First DreamCast has to derail the jaugernaut that is the current PlayStation before it even has to deal with the PS2k...
Who cares about performance and numbers if the games don't live to the hype? First of all, Sega needs to deal with the fact that it has to deal with 2 market leaders, N64 and PSX. Can you imagine, 2 million pre-orders for FFVIII in Japan for a measly PSX? Or a half million pre-orders for Zelda64 on the 64 bit N64? First target would be to woo Square and simliar companies to DreamCast...
You wouldn't(I wouldn't, at least) want the PSX to do 'more', like your computer.
A game console is not supposed to be a computer, any more than a TV is supposed to toast your bread, or your VCR to polish your shoes. My microwave can do things your well-equipped PC can't, so there =P
But if you're not into games, then of course the PS2k won't be interesting to you, just like a new reflective/convective microwave wouldn't be of interest to me or you either. For developers it is much easier to target a PSX, with its fixed specs, APIs, and hardware, than a PC, what with Win98, WinNT, Linux and BeOS, and PowerPC with MacOS, Linux, and BeOS, as well as staggering amounts of APIS, hardware, and drivers to deal with...
In reverse, it's the same in trying to get a game to run acceptably on a PC as opposed to a standard console...
If Intel is developing compresion technologies ala MPEG video, which takes hours to compress into incredibly tiny efficient packages, and significant(but easily done via SSE/KNI) processor time to decompress, then they really do have a solution to add richer more vibrant internet experiences...
However, I can only think of one place where this may be applicable...
I'm sure the PS2k will effectively be nice clean black box; put in DVD, press power, and play.
Any 'OS' features would probably be a combination of ROM and CD, ie auto-booting you see on today's PCs.
It's pretty easy to actually outperform a PC, since there is nowhere near as much overhead in a PS than in the traditional PC. Sony's strength is the plug and play(Sorry for that =) nature of the PSX, and most likely, the PS2k.
Their machine may cost twice as much, but it will also probably have DVD playback, 3d sound via Dolby AC3 5.1, as well as support for 3d glasses(why not? Technology has almost made it feasable!), multiple inputs, and maybe even modem/internet accessability!
It may be a good idea to create a PS2k and a PS2k+ with extra features not needed to play the traditional PS2k games.... Just an idea to separate into a chrome and black 400$ game machine, and a flat white 200$ game machine..
The intent is very similar, I believe. People have added, using dlls, clustering (a single game over multiple distributed servers), voice over network, and 3d sound as well as their own maps, levels, graphics, sounds, models, weapons, and gameplay, and re-release for free. You have to pay a licensing fee if you want to sell the game, since they put so much effort into providing the engine and such, but you also gets 100% access to the tools and source as well as help from id software... Sorta like contracting/hiring people to do your coding.
But if you define a game by its artwork, graphics, levels, gameplay, sound, and such, all that is 'free', in the sense of GPL open source, I think. It's just infintely easier to buy/use Id's base work for 50$ for a CD of 500mb of source work, rather than do it all yourself... But you are perfectly free to do so if you so want!
In case someone hasn't seen my posts elsewhere in this thread...
Id seems to be doing a dandy job with it's games... And while it isn't open in the same way Linux is open, it is free...
You can actually download the binaries and dlls and such straight from id, I think. Of course, you don't have the graphics, the models, the sounds, the levels, the weapons, or the gameplay... But you are perfectly free to use all the code, the tools, and the info to craft your own game from scratch. If you want to sell all of your effort, you just license from Id their engine, slap it on a CD, and burn, burn, burn.
It's also no secret that Id freely allows modification and customization of their stuff to anyone's hearts content. The original Quake engine had chess(Quess), racing(Quake Rally), a Descent-like game(AirQuake), soccer(Powerball), and many many more. All free, downloadable, and modifiable. Heck, there are even patches for distributed clustered Quake, voice over network, 3d sound, bots, capture the flag, and many other things... I'm not sure that they ever released their source, but surely is not because id doesn't release information!
Even before their games become obsolete, they release the code specs, and information, to allow modification of their games.
For free.
You can change and modify and release without paying a dime, as long as you don't charge for it. If you do, you pay the license, but that's it. You can create brand spanking new games from scratch, even without owning a legal copy, by downloading the binaries and patches iD releases, and then creating all your own levels, maps, graphics, sounds, models, etc...
Then of course they happen to like to release their source as learning tools and gestures of good will a few years after they stop licensing the product.
So iD releases information and specs for tools for all their games since Doom2; Quake and Quake2, and soon Quake3.
