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Scanning The Landscape Of Palmtop GUIs
There are several Linux-based palmtop OSes emerging, and I would like to know what people are expecting from a non-WinCE, non-PalmOS handheld. I have put together minature reviews of three current offerings that I was able to test on my iPaq for comparison.
The TrollTech Qt
Palmtop Environment
QPE was demoed recetly at Comdex, and in my opinion is the best-looking hand-held Open Source OS so far, even though it is merely a demo of Embedded QT and has not been released as a product. On the iPaq; instead, it installs a new /usr filesystem on top of handhelds.org linux distro.
I think there are a number of advantages to using Embedded QT rather than an X windows + toolkit solution. One, it does not use X, but writes directly to the frame buffer instead, which makes it lighter than X-based solutions, and provides the capability to do things X cannot -- like anti-aliasing and alpha compositing. [Ed. Note: See also recent Slashdot stories on just such developments.]Another nice (future) feature might be cleartype-rendering for the final output, to improve sharpness for all display elements (not just text). The X Window system's most useful feature is remote display. QPE also includes support for remote display -- it can draw to a VNC framebuffer as well as the Linux framebuffer.
Another advantage to QPE is that it uses the popular QT toolkit, making porting applications from KDE relatively easy, and easing cross-platform development (QT also runs on Windows and other non-unix OSes). Addtionally, QT and QPE are both very space-efficient, all handheld-type applications included. The libraries, framebuffer driver, etc. fit into a 3.7MB .tgz file for the iPaq (mirror). If anyone knows of an Embedded GTK project, please post a link below.
One of the most compelling features of QPE is the variety of input methods it allows. It includes five input methods: pickboard, handwriting, keyboard, opti (modified keyboard), and unicode (apparently understands Cherokee out of the box). Every method includes -- this is the really cool part -- dictionary look-ahead. If you type out part of a word, a ticker presents a list of likely candidates. You simply tap on one to erase the partial you already typed and insert the entire word in its place. This is, I think, its best feature, and one that other environments would do well to copy. it also includes support for "right-clicking" -- tap and hold -- to bring up context menus, set flags in minesweeper, etc.
And though perhaps unpolished, QPE is anything but incomplete: it includes 14 applications -- address book, games, etc. -- plus several applets (like a slider to set backlight brightness and a load monitor) and some silly stuff, like a Tux plush-doll simulator (a shaped window with Tux in it). It also includes an HTML-based help browser. And, of course, it's both Open Source and Free Software.
For all of its niceness, QPE does have some cons as well. A lot of them are related to the fact that QPE is a demo, not a released product. For instance, there's no way to suspend the iPaq. It must be shut off, which requires re-calibrating the display each time. There's a menu option for exiting QPE, but it does not also shut down Linux, so you have to power off the running OS, which can't be good. Crashing applications can bring down the whole GUI. For instance, playing a bad MPEG video in the MPEG player hangs the whole UI. I can restart it using the serial-port console, but that's not really a solution. It currently does not have working audio, which is a shame, because the MPEG player also plays MP3s.
Handhelds.org provides the father of all iPaq linux distros (which is also a required base install for QPE). It runs TinyX, written by Jim Gettys. It's really kind of minimalist and unintegrated. However, it's linux, it's free, and Compaq and the iPaq team should be congratulated for providing Linux support on the iPaq. Compaq also provides some other benefits, such as you ability to compile apps using their Skiff Cluster -- making development much easier, as there's no space for a compiler on 16MB of flash. The UI for the Handhelds distro is pretty ghastly -- X + TWM + xterm + TWM menus for few installed apps and administrative tasks, such as changing brightness of backlight.
TWM and xterm are quite tedious to use with a stylus. They're also pretty unattractive. It includes a lot of utilities and programs, but very few GUI apps, which is what you need on a handheld. The three major apps are "scribble" for handwriting recognition, a qwerty keyboard, and a statically-linked GTK mp3 player (note: menus don't work well with stylus). And Xterm makes four, if you want to bother counting it.
