"everywhere, they always have turned out that way"
Yes, they have. Did the people stop them? No. I'm not even really a supporter of communism, but claiming it's completely impossible without any real evidence is just idiotic (not that you did).
"The only thing of note are the number of glassy-eyed college students"
I'd refrain from such stereotypical statements, honestly.
"Why, if it weren't for those evil people who think that maybe if they're willing to work more hours in a day or risk something to better their own circumstances or provide something more for their families"
I'm not going to debate about if communism can work, but I'm just going to say that I only meant to point out that when referring to communism, you shouldn't pretend like they have to be similar to China/Russia.
"Write your congressman, let them know how you feel, and vote!"
If I was a mod, I'd mod you funny. That's simply hilarious beyond all words. It is likely that all politicians are merely corporate tools out for power and money, so I don't think that our petty little opinions and votes will do much, especially when the government is able to pass any laws/bills without the consent of the people. Voting in other politicians will just allow for more of the same (this). I fear that it won't get better until the government is completely overthrown (unlikely), but I hope that is not the case.
Except the communist part, pretty much. People assume that all communisms must be exactly like China/Russia, and that's simply not true in the slightest.
"this will not prevent terrorists from communicating securel"
I don't care if it did. Eroding the freedom of the people is not worth 'saving' (if you call that saving, since they'd be miserable living under such a tyrannical government anyway) a few lives.
This nation was 'destroyed' long ago when it was decided to be a republic and/or follow a capitalistic approach. What you now see is a constant struggle for power and money by corporate tools, and if nothing is done soon, they will surely succeed. Sadly, thanks to the way this system was implemented, the votes of the people do little, and it is mostly in the hands of the government.
If you get rid of privacy or measures that help ensure privacy, it will be all the easier for the government to get rid of opposing voices/abuse their power. As others have said, the average person has absolutely no idea how these things work or what benefits they provide. If this continues, things are only going to get worse and worse.
"there would be far too many for any one person to memorize or search for."
So, the resources you're using to learn this new material aren't enough but a single "experienced" teacher is? If there's so many possible mistakes that they all can't be memorized, I highly doubt that. It can be solved without a teacher.
"Math is not about rote memorization."
Technically, everything is.
"Like I said, it is easy to make those sorts of assumptions and mistakes without realizing it"
Yes, it is. That is why I've said numerous times to double check your work. Make sure it isn't filled with assumptions or mistakes!
"which require the guidance of an experienced teacher."
What I'm saying is that if an experienced teacher knows something, chances are it has been done before. If it is not common knowledge, then you can do something about it. Make it common knowledge so that no one will make this mistake in the future.
"I have seen it happen in CS and math at the very least"
You memorize math formulas for a reason. The mistake is your own fault, and not a problem with self teaching or homeschooling. Double check your work.
In programming, there is an entire world of knowledge available online about which practices you should use and which you should avoid, as well as many, many tutorials. While obviously you will come in contact with bugs and glitches, these are unavoidable to even the most experienced people. Again, double check your work (code).
"For example, it is common for students to assume that they will only ever deal with finite or countable sets"
Apparently, information that tells you not to do so is available online (if it wasn't before, it certainly is now). If the information is not present, make it present. The more alternatives that are available, the better. But, like I said, so much information is already present that I doubt that there are many subjects left uncovered.
"My professor was very good at pointing out where I had made an invalid assumption"
I would think that it would merely require basic logic to figure such things out.
"f someone does not have a teacher who can tell them whether or not their proof is correct, and they wrote something which does not match their book or any proof they find online"
The latter is an unlikely scenario. Still possible, but unlikely.
"which is detrimental to their learning"
Not necessarily. Finding your own solutions can prove highly beneficial to your learning, not only because you'll likely memorize the information better, but because there is a good chance that you will find other things out in the process as well.
These mistakes that you say can't be fixed unless you have a teacher (even then, it would still be possible to find and fix them) are rare, and likely do not detract from the benefits of self teaching or homeschooling. They will have to be applied at some point, and that is when the mistake will become evidence. Finding your own solutions, as I said before, is highly beneficial to the learning process.
"In particular, if you were asked to write a proof there is no step-by-step process for getting the answer, a statement which itself was proved by Turing"
Yes, and in most things, there is no way to check your mistakes but to try out your methods yourself to the best of your ability. Chances are, someone has done what you're trying to do already (unless it's something completely new, but in that case, a teacher likely couldn't even help you). That is where the internet comes in.
