As far as I see, their web-page has not changed since it was first mentioned at/. ( Read the article). So, "soon" is as relative as a Yopy delivery date. echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
As a user, I might not care. I want good software. I like Free Software for well discussed reasons (see gnu.org), but I wont get into that now.
Now, consider being a developer. I want to write applications which need more power than a Palm offers me. Alternatives I can buy: devices with Epoc or Windows CE. Let's concentrate on Windows.
Development tools for Windows CE are, hm, not cheap, it's costly to get information about the system, the API is different to everything I know from before. This even counts for Windows for Desktop developers, to a certain degree.
I can use PersonalJava.
This might work, but there might be application-specific reasons for not using Java.
Alternative: I can put Linux on my iPAQ. Whow, what opportunities does that offer: I can use
plain X.
I can use
PocketLinux with Microwindows and Java. I can use embedded Qt.
Every of these possibilities has counterparts on Desktops. I have access to documentation. I can use tools I know from before. So it's easier to write applications.
Wait a minute. Applications. Wasn't that the user cares about?
I just bought me an iPAQ, and I'm looking forward to putting Linux on it. This Windows CE stuff is so closed, I can't even sync the build-in calendars with my Linux-system (why use a standard format, when you can use outlook). The Palm is much more open here.
To put it very easy:
Linux on iPAQ = Openness of PalmOS + Power of a "Windows powered" device.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
Compare this to the higher power bills, risks of fans dying [...] and I feel it's probably wise to shut off the computer when you're not using it.
Plus some thoughts about the environment, perhaps. Why should a machine consume power when nobody is using it?
Of course, that's discretion. Do you turn off the computer when you leave the office for lunch? Nah. For the weekend? For sure. Overnight? I do.
Obviously, we both make the implicit assumption that we talk about personal computers, not servers:-)
I turned off my linux box each night previously, but now I'm using an IBM netstation with low power consumption, and I have to admit that I just turn it off for week-ends... after all, I turn off the CRT.
Looking at the average norwegian who doesn't seem to know that there exist switches for light in bathrooms e.g., my net station should not contribute to the bills so much:-)
Of course, going through the labs and seing all computers and monitors being turned on, you start thinking about how much power could be saved (yes, I know about power management at CRT's but a) there are anyway always some NT-boxes blinking with there "press ctrl-alt-del to login" (or whatever) the whole night, and b) even stand-by consumes power...)
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
I didn't want to blame you. I might have gotten a little bit too sensitive in these days. As said, I nearly awaited a comment like yours... it seems to become usual to bash RMS and FSF for them defending their position.
It's the whole Free Software vs. Open Software stuff. You might prefer the BSD-style, but it's the Free Software folks right to stand in for their believes.
I'm Sorry if you felt offended.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
AFAICS they all can be sublicensed under GPL, which you do the moment you use it in a GPL'd work.
What do you mean by sublicensed? As far as I see, each compatible license claims its license to be left intact, so a X11 software remains X11, but is nevertheless compatible with GPL.
Of course, you might consider it being trivial that a compatible license is, um, compatible (read: permits a kind of freedom in terms of the FSF).
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
Well, at least there's a Treasurer:-) No, seriously: It's a foundation, not a membership organization. RMS is for sure the most prominent evangelist, and I think it's OK to let charismatic people like him to the PR job, so that others can do the important job to keep the (GNU) wheels turning. Anyway, it was a kind of rhetoric, "RMS equals FSF" might hold quite long, but there are in fact others, too.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
You just have to read the/.-article, and you know there will be RMS-bashing inside. And always there has to be a cleaning woman trying to get the FUD out of the world. Now it's my turn:
Sorry to point this out, but to RMS, the only license that is compatible with the GPL is the GPL.
That's simply wrong. I don't think RMS view differs substantially from the FSF view. You could know about compatible licenses by just visiting the FSF-site and read the list of
GPL compatible licenses. Either you didn't, or you are spreading FUD although you know better.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
Although in europe, we generally have a better privacy protection than in the US, it sometimes turns out that the government and the police loke at themselves as standing outside this strict laws.
In norway, the social democrats, being in the government after World War II, made great use of internal intelligence in order to keep an eye on people with different political opinion. This was in no way allowed by norwegian law, and there were big discussions when it became known to the public in the mid nineties.
