They're not called Chipzilla for nothing. I can't remember the last time Intel had poor yields ( or were admitting to it) but this has been an issue for pretty much everyone else for years, particularly AMD.
My reading comprehension is just fine but thank you all the same. And, if you thought I was being insulting, then you're easily offended.
But, since some clarification appears to be in order, I'll give it a shot.
You wrote: "they're mundane on random reads and writes" and linked to (http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3667&p=6), which compared 2 of the better performing HDDs with a number of SSDs, as you well know. Since SSDs are still quite the expensive novelty, notwithstanding the growing popularity of netbooks, then the common i.e. "mundane" experience would be that of PCs with HDDs. To have a user,who has only ever used PCs with HDDs, try any of the SSDs on that list who be to change his or her entire concept of what using a computer is all about. Of course, the higher price and lower capacity would quickly dissuade the average user from purchasing one but to have them then go back to their everyday PC would quickly remind them just how "mundane" their daily experience truly is. I hope this has been sufficiently clear.
shows that, for HDDs, the random write rate at 4kb is 0.8 MB/s ( Seagate Momentus 5400.6 ) and 1.5 MB/s ( Velociraptor 300 GB). Now, since I use primarily a notebook, the Velociraptor is a non-starter. I'm also excluding all the SLC drives as they are just too expensive right now for a given capacity. The Intel MLC drives rate at 36-40 MB/s and the Indilinx-based are 13 MB/s - an impressive 3x advantage for Intel. But, mundane? That would be an accurate description of the HDD performance where the much-vaunted Velociraptor is 3x SLOWER than the Samsung-based MLC and almost 9x slower than the Indilinx ones.
The picture for laptop users like myself is even worse ( or better depending on where you stand ). The Seagate Momentus 5400.6 500GB can barely manage 1/5th the random write speed of the Summit and a mere 6% of any of the Indilinx drives. Now, THAT is "mundane"
Amazing what Intel managed with a firmware update - up to THIRTY PERCENT improvement in write speed. I'm betting their design still has significant headroom left in the sequential writes department but , as I said before, they're protecting their premium SLC, the X-25E
Not so fast. SSDs don't write a page at a time but a BLOCK ( or several). Also, your calculations are for writing but you didn't factor in the erase time which is 3 times as long.
So, if your math is right, the max speed would be a lot lower - which is clearly wrong.
Also, you don't explain how the other controllers which have fewer channels can have such higher sequential write speeds.
So the first X-25M were blazing fast reads and pretty amazing at small file writes but somehow ground to a halt at 75 MB/s - about the speed of a really good hard disk 3 years ago.
I hear the G2 drives can do 100 MB/s with a firmware update. Now, I know that you want to save the really fast writes for your SLC version cause that much more moo-lay but c'mon - 100 MB/s for a $400 drive, that's artificially limited. No thanks, until you let the drive perform to its proper capability ( i'm guessing 160 MB/s sequential writes) it's OCZ or Patriot for me ( I already own at least one from each of them )
Good Lord!! Did my little post cause this projectile vomitus?
I think you're replying to every post on this topic, and possibly a few others, all at once.
The non-starter argument for Intel and its fab volume production is poppycock. Chipzilla had plenty of fabs and plenty of clout and there were enough innovations in the Alpha architecture that they didn't need to implement everything at once. And, to top it off, Intel had essentially acquired the Alpha lock, stock and barrel from HP and probably thought they owned the world - x86 was well entrenched, they were partnered with HP on the architecture of the future, the Itanic and AMD, well, what could they do?
As far as the x86 ISA, it stayed ahead of the RISC designs by essentially co-opting the competition, where each x86 instruction was split into smaller micro-ops. I'm not sure who was the first of the x86 makers to do this - perhaps NexGen, later absorbed into AMD.
The success of the x86 is mind-boggling considering all the true innovation that has been happening around it for 3 decades. Can its success be attributed to nothing more than Intel's fabrication capabilities and M$ support? Even Intel's shiny new Nehalem architecture is not much more than an updating of the DEC Alpha ( ditto for AMD but their designs, at least, have been based on it for 10 years.
He was doing both. If fusion is of any interest to you, you should watch both him and Eric Lerner. Very informative even if some think it's impractical. Despite his advanced years, Dr Bussard presented very well. One drawback was the use of slides through an overhead projector - made details difficult to see.
