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Homeland Security To Scan Citizens Exiting US
An anonymous reader writes "The US Department of Homeland Security is set to kickstart a controversial new pilot to scan the fingerprints of travellers departing the United States. From June, US Customs and Border Patrol will take a fingerprint scan of travellers exiting the United States from Detroit, while the US Transport Security Administration will take fingerprint scans of international travellers exiting the United States from Atlanta. The controversial plan to scan outgoing passengers — including US citizens — was allegedly hatched under the Bush Administration. An official has said it will be used in part to crack down on the US population of illegal immigrants."
"An official has said it will be used in part to crack down on the US population of illegal immigrants"
Why not just let them leave? And bar them when they try to come back. What is the point of catching someone you don't want in the country when they are leaving it??
You can see how they take little baby steps. One at a time. In ten years imagine what will be happening.
At this point the only people not recorded are child molesters living under bridges, oh, wait.
All countries exercise at least some control over who can enter, but there's only one kind of country that erects barriers to who can leave. How long until you guys build a wall? Oh, apparently you've started already.
it keeps creeping in, step by step, for as long as enough of us remain silent.
"We are trying to ensure we know more about who came and who left," [Michael Hardin] said. "We have a large population of illegal immigrants in the United States - we want to make sure the person getting on the plane really is the person the records show to be leaving."
huh? so the epidemic of people pretending to leave the country on commercial flights by booking flights and sending doppelgangers in their place is finally over! rejoice Americans! we are all now super safe!
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
None of the illegal immigrants I've ever met have arrived by airplane.
This leaves two options: either these guys are really stupid, or the real goal is different from the stated goal.
The thugs in government already mandated and received my fingerprints. They got them when I applied for the military and was 4-Fed (back problems), and when I applied for a medical license. In fact, it's mandated for a medical license now in most places. They take your fingerprints when you buy a gun. I mean, at this point, we're totally hosed. Welcome to the new police state.
Nothing to see here. Move on.
Yeah this seems like a real efficient way to catch illegal immigrants, I'm sure most of the come to the U.S. to catch international flights from Atlanta and Detroit. That's how dumb the government knows the average person is.
How do you get a U.S. passport if you're an illegal alien? Do they not do their homework when they review applications? I mean, come on. Not only has the application fee gone sky high, but now as a U.S. citizen -with a valid passport- you must be subjected this indignity as well. Honestly!
Sig this!
So how exactly does me LEAVING the country potentially flag me as an illegal immigrant?! Shouldn't you be scanning me as I ENTER the country?!
Ave Molech Setting
U.S. of A. the Land Of The Free. Sorry, just couldn't resist.
There are fewer illiterates than people who can't read.
why they would want to fingerprint those who are leaving, unless they eventually plan to fingerprint those who are arriving as well.
As someone who occasionally visits your country (with a New Zealand passport and valid work visa), I can tell you that all non-US citizens are already subject to this indignity, for no better reasons than you will be. It's unfortunately just the next step (I've never been fingerprinted going into any other country, or any other time at all for that matter).
Punching a TSA in the face,
much more satisfying and i get the same treatment,
after all if you treat me like a criminal and take my prints (like i have been booked)
i might as well be one egh ?
So if I have no hands?
I hope this caused some synapses to fire.
They are scanning them just to make sure they aren't shoplifting upon exiting.
...But I have to ask, is it really true that we're the only one to erect barriers to who can leave? North Korea? China? Hello?
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
When you come in to the US, they tell you that you don't have to comply with the checks, but that if you don't you can't enter. So what if you refuse to comply with that one? You can't leave?
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
As a Canadian, I assume that if I don't comply with Homeland Security's request, I would be deported. But how?
Have you tried turning it off and on again?
I would love to see a backlash or movement for when this takes effect to have people install de-fingerprinting kiosks outside the airports... maybe offering a swipe of super glue before entry to the airport. If only a few people do this it wont work so well, but if masses do it...???
from 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
to 45 2F 6E 40 3C DF 10 71 4E 41 DF AA 25 7D 31 3F
You know, I'm a Canadian, and ten years ago, I would have voted to join the US. I felt that Americans recognised the value of their freedoms and that they had, and would fight to keep, a more free society than just about anywhere else on Earth. Today, I won't even travel there. It reminds me of all those B movies just after WW2 "Achtung! Show me your papers". How could y'all have just let this happen ?
Don't they already do this for quite some time? There was a pilot program particularly in Chicago (and some other places) where upon exiting US you needed to head to a special kiosk (US-VISIT was the name, I believe) and scan your passport/visa and fingers.
Though that older system seems to have been discontinued on May 6th 2007, according to http://www.immihelp.com/visas/usvisit.html
"Why do you hate America?"(TM) so much that you want to leave?
Saying who can and can't enter is, well, part of being an nation. I would place it akin to an individual being able to decide who can and can't enter their home. Part of being a sovereign nation is you need to be able to decide who is allowed to come in.
However not being able to leave? Well again I'd say it is like a private individual and while you can tell me I can't come in to your house, once you've let me in you have to let me out when I want to go. Barriers for exit are things that are normally associated with extremely oppressive societies. The USSR had very strict border control and it was more to keep their populace in than to keep foreigners out. Thus I see this as a step down a very bad path.
It also raises some serious legal questions for people like me. I am a citizen of two nations, the US and Canada. I have a right to go to either nation. So is it legal for the US to say "No, you can't go to Canada,"? Who are they to tell me I can't go to my country?
How it feeels.
NO SIG
Brave Homeland Security Officer: Place your thumb here.
Traveler: Ok.
*Presses thumb to scanner*
Brave Homeland Security Officer: Ah-ha! This says that you are in this country illegally! I've got you now!
Traveler/Illegal immigrant: Sooooo... since I'm not allowed to be in this country, do you want me to get on my plane and leave, or what?
Brave Homeland Security Officer: Yes! And, um, never come back! That'll teach you!
