rpgamer.com/news/030299a.html
It even explictly mentions backwards compatibility for the PS collection of games for the PS2k, as well as DVD support, and Linux development OS...
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Probable vaporware? =)
Sony would be losing a lot of money if they didn't follow up their commanding presence of the PSX with a PSX2, so its more probable than vapor, I think... It's like calling the Merced probabale vaporware, or Win2k probably vaporware...
I'm not interested in original ideas; I just want the system so I can play my FFVIII, my FFVII, my anime DVD collection, my Metal Gear Solid, my Parasite Eve, and maybe even Square's new racing game...
What's there to be impressed about? I'm already impressed with FFVIII on a current generation PSX; It will be nice to see what magic Square and Sony can cook up with the new power of the PSX2k, what with DVD as well(Whee! Single disc games again, well, at least for a month or two...)
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So far Linux has been mentioned as a development platform, and not any sort of OS for the PS2k
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Who said anything about set-top box?
Sony just wants to keep their options open for future use. Perhaps removeable media, or linking 2 PSX2k together, or something else remarkably brilliant.
It is already more than a games console; its a full entertainment center, what with PSX support, PSX2k support, DVD playback, CD playback, and quite possibly 3d sound and AC3 digital dolby surround sound...
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I would actually argue those distortions already occur in the plateglass because of road noise when you travel on a freeway, and if you aren't bothered by that, I don't know that you would be bothered by this.
Yes, there may be real effects we can't figure out right now, but I don't know that these distortions are any worse than what is already acceptable today.
Of course the car doesn't have some weird fixed refresh rate to deal with either...
The eyestrain study is a good idea.
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Ah, embedded information....
But of course we already know some people are very classified/restricted access, so it wouldn't hurt for this to be done.
On the other hand, I can see Get Smart!'s 'cone of silence' being done with this...
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Yeah... /. as desktop environment wars, or OS wars, or distribution wars, or future CPU standard wars...
Console wars have as much place on
Um, well...
Take it either way, I guess, but I think they all belong or go as a group. As long as it's discussion and fairly civil, and not just flamebait or trash talking...
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Well, hopefully that will be part of the PS2k standard, won't it?
Then no one would ever need to buy a PC to play games; PC for work, console for games!
Whatever =) Still, specialization and distribution of responsibility works in general, rather than having one device try to do everything(See Win98 as the OS that does everything, and nothing well...)
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Yeah, but we're also talking about greater than V3-4000 level performance, where a V3-3500 itself costs 249$...
So take your Cyrix for 400$, slap in 2 V3-3500 just to be generous, and the price goes to 900$ for a barely comparable system...
It will still be a bargain.
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I may have been stretching some to make the analogy;
But Id's network and rendering engines, while closed and proprietary, are akin to Intel's PC hardware, the AGP, the Rambus spec, Slot-1, and Socket370...
It's not free, nor can you modify/change/rerelease it.
On top of this platform exists Linux and the open source movement.
Id provides a similar platform, via Quake/Quake2 technologies, and atop this platform many games have/are released, some commercially after licensing, some freely available.
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The argument I sorta twisted and stretched to make was one of platform vs content.
Is the Intel PC platform OpenSource? What does it mean to apply OpenSource to the hardware? Yet Linux run's atop it, and it is OpenSource.
Then take iD's rendering and network engine as a platform that is closed source; the game itself is all open and non-proprietary, and if you so wish, by analogy, could be considered OpenSource.
In the literal sense of free and distributable source, the network and rendering engines are entirely closed and proprietary.
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You're right about the DCT using integer...
I'm actually curious what prevents a modern day P2-450 from doing full-screen DVD playback acceptably? Usually constrained to a 320-200 window or something...
Is it just Win-Bloat interfering?
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Actually, I suspect it was sarcastic because it wasn't an AC... but still... Not very good sarcasm either..
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