No idea about other countries, but the US makes you sign a form that states you understand that you stayed beyond the time allowed by the visa. That is kept on record in case you want to return to the US and will be used in the decision on whether or not to grant you a visa again.
My cousin, from South Africa (his brother lives in NY legally and is a citizen now) decided shortly after 9/11 to leave the US voluntarily, as he had been in the US illegally for about 4 years, he only had a 3 month tourist visa. At some point he wants to move here, his brother will sponsor him (or I will), so leaving voluntarily as opposed to being rounded up at some point and deported was his only choice. They basically made him sign a form that he realized being in the US past his visa was wrong, and that it may or not may affect his chances in the future, but leaving of his own volition was his best option.
You can take that one step further, usually whatever country you are moving to will charge you taxes on whatever assets you are bringing into the country if you are emigrating (I know South Africa is like that as I lived there as a permanent resident for a long time before returning to the US - I am a citizen, essentially a State Dep kid)
BTW, you do not have to renounce your citizenship to stop having to pay the IRS, if you have been living outside the country for an extended period of time (16 years in my case when I was growing up after my mother quit the State Dep and settled in South Africa as a perm resident, not a citizen), you do not pay taxes (unless you receive some sort of income from the US while abroad, then you pay the taxes). For the 16 years in SA, my mother never had to pay any taxes, and never had to renounce anything, although I do believe she did file some sort of form (taxes related, but not an actual tax form) to the IRS every year stating we were living outside the US and did not receive any income from any US entities.
There is a huge difference though, its not that we are preventing people from leaving, its we are documenting who is leaving. They can call it whatever they want, using illegal immigration (which I will admit is a problem) is just a means to an end.
Now on the other hand, I could care less if they fingerprint me, my prints are on record with every federal agency known to man (through my security clearances and work at various federal and civilian gov agencies).
At the same time, I honestly do not have a problem with people being identified, as long as the data is kept secure, and not abused (this is where the problems start to come up). It's when they start to create massive databases of not just your identity, but add your travel habits, buying habits, personal things about you, sexual preferences etc, and then start to use that data to preempt things like crime, or use it to prevent you from getting insurance/medical/etc... thats where I start having issues...
Is when the products that are being used to protect your network, themselves have vulnerabilities.
I will use a large, very large company as an example. They make AV, they make IDS's (although crappy), they make firewalls, and they sell smaller stuff to the general public... It starts with a giant S....
Long story short, a few years back they had a vulnerability in the way their stack did deep packet inspection, this particular piece of code was shared across their entire product line. Well, their all in one device that did AV, content management, firewall, email, IPS etc etc used this particular piece of vulnerable code in each of those functions.... That essentially made the device useless till they patched the problem.
This is of course one of the arguments against using a single company for all your products, and in the enviroments I manage or design, I intentionally choose products from various vendors to prevent problems like the above from occurring.
The biggest problem with most open source offerings, is lack of support. Businesses want support, and while yes some of those offerings may have support (I have not looked), the quality is most likely no where near close to what pure commercial entities can offer.
Unbiased reviews do exist, but they are generally paid for by someone. One example would be a document that was a good 200 pages long, pitting various log aggregation and correlation devices/software against each other (Netforensics and Arsight to name 2). It was extremely thorough, and useful, but was done by a consulting/contracting company (with no vested interest in any of the products or organizations) for a large Federal/DoD entity. The damn thing was wrapped in so many NDA's that no one outside the Federal/DoD entity and the authors themselves can see it.
That is exactly what I said to a few of my friends..
Seriously people.. these are fictional movies.. they are for entertainment purpose only, not a fact based historical documentary based on events a thousand years in the future...
Same goes for transformers, wolverine, etc etc..... Go out... take the girl to the movie.. enjoy it for its entertainment value, and hopefully get laid (if you start to pick apart the movie.. the odds of you getting laid drops significantly)
Same reason you can still buy new technology 40g drives... because 100 striped 40 gig drives will absolutely destroy 4 1tb drives in performance and redundancy....
My guess was that this was not a DoD system, and probably not at the DoD facilities, but rather at the contractor facilities.
They are however (which is written into the contract that was signed when the project was awarded) required to comply with DoD regulations. It appears that in this case, probably during a technology refresh would be my guess, that there was a shit ton of old equipment, and the IT folks got lazy, since securely wiping a drive without a degausser of sorts takes a very long time.