The two input methods are strange to use -- you have to get the input focus set just right, and be careful to not obscure the scribble or keyboard app with the target app. In contrast, WinCE and QPE both resize the display area available for apps when the input methods are invoked, and reserve space at the bottom of the screen for the input handler.
Again, the major thing about the handhelds.org Linux distro is that it exists; it's not really meant to be a useful PDA environment. However, it does illustrate the numerous reasons why an unmodified desktop GUI does not belong on a handheld.
PocketLinux is an interesting beast. It is linux-based, but the GUI and all of its apps run in Kaffe and use XML for interface definition and other data storage. The GUI is themeable, and PocketLinux included several themes. I actually didn't care for any of them. Perhaps they should look at SkinLF, a skin engine for Java/Swing.
They have certainly achieved Buzzword compliance with the use of Java + XML. The downside is, it's slooooow. The UI is simply not very responsive, and the iPaq is the most muscular of the current handhelds. The upside is, it's portable. And since it's Java, I imagine it's theoretically possible to beam apps and data to other PocketLinux devices, even if they use a different processor. That's not an insignificant advantage. Plus, because all apps run in the Java VM, it's likely to be stable (assuming the VM is) thanks to the garbage collection, lack of pointers, etc. that Java provides. Plus, the PocketLinux environment can be used to develop (both compile and test) apps off-unit without having to resort to using a special cross-compiler setup and ftping or syncing builds of apps to just see if they run.
Like QPE, it uses the framebuffer; but it does not include any remote display functionality. I'm not certain that's really an issue with a handheld, anyway -- although it might be nice to open your handheld display on your desktop PC while it's in its cradle so that you can use a mouse and a keyboard to more quickly use the UI to manage the device.
The major downfalls of PocketLinux are its slowness and its clunky UI. It's better than xterm, but not as nice as either QPE or WinCE. Otherwise, it's in the same vein as QPE -- includes all the usual suspects as far as apps go, and an MPEG player to boot.
Thoughts -- I am interested in what you all are looking for in a handheld GUI. Please post! I'm looking for a number of things:
- Flexible, easy to use "sync" feature. This would preclude ActiveSync, as it does not work (at all, either USB or serial) on my iPAQ.
- Standard file formats. None of the Linux handhelds options I've discussed here provide a way to "sync" data to another computer, but when they do, a standard resource file format would be nice.
- Easy to use interface. This means, no need to type out words to start apps (or to use most apps). A "start menu" is the best thing going in the launcher department that I've seen, and the use of things like context menus and QPE's dictionary lookahead make using a stylus easier.
- Free Software.
- I actually spent a couple of months getting to know WinCE before I wiped it, and I never did really care for it. It does include Microsoft Reader, though. All handheld environments should include a good, standard document reader. I reccommend PDF rather than MS Reader or any other proprietary format, because it's an open spec and tools to create and view it are available as free software. It also supports sophisticated layout and compression and delivery of all document elements as one file -- something XML and HTML cannot do.
- Variety of working, non-intrusive input methods. QPE's dictionary is great. WinCE and QPE both resize apps to reserve an area for the input method at the bottom of the screen. This is much better than handhelds.org's TWM focus-game method.
- Standard app toolkit. There's not a lot of space on handhelds, but handhelds need a rich GUI toolkit to be useful and provide a way to write lightweight apps. Palm does this well, even though it is a very limited platform. I can't install GTK and QT and whatever, because there's not a lot of space. I use Gnome on my desktops and laptop, and program for GTK, but am very happy with the slim, trim QT/Embedded used in QPE. PocketLinux sort of half-wins. Demerits for slowness and ugly themes. Handhelds' X+TWM+Xterm wins in the oops-thought-this-was-a-desktop category. WinCE does a moderate job; It looks mostly like windows, but different enough to be mildly strange at the beginning. And, of course, Media Player is totally different. What is it with media players these days? Do they all have to be ugly and slow?
- Speed. Handhelds.org and QPE win here. PocketLinux, of course, does not.
- Support for common features: syncing, serial/ppp/ethernet/other connectivity setup, etc. No one does this yet.
- Apps. Including games. MPEG video player optional. Really. Mp3 player would be cool. Doc reader a requirement.