"Just because a school is public doesn't necessarily mean that the education is sub par"
I didn't say the education was sub par (in most cases, the teachers actually do know what they're talking about, and the class has a decent curriculum to follow by), I said that it lacked an efficient use of time and lacked choice. Failing an entire year simply because you failed a class that you did not need in your specific career choice does not appeal to me, and it shouldn't to anyone else. A school should be a place where you are given the resources needed to learn, it shouldn't be a place where they force you to take useless classes and focus on worthless grades.
That is what I was getting at. If they fix these things, I will be alright with the schooling system.
"Like the point when they learn what they should learn? It seems quite a catch 22, doesn't it?"
No. Not quite what I meant. I meant that it is likely that they either did not have the resources to teach themselves properly, they didn't have any sort of direction, or perhaps self teaching simply wasn't the smart choice for them (not what I said, I know, but it is what I meant).
"Maybe it's because your selfteaching forgot about a bit of logics."
I wasn't self taught. I was taught in a public school.
"You keep talking about "resources" without really specifying what those "resources" are."
All of what you listed, plus the internet.
"As for having mistakes explained, not all mistakes are the result of poor memorization."
I never said that they were, and I even explained that double checking your work is always a good idea. If you're doing it correctly step by step, you'll be able to double check it.
"When you make a mistake, who is going to explain what went wrong?"
This is where researching your information comes in! Always double check to make sure your information is correct (by using your resources).
"Like I said, I am sure people can learn the basics without an experienced teacher, but there is more to learn than just the basics."
Same as above. Really, if you're not able to learn it, you don't have the right resources. In which case, obviously you're going to make many mistakes and won't get very far.
I'm also not going to pretend that self teaching is for everyone. It really isn't. Many people will find it more difficult than homeschooling or public schooling, so they could always go with those. However, some people really are able to teach themselves what they need, and can do so quickly and efficiently (memorizing information also becomes more simple if you do it by yourself and solve your own problems).
"I said that they will have trouble going beyond the basics, except perhaps in the particular subject their parents are experts in"
Only if they don't have the proper resources!
"Again, who is going to explain why their mistakes are mistakes?"
What? Where are they getting their information from? Are they just making it up? If so, of course they're going to make mistakes. However, if they get their information from reasonably credible resources, they can always double check it. The parents learn as they go, too, remember. The key is willpower.
All you need (or should need) is knowledge. If you have that, you can get things done. Despite popular belief, knowledge doesn't just come from schools. It can come from your parents, books, and even the internet. The problem is, far too many places are too focused on ultimately worthless degrees. A degree by no means ensures that someone knows what they're talking about (it might indicate it more than if they didn't have a degree, but nothing can be certain). What really should matter is what you know, and far too many jobs seem to neglect this fact.
"Sorry, but there are insights that are just not published in books. I used to think that I could teach myself certain subjects, but without the guidance of someone with years of experience, I missed things, even after reading every word of multiple textbooks. Getting by without a good teacher is not something I would expect anyone to be able to do, except for the absolute basics of a given topic."
This is why you need direction. No, this doesn't come from someone with "years of experience," it can come from just about any source. There's all kinds of curriculum and tutorials floating around that can be used. If you follow them in order and do as they say, nothing should be missed. Public schooling also has a curriculum, naturally. Without direction, you really will miss things. You simply can't say that someone that actually has the resources they need (something these people you're speaking of didn't have, obviously) can't learn efficiently.
"Are your parents expert enough in abstract math to teach that to you? How about world history? How about computer science? Again, when you go beyond the absolute basics, a teacher with experience in a given subject is indispensable."
Really? Do you honestly believe that every person that underwent homeschooling and didn't have tutors didn't learn anything? Please. See, this is the part where these great things called "books" and the "internet" come in handy. There is a plentiful amount of information circulating around, and you don't have to be a teacher or a tutor to get it. This is where the "willful" part comes in. If they actually attempt to do a good job of teaching you useful information by studying the material themselves and explaining it, they can succeed.
"yet somehow you are not calling private schools "trash.""
When I said "public schools," I also meant private schools (even though they're not the same, sorry).
"I have met people who are "self taught," and I am sorry to say that in all but a few cases, they lacked certain insights or failed to understand concepts that seem elementary to someone with a more formal education."
Then obviously they didn't teach themselves what they needed to. This doesn't speak for everyone. The concept of self teaching is actually quite efficient if you have the means to do it, and many times (not all, of course, it depends on the person), faster.
"As for homeschooling, I have no problem with that...if you can afford private tutors in each subject you are learning"
There's no need. Willful parents are all you need. If they don't have time for that, then your parents homeschooling you obviously isn't an option.