They allow people to play and tinker with the games without charge; modify, remake, remodel, anything. They only things they keep to themselves, thus far, are the network engines and the graphics engines.
You can change the models, the graphics, the sounds, the levels, the gameplay, the mechanics, without paying for a bit, and as long as you release back into the community. If you want to sell your modifications you have to license from iD, but otherwise, it's essentially a free game engine and support structure.
What do you pay for when you buy the game? The graphics, the models, the maps. These things you don't need, but if you want to play, you need to get them somehow, and grabbing 600mb of data is mighty inconvenient for most people, and very reasonable for only 50 dollars. But you really don't need them to do anything with the game; you can create your own sounds, models, graphics, levels, weapons, monsters, and gameplay from all the available tools...
So id spends considerable amount of effort(4 people coding, 5 people on levels, graphics, sounds, and models) developing an engine and game, and except for the source for the engine, gives away everything. Yet for most it is defintely more convenient to buy to get all this base artwork and effort, and then modify off that and create your own. You pay for the effort and time they spent to do all this for you; if you don't want to, you don't have to, but you can't make money either without licensing their engine... So here is an essentially open source project making millions!
Of course Open Source purists would argue and find something wrong(feel free to comment!) and people who don't believe iD operates under any sort of Open-ness and makes it's money some other way will find things wrong(again, feel free to comment!)
It really doesn't compare to Quake/Quake2/Quake3...
Quake is 2 or 3 years old now, Quake 2 about a year, and Quake3 just about a couple months from now... 3 functional games, engines, and tools before any real game is out or available from Crystal Space. Not to harsh the product or the project, but in a real sense allowing iD to specialize in producing great graphics and network engines while others produce the games, art, and gameplay is a very nice and convenient setup.
And it is free enough that you don't need to own the game to do any of this; The binaries and dlls are availble freely, and the tools and info to create the graphics, levels, maps, monsters, weapons, and gameplay to create things like Sin, Half Life, Heretic2, Kingpin, Daikatana, and Anachronix, among others.
I really doubt that Crystal Space will fill any niche other than people wanting to learn/extend their graphics skills, as people interested in making games are more likely to use iD's engines, and license them if they want to produce commercial quality games...
Hmm.. If you're just talking about code... John Cash for networking John Carmack for rendering and just about everything else Brian Hook for graphics Dave Kirsch for ports... Surprisingly enough, just a handful of people can outproduce the entire Internet in terms of game engine quality, speed, and functionality... So much for Open Source and distributed programming... =)
Please, no insult intended, but Quake is now 2, 3 years now, Quake 2 is at least a year, and Quake 3 is literally a month or two away, and Crystal Space still isn't functional in any way close to being a game...
Of course there are level designers and artists as well, but they contribute to the game and not the engine, if you choose to separate the two.
I actually think Quake and iD software very much fits into the Open Source/Free Software model; the only things they don't release are the source for the rendering engine and the network engine. They release the coding languages like QuakeC, the game specs so you can modify to your heart's content, tools to create your own levels, and the information needed to create your own models, graphics, weapons, and tools to create your own games... What else is needed, really, for it to be Free or Open? Is there any benefit for us in releasing the network code or the graphics code?
Isn't Quake/Quake2 in real way already Open Source?
Anyone can download the binaries, the tools, the editors, the resources to make their own game from scratch, without owning/buying/paying for any of the commercial products. However, you can't use the commercial sounds, the commercial models, the commercial maps, or the commercial graphics. If you decide to use any of the above commercial products, then you just can't sell or redistribute for payment for your product without a license; but free distribution is fine! Well, as long as you don't violate someone else's intellectual property(Aliens, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc).
What part of Quake/Quake2 isn't open? The fact that you can't hack around in the rendering engine or the network code? You can get free binaries of both, but not the source if a bug exists... Nor can you modify either. But you can modify the gameplay and game mechanics using dlls, libraries, and QuakeC, as well as the graphics, the maps, the weapons, the characters, the monsters, the sounds....
And it still makes iD software and many other upcoming design teams( Valve's Half Life, Ritual's Sin, Raven's Heretic, and soon to come Xatrix's Kingpin and Ion Storm's Daikatanna and Anachronix).
Ah, but the difference is that by modifying the Quake source and game engine all these benefits could retroactively be applied to every single Quake mod, conversion, TC, derivative, and even the original... As well as new games and such, since all the editors, tools, and support structure for Quake already exist, whereas for Crystal Space a lot of it is still in development. That is one of the biggest reasons people work on the DooM code, because of the widespread support and infrastructure already in place; imagine how much more exists for Quake, which some still think offers the best internet play despite Quake2...