Traveler/Illegal immigrant: Yes, this punishment of being delayed from my flight for 30 seconds has surely made me so uncomfortable that I won't ever sneak back into this country. You win.
If a corporation is hurt by a policy, something will be done. If average workers are hurt by a policy, nothing will be done, until the problem can no longer be ignored. It's one of the downplayed societal ills, since illegal immigration has been supported by Republican and Democrat administrations.
Large companies love a huge illegal immigrant population. The state picks up their health and education bills, and the illegal workers accept lower wages that can be used to threaten other workers with.
it will be used in part to crack down on the US population of illegal immigrants."
The only way fingerprinting could possibly aid in tracking illegal immigrants is if it was used to track every single US citizen and legal alien. Then anyone caught on the street without their fingerprints in the system is by definition illegal. And even that is only useful if people are routinely fingerprinted on the street. I'm pretty sure there's a name for that kind of system.
The more likely use, down the road a (very short) way, is to make emigration illegal, or at least restricted. There's a name for places where that happens, too.
Everybody likes to talk about police states in the past tense, or in the abstract. Nobody expects the Spa... the real dictatorships. They aren't created all at once out of the blue, and they're seldom openly announced as such.
Insightful and funny are really the same thing, except one has a punch line.
Time to start taking capecitabine... http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/28/1617225&from=rss
"So what if they want to fingerprint travelers entering the country? I think this is a good idea"
"So what if they want to fingerprint travelers exiting the country? I think this is a good idea"
"So what if they want to fingerprint travelers changing flights at the country? I think this is a good idea"
"So what if they want to fingerprint travelers flying past the country? I think this is a good idea"
"So what if they want to fingerprint drivers? I think this is a good idea"
"So what if they want to fingerprint cyclists? I think this is a good idea"
"So what if they want to fingerprint pedestrians? I think this is a good idea"
"So what if they want to fingerprint everyone? I think this is a good idea"
It's called "unnecessary feature creep". Providing fingerprints at a border helps no more than providing other, non-biometric, information at the border, whether you've just murdered someone or not. Either you're on the database (and thus can be flagged in an instant by having an A.P.B. put out) or you're not. But unnecessary feature creep paves the way to a surveillance society. 50 years ago we didn't even *have* this technology, now it's being made compulsory if you want to fly, drive, cycle, ... and eventually it's just compulsory.
Plus, that data is *personal* under most country's definitions of personal data. In the EU that means it's subject to the Data Protection Act which means I have a legal assurance (whether it's carried out or not is another matter) that the data will be kept private, not be disclosed except for explicit purposes and that only authorised people will see it. The US does not, and never has, provided such guarantees to visitors (even if it intended to break them anyway once they were on paper)
"Please tell me how this is an infringement on your 'rights'?"
I have the right to pass freely through almost every port in the world without undue let or hindrance. The US just removed that. I also have the right to protect my personal information and to refuse to give biometric data if I so wish. That right was just lost. Just because in America you didn't HAVE those rights in the first place, that's no reason to not understand why other people are upset (and we are by definition talking about international travellers here).
"The DHS/ICE already do biometric scanning of all *permanent* residents when they're entering the country, and I mean fingerprinting all the fingers in both of your hands. People with US Passports, by comparison, are waived through, which I think is a incredibly stupid thing."
Yep. Because you've just scanned the fingerprints of someone that, by definition, you have zero record of anywhere else (because they are not a US citizen until that time). Yet you let known criminals walk through because they have a US passport. That's just STUPID. And another nail in the "we need this" coffin. It's an *unnecessary* measure.
"Besides, the EU has been doing this for quite some time. Get over it."
No they haven't. I am an EU citizen and have NEVER provided my fingerprints EVER for ANY purpose in ANY country - I even have a 10 year British passport, a 10-year British driving license (both with EU-certified RFID etc. in them) and never had to provide anything but an authenticated photo and documentation (for the next renewal in a decade's time it might be more tricky to avoid being fingerprinted if people don't stand up to this crap NOW) - and only last year I travelled through 10 countries in the EU within two weeks on a cruise ship. In fact, that's why I'm not flying to the US ever again - that and the "we need the right to copy your laptop data and not tell you what we did with it" - that's a KILLER for me, because it means I would be breaking the law in my own country by disclosing private, personalised business data.
You're throwing a right away every time you say "I don't see a problem with it, so okay". What you should be saying is "I don't see the need. So why should I?". Whethe
So followers of The Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galaxy shouldn't travel out of the country? Especially May 25th! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towel_Day
copy your fingerprints and then wake you up and ask you, "What is the last thing you remember?"
Maybe all this fingerprinting is to report to Core Control which humans are trying to reach the Mothership?
But, i did not read much that explicitly said that US CITIZENS will be scanned. Sure US-VISIT and biometric passports IMPLY that it will be US citizens, but this has got to be a real smokescreen.
Seriously, though, it is probably a way to index ALL the FUTURE foreign operatives, particularly those who are sent here as students by their respective governments, so the US can either keep tabs on foreign operatives who are rising stars, or to blackmail those whom the US considers fodder or disposable in the brinkmaship the governments play. Really, it is often difficult to trick an astute spy into giving up fingerprints, saliva samples and so on in a restaurant (except the careless ones who mix and mingle in DC and touch dinnerware that is carefully taken to the "kitchen" for scanning/imaging/databasing), compared to just going directly after ALL foreigners who come here for months on end and invariably will slip because it's hard for YOUNG trainees to be perfect ALL the time.
Just my two cents...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Step 1: Fringerprint people leaving country
Step 2: ???????
Step 3: Profit
Maybe just don't fly from those airports? Either way it just makes it more off putting for backpackers to go to the states.
Tourism Fail?
My internetting is no good.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html
To leave the country, you have to pay taxes for all of your assets, and renounce your US citizenship if you'd like to stop paying the IRS.
I'm actually in favor of regulations against capital flight, but this is probably going a little too far...