The problem is not necessarily from a gov branch, but most likely a supporting contractor, in this case Lockheed martin.
Same reason why those same contractors are forbidden from using VPN from gov facilities (DOD and Federal atleast) to their home offices. In the past, a certain contractor from a certain company at a certain 5 pointed facility introduced some lovely malware that spread like wildfire fromthe contractors company to the gov facility.
However, like I said, while policy says what not to do, deadlines and management looking the other way sometimes to meet those deadlines and whatnot go against those policies, sometimes nothing happens, sometimes bad things happen.
Certain 3 letter facilities in the US do that.. in fact, any electronic equipment going in.. never leaves. I have seen the destruction of a thumb drive that accidentally made it into the facility (many people arrived for a meeting there), but was caught on the way out and destroyed.
Same facility provides all electronic equipment needed for various press events and what not.
There are much quicker ways then that. In fact, at my old office, we had NSA approved degaussing equipment for hard drives, that destroyed the data permanently (no amount of forensics will be able to retrieve it), but left the drive itself intact for reuse or resale.
The fun part of course is that when you turn it on.. 2 or 3 floors of lights all dimmed at the same time for a few seconds while it powered up and it hummed.. loudly... Thats a powerful magnet:)
What do you mean unofficial.. there is no such thing in the WinMo world. Anyone can create and distribute apps for WinMo devices, in any way they please.
The only thing that the Windows Market place is allowing for is the ability for developers to create applications that can be sold through a 1 stop shopping space directly on the phone.
there is nothing stopping users from buying apps from developer websites, handango, or whatever other distribution method is out there, and installing via activesync. These are still official applications.
As for the VOIP thing, well thats to appease the carriers. And no, MS does not have to allow applications that will point to competing market place applications. Thats like Walmart selling you a coupon that points to best buy to buy a piece of software...
I read the rules a few days ago, I do not see anything wrong with them. As someone else pointed out, if you don't like those rules, go elsewhere, thats the advantage of WinMo, unlike Apple where you have to jailbreak if you want to do anything fun
disclaimer, I have an iphone.. but I also have half a dozen winmo phones too.
While you have valid points, no one has posted a copy of their bill. But its almost guaranteed that they are paying the tariffs taxes and fees that every other telco/cable company charges their users that are actually gov mandated, and not below the line price increases, which TWC is full of, and for that matter, so does verizon and comcast (those are the 2 choices I had.. I went with FIOS)
First off, I am not defending TWC or Embarq.. in fact, I hate all cable companies with a passion, and only slightly less hate for Verizon (but thats cos I am in FIOS area), otherwise I hate the rest of the telcos as well.
As for your comment, many of those countries that offer those high speeds do not actually have competition, much of it is state run, or the infrastructure was created by the state, and then leased to providers. At the same time, many of those countries don't get unlimited bandwidth, much of it is actually usage based (bandwidth going across sat's and ocean lines is not cheap).
But the biggest reason, is that many of those states and countries have very dense cities where those speeds are offered, and literally nothing in the rural areas, and have a much smaller footprint that they have to cover the cost on to build that infrastructure.
The US, is the exact opposite, yes we have major metro areas that are dense, but much of the US is spread out in suburbs (and the telco's/cable companies like to pick and choose only those deemed profitable), and the cost to wire those areas is significantly higher.
btw, I lived most of my life in other countries, including some considered third world, so I talk from a little experience.
They are not sueing, they are lobbying the state gov to override the rights of local gov's to prevent them from providing services, whether or not they use tax money (and its already been stated that so far almost all of the city/county gov provided services use bonds, and not tax dollars).
And more to the point, who cares if it does indeed use tax dollars, if 90% of the populace of a particular area vote in favour of a project that uses tax dollars, that to mee seems like democracy at work, majority rule, because obviously 90% of the populace are unhappy with the current situation, which in many cases is poor service from gov provided monopolies....
Wasn't your tax money used in the first place when TWC and almost every other utility, private or otherwise), got subsidies and rights of way to run their initial coax/fiber lines in the first place.
SIPR and JWICS are isolated secure networks, NIPR is the non secure network that interfaces with the public internet. This is where most of the problems occur.
Do we need to step up security across our networks? Hells yes. But I'd rather see an Internet "militia," if you will, comprising experts from every part of the computer industry (including open source) who could collaborate with the military and with other government and non-government agencies to secure their networks from attack.