I agree. I don't see any way for the engine to be open source, if we compare the gaming engine to new technology coverable under patents and property laws. The source art, sounds, models, etc, things that actually make the game, have long been 'open' from iD/Id, ever since the popularity of hacking into DooM/DooMII, so in one real sense the game itself is open source; anyone can make any game they want, with the QuakeC or DLLs, and with their own or Id/iDs art, sounds, and models... Only stipulation I believe is to pay for a license if a commercial product is to be released.
For all intents and purposes, I think iD/Id games do satisfy open source and public licenses in a loose way, just that the really important/special/money making parts are closed and covered up... The rendering engine, the network engine, and the data format/world representations...
Actually, yeah =) After the release of the Doom source, a whole bunch of improved versions came out; Boom, PRBoom, ZDoom, GLDoom, WinDoom, etc. In fact, most of them have added significant improvements(Key bindings, jump, z-look, more special effects, less limitations, better graphics/sound/resolution, hardware acceleration), and are currently in the process of rolling them up into one. Just because its old does not make Doom outdated. In very many ways Doom was more fun and satisfying than Quake ever was, and good games does not rely on state of the art engines. Look at Jedi Knight and many of their 2d adventure games... They are all hits without relying on technology beyond Commander Keen or DooM. Someone will see the Quake code, see how good it is, and add to it 3d sound support, or voice over network, maybe some real dynamic lighting/shading code, more real world physics, portals, etc.
It is far from useless. I really do think someone will take it and run with it...
iD releasing the source for Quake is a far cry from the conventional attributions of Open Source. It is not open, but released as a useful tool for people to learn from and advance with. Essentially iD is giving away 'obsolete' technology, since no one will want to license it anymore with the coming advent of Quake3:Arena.
Not that this isn't a good thing, it just isn't the same as Open Source with Capital Letters. It will still be useful and helpful for cadres of programmers wanting to learn something about graphics and real time rendering, and maybe even network stuff if they release the QuakeWorld stuff. Anyhow, it's still not official, so we'll have to wait!
Sorry for the double posts =) I was also running WinNT on a Pentium OverDrive/120 and a Pentium 120 at some time, before going for the PPro 200...
I went for the PPro only because I added photography, zip, scanning, and PhotoShop. Otherwise I probably would have just stuck to a Pentium 200, for the 300$ price difference...
My next system will be a dual system, just for fun =)
Well, it seems that Apple's sales tactic is to sell the OS bundled with the PC; yes, if they so wished to could sell with LinuxPPC installed, but it's not their OS and it's not their support problem.
On the other hand, it's like demanding VAR research install Win9X on their systems when you buy from them, no?
Just realized it was a humor post... Like most things funny, it also embedded more than a kernal of truth =)
Hey, if it didn't mean anything, it wouldn't be funny! I finally got through after 15 minutes(It could have been shorter, but I was busy and not paying attention)
Slashdot should have some sort of self-ranking/flame counter... Perhaps counting posts with sux/rox/rulez/moron/idiot/troll in their text? While rough and approximate, it would be funny to try and figure out some sort of S/N ratio... AS AS
Well, anyhow, before I read the article, I wanted to make a statistical observation:
The more an article is read/seen, the more likely it will also be flamed, so keeping that in mind, the ratio of flames/rank would be highest for those articles that only got 1 post, with it being a flame, over another article with hundreds of posts and several flames...
Another point is that in order to draw posts and comments, people get excited and sensationalistic in disproportion to the actual content or reality of the article. Still... I have to read the article to be sure, eh?
What the heck was that all about? Of course, if you are trolling, the fact that you got a few good replies obviously worked...
Though it's flattering to see most of the discussion generated by your post(I did the original "Trolls, lamers, and flamers, please ignore!" post), the point is to be sorta useful...
AMD5x86 was intentionally supposed to be cheap; Intel always has a high price premium(Except for their Celerons...).
While I don't use Juno, who are you to judge or criticize? My dad doesn't know Unix or PCs very well, so he's stuck with Win9x even though its unstable and crashes... For the longest time I had him using my NT machine until I came back to school. And excuse me, but I've been running NT on a PPro200/P2-266 for the past 4 years, and on a P120 for the past 4 months, with perfectly acceptable performance. Sure, something better than a P120 is nice, but a P120 is cheap man.
A P166 is so much faster than my P120... I sorta wish I knew how to find you to give you a real scolding...
Great, not only will corporations and such have to worry about Y2k issues and bugs, they have to also deal with W2k issues and bugs; I wonder if this is just an opportunity for small startups and no names to write/port to W2k first, before bigger houses, and have access to the newer features?
