Downgrade rights are an end-user right, documented in the Software License Terms that customers accept upon first running Windows software. Note that end user downgrade rights will be available through the sales life cycle of Windows and Windows Server operating systems, which is up to two years after the launch date of a new version.... Windows 8 Pro includes downgrade rights to: Windows 7 Professional, Windows Vista Business
So if you buy a Windows 8 PC, you can downgrade it to Windows 7 until 2014.
You're trying to argue that Windows 8 is more lock in to Microsoft and dependency on Microsoft tools. This is blatantly false. You can use any combination of tools from Google, and you are in no way forced to use a Microsoft account or related products such as mail, calendar, etc. If you want everything to be tied to a Google account and work seamlessly with Google products, buy a Chrombook. Otherwise, there will be options for Google users in the future on Windows 8, but at Google's discretion, not Microsoft's.
So I can save my office document and open it on my Android Phone or my Linux laptop?
Yes, via the skydrive app on Android or the website on Linux (there is no desktop client on Linux, probably never will be)
If Windows allowed me to log in with my Google ID and synced with my Google Drive and let me switch at any time (or even use both services for backup), it might be worth my time. So far, all I see out of Microsoft is more lock in and dependency on Microsoft tools.
There's nothing stopping Google from releasing Gmail and Google Drive metro apps on Windows 8.
I've yet to see a single compelling reason to move to Windows 8 for desktop/laptop.
There probably isn't a single "killer feature" that can get you to move, but rarely is there ever such a thing. I use Windows 8 on my laptop and desktop, and find myself in desktop mode 99% of the time.I personally don't mind the metro interface, I actually like some of the apps, and I especially don't miss the start menu (never used it in Windows 7 TBH).
However, there are various niceities I enjoy in Windows 8 including the multi-monitor improvements, fast boot time (~8 seconds on my Desktop), explorer enhancements (thank god the up directory button is back), vastly improved task manager (especially love the detailed performance graphs and startup options right there, instead of in msconfig.exe), improved copy dialogue, etc.
On the other hand, you can get many of the improvements by bolting add-ons to Windows 7, I suppose. They probably won't be as nicely integrated, but they will work. At any rate, I'm happy with Windows 8 on my laptop, tablet, and desktop. I don't find the Metro interface any less usable with a mouse and keyboard, especially with the plethora of shortcuts for each.
I can get external WiFi hard drives if I want more storage space and play media from them.
Wifi harddrive? Really? Those things have terrible transfer rates, cost at least twice as much as regular harddrives, and further require extra power draw. I haven't used one with an iPad so I'm not sure how the experience is there, but I have not been pleased with them.
Regardless, the iPad still does not offer always-in extensible storage. Max you can ever do is 64GB. For around $100 I can put in a 128GB SD card into the surface for total always on-board storage of 160GB (which incidentally is about the same price to go from 32 to 64 GB on the iPad).
That is correct. But that matters more than you would think.
I'm not so sure. On my desktop install, I have full office, Adobe CS6 (Photoshop, Illustartor, InDesign, Premiere), Matlab, Visual Studio, and a couple games and those massive beasts only take around 20GB of storage, which is around what the Surface has for Appdata. On my windows 8 install I have around 70 apps installed, and the total diskspace they consume is around 2GB. Remember, these are metro apps which are for the most part very light.
The iPad also has a USB port. How do you know ANY of those things (apart from mice) will have drivers in WindowsRT?
By way of $30 dongle. You can't just connect anything you like to it. USB drives, mice, and external harddrives for instance are not supported. It is intended as a "camera connection" kit for transferring pictures from a camera, and not much else.
As far as windows RT peripheral support, yes mice, keyboards, USB drives, and portable harddrives will universally work through standard drivers. Aside from them Dell and HP are supporting Windows RT with their printer lines. Yes, many still aren't supported, but the list is growing. Microsoft already announced Xbox 360 controllers will work with Windows RT.
Look, the same people shipping windows RT products are also the ones making peripherals and writing drivers for said peripherals. If Dell is selling a Windows RT tablet, they're going to make damn sure their printers and other accessories will also work with their Windows RT tablet in particular and other Windows RT tablets as a consequence. This is not true with Apple, where device makers can only hope that by making their printer or other hardware compatible with iPad (where at all possible) they can at least get one of Apple's customers to purchase through them.