Actually, this already exists, google for GFIST and NCRCG. I have participated in both. NCRCG to a lesser extent is primarily a reactive group, which has members from the 13 or so DOD, Federal Law Enforcement agencies and Federal Civilian agencies which are considered critical to the US infrastructure. GFIRST, is a larger group, consisting of CERT type groups and security personnel from all walks of life, banking, medical, federal law enforcement and federal civilian, local and state gov, utilities, etc, who meet (used to be at least once a month, not sure any more as I am no longer involved) and discuss the current problems facing the security of those networks. Some of those meetings require clearances, some do not, and they are usually hosted by random gov entities who donate conference space. Many of the things discussed in these meetings will never see the light of day public ally, but be aware that the issues reported on here are not new, only recently declassified.
It wouldn't be perfect, but it would work a lot better in my mind than trusting the security of our networks to either (A) a six-year-old checklist in the hands of an E-2 or (B) an overpaid contractor who's taking kickbacks from Microsoft, Cisco, et al, to promote one particular and proprietary solution.
I sort of take offense at this, I happen to be one of those contractors, and certainly not overpaid (I wish I was). In my capacity as a senior security engineer, and as a consultant, I have never (and neither have any of my co workers, across 3 very large well known companies) taken pressure to push a solution that a vendor has pushed on us. We have always taken the clients needs, and devised a solution that best fits the client, and the personnel that the client employs (you don't want to push a solution that would take 6 months to staff or retrain staff).
Unfortunately, while it is supposed to be physically isolated, there have been times (and I have witnessed this) where stupid admins, or rather admins under extreme pressure from higher ups to get something done, have ended up connecting machines on SIPR and JWICS to NIPR, and then forgetting to disconnect after whatever they did was done, so you end up bridging the networks, oh, there are are for some reason still plenty of analogue modem lines on some of those secured networks (although some are secured with crypto cards)
The classified networks (SIPR and JWICS) are well isolated and while the chances of a vulnerability being exploited on those networks is slim, it has happened before. Mostly due to older workstations on those networks where stupid admins and people multi home their systems on the secure and non secure NIPRNET, which is against policy, and very much a no no, but it does happen....
While some of what you stated is correct, the problem is more that people working at these secure locations are the problem. The secure networks (SIPR NET [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIPRNET] and JWICS [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JWICS]) are extremely secure. The problem with secrets leaking out is with the way people handle them, those with clearances are supposed to know how to handle the information, but in many cases, simply due to the difficulties of moving that information around in official capacities, that information ends up on the NIPR NET [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIPRNET], which is essentially the normal internet/network access for users in secured facilities.
The networks above are isolated from each other, but that won't stop people from manually moving data from secure networks to non secure networks for ease of use.
I have had the opportunity to use the secured networks, and the workstations on those networks are locked down, hard, it is impossible to do almost anything but look at the web portals on those networks, and send email, and a few of the more specialized client/server applications that run on those networks.
Of course alot of it is windows, whether or not we like it, Windows is the current standard for the desktop and the easiest to support currently. On the other hand, there are 2 to 3 completely separate networks, 1 of those is the public net, the others are isolated and secure. Most of the cleanup work takes place on the non secured networks.
On the bright side, since I happen to work as a IA/IT security consultant, people using windows keeps me employed:)
There is a downside to the DVR's as well. I have a Tivo, I have had them since they came out way back when...
I have noticed that the networks are starting to schedule shows with a few minutes shifting here and there..
Example, you want to watch 4 different shows on 3 different networks, over a 2 hour period (2 1 hour shows on same network, 1 hour show on the other 2 networks), they will schedule one to start at 9:01 and end at 10, while the 2 other shows on different networks start at 9..
Fortunately Tivo allows clipping, so whichever has the higher priority gets recorded, the other loses the first min.
Now take that one step further and the various networks start moving show start and end times around in the various hours and it starts to become difficult to record everything you want (assuming you watch that much).
A side note, the DVR kinda killed Heros for my family, and a few other shows as well, we would record them while watching other shows, had about 8 episodes not watched, and just lost interest (granted Heros is kinda sucky at the moment so that adds to the problem too). I would be curious to know if other people have ended watching shows in a similar manner.
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No idea about other countries, but the US makes you sign a form that states you understand that you stayed beyond the time allowed by the visa. That is kept on record in case you want to return to the US and will be used in the decision on whether or not to grant you a visa again.