Change of OS provides many new opportunites, as well as inconveniences. Of course, the new opportunites aren't really for the end users, even if that is how it is advertised... But since when have big companies cared about us end users? =)
Of course that will probably attract all three of the above!
Oh well. Still, here's the warning; there is no need for M$4ever posts, or rulez/sux!, or general flames, bashing, or trash. Serious question...
Has any one used and been satsified by M$? Are they really just 'good enough'? Or are they not? While I generally don't approve of their tactics or their OS, they are 'good enough' for me; I use WinNT on a 200MHz PPro with 96mb of memory. I surf, email, telnet, word process, excel, photoshop, and DES/RC5, as well as use Winamp and the odd game of Civ2.
I do plan to build myself a Linux box in the future, for educational purposes and such... But for each niche their respective strengths and weaknesses. M$ just happens to be convenient, easy to learn/use, and powerful enough with a decent system. Perhaps it isn't suited for desktop publishing, or as a server of files/html/mail/etc, or as a serious multi-media processing station. But for playing around with pictures, and doing the odd html/email/ftp, or the usage of decent 3d graphics, or the programming of the small program, or the playing of games, it seems okay. That may be the biggest thing Linux has to conquer; Heck, as far as consumer growth, Apple and MacOSX has a better potential, if only because it has all the important user features as well as the future OS support...
I may be bored of it sometimes, and not read the news/posts/rumors on it, but this trial is actually pretty important, even if it got started by something as inconsequential as a web browser. But then again, Al Capone got busted for tax evasion, right?
Gee, all we ever seem to get are posts from trolls(MS4ever) and idiots(Linux Rulez! M$ sux!). Hmm, a new RPG, T&I? Anyhow, I was wondering if there existed any moderates, or are they all scared off by the T&I, as well as flamers and such. Are there absolutely no sucess stories at all? Maybe this is the wrong place to ask...
Freeware as opposed to buying stuff? Sure, I will gladly take free, but I wonder what the attitude signifies; if something is useful, valuable, and powerful, I will pay good money for it. I assume people are like this regardless of background, origin, or nationality. Am I wrong here?
All the arguments for OSS means you get control over your computer and life. If something is wrong, broken, or missing, you can fix it. There is nothing inherently superior/inferrior about OSS over closed source except for the ability to tinker with it, as it has been proven before that quality, features, and support are not functions of or relating to a closed source commercial model. Heck, OSS doesn't even mean cheap or inexpensive, though it very often has.
Freeware:is it a movement, a philosophy, or just a term? From the user's standpoint I assume it means paying for nothing. From the programmer's standpoint I assume it means no exhange of cash for goods. The question is where does the feedback occur? Why is there more than one generation of free software if source isn't available and feedback doesn't exist? In OSS the original author could get bored, tired, or die, and the software lives because someone else decides they need some functionality, and contribute, and in the nature of OSS, release said contribution.
In the commercial side, people get paid for their programs; if said payment offsets costs and efforts, continued energy is put into making the program better and better(hopefully) in exchange for a permanent and future user base willing and necessary to upgrade for new functionality, features, or performance.
There can even be a mix of the two, as in iD software's DooM and Quake games, with the mixture of commercial product and open tools, mods, hacks, and games, as well as licensed games and such.
Is Freeware just about accepting low quality for low cost, a function of 'getting what you pay for?', because Free software writers still need to eat and survive, right?
Yeah, I understand your caution, but the article really is hype. As I understand it, science has always been hyped to the public as the next best thing since sliced bread =)
There are definite possibilites and strange characteristics, which we may be able to harness even if not in a traditional computing sense. Even the fact that fullerenes can display metallic, semi-metallitc, insulative, and superconductive properties, depending on impurities and construction, gives us a lot of hope that we can do something unique and wonderful with them. Perhaps the electrical contact issue can be resolved by using the tubes themselves as wires, rather than metals... I'm sure many options are being considered, discarded, re-examined, and discovered.
Though I applaud your voicing caution amid hype =)
Couldn't help but notice your email... A physicist, perhaps? Materials science? Chemist? I think cory is the EE/CS network, because my friend is also at Berkeley right now. What real options/opinions and ideas are being done right now for fullerenes?
Slashdot Mirror
First DreamCast has to derail the jaugernaut that is the current PlayStation before it even has to deal with the PS2k...
Who cares about performance and numbers if the games don't live to the hype? First of all, Sega needs to deal with the fact that it has to deal with 2 market leaders, N64 and PSX. Can you imagine, 2 million pre-orders for FFVIII in Japan for a measly PSX? Or a half million pre-orders for Zelda64 on the 64 bit N64? First target would be to woo Square and simliar companies to DreamCast...