In germany, social democrats in the eighties build up the system of "berufsverbote", which meant that people, who acted e.g. as candidates for local councils for a legal party, were not allowed to work in the public sector.
In both times, the power of social democratic government was used against leftists. Today, there is a social democratic government in norway. I'm not amused about the prospect that this time they abuse their power to monitor the movements of every neticen.
Having moved to norway some months ago, I dislike the norwegian behavior very much, as I did in the deCSS-case. Hopefully, ecocrime will not get through.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
What would you like to have? xmms started as a winamp-clone, and with its plugin-architecture it's really getting a standard media player for me. At first, "x multimedia system" sounded a bit hi-flying to me, but with support for mp3-streams, mpeg, Ogg Vorbis, and, last not least, audio CD, it got my standard media player.
Of course, there is some work to be done, and there is ongoing work. You can't blame the developers for not supporting MS media, though, remember MS patents:-( I'm only using xmms, xanim and realplayer (getting real integrated into an xmms-plugin would be fun, think you get rid of the ugly Real UI:-), that's mostly all I need of media playing.
Of course, DVD's have to be playable under Linux! But that's a different story.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
Besides mySQL (?), another example is the pseudo open-source license of Motif (see RMS letter on this).
As far as I understand, your hypothetical software S is not that hypothetical. Isn't that the whole kde-debian conflict is all about? But as the author is in charge of which license to apply, can't this be solved by allowing the 50 files in your example to be linked together with the BSD/commercial parts? How would you GPL a windows program?
Wether it is good idea to ground GPL software on non-GPL software is a different story. I don't blame the kde-folks doing so (the problem is, following Debian, that they mixed up incompatible licenses). That's one reason for projects like Gnome and harmony.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
In my opinion, actually, this "feature" of the GPL goes against the spirit of the free software/open source movement.
That's true. But the GPL is not the license of the open source movement, but the one of the free software movement. As stated at other places in this discussion, it's a political license and should be regarded like that.
It seems to me sometimes that people regard the GPL as being something holy and untouchable, but I believe that given the way in which the economy is changing and so on, such things should be critically reviewed on a regular basis.
Well, it's not holy in a sense that it's something like god's word. Insisting on it means insisting on the way we believe software should be produced (may be different stuff as software, too, but that's a different and complicated discussion).
In fact, we don't take the way in which the economy is changing as given, but for something which is manmade. Using the GPL is trying to change this way, whereas using BSD is trying to find a niche in a way determined by others. It's up to everyone to choose.
For me, Free Software is more (and more important) than total world domination.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
And besides the "Palm-plus-expansion-board"-stuff from uclinux, there's the LART as a research project and the upcoming Yopy (see below).
It may only be the first PDA being shipped with Linux. So let's forgive the misleading emphasis:-) But they definitely have to do something about the "system requirements" for the Desktop Partner. vtech.com states: "Microsoft Windows® 95 or Windows® NT Workstation":-( But netcraft says their webserver is running apache on BSD:-)
On the plus side: 8 MB of SDRAM, plus 2 MB flash for operating system and applications for about $179 against $157 for the Palm IIe with it's 2MB (using http://computers.cnet.com/ list prices, since I haven't seen the Helio being shipped in europe (anyone?)).
But, as stated in another comment, they have to go a long run with Palm being something like a de facto standard (besides the "Windows powered" stuff:-). And, don't forget the Samsungs studies for a "hi end" GNU/Linux-powered PDA: The Yopy. 32MB RAM, 32MB(64MB) Flash Memory and a 206MHz ARM RISC 32bit Microprocessor.
So, I'm not that convinced that "The Helio may make a break for the running of the PDA-of-choice-for-Linux-geeks yet".
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
Anyway, I used to run Win NT on VMware (not the latest version) in my last job. We had a license for Win Maple, but not for Linux, and sometimes I had to write some Maple stuff for teaching. Worked fine, and I certainly tried some other apps, and besides sound everything worked fine (haven't tried to fix that). When I have to use a Windows app, I like it to run in a X-Window, so I still can use my preferred system.
I will probably have to use the W98 partition of my current notebook under VMware in my new job, too. But I definitely would prefer using Wine to run them. Tried it recently again, and they did a great job since last. So, if the Win-apps you have to use run with Wine, forget about VMware, if not, it's a good 2nd choice.