This one http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606#, by the now-deceased Dr Robert Bussard, is also very interesting as he was involved in nuclear research for over 50 years. He jokes that the Russian gave us the Tokamak to make sure we'd never get fusion. "100 billion stars in the sky and not one is toroidal"
You've got it slightly backward. The Conservatives have been soft-peddling a compromise agenda because it's been clear that they weren't about to win a majority government. Right now, they're sitting pretty sweet so I foresee them starting to push their true agenda more strongly, daring the fractured Opposition to trigger an election. I'm not so sure about the the right and left comparison between our politicos and those of the US. It does seem that the biggest difference is the leverage of the moneyed interests on both parties and that Americans still fear the shadow of the Big Red Dog. Newsflash, folks - not everything in the free market is good / not everything in socialism is bad. It does take wisdom to find a strong balance.
On balance, I'm strongly opposed to most of the legislation the Conservatives would like to pass and the weak enforcement of the ones that they pass grudgingly. It's never going to happen, in this life, that I agree or disagree with everything a government wants or does. I'm okay with this one as it stands but there are many others that I'd like to see overturned or squelched.
We were, mostly levelheaded until the right-wing nuts managed a takeover of the center-right - sound familiar? Then the centrist and center-left basically fell apart and, shockingly, the only thing preventing the minority government from gaining a majority, which would really screw anyone who gives a damn about basic freedoms, global warming, equal rights and transparency in government are the Quebec sovereignists.
Don't be naive - Japan's defiance in the dying days of World War 2 was mostly posturing. They'd already been invaded by the Soviet Union and many of their cities had been heavily bombed for months. They couldn't have held out much longer.
And you can hardly hold the US up as an example of righteousness - they invaded the Philippines at the turn of the 20th century, remember? Quite a few casualties there. Oh, and as for the Koreans - it took over 50 years of lawsuits to get any restitution for the 20000+ who were killed in the bombing of Hiroshima
Japan was the perfect foil for the US to show their power - an island nation, well away from the mainland, full of nothing but full of weird, yellow people who had the audacity to assault us and who thought us inferior. Dropping the atom bombs wasn't firing back, it was a hate crime.
The overall tax burden in Finland is 43% of GDP - quite high but you get a lot of services for it, including healthcare and free university education. I'm not really on board with the 1 MB now, 100 MB soon for all but there are some signficant positive side effects - job creation, ensuring companies keep investing in their infrastructure, possible stimulation of R&D in high-tech.
Where I live, in Southern Ontario, my DSL is limited by the line quality of my neighborhood, which is poor ( both the lines and the vicinity ). I can do nothing about it except move elsewhere or switch to the monopoly cable company whom I despise. If there was a minimum service level with a date for service upgrades, I would have both hope and recourse. As it is, I'm left to choose either the devil I have or the devil I don't want.
Let me add that my DSL is resold - so I'm actually limited by the power and policy of the telco. They can't be forced to do anything about the line quality and their traffic shaping impacts me even though I'm not their direct customer.
I wonder how hard it would be to emigrate to Finland? Cold weather doesn't bother me although lack of sunshine does.
Liable, sure. But that doesn't do you any good if your business can't function. You could always try suing the consultant but that's hardly a short term solution.
Let's not forget that because they THINK you're infringing, doesn't mean you are but their tactics have been so heavy-handed ( at least here in Southern Ontario), that the tech-unsavvy are left helpless and crippled.
A lot of small businesses who have servers onsite typically have only 1, sometimes 2 boxes doing EVERYTHING. If that gets messed with, or in several cases, confiscated, they're dead in the water.
The BSA operates like a SWAT team on small businesses and are very disruptive. Trust me, if you a small shop relying on a consultant for your support, you don't want them showing up.
Listen carefully to the whooshing sound of my point flying over your head. Hitler was a madman or a psychopath and I have tremendous respect for Barack Obama although I think he's being too much of a nice guy considering the strident opposition.
bheer's point was that all Obama has going for him is oratory. My point was that, in the right political / societal climate, that can and has been a powerful tool for change. I never implied that the change was desirable.
Slashdot Mirror
Being a nutjob never hurt Rush Limbaugh or any number of right-wingnuts.
They're not called Chipzilla for nothing. I can't remember the last time Intel had poor yields ( or were admitting to it)
but this has been an issue for pretty much everyone else for years, particularly AMD.
My reading comprehension is just fine but thank you all the same. And, if you thought I was being insulting, then you're easily offended.
But, since some clarification appears to be in order, I'll give it a shot.
You wrote: "they're mundane on random reads and writes" and linked to (http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3667&p=6), which compared 2 of the better performing HDDs with a number of SSDs, as you well know. ,who has only ever used PCs with HDDs, try any of the SSDs on that list who be to change his or her entire concept of what using a computer is all about. Of course, the higher price and lower capacity would quickly dissuade the average user from purchasing one but to have them then go back to their everyday PC would quickly remind them just how "mundane" their daily experience truly is.
