Saddam is just another western flunkie that stopped playing along (same as Bin Laden)... at least now there's no denying of the fact that Iraq is US controlled.
You haven't learned yet? Throw Microsoft products in the trash. *n[ui]x vulnerabilities never require a reboot except in the rare event of a kernel level exploit. Your clients will thank you for switching.
Re:Hopefully this fulfills the Exchange Need
on
Kroupware Komplete
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· Score: 1
It seems that/. folk are constantly talking about the need for a FOSS collaboration thingy, and this seems like it should be it. So, for all you folks who are always writing in telling how "Exchange is so great...blah", it seems like this is the answer.
Why in [gG]od's name is this post marked as insightful??? You state nothing other than the bloody obvious!
Also, what the hell is FOSS? I've heard of GNU, free software, OSS, BSD... I've even heard of FLOSS but never FOSS! I wish people would quit with the bloody acronyms and just say free software (or OSS if you really prefer).
We have a small Linux support company, all told we've installed/maintain on the order of a few hundred Linux machines. We faced this exact decision in the past months.
We've decided to use Debian as our default distribution from now on. When we tell our customers they really don't care, we explain our reasons and they're more than happy to switch for the same reasons that we are:
I host my email on a DSL ISP in canada and they blocked outgoing SMTP long ago. It's easy to work around though just relay all email from your server through the ISP's SMTP server.
This is a good thing because it makes it much easier for AOL to catch spammers.
fact that I lose GDM. That really stinks. If someone has a decent replacement for GDM, I'd love to hear about it.
Have you tried wdm? I haven't used GDM (assuming it's a login manager but I really like wdm. At least in Debian it gives me the ability to select window manager and to reboot from the login screen.
Bullshit. I, too, disagree with the moderation. It IS a pain in the ass to upgrade Debian from glib 2.0 to 2.1. I guess we dare not speak the truth.
I basically disagree with moderation and don't use it. Turn it off if you don't like the way it is working.
As for Debian's libc6 upgrade what is difficult? I was testing ext3 journalling, which required ext2fsck >= 1.16. Being too lazy to compile, and not wanting to override my Debian installation, I just changed my/etc/apt/sources.list to point to unstable. I updated my packages lists (apt-get update), and installed the new ext2fsck (apt-get install ext2fsprogs). The install notified me that I should upgrade libc6 from 2.0.7 to 2.1.?, I said yes, it upgraded libc6 for me (and a couple of other things). Is there something difficult about typing "apt-get install libc6"... I must be missing something.
First, let me apologize, if I sound like yet another fanatical Debian user... I am! Debian has simplified my Linux life (at work and home) immensely. Please read on, without prejudice;-)
apt-get is cool for developers but not good for business environments, where you just can't have things changing under your feet and goodness knows what breaking all the time.
This is totally wrong. I have never had apt-get break anything. apt-get is fantastic in a business environment. Does my PHB want me compiling, testing and installing new software releases by hand on each and every server we run? No he doesn't.
When slink became the stable version I simply grabbed the apt.deb from slink and installed it on every hamm system. Then I typed "apt-get update;apt-get upgrade". Webservers, squid proxy servers and mail servers were all upgraded in place, without reboot, without error. Upgrades included critical things like libc5->libc6, there wasn't a problem. I did the upgrades in the middle of the day. People were using the servers throughout the time they were being upgraded. As soon as a server package is upgraded debian restarts the process so each service, httpd, pop3, smtp, proxy, etc. was only unavailable for 2-3 seconds. Easy, reliable, in-place upgrades are what make a distribution suitable for business. I used SLS for a few years, Slackware for a few after that and Debian for the last two years... I do not foresee any reason to go backwards.
My experience trying to upgrade a Slackware 3.0 system's libc several years ago taught me that bulletproof, dependable, package management and dependencies are my friend.
Yes, Debian's release cycle is slower than most distros but it is also undeniably the stablest one going. Potato has been very slow and I was disappointed at this announcement but I am not concerned. I believe Debian will be making changes to their release procedures to allow older releases to be kept up-to-date from official sources. Also, there are numerous unofficial sources of.deb packages, many apt-gettable... I have KDE 1.1.2, the latest gimp and many other packages installed from unofficial sources, it isn't hard to keep Debian on the cutting edge if you want to.
Also although I do have T1 net access I much prefer to have a physical CD with the distribution I'm using on it. That way I know where I stand and won't be screwed if I need to do an install or grab some source when there's no net access available for some reason.