Good Luck!
AS
AS
You wouldn't(I wouldn't, at least) want the PSX to do 'more', like your computer.
A game console is not supposed to be a computer, any more than a TV is supposed to toast your bread, or your VCR to polish your shoes. My microwave can do things your well-equipped PC can't, so there =P
But if you're not into games, then of course the PS2k won't be interesting to you, just like a new reflective/convective microwave wouldn't be of interest to me or you either. For developers it is much easier to target a PSX, with its fixed specs, APIs, and hardware, than a PC, what with Win98, WinNT, Linux and BeOS, and PowerPC with MacOS, Linux, and BeOS, as well as staggering amounts of APIS, hardware, and drivers to deal with...
In reverse, it's the same in trying to get a game to run acceptably on a PC as opposed to a standard console...
AS
AS
If Intel is developing compresion technologies ala MPEG video, which takes hours to compress into incredibly tiny efficient packages, and significant(but easily done via SSE/KNI) processor time to decompress, then they really do have a solution to add richer more vibrant internet experiences...
However, I can only think of one place where this may be applicable...
Online porn. PIII and XXX campaigns? Eh, maybe!
AS
AS
I'm sure the PS2k will effectively be nice clean black box; put in DVD, press power, and play.
Any 'OS' features would probably be a combination of ROM and CD, ie auto-booting you see on today's PCs.
It's pretty easy to actually outperform a PC, since there is nowhere near as much overhead in a PS than in the traditional PC. Sony's strength is the plug and play(Sorry for that =) nature of the PSX, and most likely, the PS2k.
Their machine may cost twice as much, but it will also probably have DVD playback, 3d sound via Dolby AC3 5.1, as well as support for 3d glasses(why not? Technology has almost made it feasable!), multiple inputs, and maybe even modem/internet accessability!
It may be a good idea to create a PS2k and a PS2k+ with extra features not needed to play the traditional PS2k games.... Just an idea to separate into a chrome and black 400$ game machine, and a flat white 200$ game machine..
AS
AS
That's why I said sorta...
The intent is very similar, I believe.
People have added, using dlls, clustering (a single game over multiple distributed servers), voice over network, and 3d sound as well as their own maps, levels, graphics, sounds, models, weapons, and gameplay, and re-release for free. You have to pay a licensing fee if you want to sell the game, since they put so much effort into providing the engine and such, but you also gets 100% access to the tools and source as well as help from id software... Sorta like contracting/hiring people to do your coding.
But if you define a game by its artwork, graphics, levels, gameplay, sound, and such, all that is 'free', in the sense of GPL open source, I think. It's just infintely easier to buy/use Id's base work for 50$ for a CD of 500mb of source work, rather than do it all yourself... But you are perfectly free to do so if you so want!
AS
AS
In case someone hasn't seen my posts elsewhere in this thread...
Id seems to be doing a dandy job with it's games...
And while it isn't open in the same way Linux is open, it is free...
You can actually download the binaries and dlls and such straight from id, I think.
Of course, you don't have the graphics, the models, the sounds, the levels, the weapons, or the gameplay... But you are perfectly free to use all the code, the tools, and the info to craft your own game from scratch. If you want to sell all of your effort, you just license from Id their engine, slap it on a CD, and burn, burn, burn.
It's also no secret that Id freely allows modification and customization of their stuff to anyone's hearts content. The original Quake engine had chess(Quess), racing(Quake Rally), a Descent-like game(AirQuake), soccer(Powerball), and many many more. All free, downloadable, and modifiable. Heck, there are even patches for distributed clustered Quake, voice over network, 3d sound, bots, capture the flag, and many other things... I'm not sure that they ever released their source, but surely is not because id doesn't release information!
AS
AS
Even before their games become obsolete, they release the code specs, and information, to allow modification of their games.
For free.
You can change and modify and release without paying a dime, as long as you don't charge for it. If you do, you pay the license, but that's it. You can create brand spanking new games from scratch, even without owning a legal copy, by downloading the binaries and patches iD releases, and then creating all your own levels, maps, graphics, sounds, models, etc...
Then of course they happen to like to release their source as learning tools and gestures of good will a few years after they stop licensing the product.
AS
AS
So iD releases information and specs for tools for all their games since Doom2; Quake and Quake2, and soon Quake3.
They allow people to play and tinker with the games without charge; modify, remake, remodel, anything. They only things they keep to themselves, thus far, are the network engines and the graphics engines.