Since SSDs are still quite the expensive novelty, notwithstanding the growing popularity of netbooks, then the common i.e. "mundane" experience would be that of PCs with HDDs.
To have a user
I hope this has been sufficiently clear.
I took a look at the AnandTech link you posted and from the data shown, I wonder if you quite truly understand the meaning of "mundane".
Here's a definition from dictionary.com:
2. common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative.
The link
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3667&p=6
shows that, for HDDs, the random write rate at 4kb is 0.8 MB/s ( Seagate Momentus 5400.6 ) and 1.5 MB/s ( Velociraptor 300 GB).
Now, since I use primarily a notebook, the Velociraptor is a non-starter.
I'm also excluding all the SLC drives as they are just too expensive right now for a given capacity.
The Intel MLC drives rate at 36-40 MB/s and the Indilinx-based are 13 MB/s - an impressive 3x advantage for Intel.
But, mundane? That would be an accurate description of the HDD performance where the much-vaunted Velociraptor is 3x SLOWER than the Samsung-based MLC and almost 9x slower than the Indilinx ones.
The picture for laptop users like myself is even worse ( or better depending on where you stand ).
The Seagate Momentus 5400.6 500GB can barely manage 1/5th the random write speed of the Summit and a mere 6% of any of the Indilinx drives.
Now, THAT is "mundane"
I'd made a typo in the original post - it should have been WRITE speed not READ.
Anyway, if you still disagree with me, have a look at http://hothardware.com/Articles/Intel-34nm-X25M-Gen-2-SSD-Performance-Update/?page=1
Amazing what Intel managed with a firmware update - up to THIRTY PERCENT improvement in write speed.
I'm betting their design still has significant headroom left in the sequential writes department but , as I said before, they're protecting their premium SLC, the X-25E
Tradeoff my ass. It's an artificial limitation.
Not so fast. SSDs don't write a page at a time but a BLOCK ( or several). Also, your calculations are for writing but you didn't factor in the erase time which is 3 times as long.
So, if your math is right, the max speed would be a lot lower - which is clearly wrong.
Also, you don't explain how the other controllers which have fewer channels can have such higher sequential write speeds.
So the first X-25M were blazing fast reads and pretty amazing at small file writes but somehow ground to a halt at 75 MB/s - about the speed
of a really good hard disk 3 years ago.
I hear the G2 drives can do 100 MB/s with a firmware update. Now, I know that you want to save the really fast writes for your SLC version
cause that much more moo-lay but c'mon - 100 MB/s for a $400 drive, that's artificially limited.
No thanks, until you let the drive perform to its proper capability ( i'm guessing 160 MB/s sequential writes) it's OCZ or Patriot for me ( I already own at least
one from each of them )
Good Lord!! Did my little post cause this projectile vomitus?
I think you're replying to every post on this topic, and possibly a few others, all at once.
The non-starter argument for Intel and its fab volume production is poppycock.
Chipzilla had plenty of fabs and plenty of clout and there were enough innovations in the Alpha architecture that they didn't need to implement everything at once.
And, to top it off, Intel had essentially acquired the Alpha lock, stock and barrel from HP and probably thought they owned the world - x86 was well entrenched, they were partnered with HP on the architecture of the future, the Itanic and AMD, well, what could they do?
As far as the x86 ISA, it stayed ahead of the RISC designs by essentially co-opting the competition, where each x86 instruction was split into smaller micro-ops.
I'm not sure who was the first of the x86 makers to do this - perhaps NexGen, later absorbed into AMD.
The success of the x86 is mind-boggling considering all the true innovation that has been happening around it
for 3 decades. Can its success be attributed to nothing more than Intel's fabrication capabilities and M$ support?
Even Intel's shiny new Nehalem architecture is not much more than an updating of the DEC Alpha ( ditto for AMD
but their designs, at least, have been based on it for 10 years.
How about this? Keep your phone instead of getting the new hotness every year or two, potentially acquiring yet another charger ( proprietary or not )
For fuck's sake people, we managed to cross the oceans, explore uncharted territory, and go to outer space without a cell phone in every pocket.
He was probably using Google Translate
The Koreans carriers back in late 2005 and China a year later. It's about bloody time - the world needs less junk.
He was doing both. If fusion is of any interest to you, you should watch both him and Eric Lerner.
Very informative even if some think it's impractical.
Despite his advanced years, Dr Bussard presented very well. One drawback was the use of slides through an overhead projector - made details difficult to see.
Aside from you missing the joke, you have to admit that legs have an advantage.
Stairs? Legs
Uneven surfaces? Legs, possibly
Steep inclines? Legs
We built cars with wheels because it's a much simpler construct. But, one day, we'll have both:
a car that has both wheels and legs.