Slashdot Mirror
As far as I see, their web-page has not changed since it was first mentioned at /. ( Read the article). So, "soon" is as relative as a Yopy delivery date.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
As a user, I might not care. I want good software. I like Free Software for well discussed reasons (see gnu.org), but I wont get into that now.
Now, consider being a developer. I want to write applications which need more power than a Palm offers me. Alternatives I can buy: devices with Epoc or Windows CE. Let's concentrate on Windows.
Development tools for Windows CE are, hm, not cheap, it's costly to get information about the system, the API is different to everything I know from before. This even counts for Windows for Desktop developers, to a certain degree.
I can use PersonalJava. This might work, but there might be application-specific reasons for not using Java.
Alternative: I can put Linux on my iPAQ. Whow, what opportunities does that offer: I can use plain X. I can use PocketLinux with Microwindows and Java. I can use embedded Qt.
Every of these possibilities has counterparts on Desktops. I have access to documentation. I can use tools I know from before. So it's easier to write applications.
Wait a minute. Applications. Wasn't that the user cares about?
I just bought me an iPAQ, and I'm looking forward to putting Linux on it. This Windows CE stuff is so closed, I can't even sync the build-in calendars with my Linux-system (why use a standard format, when you can use outlook). The Palm is much more open here.
To put it very easy: Linux on iPAQ = Openness of PalmOS + Power of a "Windows powered" device.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
Compare this to the higher power bills, risks of fans dying [...] and I feel it's probably wise to shut off the computer when you're not using it.
Plus some thoughts about the environment, perhaps. Why should a machine consume power when nobody is using it?
Of course, that's discretion. Do you turn off the computer when you leave the office for lunch? Nah. For the weekend? For sure. Overnight? I do.
Obviously, we both make the implicit assumption that we talk about personal computers, not servers:-)
I turned off my linux box each night previously, but now I'm using an IBM netstation with low power consumption, and I have to admit that I just turn it off for week-ends... after all, I turn off the CRT.
Looking at the average norwegian who doesn't seem to know that there exist switches for light in bathrooms e.g., my net station should not contribute to the bills so much:-)
Of course, going through the labs and seing all computers and monitors being turned on, you start thinking about how much power could be saved (yes, I know about power management at CRT's but a) there are anyway always some NT-boxes blinking with there "press ctrl-alt-del to login" (or whatever) the whole night, and b) even stand-by consumes power...)
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
I didn't want to blame you. I might have gotten a little bit too sensitive in these days. As said, I nearly awaited a comment like yours... it seems to become usual to bash RMS and FSF for them defending their position.
It's the whole Free Software vs. Open Software stuff. You might prefer the BSD-style, but it's the Free Software folks right to stand in for their believes.
I'm Sorry if you felt offended.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
AFAICS they all can be sublicensed under GPL, which you do the moment you use it in a GPL'd work.
What do you mean by sublicensed? As far as I see, each compatible license claims its license to be left intact, so a X11 software remains X11, but is nevertheless compatible with GPL.
Of course, you might consider it being trivial that a compatible license is, um, compatible (read: permits a kind of freedom in terms of the FSF).
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
RMS is the FSF (and vice versa).
Well, at least there's a Treasurer:-) No, seriously: It's a foundation, not a membership organization. RMS is for sure the most prominent evangelist, and I think it's OK to let charismatic people like him to the PR job, so that others can do the important job to keep the (GNU) wheels turning. Anyway, it was a kind of rhetoric, "RMS equals FSF" might hold quite long, but there are in fact others, too.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
You just have to read the /.-article, and you know there will be RMS-bashing inside. And always there has to be a cleaning woman trying to get the FUD out of the world. Now it's my turn:
Sorry to point this out, but to RMS, the only license that is compatible with the GPL is the GPL.
That's simply wrong. I don't think RMS view differs substantially from the FSF view. You could know about compatible licenses by just visiting the FSF-site and read the list of GPL compatible licenses. Either you didn't, or you are spreading FUD although you know better.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
Although in europe, we generally have a better privacy protection than in the US, it sometimes turns out that the government and the police loke at themselves as standing outside this strict laws.
In norway, the social democrats, being in the government after World War II, made great use of internal intelligence in order to keep an eye on people with different political opinion. This was in no way allowed by norwegian law, and there were big discussions when it became known to the public in the mid nineties.