You can with the right application. You mentioned Dropbox as one of them.
Ah, I see. Thanks, but not really what I was looking for.
I can't see that being the only criteria for any enterprise use.
Of course it's not the *only* criteria. But say I want to equip a salesman with a tablet. I want him to be able to accept signatures, to run custom sales software, to connect to our corporate network via VPN, to be able to download inventory data, to create purchase orders... etc. Netbooks, Ultrabooks, Macbook Air, etc. can probably do 90% of that. But accepting signatures is a great feature for a mobile salesperson. Or even the ability to pass the device around a room easily, which a tablet allows and a clamshell form factor prohibits, is a great feature. Windows 8 tablets do all of the above and the extra 10%.
I should note it was a review unit... so I don't know how it compares to the shipping units. It wasn't pre-production though so I'm guessing they shouldn't be the same.
With all of the accessories I also think the iPad has the upper hand here. You can buy a ruggedized waterproof iPad case for example...
Sorry, forgot this one. Sure can make a franken-iPad by cobbling together different parts and accessories, but the iPad is still the iPad not matter what you really want to buy. With Windows tablets you have different form factors (hybrid-slide out keyboard, detachable keyboard, rotating screen, etc.), different size displays, different wireless options (NFC for instance, not something available for iPad), different materials, different resolutions, etc. All these come in at different price points. This choice is indeed a feature in comparison to the rather homogeneous iPad lineup.
Which is more than can be said for iPad. Further, by media, what you really mean to correct me with is that application installs are only on the built in storage. You can put any file type on the surface, not just media, as the file system is open.
The iPad at this point has a greater range of peripheral support.
Of course excluding every mouse out there. But already with the built in USB port Windows RT has support for keyboards, mice, scanners, printers, USB memory, cameras, game controllers, external harddrives, external CD/DVD drives, etc.
Which non-technical users do not want.
The question was not "what does RT do that the ipad doesn't that only technical users care about." This is a big plus for someone like me and others similarly situated.
Which the iPad also does.
How? When I'm on my network, I can't connect directly to my iPad and pull files from my iPad, or when I'm on my iPad I can't copy files directly to my computer. I use Dropbox to transfer all my files and I'm not aware of an easier way.... any help would be most welcome.
The Surface Pro is not an iPad competitor. It is a Macbook Air competitor.
If I want a touch screen computer for a corporate environment, the Macbook Air will not be on the list due to its lack of a touch screen. The list will consist of products like the iPad and Galaxy tablets, and now the Surface Pro.
If a corporation is considering an iPad for certain tasks, they're doing so because of the touch interface and form factor. There is no reason to consider an iPad otherwise. Ultraportables, Notebooks, and the Macbook Air do not offer this advantage at any price. Surface Pro and other Windows 8 tablets further offer the advantage of being able to write on the screen. This is preferable for some professionals.
My friend who has one was complaining about the screen... I see in the specs it's a TFT as opposed to IPS that are in most tablets these days. Haven't seen the screen myself. How is the brightness on the display?
I don't think even Microsoft cares if the Surface itself ends up with a reasonable market share of tablets. What they want is Windows 8/RT to end up with a reasonable share. Its hard to remember with all the current Surface hype, but Surface isn't the only Windows tablet being released.
Office built in for free
Side by side application multitasking
Multi-user operating system
Expandable storage
More peripheral device support
More manufacturers at a variety of price points and options
More form factors (foldable hybrid, detachable screen, pure tablet, etc.)
Open file system for managing and organizing files
Networking for connecting to other PCs, transferring files, serving media, etc.
Not sure why you're talking about Windows RT with respect to corporate though. Windows RT is aimed squarely at the consumer market. Windows 8 tablets like the Surface pro are for Enterprise. There, the list for what Windows 8 does over iPad is much much longer. (Either way, nothing stopping you from developing your own enterprise apps for Windows RT.)
They aren't cutting support for Windows 7; they're just not aggregating updates into a single download. There hasn't been a Service Pack for Windows XP in 4 years, but the OS is still supported and will be for another two years. Service Packs are a relic from an age where the internet was not as pervasive, windows update was in its infancy, and it was easier to install a single offline update. Now, everyone is connected to the internet, and the difference between installing 80 updates online and a single service pack online is transparent.