- Attractive interface. I don't mean gaudy. I mean, easy to look at. Microsoft's cleartype for text does make a difference. QPE's anti-aliasing and alpha-compositing both make a difference in this area. Handhelds.org gets no points here. QPE wins, and PocketLinux, while themeable, is somewhat cluttered and awkward to use.
Note: You may also be interested in reading this piece on PocketLinux and reading more about the iPAQ.
1010011010 is really a hax0r devil! Convert it to decimal! I'm a newbie!
Agenda Computing uses Linux 2.4.0-test, X11, and the lesser-known FLTK, or "Fast Light Toolkit" (backronym), which is a C++ OO framework. Very cool.
How could you not get active sync to work? It's the easiest sync program I've ever used. Also, I think nothing can touch a stright IPAQ in functionality. The thing does everything. It even has an IRC, Windows Terminal Server Client, and an SSH client you can get for it. Toss in a Sierra Aircard and you have mobile platform to do nearly anything you could want. Palm is so dead... and I can say this cause I have had two palms and a PDQ smartphone and I dislike them all. The ipaq is superior in every way... even handwriting recoginition... (For those of you who don't have it get the microsoft transcriber and your life will be so much easier) Linux for handhelds will be cool... but it will be a long time before it is usable.
While not all of the apps follow a consistent license, I've found palmopensource.com to have quite a few useful links. I ran across it a while back when searching palmos sites.
I disagree.
When my second son was born, I borrowed a digital camera from work to take pictures of Mom and the kid. (He's three now, BTW.) I took all sorts of pictures of Mom, of Eric, and how happy they were. I returned the camera, waiting for person who controlled it to pull the images for me. It was taken out and dropped. I have no pictures from my 2nd child's birth.
I dropped my Visor a few months ago. The screen broke. I took it home, sync'd it, and sent it in to get fixed. It worked to be sync'd.
I disagree with the need for PDA hard drives. Strongly.
While you bring up points that might have been a problem, I really don't they they are. That drive in my camera can run all day long, and since we're already charging our palms on the cradle, plus the drive doesn't take power when sleeping.
Furthermore, I think the drive is plenty dependable. I beat my camera to hell, drop it, turn it on and off,etc. While I don't recommend that behaviour, my drive stood up to it just fine
It's also MUCH cheaper. I don't see any flash ram in the 300MB range for only $600. (Probably less now, I bought my drive when it was brand new)
On top of all that, I could swap application sets without needing a computer. I could put a bunch of mpegs and an mpeg player on one drive, but swap to another drive when I wanted to see my travel log, expenses, whatever else I use. (More likely I'd have one drive full of metal MP3s and another full of stuff my girlfriend would like)
If you think drives aren't coming to the plam top, I think you're the one whose mistaken. They are just too sexy to ignore.
(And what did that have to do with interfaces?)
Once we have an HD in place, the contraints will be loosened and a more realistic interface will be possible, rendering a lot of this squeezing effort unnecessary. (I thought that would obviously be what I meant, but re-reading it, I thought I should clarify)
The technical demonstration included reflowable ink text ( which could be italicized, made bold, highlighted or searched), shape recognition, sketch ink, gesture recognition, and markup recognition. There was very little there that Newton didn't do first, but since Newton is gone I'm glad somebody has picked up the ball and is running with it.
You can find Bill's speech here. (Search for the word "tablet")
As a sample, here's Microsoft's Bert Keely describing ink text as if Microsoft invented it:
-Glen "NewtPaint" Raphael
I play Nerd-Folk!
If screen space is important, then color should be important. Color (especially when implemented in a drawing vs. bitmap environment) enables your display to display more information in the same screen size with only a marginal increase in RAM usage as well as get more compact layouts on the screen since you don't necessarily need to use negative or white space to differentiate sections.
I agree that if color is done poorly, it only increases overhead, but if thought is put into it allows for a greater amount if information to be more intelligently displayed than a monochrome display.
ok
SOC has become a bit of hot topic in the EDA field at the moment with synthesizable cores leading the way.