In the early years of The War on Terror, the American city of Cincinnati attracts people from all over the United States. Many are transients trying to get out on the next plane to Canada or even Europe, a few are just trying to make a buck...Two DHS couriers have been killed and the letters of transit they were carrying have gone missing. These letters are blank and represent freedom for two, all the action centers around a cafe ....
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
we hated the USSR out of jealously. And now look at how swiftly we race to embrace statism.
Quack, quack.
They will partially be used to control illegal immigration? What else will they "partially" be used for?
Apparently our elected officials don't use the internet, listen to the news, or GASP, even know how to read. Certainly these continued moves towards a police state can't be tolerated by our democratic overlords. Obama and his cabinet won't allow this to happen will they?
What, then, if you refuse to be fingerprinted? Do they prevent you from leaving the country? Would this not be illegal detention? Must refusal to provide fingerprints be criminalized for this to work?
This is timely news! Anyone who doesn't want to be fingerprinted can start taking cancer medication!
You're telling me that you need to fingerprint the man handing you his passport to verify his ID?
Sure, passports can be forged, so can fingerprints though. In fact, it's likely easier to forge prints than passports.
He abdicated in favor of Bush.
>>I might be less critical of such actions if it weren't for the fact that "security" isn't being improved or actually even being addressed.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Of course, this was also said by a major figure of what we would call, today, an insurgent force, fighting against the established government of the country. He spent much of that war in another country, raising funds to support what those who claimed they had a legitimate government considered to be a terrorist action. By recent standards, for the funding part alone, two guys were sentenced to 65 years, just this week.
His name was Benjamin Franklin.
Solution: "- Problem, where are you ?"
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
My first thought was that this is incredibly stupid. This wouldn't do ANYTHING for security.
My second thought was what if I say No. Will they block me from exiting the country?
My third thought was that if they did block me from exiting that it would be exactly like Communism in Old Russia. I can't imagine the border patrol being happy about being called communists.
That said, when does this take effect? I'll try to cross the border just to see what happens if I say no to the fingerprinting. I will have done nothing wrong in trying to cross the border so i don't see how they could demand fingerprints. I'll report back to slashdot what happens.
So, I can come in there ILLEGALLY and move all over EU and not have a SINGLE ISSUE WITH JOBS or housing? From what I head from some Italians and some illegal Libyans who were in Germany, they said that it was DIFFICULT to find jobs or housing. Had to have paperwork and A NATIONAL ID, which apparently they bought (not legally). Or were they liars?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
statist assholes like you are the reason we have a DHS in the first place. people with warrants out aren't going to use normal channels anyway. they'll find another way out. the only thing this does is punish the law abiding citizen
But if you take that stuff and lose your fingerprints, you won't be able to prove you're a citizen when you try to reenter the U.S. Furthermore, as an illegal alien with no fingerprints, it will be assumed that you filed them off at terrorist training camp (the one with the monkey bars that all the terrorists swing from). They'll detain you for 4 hours.
I would recommend photocopying your fingerprints before taking that drug, so that later on you can show them to DHS and have them scan the photocopy.
Not going to fingerprint me flying from the airport in my own plane. Ever ask why all these laws don't affect people with money? Enjoy.
The Department of Homeland Stupidity at it's finest. Why not just tattoo and incinerate them to make sure they don't come back.
Hope is the currency of fools
The probability of the collected information being misused is higher than the probability that I will commit a crime.
It's not a matter of xenophobia. For most people anyway. Illegal immigration is a very real social and economic problem.
And how does fingerprinting people who are eaving solve it? What happens if someone refuses to allow themselves to be scanned then? Will they be refused permission to leave? If so the US government is going to look like a real idiot since they will be refusing illegal immigrants permission to leave since I doubt many of them will want to submit to a fingerprint scan.
Right, exactly, because obviously it takes less than four months to check what every single part of every single department of the U.S. government is doing, and either approve it or stop it.
Seriously, does every day in the White House start with a nap?
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Nice. In under 10 years, we're all criminals.
And note the source of the information comes from Australia, when the source of the problem is in the United States.
I know what you mean.
I'd really like to visit the US to go on holiday.
But I'm not prepared to leave my fingerprints for that.
The US is missing out on money that they could earn from tourists.
Luckily I have a choice right now not to go to the US. :(
I dread the moment when it becomes a necessity for work
This has got to be a joke
Homeland security does love a good laugh.
Actually, this is a devious plot on their part.
1. Introduce ridiculously intrusive (yet this side of believable) plan which will do nothing but annoy people, as a pilot program
2. Wait until enough people are annoyed at it or some one in government starts talking about cutting spending on security and doesn't immediately get thrown out of office by voters
3. Announce you've decided not to do it based on feedback/because you don't have enough money to keep america safe
4. ???
5. PROFIT!
Detroit and Atlanta are both Delta hubs. So you can avoid this "pilot" by choosing a different airline to leave the US ... at least until the "pilot" expands.
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
These following storys all say "FOREIGNERS" and do not say US Citizens will be fingerprinted. Perhaps this was a mistake in the article submitted:
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0509/0502809cdpm3.htm
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-05-27-voa55.cfm
http://www.azstarnet.com/news/294712
http://fcw.com/articles/2009/05/27/web-us-visit-pilots.aspx
They fingerprint you even if you're travelling via, and not visiting, the country. Eg. Ireland to Australia.
So much for the plane side of the gates at the airport still being an "International Zone".
I for one would prefer some biometric form of ID so I don't have to worry about forgetting my passport at home while I'm running late to catch a flight.
I think it would help in scenarios where you're banned from flights because your name matches someone else on the watch list.
If you don't agree with the policy of deporting illegal immigrants, change the policy but don't change the enforcement of it. Not enforcing a law only sends the message that laws don't apply in general
I would feel deeply violated to have my finger prints on record by any government, and will not under any circumstances cross a border at a location that implements such a policy as long as other entrances exist without it. If that means flying out of my way, so be it...but this is a ridiculous invasion of privacy in my book.