Yes they do. I'm not sure where you get that idea, but Office apps run on the desktop, as well as desktop IE, system utilities, and most important explorer. That's about it as far as the desktop goes on Windows RT.
It's not surprising to me as Windows RT is clearly, squarely a consumer product, aimed at students and home users.
Everyone keeps saying how Windows RT and the Surface is terrible for businesses because you can't use Office RT for profit or you can't manage the devices with group policies, you can't run legacy software.... well yeah. That's what the Surface Pro is for... hence the "Pro" moniker. Surface Pro does absolutely everything a Windows 8 desktop does. Sure it's going to be heavier and cost a little more, but that's the price you pay for all that extra functionality.
You can insert a USB drive or SD card with videos/picture/music loaded on it, go into the appropriate app, and open them right from there. No need to go into desktop mode. Not sure why this reviewer is making it more complicated than it needs to be. You can alternatively open the drive in explorer and open whatever you like right there.
You can use it in business, you just need the appropriate license. According to Microsoft:
As sold, Office Home & Student 2013 RT Preview and the final edition are not designed for commercial, nonprofit, or revenue-generating activities. However, organizations who purchase commercial use rights or have a commercial license to Office 2013 suites can use Office Home & Student 2013 RT for commercial, nonprofit, or revenue-generating activities..
I can easily imagine that Microsoft stipulated a single OS solution, or they would not provide the same assistance they did in terms of augmenting R&D and cash infusions. If Nokia went with Android as well, I could easily see Microsoft saying "Look, you're on your own. Oh and by the way, we need to talk about certain patent agreements like the ones we have already put in place with other Android manufacturers..."
I disagree. My Xbox remote was destroyed about a month ago, so I resorted to using voice commands until I could buy a new remote. Since then, I haven't even considered buying a remote, and my girlfriend is even using the voice recognition as well. My favorite is the "next episode" during Netflix marathons. That was indispensable when I had the flu last week and was laid up on the couch. Obviously voice recognition isn't ideal for everyone, but for some reason it seems to be tuned pretty well to my voice.
As if Elop made this decision unilaterally? The board of directors went along with him on this. Further, what exactly would you sue him for? Potential profits that maybe the company possibly could have made by going with Android?
Microsoft offered them a very sweet deal: $1 billion, engineering support from Microsoft to help with the transition, and technology sharing agreements which lead to Nokia mapping technology being used in Bing, Windows 7/8, and Windows 8/RT. Not to mention the patent protection provided by Microsoft in all Windows Phone licenses, something that Samsung knows all too well Google does not provide.
And Google was offering.... absolutely nothing. It would be pretty hard to show that Elop was being somehow "negligent" by taking the company in this direction, as it's not even certain that had they gone with Android, they wouldn't already be dead.
How well exactly is HTC doing releasing a series of "ME TOO" android phones? All the sales and profit in Android seems to be accumulating with Samsung, which is almost synonymous with the OS.
That's why the resurgence of inductive stylus digitizers is so exciting. The iPad shunned the stylus like it was a relic, yet some of the best selling accessories for the iPad are fat (and useless) capacitive styluses. Windows and Android tablets are bringing them back, and people are finding that they are actually useful.
I made no comment on what the price will be. My comment was conjecture, that if the price is less than the iPod touch, I would be less inclined to buy an iPod touch because I would feel as if I am overpaying. Many people have an innate (usually irrational when it comes to technology) intuition that bigger == better. Line the three devices up side by side and most people will price the iPod touch as the least expensive, the iPad mini as the middle, and the iPad as the most expensive. When you tell them "No, the iPod is the middle and the iPad mini is the least expensive" it seems counterintuitive. The reaction is then either "Am I getting ripped off for the iPod touch?" or "What's wrong with the iPad mini that makes it so cheap?"
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Downgrade rights are an end-user right, documented in the Software License Terms that customers accept upon first running Windows software. Note that end user downgrade rights will be available through the sales life cycle of Windows and Windows Server operating systems, which is up to two years after the launch date of a new version. ... Windows 8 Pro includes downgrade rights to: Windows 7 Professional, Windows Vista Business
So if you buy a Windows 8 PC, you can downgrade it to Windows 7 until 2014.