My cousin, from South Africa (his brother lives in NY legally and is a citizen now) decided shortly after 9/11 to leave the US voluntarily, as he had been in the US illegally for about 4 years, he only had a 3 month tourist visa. At some point he wants to move here, his brother will sponsor him (or I will), so leaving voluntarily as opposed to being rounded up at some point and deported was his only choice. They basically made him sign a form that he realized being in the US past his visa was wrong, and that it may or not may affect his chances in the future, but leaving of his own volition was his best option.
You can take that one step further, usually whatever country you are moving to will charge you taxes on whatever assets you are bringing into the country if you are emigrating (I know South Africa is like that as I lived there as a permanent resident for a long time before returning to the US - I am a citizen, essentially a State Dep kid)
BTW, you do not have to renounce your citizenship to stop having to pay the IRS, if you have been living outside the country for an extended period of time (16 years in my case when I was growing up after my mother quit the State Dep and settled in South Africa as a perm resident, not a citizen), you do not pay taxes (unless you receive some sort of income from the US while abroad, then you pay the taxes). For the 16 years in SA, my mother never had to pay any taxes, and never had to renounce anything, although I do believe she did file some sort of form (taxes related, but not an actual tax form) to the IRS every year stating we were living outside the US and did not receive any income from any US entities.
There is a huge difference though, its not that we are preventing people from leaving, its we are documenting who is leaving. They can call it whatever they want, using illegal immigration (which I will admit is a problem) is just a means to an end.
Now on the other hand, I could care less if they fingerprint me, my prints are on record with every federal agency known to man (through my security clearances and work at various federal and civilian gov agencies).
At the same time, I honestly do not have a problem with people being identified, as long as the data is kept secure, and not abused (this is where the problems start to come up). It's when they start to create massive databases of not just your identity, but add your travel habits, buying habits, personal things about you, sexual preferences etc, and then start to use that data to preempt things like crime, or use it to prevent you from getting insurance/medical/etc... thats where I start having issues...
Is when the products that are being used to protect your network, themselves have vulnerabilities.
I will use a large, very large company as an example. They make AV, they make IDS's (although crappy), they make firewalls, and they sell smaller stuff to the general public... It starts with a giant S....
Long story short, a few years back they had a vulnerability in the way their stack did deep packet inspection, this particular piece of code was shared across their entire product line. Well, their all in one device that did AV, content management, firewall, email, IPS etc etc used this particular piece of vulnerable code in each of those functions.... That essentially made the device useless till they patched the problem.
This is of course one of the arguments against using a single company for all your products, and in the enviroments I manage or design, I intentionally choose products from various vendors to prevent problems like the above from occurring.
The biggest problem with most open source offerings, is lack of support. Businesses want support, and while yes some of those offerings may have support (I have not looked), the quality is most likely no where near close to what pure commercial entities can offer.
Unbiased reviews do exist, but they are generally paid for by someone. One example would be a document that was a good 200 pages long, pitting various log aggregation and correlation devices/software against each other (Netforensics and Arsight to name 2). It was extremely thorough, and useful, but was done by a consulting/contracting company (with no vested interest in any of the products or organizations) for a large Federal/DoD entity. The damn thing was wrapped in so many NDA's that no one outside the Federal/DoD entity and the authors themselves can see it.
That is exactly what I said to a few of my friends..
Seriously people.. these are fictional movies.. they are for entertainment purpose only, not a fact based historical documentary based on events a thousand years in the future...
Same goes for transformers, wolverine, etc etc..... Go out... take the girl to the movie.. enjoy it for its entertainment value, and hopefully get laid (if you start to pick apart the movie.. the odds of you getting laid drops significantly)
Same reason you can still buy new technology 40g drives... because 100 striped 40 gig drives will absolutely destroy 4 1tb drives in performance and redundancy....
Atleast when it comes to SAN infrastructure..
My guess was that this was not a DoD system, and probably not at the DoD facilities, but rather at the contractor facilities.
They are however (which is written into the contract that was signed when the project was awarded) required to comply with DoD regulations. It appears that in this case, probably during a technology refresh would be my guess, that there was a shit ton of old equipment, and the IT folks got lazy, since securely wiping a drive without a degausser of sorts takes a very long time.