Good. They can scan my middle finger when I leave the US for good.
Like most of the people posting here, I had the immediate knee-jerk reaction to this story of "OMFG, they is intruding on mine privacy!" However, after thinking about it for a few minutes, I realized this could be nothing more than an attempt to insure the person who comes back from overseas is the same person who left. I can think of many situations where a valid US passport might be useful to someone wanting to enter this country covertly, and I'm sure there is a thriving black market in such documents. This could be nothing more than an extra layer of verification. Go ahead, let the flaming begin. I'm wearing my Nomex moisturizer.
If the federal government has had time to push the analog television deadline back I think they have had more than enough time to look this over as well. But then again, they did vote in a bill that no one had time to read over properly and even it's own *cough* author didn't realize certain things were written into it...
Yeah, I guess we can let this slide too. After all, if the current administration doesn't even realize what it's signing into law how can we expect them to understand what the last administration did?
The US is going to be the place NOT to be in a few years. Hyper inflation and 60% income tax rates are being talked about on MSNBC tonight. The US will have to make people think twice before a mass exodus to new lands because of the ensuing drop in GDP, which will leave America without an economy...
Even if they start with foreigners today, it'll spread to citizens in 10 years.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
The actual press release issued by DHS makes no mention of fingerprinting US citizens upon departure:
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS202520+28-May-2009+PRN20090528
Only non-US citizens are to be fingerprinted as of today.
TFA mentions "a plan" by the Bush administration to fingerprint US citizens as well, but it's not being implemented.
(Yet.)
Next time I leave the US I won't be coming back..so they can scan whatever they like. I've just about had enough of the American police state and will be leaving the country for good.
An identical system was introduced about 5 years ago for anyone visiting the US on a non-resident visa. Incidentally, that test program was also rolled out first in Detroit and Atlanta. Before leaving the country you had to scan your passport and give your fingerprint at an automated US-VISIT station. You then received a 2D barcode which was needed to board the plane. After less than a year the system was abandoned. That was a period where they introduced a new stupid system every month...
They never removed the 10 or 15 stations in the Detroit McNamara terminal (they are next to the big jumpy fountain), so they will probably just start using them again. But now for everyone :-)
I've run several small companies, grossing from 500k to 6 million. I know about the red tape. I've also worked in larger corporations, and I know about their internal red tape.
What I've come to realize is that large corporations are inherently tyrannical. Further down another poster makes a salient point about China - it's very business friendly because it totally empathizes with the way they operate. Orders come from above and are not to be questioned. Conformity to this tyranny is a prerequisite to be invited to the party, and if you have a problem with the top rung management, good luck getting an audience with them.
Conversely, small businesses like the ones I prefer are far more democratic. The lowest paid employee often has direct contact with the owner. This makes his impact radically different than serving the function of something that has not yet been automated or outsourced. He has room for creativity, room to make a difference in how the business is run. He is a person instead of a process.
Your sig asks how the powerful became powerful in our country. Since we have moved so far away from the democratic ideal, of the rule of law and men being equals in front of it, to celebrating personalities and the new aristocracy of corporate power, the answer is that money has become more important than values. Those who are powerful in today's America accept that early, and exploit as many people as they can to achieve their wealth. The wealthy pass on the spoils of their exploits to their children, who dutifully try to replicate what their ancestors accomplished.
The problem with this system is that it is totally against free market principles. There is no merit or true value from making money from money. That's why usury laws are so important, and also why they vanished from our country early in the 20th century. That's why taxes were always raised when we went to war, to make sure the powerful weren't so quick to send our children off to die. When money is the only vote, what kind of society do you think you will end up with? Does Bill Gates or Steve Jobs really deserve billions of votes compared to the tens of thousands given to a school teacher? A person given these parameters should not be surprised at what the result is - a society that worships wealth and power, and engages in destroying the only check to that power, which is a democratic government.
But the cruellest of our revenue laws, I will venture to affirm, are mild and gentle in comparison of some of those which the clamour of our merchants and manufacturers has extorted from the legislature for the support of their own absurd and oppressive monopolies. Like the laws of Draco, these laws may be said to be all written in blood.
--Adam Smith
How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?
--Major General Butler, USMC Retired
"War is a Racket"
I mean, after all, we know that no real American would ever want to leave the country!
Similar to the upcoming US election results
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1227963&cid=27894137 It's easy to understand - it's this way because someone profits from it...
Ask Me About... The 80's!
TFA seems to be wrong about this including US citizens. While I think fingerprinting anyone, citizen or not, coming into the country isn't something we should be doing, and certainly not when exiting, the bit about fingerprinting exiting US citizens is found nowhere other than in the article from IT News Australia. The actual DHS press release is very specific that this is a planned extension to US-VISIT and, as such, only applies to non-US-citizens:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=AUSASAIR.story&STORY=/www/story/05-28-2009/0005034173&EDATE=THU+May+28+2009,+01:22+PM
Several additional articles all clearly indicating that this applies only to non-citizens:
http://www.fcw.com/Articles/2009/05/27/Web-US-VISIT-pilots.aspx
http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20090528_7835.php?oref=rss
"Wherever you go, there you are."
But it still makes sense. A democracy will not be as efficient as a dictatorship in some cases, but it is still better if you believe in certain principles. Similarly, local and democratically controlled resources will not be efficient as a corporation in some cases, but it is still better if you believe in certain principles.
And in our society, where dollars are more important than votes, those with the most dollars have their own needs "most peculiarly attended to" in the words of Adam Smith. If immigration were bad for big business, they would close the border. Just as if the free market were good for big business, they wouldn't demand trade protections while trying to deny the same rights to their foreign competitors.