Further, Windows 7 support continues until 2015, with extended support until 2020 (or 10 years after launch, for those counting).
Windows 7 isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
You're trying to argue that Windows 8 is more lock in to Microsoft and dependency on Microsoft tools. This is blatantly false. You can use any combination of tools from Google, and you are in no way forced to use a Microsoft account or related products such as mail, calendar, etc. If you want everything to be tied to a Google account and work seamlessly with Google products, buy a Chrombook. Otherwise, there will be options for Google users in the future on Windows 8, but at Google's discretion, not Microsoft's.
So I can save my office document and open it on my Android Phone or my Linux laptop?
Yes, via the skydrive app on Android or the website on Linux (there is no desktop client on Linux, probably never will be)
If Windows allowed me to log in with my Google ID and synced with my Google Drive and let me switch at any time (or even use both services for backup), it might be worth my time. So far, all I see out of Microsoft is more lock in and dependency on Microsoft tools.
There's nothing stopping Google from releasing Gmail and Google Drive metro apps on Windows 8.
This should explain it well enough: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/21/enhancing-windows-8-for-multiple-monitors.aspx
I've yet to see a single compelling reason to move to Windows 8 for desktop/laptop.
There probably isn't a single "killer feature" that can get you to move, but rarely is there ever such a thing. I use Windows 8 on my laptop and desktop, and find myself in desktop mode 99% of the time.I personally don't mind the metro interface, I actually like some of the apps, and I especially don't miss the start menu (never used it in Windows 7 TBH).
However, there are various niceities I enjoy in Windows 8 including the multi-monitor improvements, fast boot time (~8 seconds on my Desktop), explorer enhancements (thank god the up directory button is back), vastly improved task manager (especially love the detailed performance graphs and startup options right there, instead of in msconfig.exe), improved copy dialogue, etc.
On the other hand, you can get many of the improvements by bolting add-ons to Windows 7, I suppose. They probably won't be as nicely integrated, but they will work. At any rate, I'm happy with Windows 8 on my laptop, tablet, and desktop. I don't find the Metro interface any less usable with a mouse and keyboard, especially with the plethora of shortcuts for each.
I can get external WiFi hard drives if I want more storage space and play media from them.
Wifi harddrive? Really? Those things have terrible transfer rates, cost at least twice as much as regular harddrives, and further require extra power draw. I haven't used one with an iPad so I'm not sure how the experience is there, but I have not been pleased with them.
Regardless, the iPad still does not offer always-in extensible storage. Max you can ever do is 64GB. For around $100 I can put in a 128GB SD card into the surface for total always on-board storage of 160GB (which incidentally is about the same price to go from 32 to 64 GB on the iPad).
That is correct. But that matters more than you would think.
I'm not so sure. On my desktop install, I have full office, Adobe CS6 (Photoshop, Illustartor, InDesign, Premiere), Matlab, Visual Studio, and a couple games and those massive beasts only take around 20GB of storage, which is around what the Surface has for Appdata. On my windows 8 install I have around 70 apps installed, and the total diskspace they consume is around 2GB. Remember, these are metro apps which are for the most part very light.
The iPad also has a USB port. How do you know ANY of those things (apart from mice) will have drivers in WindowsRT?
By way of $30 dongle. You can't just connect anything you like to it. USB drives, mice, and external harddrives for instance are not supported. It is intended as a "camera connection" kit for transferring pictures from a camera, and not much else.
As far as windows RT peripheral support, yes mice, keyboards, USB drives, and portable harddrives will universally work through standard drivers. Aside from them Dell and HP are supporting Windows RT with their printer lines. Yes, many still aren't supported, but the list is growing. Microsoft already announced Xbox 360 controllers will work with Windows RT.
Look, the same people shipping windows RT products are also the ones making peripherals and writing drivers for said peripherals. If Dell is selling a Windows RT tablet, they're going to make damn sure their printers and other accessories will also work with their Windows RT tablet in particular and other Windows RT tablets as a consequence. This is not true with Apple, where device makers can only hope that by making their printer or other hardware compatible with iPad (where at all possible) they can at least get one of Apple's customers to purchase through them.