If by "stay in school" they mean "stay in public school," then I'm going to have to decline their offer. Public schools are absolute trash. Too many useless classes (as in, something that some people may use, but others won't, due to their career choices) are mandatory, and they put far too much emphasis on worthless grades. It wouldn't be so bad if public schools merely granted you the resources needed to memorize information that will be important to you, provided a good teacher to help you when needed, and provide a useful curriculum. Right now, they're highly inefficient, and you run the risk of failing an entire year simply because you did poorly in a class you won't even need! Education is, of course, important. But until public schooling gets its act together and goes through total reform, I'm going to recommend that people find other means of educating themselves (self teaching, homeschooling).
Sounds like bosses are thin-skinned idiots who support censorship (no surprise there). If they don't care that you're browsing slashdot, they shouldn't care that you're looking at an image.
"I don't mind a company trying to keep their game from being pirated"
You were correct until you came to this. Do you honestly believe that DRM works in the slightest? Regardless of what you say, the correct answer is that it doesn't. Pirates (rightfully so) circumvent it and it is the customers who suffer. These idiotic companies are just wasting their money and degrading their own customers experience. DRM is worthless, and it has no right to exist in the first place. In fact, some people have gotten so used to it that when a milder form of it exists (steam), people are okay with it simply because it isn't as bad as other forms of DRM. Truly sad.
Yeah, it does make it quicker, but I was just saying that it would be completely idiotic if they would expect the defendant to prove that they didn't do what they were being accused of.
"Yeah its almost as is the Defendant was trying to defend himself by proving the Plaintiff wasn't really injured."
Odd, I thought it was "innocent until proven guilty." Shouldn't the plaintiff be the one who proves that the defendant injured them? The defendant shouldn't have to prove that they didn't injure them.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure no one considers communism or any other system perfect. Just because it sounds better that doesn't mean it's perfect or impossible (many versions of it haven't even been tried yet, so there's no way to know). Personally, I'm a supporter of The Venus Project, and it's very tiring for people to assume that it is instantly impossible because 'humans are flawed and born evil'. Is such a system perfect? No. It is likely that nothing is. Is it instantly impossible? I should say not.
Unless you weren't doing that, in which case I apologize.
Slashdot Mirror
"everywhere, they always have turned out that way"
Yes, they have. Did the people stop them? No. I'm not even really a supporter of communism, but claiming it's completely impossible without any real evidence is just idiotic (not that you did).
"The only thing of note are the number of glassy-eyed college students"
I'd refrain from such stereotypical statements, honestly.
"Why, if it weren't for those evil people who think that maybe if they're willing to work more hours in a day or risk something to better their own circumstances or provide something more for their families"
I'm not going to debate about if communism can work, but I'm just going to say that I only meant to point out that when referring to communism, you shouldn't pretend like they have to be similar to China/Russia.
"Write your congressman, let them know how you feel, and vote!"
If I was a mod, I'd mod you funny. That's simply hilarious beyond all words. It is likely that all politicians are merely corporate tools out for power and money, so I don't think that our petty little opinions and votes will do much, especially when the government is able to pass any laws/bills without the consent of the people. Voting in other politicians will just allow for more of the same (this). I fear that it won't get better until the government is completely overthrown (unlikely), but I hope that is not the case.
"Wow. Someone gets it!"
Except the communist part, pretty much. People assume that all communisms must be exactly like China/Russia, and that's simply not true in the slightest.
"this will not prevent terrorists from communicating securel"
I don't care if it did. Eroding the freedom of the people is not worth 'saving' (if you call that saving, since they'd be miserable living under such a tyrannical government anyway) a few lives.
"People like you have destroyed this nation"
This nation was 'destroyed' long ago when it was decided to be a republic and/or follow a capitalistic approach. What you now see is a constant struggle for power and money by corporate tools, and if nothing is done soon, they will surely succeed. Sadly, thanks to the way this system was implemented, the votes of the people do little, and it is mostly in the hands of the government.
If you get rid of privacy or measures that help ensure privacy, it will be all the easier for the government to get rid of opposing voices/abuse their power. As others have said, the average person has absolutely no idea how these things work or what benefits they provide. If this continues, things are only going to get worse and worse.
"there would be far too many for any one person to memorize or search for."
So, the resources you're using to learn this new material aren't enough but a single "experienced" teacher is? If there's so many possible mistakes that they all can't be memorized, I highly doubt that. It can be solved without a teacher.
"Math is not about rote memorization."
Technically, everything is.
"Like I said, it is easy to make those sorts of assumptions and mistakes without realizing it"
Yes, it is. That is why I've said numerous times to double check your work. Make sure it isn't filled with assumptions or mistakes!