The simple answer to ensuring the returning person is not an imposter is simply encoding the fingerprint into the passport book or card.
another reason why i'll never cross the border from canada again. canada is a pretty harsh police state, but not nearly as bad as the usa (or britain, it's 1984 there from now on) I used to go down to Bellingham, WA for cheap goods, but I don't think I'm welcome there anymore. I always feel like I'm in danger when I cross the border, like some crackhead is going to shoot me with a handgun. Plus they'd send me to jail for all the BC Bud I smoke heh ;) Nobody I know could take their car across the border without it getting seized.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12914564/ re Iceland gene pool less heterogenous than other European populations.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/9/14/ re status of Ashkenazi Jews as genetic isolates.
the US run really weird borders - getting in they treat you like utter crap, when you leave they do nothing, don't check or stamp your passport, there's not even a guy at a desk when you leave you just wander onto the plane, they depend on the airline getting it right. Anywhere else in the world they check your passport on the way in and the way out.
I visit the US on business a few times a year - I depend on being able to come and go, but if the airline screws up I may find myself detained at the border for overstaying my previous trip next time I show up, I have no way of knowing if they've gotten it right - and there are horror stories from those for whom the record keeping was screwed up - I'm much rather have that exit stamp in my passport
same as the old boss.
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better." - Unknown
Does this mean that can seize my laptop indefinitely- like they do when you enter?
Did anyone see the Editor's note? Should probably update the Post.
Editors Note - This story originally contained a representation that the biometrics trial in Atlanta and Detroit included the fingerprint scanning of US citizens. This has since been proved to be incorrect and the story has been modified - only non-US citizens will be expected to provide a biometric record.
It's time for me to put sarcasm aside and get serious here. Although I love to bitch about eroding civil liberties in the USA, we still have the basic freedoms that many other countries don't have: no national ID card, freedom of internal movement at will, and the freedom to leave the country at will. No internal passports here.
Take a look at the mess our Customs has made out of entering the USA. They steal laptop computers from people entering the country. A Canadian has been permanently banned from the USA because one Customs agent Googled him and found his online confession about past illicit drug use.
We take for granted, however, our right to leave at will. Think of it as the ultimate foot voting: if you don't like the country, you're free to leave, and it's your job to find a country willing to take you in. Unlike North Korea, you're not stuck here.
This fingerprinting thing is an extremely scary precedent. We all know about the no-fly list. What's next? A no-leave list?
It seems to me that America is always trying to solve all problems with technology rather than simply learning to avoid the problems in the first place. The problem with technology is that it will always be too easy to circumvent - it is never going to be entirely watertight.
Of course that is not always a problem, if what you are trying to achieve is simply to reduce the size of a problem; but since we are talking Homeland Security, ie trying to stop terrorism, how likely is that to be entirely successful? To paraphrase Terry Pratchett - the terrorists only need to lucky once, but America needs to be lucky every time.
What makes it seem even more futile is that there is a much cheaper and more effective alternative: why not try to be more of a friend to those in need? The biggest help terrorists have is that they can point their finger at America and say "The Big Satan".
The original article was incorrect when they said that US citizens are to be included in this program. They have since corrected their mistake:
"Editors Note - This story originally contained a representation that the biometrics trial in Atlanta and Detroit included the fingerprint scanning of US citizens. This has since been proved to be incorrect and the story has been modified - only non-US citizens will be expected to provide a biometric record."
and "free" education - in exchange for control of your health record and your school curriculum.
From the linked article: "Editors Note - This story originally contained a representation that the biometrics trial in Atlanta and Detroit included the fingerprint scanning of US citizens. This has since been proved to be incorrect and the story has been modified - only non-US citizens will be expected to provide a biometric record."
This brings up an interesting point, does anyone know any good ways to burn your fingerprints off? From the sources I can see on google, physical burning (with an iron etc) fails, and they grow back pretty fast, but more chemical methods, like lye or alcohol etc are pretty effective at permanently removing, or at least obscuring your prints.
Brave Homeland Security Officer: Place your thumb here.
Traveler: Ok.
*Presses thumb to scanner*
Brave Homeland Security Officer: Ah-ha! This says that you are in this country illegally! I've got you now!
Traveler/Illegal immigrant: Sooooo... since I'm not allowed to be in this country, do you want me to get on my plane and leave, or what?
Brave Homeland Security Officer: Yes! And, um, never come back! That'll teach you!
Traveler/Illegal immigrant: Yes, this punishment of being delayed from my flight for 30 seconds has surely made me so uncomfortable that I won't ever sneak back into this country. You win.
It's more than a 30 second delay. Make note that BHSO above didn't stamp TI's hand so he won't be able to get back in.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
This is plusgood doublethink, it's Ingsoc slowly revealing itself.
The summary description on ./ is wrong. If one does RFA all the way to the end, one will see the following:
Editors Note - This story originally contained a representation that the biometrics trial in Atlanta and Detroit included the fingerprint scanning of US citizens. This has since been proved to be incorrect and the story has been modified - only non-US citizens will be expected to provide a biometric record.
As a US citizen living in France, and often travelling through Detroit and Atlanta to get to/from Chicago, I'm relieved that I won't be delayed by this hassle. As a human being, I don't agree with the idea of requiring visiters to submit their fingerprints to the the US government - I feel it is infringing on one's human rights and/or privacy, and feel ashamed when I see fellow travellers submitting to this procedure upon entry into the US - but it's too early in the morning for me to formulate a clear and logical argument against the requirement...
It really is to early. The first two sentences should be:
"The summary description on /. is wrong. If one does RTFA all the way to the end, one will see the following:....
I'm going to have my coffee now...
"too" early. not to. I'll. stop. posting. now.
Are they trying to deter visitors with $$ from visiting?
My SO is 30 next year and I thought that now Bush has gone etc, I could lift my own personal no visit status of the US. Do it big, splurge lots of cash on casinos, shopping, nice hotels etc
Now there is NO chance I am coming. Why should I give them my fingerprints when I am leaving the place FFS. I wouldn't ne a troublemaker, but its a point of principle. What business does the US gvt have with my foreign fingerprints ? None that is reasonable!