The problem is not necessarily from a gov branch, but most likely a supporting contractor, in this case Lockheed martin.
Same reason why those same contractors are forbidden from using VPN from gov facilities (DOD and Federal atleast) to their home offices. In the past, a certain contractor from a certain company at a certain 5 pointed facility introduced some lovely malware that spread like wildfire fromthe contractors company to the gov facility.
However, like I said, while policy says what not to do, deadlines and management looking the other way sometimes to meet those deadlines and whatnot go against those policies, sometimes nothing happens, sometimes bad things happen.
Certain 3 letter facilities in the US do that.. in fact, any electronic equipment going in.. never leaves. I have seen the destruction of a thumb drive that accidentally made it into the facility (many people arrived for a meeting there), but was caught on the way out and destroyed.
Same facility provides all electronic equipment needed for various press events and what not.
There are much quicker ways then that. In fact, at my old office, we had NSA approved degaussing equipment for hard drives, that destroyed the data permanently (no amount of forensics will be able to retrieve it), but left the drive itself intact for reuse or resale.
The fun part of course is that when you turn it on.. 2 or 3 floors of lights all dimmed at the same time for a few seconds while it powered up and it hummed.. loudly... Thats a powerful magnet :)
What do you mean unofficial.. there is no such thing in the WinMo world. Anyone can create and distribute apps for WinMo devices, in any way they please.
The only thing that the Windows Market place is allowing for is the ability for developers to create applications that can be sold through a 1 stop shopping space directly on the phone.
there is nothing stopping users from buying apps from developer websites, handango, or whatever other distribution method is out there, and installing via activesync. These are still official applications.
As for the VOIP thing, well thats to appease the carriers. And no, MS does not have to allow applications that will point to competing market place applications. Thats like Walmart selling you a coupon that points to best buy to buy a piece of software...
I read the rules a few days ago, I do not see anything wrong with them. As someone else pointed out, if you don't like those rules, go elsewhere, thats the advantage of WinMo, unlike Apple where you have to jailbreak if you want to do anything fun
disclaimer, I have an iphone.. but I also have half a dozen winmo phones too.
While you have valid points, no one has posted a copy of their bill. But its almost guaranteed that they are paying the tariffs taxes and fees that every other telco/cable company charges their users that are actually gov mandated, and not below the line price increases, which TWC is full of, and for that matter, so does verizon and comcast (those are the 2 choices I had.. I went with FIOS)
First off, I am not defending TWC or Embarq.. in fact, I hate all cable companies with a passion, and only slightly less hate for Verizon (but thats cos I am in FIOS area), otherwise I hate the rest of the telcos as well.
As for your comment, many of those countries that offer those high speeds do not actually have competition, much of it is state run, or the infrastructure was created by the state, and then leased to providers. At the same time, many of those countries don't get unlimited bandwidth, much of it is actually usage based (bandwidth going across sat's and ocean lines is not cheap).
But the biggest reason, is that many of those states and countries have very dense cities where those speeds are offered, and literally nothing in the rural areas, and have a much smaller footprint that they have to cover the cost on to build that infrastructure.
The US, is the exact opposite, yes we have major metro areas that are dense, but much of the US is spread out in suburbs (and the telco's/cable companies like to pick and choose only those deemed profitable), and the cost to wire those areas is significantly higher.
btw, I lived most of my life in other countries, including some considered third world, so I talk from a little experience.
They are not sueing, they are lobbying the state gov to override the rights of local gov's to prevent them from providing services, whether or not they use tax money (and its already been stated that so far almost all of the city/county gov provided services use bonds, and not tax dollars).
And more to the point, who cares if it does indeed use tax dollars, if 90% of the populace of a particular area vote in favour of a project that uses tax dollars, that to mee seems like democracy at work, majority rule, because obviously 90% of the populace are unhappy with the current situation, which in many cases is poor service from gov provided monopolies....
Wasn't your tax money used in the first place when TWC and almost every other utility, private or otherwise), got subsidies and rights of way to run their initial coax/fiber lines in the first place.
If you actually read the article (not saying that you did not, but apparently based on the comment), that is exactly what they did, not "could have".
They do, google NIPRNET SIPRNET and JWICS
SIPR and JWICS are isolated secure networks, NIPR is the non secure network that interfaces with the public internet. This is where most of the problems occur.