You've lost me here. Debian comes on CD, I got mine from Cheapbytes... very cheaply;-) I prefer a T1 but, yes, having the CD is a comfort factor that I wouldn't do without. I suspect you must be refering to apt-get when you mention the T1... apt-get works just fine with a CD though. Simply change your apt sources from Debian's distro site to where your CD is mounted... a URI (or is that URL?) such as file:/mnt/debian/stable.
Not true. Debian base is 34 MB installed and from there you can prune the system further if you really want to.
Granted, on install, disk requirements are ~50 MB if you install using floppies but installing via NFS your disk requirement should be no more than that of the size of the whole base.
Our firewall at work is a 386-40 with slink, 8 MB of RAM. Total install is 34 MB and it's been running several hundred days, masquerading for a 50+ PC LAN, with no problem.
Oops... just noticed your comment was potato is too big;-/... what exactly does the installed potato base come to, anyone?
Hopefully this means they will now be able to afford a decent support department. Of course big companies probably just hand out deadpan brainless answers as well.
I am sure this is just another oversight in their transition to Linux. Just like their BETA test requirements said that you needed Windows.
Bruce Perens just posted a message to debian-user stating that he talked with Corel and they will be fixing the problem.
Corel is the most supportive commerical software vendor going when it comes to Linux. They have stated that they plan to give most (all?) of their work back to the Debian community.
I'd quote the message but I don't think it's my place to do so...
I'm getting kind of tired of this. There is no competition. For amusement this week I have been going to http://www.windows2000test.com/... I have reached it twice. I have failed to reach it probably a dozen times. Sometimes it has been pingable other times not.
Someone please register windows2000joke.com because that's what this is!
I like this as well. You could built an entire thread system like this. I once tried building a threaded message board and quit when I got confused. There's probably better ways of doing this but this idea here is one of the simplest I've seen. To answer your question:
If we have a comment 1.1, the replies to it would be 1.1.1, 1.1.2, 1.1.3 Replies to the reply (1.1.2 as an example) would be 1.1.2.1, 1.1.2.2, 1.1.2.3, etc.
Acutally it's http://encap.cso.uiuc.edu/... interesting but I don't think I see a big advantage over.deb format!? The whole point in a packaging format is so that you can easily track what files belong to which package... "dpkg -L bash" for example.
Putting everything in it's own dedicated directory almost starts to sound like one of those Microsoft schemes... it's very different for sure... but I like my binaries being installed in/usr/bin and/usr/local/bin and all those other places:-)
I have used Debian on every server I have built for over 2 years. It is without a doubt the best. It was very painful for me when people would say, "Debian? I've never heard of that! Does anyone use it???"... yes I use it and so do thousands of others. Corel is here to prove to the world that it is the best... it just takes someone with an advertising budget and then Debian will rule the world;-)
I agree... what a totally stupid statement (on Mr. Gate's behalf):
The Microsoft chairman noted, for example, that early Internet browsers had been distributed for free, but said that modern browsers were far more sophisticated and could no longer be developed in a noncommercial environment.
Interesting! The Internet browser which nobody (virtually) pays for is actually the most complex application and requires commercial development. Nice... so how come we get them for free? Strange, very, very strange...
Gates said there was clearly a market for free software but this was mainly confined to relatively simple applications such as word processing and spreadsheets.
Again I think this is very odd. We pay hundreds of dollars for these "trivial" applications (such as MS-OFFICE)... yet they're a piece-of-cake to develop and any joe-blow college student can whip one together in his spare time???
This is quite revolutionary! When are we going to start getting MS-Office for free and have to start paying again for MS-Explorer? Wow, really big news hidden between these lines... this should be everywhere, spread the news!
Mr. Gates is, again, as bass ackwards as the Mindspring benchmarks that he bought!
Once againn Linux users are left out in the cold. Us CLI guys could really benefit from a kinetic superconducting keyboard generator... hehe, something like that anyway? Just think of all the keystrokes that you make in the average minute... we could recharge our laptops and perhaps power small kitchen appliances:-)
I have to agree. I used Slackware for about 4 years (before that SLS) but I have switched to Debian in the past 18 months and haven't regretted a second of it. I have shared your library upgrade pains; system lockup, no reboot, no rescue disk... DOH! The moral of the story: always have a rescue disk and don't use... nah I won't say it:-)
I just built some new systems at work based on Debian 2.1 and got my first taste of apt... what a piece of cake to keep the system up to date.
apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade
There your system is now right up to date. I did it at home as well; installed apt, and upgraded from Debian 2.0 to Debian 2.1... all automatic, no reboots, no problems, just a lot of time (60 MB and a 56k modem don't mix too well).