So in real terms (and I am sure any other geeks will feel similar) I am not visiting your ever increasing police state! This means that they won't get our tourism $ and we will just party somewhere else instead and the economys that would have benefited in a time of need, don't.
Unfortunatly, the morons that do disneyland won't care. So the potential effect is minimal, but still noticable.
http://www.writeitfor.us - Writing IT for the IT generation.
Anyone read the article, and editors note?? "Editors Note - This story originally contained a representation that the biometrics trial in Atlanta and Detroit included the fingerprint scanning of US citizens. This has since been proved to be incorrect and the story has been modified - only non-US citizens will be expected to provide a biometric record."
All this talk about keeping people in, police states, and how much freedom we are losing in the USA...
It doesn't make sense people. More specifically, it has nothing to do with what TFA is about.
Not all illegal immigrants swim through a sewer drain to get here. Some people pay other people to get them here, by providing identities and getting them here by any means. These identities are usually stolen or completely fabricated.
That's all they want to prevent. That's the entire purpose of this system. Yes, they will take your fingerprint. So does your bank. And for the same reason, to make sure it's you.
Most of you read the headline, saw that this plan was hatched under Bush and starting going Olbermann on way too many tangents. It's far simpler than that, really.
I am waiting for them to seize and "scan" ships and aircraft passing by near their shores...
Fingerprinting is traditionally something reserved for criminals and people arrested on genuine suspicion of actual offences. If the state starts fingerprinting other categories of people, they'll resent being classed with crimmos. I know I certainly would.
seems that hollywood wants to make sure your not leaving with something.....
I recently went through LA from London to New Zealand. We were pulled out of the place, herded through security where we had all fingerprints taken along with a photo of our face. Then shoved back into a waiting room (no shops) for 1.5 hours while we waited for the plane to be ready.
Keep in mind that we were just passing through (we didn't even change planes, it was the same flight), we weren't entering OR leaving the country!
At least US citizens can protest about this, I never got the choice.
The simple answer to ensuring the returning person is not an imposter is simply encoding the fingerprint into the passport book or card.
Passports already have photographs as well as other identifying information. It would be no more difficult for a good forger to change the stored fingerprint than it would be to change the photo, so there has to be something outside the passport itself that can be used for verification. Of course, since all this will have to be stored electronically, it's only a matter of time, money and resources until bad guys gain access to the database and change stuff around at will, so we'll eventually be back at the same problem (how to make sure the returning person is the same as the person who left).
Added to the "Never come back" - they would probably say that you are banned from entering the United States for 10 consecutive years ...
This violates the 4th amendment of the constitution.
This is an unreasonable search. When you refuse, they will help you with an unreasonable seizure.
They have absolutely no probable cause. It's a wide dragnet that is illegal and unconstitutional.
They're using their grammar skills there.
Ben Franklin was part of a terrorist organization? Gee, not that I'm aware of. I would have said they were more like a guerilla organization. Or was your use of that particular word just flame bait?
The article now contains this note:
"Editors Note - This story originally contained a representation that the biometrics trial in Atlanta and Detroit included the fingerprint scanning of US citizens. This has since been proved to be incorrect and the story has been modified - only non-US citizens will be expected to provide a biometric record."
That makes a bit more sense, since they were already fingerprinting non-U.S. citizens inbound.
"So what if they want to fingerprint travelers entering the country? I think this is a good idea" "So what if they want to fingerprint travelers exiting the country? I think this is a good idea" "So what if they want to fingerprint travelers changing flights at the country? I think this is a good idea" "So what if they want to fingerprint travelers flying past the country? I think this is a good idea" "So what if they want to fingerprint drivers? I think this is a good idea" "So what if they want to fingerprint cyclists? I think this is a good idea" "So what if they want to fingerprint pedestrians? I think this is a good idea" "So what if they want to fingerprint everyone? I think this is a good idea"
The UK want to introduce ID cards - first they were going to be optional, then you would have to pay for them, then they would have fingerprint data, then they were remotely-readable, then they were going to be used on immigrants, then they were going to be used for all airport workers, etc.etc.etc. Feature creep. Watch out for it. That's where 1984 is gonna come from.
Actually, I think countrywide IDs are a good thing, in my country we have one, with fingerprints and everything, and it's far safer to purchase anything with a credit card, etc.
It's used for the same things you stupidly use the SSN and driver's license for - you still need some kind of ID for your stuff, why not make a centralised one?. Make it optional if you're worried about privacy (but, good luck conducting business without it)
The fingerprinting at airports and stuff, however, is more an annoyance than help.
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
No surprise! Bush starded it - and Obama is continuing it. New boss same as the old boss. Both are FACISTS NAZI's!! They both should be put on trial for TREASDON against the U.S..
Police State Study Ranks U.S. As 6th Worst In The World
Police State Study Ranks U.S. As 6th Worst In The World
The Truth is a Virus!!!
Well citizen, let's see... I see here you're a member of the National Guard on callup. I'm afraid you can't leave the country without an exit visa signed by the Secretary of the Army. Please return to your base for a free trip to a different foreign country.
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
An iron curtain has descended across the continent.
Come on people. Atleast pretend to read the article. If you did, you would have seen that it clearly states that this is for US-VISIT program which is NOT for U.S. Citizens, but only for visitors. Will it be applied to the U.S. Citizens in the future? Maybe, or maybe not. Just don't try to deceive people my stating that is not accurate.
When driving I frequently notice that considerably more than half the drivers are breaking the law by speeding, not using signals properly, not changing lanes properly, etc. Add in jaywalking, littering, etc, and a staggering number of Americans are criminals. Where is the hue and cry over all these criminals? When will THAT wall be built? Why aren't the Minutemen and Sheriff Joe clamoring for these people to be arrested and/or deported? THEY'RE BREAKING THE LAW!!!!!!
Oh wait, that's BS, and we know that Americans are not especially committed to scrupulous adherence to the law. A huge number of Americans break the law every day without any conservative going on any talk show demanding that something be done. So no, it's not just a conscientious committment to following the letter of the law. There is a bit more involved here, and everyone knows it.