Do we need to step up security across our networks? Hells yes. But I'd rather see an Internet "militia," if you will, comprising experts from every part of the computer industry (including open source) who could collaborate with the military and with other government and non-government agencies to secure their networks from attack.
Actually, this already exists, google for GFIST and NCRCG. I have participated in both. NCRCG to a lesser extent is primarily a reactive group, which has members from the 13 or so DOD, Federal Law Enforcement agencies and Federal Civilian agencies which are considered critical to the US infrastructure. GFIRST, is a larger group, consisting of CERT type groups and security personnel from all walks of life, banking, medical, federal law enforcement and federal civilian, local and state gov, utilities, etc, who meet (used to be at least once a month, not sure any more as I am no longer involved) and discuss the current problems facing the security of those networks. Some of those meetings require clearances, some do not, and they are usually hosted by random gov entities who donate conference space. Many of the things discussed in these meetings will never see the light of day public ally, but be aware that the issues reported on here are not new, only recently declassified.
It wouldn't be perfect, but it would work a lot better in my mind than trusting the security of our networks to either (A) a six-year-old checklist in the hands of an E-2 or (B) an overpaid contractor who's taking kickbacks from Microsoft, Cisco, et al, to promote one particular and proprietary solution.
I sort of take offense at this, I happen to be one of those contractors, and certainly not overpaid (I wish I was). In my capacity as a senior security engineer, and as a consultant, I have never (and neither have any of my co workers, across 3 very large well known companies) taken pressure to push a solution that a vendor has pushed on us. We have always taken the clients needs, and devised a solution that best fits the client, and the personnel that the client employs (you don't want to push a solution that would take 6 months to staff or retrain staff).
Unfortunately, while it is supposed to be physically isolated, there have been times (and I have witnessed this) where stupid admins, or rather admins under extreme pressure from higher ups to get something done, have ended up connecting machines on SIPR and JWICS to NIPR, and then forgetting to disconnect after whatever they did was done, so you end up bridging the networks, oh, there are are for some reason still plenty of analogue modem lines on some of those secured networks (although some are secured with crypto cards)
The classified networks (SIPR and JWICS) are well isolated and while the chances of a vulnerability being exploited on those networks is slim, it has happened before. Mostly due to older workstations on those networks where stupid admins and people multi home their systems on the secure and non secure NIPRNET, which is against policy, and very much a no no, but it does happen....
While some of what you stated is correct, the problem is more that people working at these secure locations are the problem. The secure networks (SIPR NET [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIPRNET] and JWICS [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JWICS]) are extremely secure. The problem with secrets leaking out is with the way people handle them, those with clearances are supposed to know how to handle the information, but in many cases, simply due to the difficulties of moving that information around in official capacities, that information ends up on the NIPR NET [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIPRNET], which is essentially the normal internet/network access for users in secured facilities.
The networks above are isolated from each other, but that won't stop people from manually moving data from secure networks to non secure networks for ease of use.
I have had the opportunity to use the secured networks, and the workstations on those networks are locked down, hard, it is impossible to do almost anything but look at the web portals on those networks, and send email, and a few of the more specialized client/server applications that run on those networks.
Of course alot of it is windows, whether or not we like it, Windows is the current standard for the desktop and the easiest to support currently. On the other hand, there are 2 to 3 completely separate networks, 1 of those is the public net, the others are isolated and secure. Most of the cleanup work takes place on the non secured networks.
On the bright side, since I happen to work as a IA/IT security consultant, people using windows keeps me employed :)
There is a downside to the DVR's as well.
I have a Tivo, I have had them since they came out way back when...
I have noticed that the networks are starting to schedule shows with a few minutes shifting here and there..
Example, you want to watch 4 different shows on 3 different networks, over a 2 hour period (2 1 hour shows on same network, 1 hour show on the other 2 networks), they will schedule one to start at 9:01 and end at 10, while the 2 other shows on different networks start at 9..
Fortunately Tivo allows clipping, so whichever has the higher priority gets recorded, the other loses the first min.
Now take that one step further and the various networks start moving show start and end times around in the various hours and it starts to become difficult to record everything you want (assuming you watch that much).
A side note, the DVR kinda killed Heros for my family, and a few other shows as well, we would record them while watching other shows, had about 8 episodes not watched, and just lost interest (granted Heros is kinda sucky at the moment so that adds to the problem too). I would be curious to know if other people have ended watching shows in a similar manner.