And, for the record, just because we've named them Jaguars, Mustangs and Ponys, doesn't make cars into animals.
Both you and the GP should go watch http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1518007279479871760# . Eric Lerner presented at Google, presumably looking for funding a couple of years ago. I've watched it a few times - very interesting stuff.
This one http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606#, by the now-deceased Dr Robert Bussard, is also very interesting
as he was involved in nuclear research for over 50 years. He jokes that the Russian gave us the Tokamak to make sure we'd never get fusion.
"100 billion stars in the sky and not one is toroidal"
You've got it slightly backward. The Conservatives have been soft-peddling a compromise agenda because it's been clear that they weren't about to win a majority government.
Right now, they're sitting pretty sweet so I foresee them starting to push their true agenda more strongly, daring the fractured Opposition to trigger an election.
I'm not so sure about the the right and left comparison between our politicos and those of the US.
It does seem that the biggest difference is the leverage of the moneyed interests on both parties
and that Americans still fear the shadow of the Big Red Dog.
Newsflash, folks - not everything in the free market is good / not everything in socialism is bad. It does take wisdom to find a strong balance.
On balance, I'm strongly opposed to most of the legislation the Conservatives would like to pass and the weak enforcement of the ones that they pass grudgingly.
It's never going to happen, in this life, that I agree or disagree with everything a government wants or does. I'm okay with this one as it stands but there are many others that I'd like to see overturned or squelched.
We were, mostly levelheaded until the right-wing nuts managed a takeover of the center-right - sound familiar?
Then the centrist and center-left basically fell apart and, shockingly, the only thing preventing the minority government
from gaining a majority, which would really screw anyone who gives a damn about basic freedoms, global warming,
equal rights and transparency in government are the Quebec sovereignists.
Scary times indeed.
Don't be naive - Japan's defiance in the dying days of World War 2 was mostly posturing. They'd already been invaded by the Soviet Union
and many of their cities had been heavily bombed for months. They couldn't have held out much longer.
And you can hardly hold the US up as an example of righteousness - they invaded the Philippines at the turn of the 20th century, remember?
Quite a few casualties there. Oh, and as for the Koreans - it took over 50 years of lawsuits to get any restitution for the 20000+
who were killed in the bombing of Hiroshima
Japan was the perfect foil for the US to show their power - an island nation, well away from the mainland, full of nothing but full
of weird, yellow people who had the audacity to assault us and who thought us inferior. Dropping the atom bombs wasn't firing back, it was a hate crime.
The overall tax burden in Finland is 43% of GDP - quite high but you get a lot of services for it, including healthcare and free university education.
I'm not really on board with the 1 MB now, 100 MB soon for all but there are some signficant positive side effects - job creation, ensuring companies
keep investing in their infrastructure, possible stimulation of R&D in high-tech.
Where I live, in Southern Ontario, my DSL is limited by the line quality of my neighborhood, which is poor ( both the lines and the vicinity ).
I can do nothing about it except move elsewhere or switch to the monopoly cable company whom I despise.
If there was a minimum service level with a date for service upgrades, I would have both hope and recourse. As it is, I'm left to choose
either the devil I have or the devil I don't want.
Let me add that my DSL is resold - so I'm actually limited by the power and policy of the telco. They can't be forced to do anything about
the line quality and their traffic shaping impacts me even though I'm not their direct customer.
I wonder how hard it would be to emigrate to Finland? Cold weather doesn't bother me although lack of sunshine does.
Liable, sure. But that doesn't do you any good if your business can't function. You could always try suing the consultant but that's hardly a short term solution.
Let's not forget that because they THINK you're infringing, doesn't mean you are but their tactics have been so heavy-handed ( at least here in Southern Ontario), that the tech-unsavvy are left helpless and crippled.
A lot of small businesses who have servers onsite typically have only 1, sometimes 2 boxes doing EVERYTHING. If that gets messed with, or in several cases, confiscated, they're dead in the water.
The BSA operates like a SWAT team on small businesses and are very disruptive. Trust me, if you a small shop relying on a consultant for your support, you don't want them showing up.
How this this get Modded up to 5? And how is it informative?
Listen carefully to the whooshing sound of my point flying over your head. Hitler was a madman or a psychopath and I have tremendous respect for Barack Obama although I think he's being too much of a nice guy considering the strident opposition.
bheer's point was that all Obama has going for him is oratory. My point was that, in the right political / societal climate, that can and has been a powerful tool for change.
I never implied that the change was desirable.
Don't knock oratorial skills - it's pretty much all the Fuhrer had going for him and look what
he accomplished.