"The only thing we have to fear is... fear itself!"
This is so obviously a play for police power. I would wager a guess that many illegal immigrants do not have their finger prints in the system... Where would they be scanned? In the desert? How is making a catalog of all people leaving the country going to help?
Consider, every time I leave the country on a commercial airplane, my passport is checked. Do illegal immigrants have US Passports? No - they would be caught way before a need for a finger print scan. This just doesn't make sense.
My finger prints have NEVER been taken. I have made sure of that. So - does that make me an illegal immigrant? No - just suspicious of too much government.
Sigh - police state here we come.
I'm NEVER going to get any biometric or RF enabled ID, and I'm sure as hell not going to allow them to fingerprint me at the border.
Guess I'll be staying home until we decide it's time to restore our civil liberties. No more hockey games or concerts at The Bell Center, and missing The Montreal Film Festival is totally going to suck.
Oh well, anything for the illusion of a little temporary safety.
"in my country we have one, with fingerprints and everything, and it's far safer to purchase anything with a credit card, etc."
A misconception. How is it *safer* to buy something using a fingerprint (whether that's used directly or via some sort of remote verification because of some card you hold with one on it)? To be of *any* practical use day-to-day you would need a fingerprint *reader* on every machine that could possibly be used to sell you things. And that means that the hardware is common, and thus usually very easily hacked (fake, hacked and compromised Chip&PIN terminals were doing the rounds within months of its release, if not before, in the UK). Let's not even get into how easy it is to fake a fingerprint *unnoticeably* in front of the casual user. And guess where I can get a copy of your fingerprint? Anywhere you touch, ever, in your entire life. Like those millions of payment machines, posssibly? So I can make a fake ID with your fingerprint, or fake your fingerprint from your ID. It really is a pathetic biometric. I wouldn't trust it to open my garage door, let alone my bank account.
That card you carry, with fingerprint data, is NO better than any other card you carry. I agree wholeheartedly that they should be centralised to be effective (it helps catch fraudsters to do that) but fingerprinting DOES NOT HELP, especially not with the current state of the technology.
The trouble is that a centralised repository of such information weakens EVERY link - it becomes MUCH easier to fake an identity in its entirety from the inside of the organisations controlling it, it becomes easier to attack, it standardises on a format which aids forgeries (especially if that standard is international - make a fake passport for some horrible third-world country where nobody has the capability to even check it's genuine and you can roam internationally on a fake ID).
As a little factette - government statistics revealed last year that there are over 80m unique, official "identifications" (National Insurance numbers, driving licences, passports, etc. issued directly by the proper authorities, NOT fakes) in the UK, and a confirmed population including immigrants, illegal or otherwise, of only 60m; thus every fourth ID that exists is fake, but has official documents to proof their identity and an entry on the database. Large criminals are often caught with dozens, if not hundreds, of officially-supplied ID's in false names. Do you think that comes about through making an accident when filling in a form, or by supplying only actual, genuine documents to obtain them?
My daughter was born not too long ago. The *entire* proof of her existence was a hospital record and a birth certificate - none of which could record her blood group or any other identifying details without my permission. She was never required to be subjected to ANY tests (DNA, blood, fingerprint, etc.). She never left my or my wife's sight during all her time in hospital, for even a fraction of a second. My wife was quite within my rights to remove her from hospital after signing only the birth certificate if she wanted. It contains a name that we gave her, a data and time, an official-looking stamp and a serial number (presumably unique). Somewhere, there is a copy of that information in her medical records and maybe a database.
That's the ONLY reliable evidence that my daughter exists - because even if I didn't sign it, the hospital would file a missing person's report for her the second she left the hospital. She hasn't needed fingerprints, or DNA tests or photographs to prove who she is, and she won't do even when she's 18 (with any luck). My wife and I are both eligible for government tax breaks because she exists. We get government-approved childcare. She gets a guaranteed school place. My wife gets free healthcare until she's a year old. We get *actual cash* from the Government every month because she exists. She even has a bank account (a Child Trust Fund). All on the basis that there's
So? There's no "line" for your average slashdotter to wait in to get farked. The only legal option for a would be basement-dweller from Slashdot is to just stay in their poor, dark basement and forget about enjoying the sweet, sweet bliss.
That's still no excuse for turning up at a local frat party at 3am and engaging in non-consensual sex with a passed-out co-ed.
If you don't meet the standards of the gate-keeper to a better life, work to improve yourself until you do meet those standards and then you'll be welcomed in. But never pretend its OK to force yourself on someone just because they won't willingly have you.
I have a USA passport, I am a USA citizen. If I show proof of those 2 things, I should not have to do anything to provide further proof. Show my passport and move on.
If the USA system is so ill equiped to protect its passport, then design a new one that illegals can not duplicate. Do not hold me, a law biding citizen who holds the documents the USA government tells me to hold so that I can move freely and with-in my privacy to move country to country.
USA: Stop becoming a police state.
One problem they are trying to address is a US citizen mailing their passport to an illegal friend, who then uses it to enter the US. In that regard, it does make sense to check credentials as people leave. If the passport never officially left, it should not be allowed in without some scrutiny.
The picture on the Passport is not a good identifier as peoples look can change. Another non-changeable identifying mark like fingerprints is desirable. Fingerprints are much easier to automatically identify too - just stick your finger on the button.
Passports do store the picture electronically now, with a digital signature. Just add the fingerprint. Military CAC cards already do this.
According to the correction at the bottom of the article, only non-U.S.-citizens will be scanned wile leaving Detroit or Atlanta during the trial.
"...until we decide it's time to restore our civil liberties."
I hate to break it to you, but that's not how it works. You can only TAKE BACK your civil liberties through clear and decisive action. If you want 'em, be prepared to get out there and fight tooth and nail, because the groups in power don't want you to have them.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Non-American here...
First question - what happens if you refuse? Will they not let you out of the country?