"which require the guidance of an experienced teacher."
What I'm saying is that if an experienced teacher knows something, chances are it has been done before. If it is not common knowledge, then you can do something about it. Make it common knowledge so that no one will make this mistake in the future.
"I have seen it happen in CS and math at the very least"
You memorize math formulas for a reason. The mistake is your own fault, and not a problem with self teaching or homeschooling. Double check your work.
In programming, there is an entire world of knowledge available online about which practices you should use and which you should avoid, as well as many, many tutorials. While obviously you will come in contact with bugs and glitches, these are unavoidable to even the most experienced people. Again, double check your work (code).
"For example, it is common for students to assume that they will only ever deal with finite or countable sets"
Apparently, information that tells you not to do so is available online (if it wasn't before, it certainly is now). If the information is not present, make it present. The more alternatives that are available, the better. But, like I said, so much information is already present that I doubt that there are many subjects left uncovered.
"My professor was very good at pointing out where I had made an invalid assumption"
I would think that it would merely require basic logic to figure such things out.
"f someone does not have a teacher who can tell them whether or not their proof is correct, and they wrote something which does not match their book or any proof they find online"
The latter is an unlikely scenario. Still possible, but unlikely.
"which is detrimental to their learning"
Not necessarily. Finding your own solutions can prove highly beneficial to your learning, not only because you'll likely memorize the information better, but because there is a good chance that you will find other things out in the process as well.
These mistakes that you say can't be fixed unless you have a teacher (even then, it would still be possible to find and fix them) are rare, and likely do not detract from the benefits of self teaching or homeschooling. They will have to be applied at some point, and that is when the mistake will become evidence. Finding your own solutions, as I said before, is highly beneficial to the learning process.
"In particular, if you were asked to write a proof there is no step-by-step process for getting the answer, a statement which itself was proved by Turing"
Yes, and in most things, there is no way to check your mistakes but to try out your methods yourself to the best of your ability. Chances are, someone has done what you're trying to do already (unless it's something completely new, but in that case, a teacher likely couldn't even help you). That is where the internet comes in.
Uh, yes, and it is available to most people. Now the public schooling system simply needs to be improved.
"Just because a school is public doesn't necessarily mean that the education is sub par"
I didn't say the education was sub par (in most cases, the teachers actually do know what they're talking about, and the class has a decent curriculum to follow by), I said that it lacked an efficient use of time and lacked choice. Failing an entire year simply because you failed a class that you did not need in your specific career choice does not appeal to me, and it shouldn't to anyone else. A school should be a place where you are given the resources needed to learn, it shouldn't be a place where they force you to take useless classes and focus on worthless grades.
That is what I was getting at. If they fix these things, I will be alright with the schooling system.
"Like the point when they learn what they should learn? It seems quite a catch 22, doesn't it?"
No. Not quite what I meant. I meant that it is likely that they either did not have the resources to teach themselves properly, they didn't have any sort of direction, or perhaps self teaching simply wasn't the smart choice for them (not what I said, I know, but it is what I meant).
"Maybe it's because your selfteaching forgot about a bit of logics."
I wasn't self taught. I was taught in a public school.
"You keep talking about "resources" without really specifying what those "resources" are."
All of what you listed, plus the internet.
"As for having mistakes explained, not all mistakes are the result of poor memorization."
I never said that they were, and I even explained that double checking your work is always a good idea. If you're doing it correctly step by step, you'll be able to double check it.
"When you make a mistake, who is going to explain what went wrong?"
This is where researching your information comes in! Always double check to make sure your information is correct (by using your resources).
"Like I said, I am sure people can learn the basics without an experienced teacher, but there is more to learn than just the basics."
Same as above. Really, if you're not able to learn it, you don't have the right resources. In which case, obviously you're going to make many mistakes and won't get very far.
I'm also not going to pretend that self teaching is for everyone. It really isn't. Many people will find it more difficult than homeschooling or public schooling, so they could always go with those. However, some people really are able to teach themselves what they need, and can do so quickly and efficiently (memorizing information also becomes more simple if you do it by yourself and solve your own problems).
"I said that they will have trouble going beyond the basics, except perhaps in the particular subject their parents are experts in"
Only if they don't have the proper resources!
"Again, who is going to explain why their mistakes are mistakes?"
What? Where are they getting their information from? Are they just making it up? If so, of course they're going to make mistakes. However, if they get their information from reasonably credible resources, they can always double check it. The parents learn as they go, too, remember. The key is willpower.