I haven't installed a Slackware system since the Slack 3.1 days and just took my last one out of operation (thank goodness... it was so full of holes it was silly). From what I remember you just cannot keep a Slackware system up to date... perhaps I was missing something. I'd hear about an exploit and try to find an upgraded slack.tgz... they might be there but in slack 3.4... would that work in 3.1... do I want to guess, or chance it, on a production web server? Basically it seemed to me that once installed everything on a slack system had to be hand installed/configured and compiled or you'd never be sure things would work. Has slack added any maintenance / package management features??? With 10 servers running Linux who can afford to be compiling and installing by hand?
Slack certainly had it's place - without it where would Linux be today - however it has been far surpassed by many other distributions now... time to let go!!!
Why shouldn't they make an rpm? They are selling a product. The install has been a problem for several people i know, including myself. Several of these people are running Oracle on NT for major systems. Do you think they'll be encouraged to switch to linux after they couldn't install, much less benchmark, test or play with, the single most important piece of software they run. Anyway, why should installation be so hard?
Because they should be making.deb's... rpm sucks, wake up and smell the Debian roses!
Slashdot Mirror
I've been fetching my Debian kde packages from the same place for ages. Add this to your /etc/apt/sources.list:
deb http://download.kde.org/stable/latest/Debian/ stable main
Then:
apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade
Saddam is just another western flunkie that stopped playing along (same as Bin Laden) ... at least now there's no denying of the fact that Iraq is US controlled.
http://deoxy.org/wc/index.htm
You haven't learned yet? Throw Microsoft products in the trash. *n[ui]x vulnerabilities never require a reboot except in the rare event of a kernel level exploit. Your clients will thank you for switching.
Why in [gG]od's name is this post marked as insightful??? You state nothing other than the bloody obvious!
Also, what the hell is FOSS? I've heard of GNU, free software, OSS, BSD
We have a small Linux support company, all told we've installed/maintain on the order of a few hundred Linux machines. We faced this exact decision in the past months.
We've decided to use Debian as our default distribution from now on. When we tell our customers they really don't care, we explain our reasons and they're more than happy to switch for the same reasons that we are:
- stability
- upgradeability/maintainability
- vendor neutrality
- software availability (8,000+ packages)
- etc.
I've been trying to get our organization to use Debian for 3 years, it's funny that finally Redhat themselves have forced the switch.
I host my email on a DSL ISP in canada and they blocked outgoing SMTP long ago. It's easy to work around though just relay all email from your server through the ISP's SMTP server.
This is a good thing because it makes it much easier for AOL to catch spammers.
Does anyone know of an apt-gettable source for evolution/helix-gnome?
I love this book. Very concise and easy to read while containing a respectable amount of real world information!
Have people here used them and found that things really work and work well?
As for Debian's libc6 upgrade what is difficult? I was testing ext3 journalling, which required ext2fsck >= 1.16. Being too lazy to compile, and not wanting to override my Debian installation, I just changed my /etc/apt/sources.list to point to unstable. I updated my packages lists (apt-get update), and installed the new ext2fsck (apt-get install ext2fsprogs). The install notified me that I should upgrade libc6 from 2.0.7 to 2.1.?, I said yes, it upgraded libc6 for me (and a couple of other things). Is there something difficult about typing "apt-get install libc6" ... I must be missing something.
When slink became the stable version I simply grabbed the apt .deb from slink and installed it on every hamm system. Then I typed "apt-get update;apt-get upgrade". Webservers, squid proxy servers and mail servers were all upgraded in place, without reboot, without error. Upgrades included critical things like libc5->libc6, there wasn't a problem. I did the upgrades in the middle of the day. People were using the servers throughout the time they were being upgraded. As soon as a server package is upgraded debian restarts the process so each service, httpd, pop3, smtp, proxy, etc. was only unavailable for 2-3 seconds. Easy, reliable, in-place upgrades are what make a distribution suitable for business. I used SLS for a few years, Slackware for a few after that and Debian for the last two years ... I do not foresee any reason to go backwards.