You can change the models, the graphics, the sounds, the levels, the gameplay, the mechanics, without paying for a bit, and as long as you release back into the community. If you want to sell your modifications you have to license from iD, but otherwise, it's essentially a free game engine and support structure.
What do you pay for when you buy the game? The graphics, the models, the maps. These things you don't need, but if you want to play, you need to get them somehow, and grabbing 600mb of data is mighty inconvenient for most people, and very reasonable for only 50 dollars. But you really don't need them to do anything with the game; you can create your own sounds, models, graphics, levels, weapons, monsters, and gameplay from all the available tools...
So id spends considerable amount of effort(4 people coding, 5 people on levels, graphics, sounds, and models) developing an engine and game, and except for the source for the engine, gives away everything. Yet for most it is defintely more convenient to buy to get all this base artwork and effort, and then modify off that and create your own. You pay for the effort and time they spent to do all this for you; if you don't want to, you don't have to, but you can't make money either without licensing their engine... So here is an essentially open source project making millions!
Of course Open Source purists would argue and find something wrong(feel free to comment!) and people who don't believe iD operates under any sort of Open-ness and makes it's money some other way will find things wrong(again, feel free to comment!)
AS
AS
It really doesn't compare to Quake/Quake2/Quake3...
Quake is 2 or 3 years old now, Quake 2 about a year, and Quake3 just about a couple months from now... 3 functional games, engines, and tools before any real game is out or available from Crystal Space. Not to harsh the product or the project, but in a real sense allowing iD to specialize in producing great graphics and network engines while others produce the games, art, and gameplay is a very nice and convenient setup.
And it is free enough that you don't need to own the game to do any of this; The binaries and dlls are availble freely, and the tools and info to create the graphics, levels, maps, monsters, weapons, and gameplay to create things like Sin, Half Life, Heretic2, Kingpin, Daikatana, and Anachronix, among others.
I really doubt that Crystal Space will fill any niche other than people wanting to learn/extend their graphics skills, as people interested in making games are more likely to use iD's engines, and license them if they want to produce commercial quality games...
AS
AS
Hmm.. If you're just talking about code...
John Cash for networking
John Carmack for rendering and just about everything else
Brian Hook for graphics
Dave Kirsch for ports...
Surprisingly enough, just a handful of people can outproduce the entire Internet in terms of game engine quality, speed, and functionality... So much for Open Source and distributed programming... =)
Please, no insult intended, but Quake is now 2, 3 years now, Quake 2 is at least a year, and Quake 3 is literally a month or two away, and Crystal Space still isn't functional in any way close to being a game...
Of course there are level designers and artists as well, but they contribute to the game and not the engine, if you choose to separate the two.
I actually think Quake and iD software very much fits into the Open Source/Free Software model; the only things they don't release are the source for the rendering engine and the network engine. They release the coding languages like QuakeC, the game specs so you can modify to your heart's content, tools to create your own levels, and the information needed to create your own models, graphics, weapons, and tools to create your own games... What else is needed, really, for it to be Free or Open? Is there any benefit for us in releasing the network code or the graphics code?
AS
AS
Isn't Quake/Quake2 in real way already Open Source?
Anyone can download the binaries, the tools, the editors, the resources to make their own game from scratch, without owning/buying/paying for any of the commercial products. However, you can't use the commercial sounds, the commercial models, the commercial maps, or the commercial graphics. If you decide to use any of the above commercial products, then you just can't sell or redistribute for payment for your product without a license; but free distribution is fine! Well, as long as you don't violate someone else's intellectual property(Aliens, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc).
What part of Quake/Quake2 isn't open? The fact that you can't hack around in the rendering engine or the network code? You can get free binaries of both, but not the source if a bug exists... Nor can you modify either. But you can modify the gameplay and game mechanics using dlls, libraries, and QuakeC, as well as the graphics, the maps, the weapons, the characters, the monsters, the sounds....
And it still makes iD software and many other upcoming design teams( Valve's Half Life, Ritual's Sin, Raven's Heretic, and soon to come Xatrix's Kingpin and Ion Storm's Daikatanna and Anachronix).
Any arguments or comments?
AS
AS
Ah, but the difference is that by modifying the Quake source and game engine all these benefits could retroactively be applied to every single Quake mod, conversion, TC, derivative, and even the original... As well as new games and such, since all the editors, tools, and support structure for Quake already exist, whereas for Crystal Space a lot of it is still in development. That is one of the biggest reasons people work on the DooM code, because of the widespread support and infrastructure already in place; imagine how much more exists for Quake, which some still think offers the best internet play despite Quake2...