All you need (or should need) is knowledge. If you have that, you can get things done. Despite popular belief, knowledge doesn't just come from schools. It can come from your parents, books, and even the internet. The problem is, far too many places are too focused on ultimately worthless degrees. A degree by no means ensures that someone knows what they're talking about (it might indicate it more than if they didn't have a degree, but nothing can be certain). What really should matter is what you know, and far too many jobs seem to neglect this fact.
"Sorry, but there are insights that are just not published in books. I used to think that I could teach myself certain subjects, but without the guidance of someone with years of experience, I missed things, even after reading every word of multiple textbooks. Getting by without a good teacher is not something I would expect anyone to be able to do, except for the absolute basics of a given topic."
This is why you need direction. No, this doesn't come from someone with "years of experience," it can come from just about any source. There's all kinds of curriculum and tutorials floating around that can be used. If you follow them in order and do as they say, nothing should be missed. Public schooling also has a curriculum, naturally. Without direction, you really will miss things. You simply can't say that someone that actually has the resources they need (something these people you're speaking of didn't have, obviously) can't learn efficiently.
"Are your parents expert enough in abstract math to teach that to you? How about world history? How about computer science? Again, when you go beyond the absolute basics, a teacher with experience in a given subject is indispensable."
Really? Do you honestly believe that every person that underwent homeschooling and didn't have tutors didn't learn anything? Please. See, this is the part where these great things called "books" and the "internet" come in handy. There is a plentiful amount of information circulating around, and you don't have to be a teacher or a tutor to get it. This is where the "willful" part comes in. If they actually attempt to do a good job of teaching you useful information by studying the material themselves and explaining it, they can succeed.
"yet somehow you are not calling private schools "trash.""
When I said "public schools," I also meant private schools (even though they're not the same, sorry).
"I have met people who are "self taught," and I am sorry to say that in all but a few cases, they lacked certain insights or failed to understand concepts that seem elementary to someone with a more formal education."
Then obviously they didn't teach themselves what they needed to. This doesn't speak for everyone. The concept of self teaching is actually quite efficient if you have the means to do it, and many times (not all, of course, it depends on the person), faster.
"As for homeschooling, I have no problem with that...if you can afford private tutors in each subject you are learning"
There's no need. Willful parents are all you need. If they don't have time for that, then your parents homeschooling you obviously isn't an option.
If by "stay in school" they mean "stay in public school," then I'm going to have to decline their offer. Public schools are absolute trash. Too many useless classes (as in, something that some people may use, but others won't, due to their career choices) are mandatory, and they put far too much emphasis on worthless grades. It wouldn't be so bad if public schools merely granted you the resources needed to memorize information that will be important to you, provided a good teacher to help you when needed, and provide a useful curriculum. Right now, they're highly inefficient, and you run the risk of failing an entire year simply because you did poorly in a class you won't even need! Education is, of course, important. But until public schooling gets its act together and goes through total reform, I'm going to recommend that people find other means of educating themselves (self teaching, homeschooling).
Sounds like bosses are thin-skinned idiots who support censorship (no surprise there). If they don't care that you're browsing slashdot, they shouldn't care that you're looking at an image.
"I don't mind a company trying to keep their game from being pirated"
You were correct until you came to this. Do you honestly believe that DRM works in the slightest? Regardless of what you say, the correct answer is that it doesn't. Pirates (rightfully so) circumvent it and it is the customers who suffer. These idiotic companies are just wasting their money and degrading their own customers experience. DRM is worthless, and it has no right to exist in the first place. In fact, some people have gotten so used to it that when a milder form of it exists (steam), people are okay with it simply because it isn't as bad as other forms of DRM. Truly sad.
The government can rarely be trusted to write fair laws in the first place (as seen with the RIAA/MPAA, they're corporate tools).
Yeah, it does make it quicker, but I was just saying that it would be completely idiotic if they would expect the defendant to prove that they didn't do what they were being accused of.
"Yeah its almost as is the Defendant was trying to defend himself by proving the Plaintiff wasn't really injured."
Odd, I thought it was "innocent until proven guilty." Shouldn't the plaintiff be the one who proves that the defendant injured them? The defendant shouldn't have to prove that they didn't injure them.
Oh, and: "Just a small note on utopias"
Yeah, I'm pretty sure no one considers communism or any other system perfect. Just because it sounds better that doesn't mean it's perfect or impossible (many versions of it haven't even been tried yet, so there's no way to know). Personally, I'm a supporter of The Venus Project, and it's very tiring for people to assume that it is instantly impossible because 'humans are flawed and born evil'. Is such a system perfect? No. It is likely that nothing is. Is it instantly impossible? I should say not.
Unless you weren't doing that, in which case I apologize.