You can with the right application. You mentioned Dropbox as one of them.
Ah, I see. Thanks, but not really what I was looking for.
I can't see that being the only criteria for any enterprise use.
Of course it's not the *only* criteria. But say I want to equip a salesman with a tablet. I want him to be able to accept signatures, to run custom sales software, to connect to our corporate network via VPN, to be able to download inventory data, to create purchase orders... etc. Netbooks, Ultrabooks, Macbook Air, etc. can probably do 90% of that. But accepting signatures is a great feature for a mobile salesperson. Or even the ability to pass the device around a room easily, which a tablet allows and a clamshell form factor prohibits, is a great feature. Windows 8 tablets do all of the above and the extra 10%.
I should note it was a review unit... so I don't know how it compares to the shipping units. It wasn't pre-production though so I'm guessing they shouldn't be the same.
With all of the accessories I also think the iPad has the upper hand here. You can buy a ruggedized waterproof iPad case for example...
Sorry, forgot this one. Sure can make a franken-iPad by cobbling together different parts and accessories, but the iPad is still the iPad not matter what you really want to buy. With Windows tablets you have different form factors (hybrid-slide out keyboard, detachable keyboard, rotating screen, etc.), different size displays, different wireless options (NFC for instance, not something available for iPad), different materials, different resolutions, etc. All these come in at different price points. This choice is indeed a feature in comparison to the rather homogeneous iPad lineup.
Only for media.
Which is more than can be said for iPad. Further, by media, what you really mean to correct me with is that application installs are only on the built in storage. You can put any file type on the surface, not just media, as the file system is open.
The iPad at this point has a greater range of peripheral support.
Of course excluding every mouse out there. But already with the built in USB port Windows RT has support for keyboards, mice, scanners, printers, USB memory, cameras, game controllers, external harddrives, external CD/DVD drives, etc.
Which non-technical users do not want.
The question was not "what does RT do that the ipad doesn't that only technical users care about." This is a big plus for someone like me and others similarly situated.
Which the iPad also does.
How? When I'm on my network, I can't connect directly to my iPad and pull files from my iPad, or when I'm on my iPad I can't copy files directly to my computer. I use Dropbox to transfer all my files and I'm not aware of an easier way.... any help would be most welcome.
The Surface Pro is not an iPad competitor. It is a Macbook Air competitor.
If I want a touch screen computer for a corporate environment, the Macbook Air will not be on the list due to its lack of a touch screen. The list will consist of products like the iPad and Galaxy tablets, and now the Surface Pro.
If a corporation is considering an iPad for certain tasks, they're doing so because of the touch interface and form factor. There is no reason to consider an iPad otherwise. Ultraportables, Notebooks, and the Macbook Air do not offer this advantage at any price. Surface Pro and other Windows 8 tablets further offer the advantage of being able to write on the screen. This is preferable for some professionals.
My friend who has one was complaining about the screen... I see in the specs it's a TFT as opposed to IPS that are in most tablets these days. Haven't seen the screen myself. How is the brightness on the display?
I don't think even Microsoft cares if the Surface itself ends up with a reasonable market share of tablets. What they want is Windows 8/RT to end up with a reasonable share. Its hard to remember with all the current Surface hype, but Surface isn't the only Windows tablet being released.
Office built in for free
Side by side application multitasking
Multi-user operating system
Expandable storage
More peripheral device support
More manufacturers at a variety of price points and options
More form factors (foldable hybrid, detachable screen, pure tablet, etc.)
Open file system for managing and organizing files
Networking for connecting to other PCs, transferring files, serving media, etc.
Not sure why you're talking about Windows RT with respect to corporate though. Windows RT is aimed squarely at the consumer market. Windows 8 tablets like the Surface pro are for Enterprise. There, the list for what Windows 8 does over iPad is much much longer. (Either way, nothing stopping you from developing your own enterprise apps for Windows RT.)
They aren't cutting support for Windows 7; they're just not aggregating updates into a single download. There hasn't been a Service Pack for Windows XP in 4 years, but the OS is still supported and will be for another two years. Service Packs are a relic from an age where the internet was not as pervasive, windows update was in its infancy, and it was easier to install a single offline update. Now, everyone is connected to the internet, and the difference between installing 80 updates online and a single service pack online is transparent.