AS
AS
I agree. I don't see any way for the engine to be open source, if we compare the gaming engine to new technology coverable under patents and property laws. The source art, sounds, models, etc, things that actually make the game, have long been 'open' from iD/Id, ever since the popularity of hacking into DooM/DooMII, so in one real sense the game itself is open source; anyone can make any game they want, with the QuakeC or DLLs, and with their own or Id/iDs art, sounds, and models... Only stipulation I believe is to pay for a license if a commercial product is to be released.
For all intents and purposes, I think iD/Id games do satisfy open source and public licenses in a loose way, just that the really important/special/money making parts are closed and covered up... The rendering engine, the network engine, and the data format/world representations...
AS
AS
Actually, yeah =)
After the release of the Doom source, a whole bunch of improved versions came out; Boom, PRBoom, ZDoom, GLDoom, WinDoom, etc. In fact, most of them have added significant improvements(Key bindings, jump, z-look, more special effects, less limitations, better graphics/sound/resolution, hardware acceleration), and are currently in the process of rolling them up into one. Just because its old does not make Doom outdated. In very many ways Doom was more fun and satisfying than Quake ever was, and good games does not rely on state of the art engines. Look at Jedi Knight and many of their 2d adventure games... They are all hits without relying on technology beyond Commander Keen or DooM. Someone will see the Quake code, see how good it is, and add to it 3d sound support, or voice over network, maybe some real dynamic lighting/shading code, more real world physics, portals, etc.
It is far from useless. I really do think someone will take it and run with it...
AS
AS
iD releasing the source for Quake is a far cry from the conventional attributions of Open Source. It is not open, but released as a useful tool for people to learn from and advance with. Essentially iD is giving away 'obsolete' technology, since no one will want to license it anymore with the coming advent of Quake3:Arena.
Not that this isn't a good thing, it just isn't the same as Open Source with Capital Letters. It will still be useful and helpful for cadres of programmers wanting to learn something about graphics and real time rendering, and maybe even network stuff if they release the QuakeWorld stuff. Anyhow, it's still not official, so we'll have to wait!
AS
AS
Sorry for the double posts =)
I was also running WinNT on a Pentium OverDrive/120 and a Pentium 120 at some time, before going for the PPro 200...
I went for the PPro only because I added photography, zip, scanning, and PhotoShop. Otherwise I probably would have just stuck to a Pentium 200, for the 300$ price difference...
My next system will be a dual system, just for fun =)
Dual Boot NT/Linux of course.
AS
AS
Well, it seems that Apple's sales tactic is to sell the OS bundled with the PC; yes, if they so wished to could sell with LinuxPPC installed, but it's not their OS and it's not their support problem.
On the other hand, it's like demanding VAR research install Win9X on their systems when you buy from them, no?
AS
AS
Just realized it was a humor post...
Like most things funny, it also embedded more than a kernal of truth =)
Hey, if it didn't mean anything, it wouldn't be funny! I finally got through after 15 minutes(It could have been shorter, but I was busy and not paying attention)
Slashdot should have some sort of self-ranking/flame counter... Perhaps counting posts with sux/rox/rulez/moron/idiot/troll in their text? While rough and approximate, it would be funny to try and figure out some sort of S/N ratio...
AS
AS
Well, anyhow, before I read the article, I wanted to make a statistical observation:
The more an article is read/seen, the more likely it will also be flamed, so keeping that in mind, the ratio of flames/rank would be highest for those articles that only got 1 post, with it being a flame, over another article with hundreds of posts and several flames...
Another point is that in order to draw posts and comments, people get excited and sensationalistic in disproportion to the actual content or reality of the article. Still... I have to read the article to be sure, eh?
Sigh, crunch crunch slog...
AS
AS
What the heck was that all about?
Of course, if you are trolling, the fact that you got a few good replies obviously worked...
Though it's flattering to see most of the discussion generated by your post(I did the original "Trolls, lamers, and flamers, please ignore!" post), the point is to be sorta useful...
AMD5x86 was intentionally supposed to be cheap; Intel always has a high price premium(Except for their Celerons...).
While I don't use Juno, who are you to judge or criticize? My dad doesn't know Unix or PCs very well, so he's stuck with Win9x even though its unstable and crashes... For the longest time I had him using my NT machine until I came back to school. And excuse me, but I've been running NT on a PPro200/P2-266 for the past 4 years, and on a P120 for the past 4 months, with perfectly acceptable performance. Sure, something better than a P120 is nice, but a P120 is cheap man.
A P166 is so much faster than my P120...