In germany, social democrats in the eighties build up the system of "berufsverbote", which meant that people, who acted e.g. as candidates for local councils for a legal party, were not allowed to work in the public sector.In both times, the power of social democratic government was used against leftists. Today, there is a social democratic government in norway. I'm not amused about the prospect that this time they abuse their power to monitor the movements of every neticen.
Having moved to norway some months ago, I dislike the norwegian behavior very much, as I did in the deCSS-case. Hopefully, ecocrime will not get through.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
> now if only there was a decent media player....
What would you like to have? xmms started as a winamp-clone, and with its plugin-architecture it's really getting a standard media player for me. At first, "x multimedia system" sounded a bit hi-flying to me, but with support for mp3-streams, mpeg, Ogg Vorbis, and, last not least, audio CD, it got my standard media player.
Of course, there is some work to be done, and there is ongoing work. You can't blame the developers for not supporting MS media, though, remember MS patents:-( I'm only using xmms, xanim and realplayer (getting real integrated into an xmms-plugin would be fun, think you get rid of the ugly Real UI:-), that's mostly all I need of media playing.
Of course, DVD's have to be playable under Linux! But that's a different story.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
3) The I Can't Think Of One Example:
Besides mySQL (?), another example is the pseudo open-source license of Motif (see RMS letter on this).
As far as I understand, your hypothetical software S is not that hypothetical. Isn't that the whole kde-debian conflict is all about? But as the author is in charge of which license to apply, can't this be solved by allowing the 50 files in your example to be linked together with the BSD/commercial parts? How would you GPL a windows program?
Wether it is good idea to ground GPL software on non-GPL software is a different story. I don't blame the kde-folks doing so (the problem is, following Debian, that they mixed up incompatible licenses). That's one reason for projects like Gnome and harmony.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
In my opinion, actually, this "feature" of the GPL goes against the spirit of the free software/open source movement.
That's true. But the GPL is not the license of the open source movement, but the one of the free software movement. As stated at other places in this discussion, it's a political license and should be regarded like that.
It seems to me sometimes that people regard the GPL as being something holy and untouchable, but I believe that given the way in which the economy is changing and so on, such things should be critically reviewed on a regular basis.
Well, it's not holy in a sense that it's something like god's word. Insisting on it means insisting on the way we believe software should be produced (may be different stuff as software, too, but that's a different and complicated discussion).
In fact, we don't take the way in which the economy is changing as given, but for something which is manmade. Using the GPL is trying to change this way, whereas using BSD is trying to find a niche in a way determined by others. It's up to everyone to choose.
For me, Free Software is more (and more important) than total world domination.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
And besides the "Palm-plus-expansion-board"-stuff from uclinux, there's the LART as a research project and the upcoming Yopy (see below).
It may only be the first PDA being shipped with Linux. So let's forgive the misleading emphasis:-) But they definitely have to do something about the "system requirements" for the Desktop Partner. vtech.com states: "Microsoft Windows® 95 or Windows® NT Workstation" :-( But netcraft says their webserver is running apache on BSD:-)
On the plus side: 8 MB of SDRAM, plus 2 MB flash for operating system and applications for about $179 against $157 for the Palm IIe with it's 2MB (using http://computers.cnet.com/ list prices, since I haven't seen the Helio being shipped in europe (anyone?)).
But, as stated in another comment, they have to go a long run with Palm being something like a de facto standard (besides the "Windows powered" stuff:-). And, don't forget the Samsungs studies for a "hi end" GNU/Linux-powered PDA: The Yopy. 32MB RAM, 32MB(64MB) Flash Memory and a 206MHz ARM RISC 32bit Microprocessor.
So, I'm not that convinced that "The Helio may make a break for the running of the PDA-of-choice-for-Linux-geeks yet".
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
Not just slightly offtopic;-)
Anyway, I used to run Win NT on VMware (not the latest version) in my last job. We had a license for Win Maple, but not for Linux, and sometimes I had to write some Maple stuff for teaching. Worked fine, and I certainly tried some other apps, and besides sound everything worked fine (haven't tried to fix that). When I have to use a Windows app, I like it to run in a X-Window, so I still can use my preferred system.
I will probably have to use the W98 partition of my current notebook under VMware in my new job, too. But I definitely would prefer using Wine to run them. Tried it recently again, and they did a great job since last. So, if the Win-apps you have to use run with Wine, forget about VMware, if not, it's a good 2nd choice.
try http://www.winehq.com/
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/