Windows RT devices don't have a desktop.
Yes they do. I'm not sure where you get that idea, but Office apps run on the desktop, as well as desktop IE, system utilities, and most important explorer. That's about it as far as the desktop goes on Windows RT.
It's not surprising to me as Windows RT is clearly, squarely a consumer product, aimed at students and home users.
Everyone keeps saying how Windows RT and the Surface is terrible for businesses because you can't use Office RT for profit or you can't manage the devices with group policies, you can't run legacy software.... well yeah. That's what the Surface Pro is for... hence the "Pro" moniker. Surface Pro does absolutely everything a Windows 8 desktop does. Sure it's going to be heavier and cost a little more, but that's the price you pay for all that extra functionality.
You can insert a USB drive or SD card with videos/picture/music loaded on it, go into the appropriate app, and open them right from there. No need to go into desktop mode. Not sure why this reviewer is making it more complicated than it needs to be. You can alternatively open the drive in explorer and open whatever you like right there.
They have specified everything: http://office.microsoft.com/en-gb/home-and-student/office-home-student-rt-preview-FX103210361.aspx
Click on "What Office Home & Student 2013 features are unavailable in Office Home & Student 2013 RT?"
As sold, Office Home & Student 2013 RT Preview and the final edition are not designed for commercial, nonprofit, or revenue-generating activities. However, organizations who purchase commercial use rights or have a commercial license to Office 2013 suites can use Office Home & Student 2013 RT for commercial, nonprofit, or revenue-generating activities..
Source: http://office.microsoft.com/en-gb/home-and-student/office-home-student-rt-preview-FX103210361.aspx
I can easily imagine that Microsoft stipulated a single OS solution, or they would not provide the same assistance they did in terms of augmenting R&D and cash infusions. If Nokia went with Android as well, I could easily see Microsoft saying "Look, you're on your own. Oh and by the way, we need to talk about certain patent agreements like the ones we have already put in place with other Android manufacturers..."
I disagree. My Xbox remote was destroyed about a month ago, so I resorted to using voice commands until I could buy a new remote. Since then, I haven't even considered buying a remote, and my girlfriend is even using the voice recognition as well. My favorite is the "next episode" during Netflix marathons. That was indispensable when I had the flu last week and was laid up on the couch. Obviously voice recognition isn't ideal for everyone, but for some reason it seems to be tuned pretty well to my voice.
As if Elop made this decision unilaterally? The board of directors went along with him on this. Further, what exactly would you sue him for? Potential profits that maybe the company possibly could have made by going with Android?
Microsoft offered them a very sweet deal: $1 billion, engineering support from Microsoft to help with the transition, and technology sharing agreements which lead to Nokia mapping technology being used in Bing, Windows 7/8, and Windows 8/RT. Not to mention the patent protection provided by Microsoft in all Windows Phone licenses, something that Samsung knows all too well Google does not provide.
And Google was offering.... absolutely nothing. It would be pretty hard to show that Elop was being somehow "negligent" by taking the company in this direction, as it's not even certain that had they gone with Android, they wouldn't already be dead.
How well exactly is HTC doing releasing a series of "ME TOO" android phones? All the sales and profit in Android seems to be accumulating with Samsung, which is almost synonymous with the OS.
That's why the resurgence of inductive stylus digitizers is so exciting. The iPad shunned the stylus like it was a relic, yet some of the best selling accessories for the iPad are fat (and useless) capacitive styluses. Windows and Android tablets are bringing them back, and people are finding that they are actually useful.
I made no comment on what the price will be. My comment was conjecture, that if the price is less than the iPod touch, I would be less inclined to buy an iPod touch because I would feel as if I am overpaying. Many people have an innate (usually irrational when it comes to technology) intuition that bigger == better. Line the three devices up side by side and most people will price the iPod touch as the least expensive, the iPad mini as the middle, and the iPad as the most expensive. When you tell them "No, the iPod is the middle and the iPad mini is the least expensive" it seems counterintuitive. The reaction is then either "Am I getting ripped off for the iPod touch?" or "What's wrong with the iPad mini that makes it so cheap?"