My experience trying to upgrade a Slackware 3.0 system's libc several years ago taught me that bulletproof, dependable, package management and dependencies are my friend.
Yes, Debian's release cycle is slower than most distros but it is also undeniably the stablest one going. Potato has been very slow and I was disappointed at this announcement but I am not concerned. I believe Debian will be making changes to their release procedures to allow older releases to be kept up-to-date from official sources. Also, there are numerous unofficial sources of .deb packages, many apt-gettable ... I have KDE 1.1.2, the latest gimp and many other packages installed from unofficial sources, it isn't hard to keep Debian on the cutting edge if you want to.
You've lost me here. Debian comes on CD, I got mine from CheapbytesWhew, I'm out of breath now, go Debian!!!
Granted, on install, disk requirements are ~50 MB if you install using floppies but installing via NFS your disk requirement should be no more than that of the size of the whole base.
Our firewall at work is a 386-40 with slink, 8 MB of RAM. Total install is 34 MB and it's been running several hundred days, masquerading for a 50+ PC LAN, with no problem.
Oops ... just noticed your comment was potato is too big ;-/ ... what exactly does the installed potato base come to, anyone?
My drive has just two partitions, 10 MB /boot and ~4 GB / ... after hitting the power button reboot happens with no delay.
Judging by the documentation, ext3 has quite a long way to go but hey, it does work. Reiserfs looks ready for prime-time.
I'm sure reiserfs and ext3 with both have their niche and I for one am very excited at this news!
I am not a big fan!
Bruce Perens just posted a message to debian-user stating that he talked with Corel and they will be fixing the problem.
Corel is the most supportive commerical software vendor going when it comes to Linux. They have stated that they plan to give most (all?) of their work back to the Debian community.
I'd quote the message but I don't think it's my place to do so ...
Someone please register windows2000joke.com because that's what this is!
If we have a comment 1.1, the replies to it would be 1.1.1, 1.1.2, 1.1.3
Replies to the reply (1.1.2 as an example) would be 1.1.2.1, 1.1.2.2, 1.1.2.3, etc.
Neato!
That's awesome. It could be true. Can't wait for the centathlon, kilathlon or even the megathlon.
:-)
I think I'll be waiting a long time so the biathlon or triathlon will be just fine
Putting everything in it's own dedicated directory almost starts to sound like one of those Microsoft schemes ... it's very different for sure ... but I like my binaries being installed in /usr/bin and /usr/local/bin and all those other places :-)
rpm=yuck, deb=good!
Again I think this is very odd. We pay hundreds of dollars for these "trivial" applications (such as MS-OFFICE) ... yet they're a piece-of-cake to develop and any joe-blow college student can whip one together in his spare time???
This is quite revolutionary! When are we going to start getting MS-Office for free and have to start paying again for MS-Explorer? Wow, really big news hidden between these lines ... this should be everywhere, spread the news!
Mr. Gates is, again, as bass ackwards as the Mindspring benchmarks that he bought!
Once againn Linux users are left out in the cold. Us CLI guys could really benefit from a kinetic superconducting keyboard generator ... hehe, something like that anyway? Just think of all the keystrokes that you make in the average minute ... we could recharge our laptops and perhaps power small kitchen appliances :-)
I just built some new systems at work based on Debian 2.1 and got my first taste of apt ... what a piece of cake to keep the system up to date.
apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade
There your system is now right up to date. I did it at home as well; installed apt, and upgraded from Debian 2.0 to Debian 2.1 ... all automatic, no reboots, no problems, just a lot of time (60 MB and a 56k modem don't mix too well).
I haven't installed a Slackware system since the Slack 3.1 days and just took my last one out of operation (thank goodness ... it was so full of holes it was silly). From what I remember you just cannot keep a Slackware system up to date ... perhaps I was missing something. I'd hear about an exploit and try to find an upgraded slack .tgz ... they might be there but in slack 3.4 ... would that work in 3.1 ... do I want to guess, or chance it, on a production web server? Basically it seemed to me that once installed everything on a slack system had to be hand installed/configured and compiled or you'd never be sure things would work. Has slack added any maintenance / package management features??? With 10 servers running Linux who can afford to be compiling and installing by hand?
Slack certainly had it's place - without it where would Linux be today - however it has been far surpassed by many other distributions now ... time to let go!!!
Heh, just kidding (sort of)!