I sorta wish I knew how to find you to give you a real scolding...
AS
AS
Great, not only will corporations and such have to worry about Y2k issues and bugs, they have to also deal with W2k issues and bugs; I wonder if this is just an opportunity for small startups and no names to write/port to W2k first, before bigger houses, and have access to the newer features?
Change of OS provides many new opportunites, as well as inconveniences. Of course, the new opportunites aren't really for the end users, even if that is how it is advertised... But since when have big companies cared about us end users? =)
AS
AS
Of course that will probably attract all three of the above!
Oh well. Still, here's the warning; there is no need for M$4ever posts, or rulez/sux!, or general flames, bashing, or trash. Serious question...
Has any one used and been satsified by M$? Are they really just 'good enough'? Or are they not? While I generally don't approve of their tactics or their OS, they are 'good enough' for me; I use WinNT on a 200MHz PPro with 96mb of memory. I surf, email, telnet, word process, excel, photoshop, and DES/RC5, as well as use Winamp and the odd game of Civ2.
I do plan to build myself a Linux box in the future, for educational purposes and such... But for each niche their respective strengths and weaknesses. M$ just happens to be convenient, easy to learn/use, and powerful enough with a decent system. Perhaps it isn't suited for desktop publishing, or as a server of files/html/mail/etc, or as a serious multi-media processing station. But for playing around with pictures, and doing the odd html/email/ftp, or the usage of decent 3d graphics, or the programming of the small program, or the playing of games, it seems okay. That may be the biggest thing Linux has to conquer; Heck, as far as consumer growth, Apple and MacOSX has a better potential, if only because it has all the important user features as well as the future OS support...
Comments?
AS
I may be bored of it sometimes, and not read the news/posts/rumors on it, but this trial is actually pretty important, even if it got started by something as inconsequential as a web browser. But then again, Al Capone got busted for tax evasion, right?
Gee, all we ever seem to get are posts from trolls(MS4ever) and idiots(Linux Rulez! M$ sux!). Hmm, a new RPG, T&I? Anyhow, I was wondering if there existed any moderates, or are they all scared off by the T&I, as well as flamers and such. Are there absolutely no sucess stories at all? Maybe this is the wrong place to ask...
AS
AS
Freeware as opposed to buying stuff?
Sure, I will gladly take free, but I wonder what the attitude signifies; if something is useful, valuable, and powerful, I will pay good money for it. I assume people are like this regardless of background, origin, or nationality. Am I wrong here?
All the arguments for OSS means you get control over your computer and life. If something is wrong, broken, or missing, you can fix it. There is nothing inherently superior/inferrior about OSS over closed source except for the ability to tinker with it, as it has been proven before that quality, features, and support are not functions of or relating to a closed source commercial model. Heck, OSS doesn't even mean cheap or inexpensive, though it very often has.
Freeware:is it a movement, a philosophy, or just a term? From the user's standpoint I assume it means paying for nothing. From the programmer's standpoint I assume it means no exhange of cash for goods. The question is where does the feedback occur? Why is there more than one generation of free software if source isn't available and feedback doesn't exist? In OSS the original author could get bored, tired, or die, and the software lives because someone else decides they need some functionality, and contribute, and in the nature of OSS, release said contribution.
In the commercial side, people get paid for their programs; if said payment offsets costs and efforts, continued energy is put into making the program better and better(hopefully) in exchange for a permanent and future user base willing and necessary to upgrade for new functionality, features, or performance.
There can even be a mix of the two, as in iD software's DooM and Quake games, with the mixture of commercial product and open tools, mods, hacks, and games, as well as licensed games and such.
Is Freeware just about accepting low quality for low cost, a function of 'getting what you pay for?', because Free software writers still need to eat and survive, right?
AS
AS
Yeah, I understand your caution, but the article really is hype. As I understand it, science has always been hyped to the public as the next best thing since sliced bread =)
There are definite possibilites and strange characteristics, which we may be able to harness even if not in a traditional computing sense. Even the fact that fullerenes can display metallic, semi-metallitc, insulative, and superconductive properties, depending on impurities and construction, gives us a lot of hope that we can do something unique and wonderful with them. Perhaps the electrical contact issue can be resolved by using the tubes themselves as wires, rather than metals... I'm sure many options are being considered, discarded, re-examined, and discovered.
Though I applaud your voicing caution amid hype =)
Couldn't help but notice your email... A physicist, perhaps? Materials science? Chemist? I think cory is the EE/CS network, because my friend is also at Berkeley right now. What real options/opinions and ideas are being done right now for fullerenes?
AS
AS