My thought was, just one more reason for me not to visit the US. Why put myself through the hassle and potential risk?
First off most people in the United States do not have their fingerprints on file anywhere. So I think this is just a very sneaky way (since airports already have security measures) to create a record of even more peoples fingerprints. The Problem I have is not that I have is when people will start to be wrongly accused because now their prints are being found at crime scenes of people they know. For example lets say a friend of mines' house was broken into and now because my prints are now in a file somewhere, I get wrongly accused. Or even worse I was working at a Lowe's and was the cashier for someone who purchased fertilizer or other materials for a bomb ; if my prints matched I'm suddenly under suspicion. Sure my alibi (if in fact I have one and was not at home by myself posting comments on some website) would check out but now I'm dragged into a mess I have no buisiness being in. So I'm of the opinion this is just another step towards George Orwell's 1984.
That would be a violation of my rights as a Canadan citizen. I will not be entering the US if they're going to fingerprint me and I am sure as hell not letting them fingerprint me on my way out (what are they going to do, not let me out of the country, fine - it worked out rather well for Tom Hanks if I recall correctly). I will take my skillset and my vacation money to a country that values my rights and freedoms, thank you very much. Land of the free, yeah right.
Fixed it.
This is dumb... illegal aliens DO NOT travel abroad... duh!
I went to russia from the EU last year. It works like this: you pay a company to arrange the visum for you. This costs about 60 euro and takes 2 weeks. In the plane before landing you get a small form in which you fill in your name and in some cases the address where you will be staying, twice. You give this form at the border, they keep half of it, you have to give the other half when you go out. That's all there is to it, and it's not like Russia has different problems with terrorism than the US.
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
One thing that bugs me is the "threat level" may go up to Red but never goes down below yellow
So here is my bet we will never see green until a third party president is in office.
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Since I'm a US citizen, they can't keep me out. While you don't have things like a right to privacy at the border, meaning they can search you and your belongings, as a citizen they can't keep you out of your country. They can't say "Nope, you have to go back home," since you ARE going back home.
I spent just about $40,000 the last time I was in the US (In restaurants, hotels and cars and air fares mostly). I was there for less than 4 months. I've not been back since you started treating me like a criminal. I first arrived November 2001. I had less hassle then than now, and that was 2 months after 9/11.
The entry side of this program has been running for years. The exist side was piloted and canceled once before already. This applies only to non US citizens. The purpose of the exit system is to confirm a visa holder adhered to the period the visa was issued for; and that the person who leaves is the same one who entered. The usefulness of this is another issue entirely.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Visit
http://fcw.com/articles/2007/10/18/dhs-to-issue-plan-for-usvisit-exit-program-by-january.aspx
Nudie scanners:
* Albuquerque International Sunport Airport
* Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport
* Baltimore/Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport
* Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport
* Denver International Airport
* Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport
* Detroit Metro Airport
* Indianapolis International Airport
* Jacksonville International Airport
* McCarran International Airport
* Los Angeles International Airport
* Miami International Airport
* Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport
* Raleigh-Durham International Airport
* Richmond International Airport
* San Francisco International Airport
* Salt Lake City International Airport
* Tampa International Airport
* Tulsa International Airport
Now we have two reasons to avoid Detroit and Atlanta.
huh? so the epidemic of people pretending to leave the country on commercial flights by booking flights and sending doppelgangers in their place is finally over! rejoice Americans! we are all now super safe!
It is so ironic you used the term "epidemic" because we have a real epidemic* here (the new H1N1 flu), and the US did practically nothing to stop to flow of H1N1 carriers spreading the flu to other countries, not even a kindly suggestion to citizens to avoid travel when sick. Now over ~80% of the new H1N1 cases caught in Asia comes from the US.
Yet OTOH the US govt find the time and money to screen people to "crack down illegal immigrants". Goes to show you what kind of priority the US govt has on public control vs public health.
* - while the US didn't think much of it, you have remember not every country is as rich as the US, their medical system cannot safely handle the additional load of a new flu pandemic.
I think we've had v2.0 in beta for 8 years...
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
Oh, Are you the kid I molested last friday under the bridge of 4th and 5th ave?
My original comment got marked down as "overrated" and "troll"... despite the fact that there are 2 pages of discussion related to it.
Come on, guys! Get with the program.
In which sense?
The social problem is created by artificially driving underground a group of people that would otherwise make a positive contribution to the local economy.
If there are immigrants it is because there are jobs, they are filling an economic vacuum that people settle d earlier don't want to fill.
The problem is not immigration, the problem are the xenophobic, protectionist attitudes of the population established earlier (descendants of immigrants for the most part) that go easy talking about freedom but are more precious when it comes to probe their "convictions" when it comes to real actions.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
So try again, but a bit harder.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I took the tube to my office in London the day after the bombings here.
I used my brain and the conclusion was clear: the danger in average was pretty minimal.
People not using their brains are opening the doors to all the fear mongers that are eroding civil liberties in developed countries.
What is the point of the brave stand so many people did against the dark forces of Fascism if a handful of derided individuals has the power to subvert all what is supposed to be precious to people that claim to love freedom and the rule of law?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I could save some money every time I go to Mexico by flying with an US airline from Europe.
I will not do so until the immigration policies in the US return to pre 9-11 levels of sanity (which were bad enough mind you, but not unbearably authoritarian like they are now).
As long as these idiotic policies continue European (and Canadian!) airlines will continue to have my business...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
My Mexican passport has my photograph printed in the paper, so there is no way to replace it , like it was theoretically possible with older passports.
So they look at me, check the picture and let me in if I am the guy in the picture. Passports come with codes and an electronic tag that should ensure it is legit (as we know they are using the wrong technology, but that is the problem with authoritarian people, you can't trust them to run anything efficiently).
So which problem exactly they are trying to solve?
I'll tell you which one: they try to keep their jobs (Homeland Security) byt busying themselves doing something, anything, the more authoritarian the better.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.