System On a Chip is the way to go as you can build your chip with everything onboard
ARM got a headstart with this and are makeing good old MOT pay
the new palm is powered by Intel® XScale(TM) Microarchitecture (which is STRONG ARM-you are fooling no one intel) basicaly they took over from digital the one good thing they did in the past year !
HURD cant load on ARM arch beacuse you need to write a new linker for the mach object format
this is why old darwin cant be ported to ARM
why would anyone use throw away batteries ?
they are such a pain the only pro is outwayed by the cons !
ARM linux needs to sort out the ACPI and the font scaleing/antialiasing AND contrast ajustment (damn it what do you think that is on the Ipac )
I have high hopes for L4 because that runs on ARM/MOT/I386 I hope hurd drops mach and converts to this !!!
regards
john jones
(a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
Whether PDF is good or not for a handheld (I think it's NOT), it's been done. I've used the converter and the reader, and it's all really lame. I was not impressed. But, if you think of all of the text documents in PDF, it's not so bad.
http://www.creativepro.com/story/news/3908.html
Thanks for mentioning this... fellow Squeakers, untie! ;-)
Squeak was Apple's open source Smalltalk before it was Disney's. It's not really fair to say it's Disney's, since the licensing still refers back to Apple. The license is actually quite liberal, even more so than BSD. GPL aficionados won't like that... too bad.
Perhaps you haven't been keeping up-to-date on Squeak, since the imminent next release is supposed to be event-based, no longer polling. Squeak already contains some dandy pen-input components and some folks are using palm-top devices with it routinely.
There are working Linux ports of Squeak already, sure, but the sensible thing to do on a palm-top device is just run it on bare hardware. It's already been ported to the various CE-running hardware architectures and a couple of others.
Apps, like a to-do list, web-browser, email, IRC, telnet, even text-to-speech, and so on also already exist in the Squeak base image. If you need more, Squeak is fun and relatively easy to program.
URL: http://www.squeak.org/
This is an insightful & informative response. Once Warwick gets his 5 points, please moderate me down:-)
Samawi
The whole right click thing on a palmtop could be dangerous. Imagine you're playing minesweeper, and you're giddy at the prospect of winning... you try to right click (tap and hold) a box, but in your jubliation you don't hold long enough to register as a tap and hold... so it unleashes the bomb you knew was underneath. I don't trust it farther than I can throw it.
______
everyone was born right-handed, only the greatest overcome it.
______
everyone was born right-handed, only the greatest overcome it.
http://leftorium.net
IBM micro-drives work in an iPaq, under Linux or otherwise. The battery life is not so hot as I understand it. If you are really interested read the mailing list archives on handhelds.org
I fully agree with you here. I've tried a Palm V after using an HP100LX/HP200LX for years but not having a keyboard is too much of a disadvantage for me.
I now own a Nokia 9110 Communicator, a smart phone with a keyboard (even tinier than the HP), but I dread the day when the keyboard devices will disappear from the market. Each input method has it's advantages, but I fear that kbd may disappear mainly because they aren't fashionable anymore.
Regards,
Xenna
Point taken, however in the experience I've had playing around with a Palm connected to the 'net, I was.. well.. rather underwealmed. Because of the screen size, surfing with the Palm is akin to looking at a mural a postage stamp square at a time.
In reality, I think the differences in my experiences has more to do with screen size, and CPU power then application availability, two things which the palm doesn't have much of. With a 320x480 screen, and a 162 mhz StrongARM, you can simply provide a richer experience to the user.
What it all comes down to, though, is what tool do you find works the best for you.
...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
I got one of these and I think it is a great device if you consider it as an email pager. The messaging capabilities are great but the web browser is barely usable because it is too slow and often locks. I think they did a great job at the user interface which allows you to navigate with just one hand (so you can read your emails and drive at the same time!:) thanks to the nifty thumbwheel. Also the keyboard is really pleasant to use and I find it much faster to type than graffiti or any other forms of handwriting. The 'palm like' capabilities such as Memopad and Todos are very limited, I'd stick to the palm for that.
This kind of comment is just stupid. Of course Troll Tech want to make money. Of course they want to dominate the handheld market. They're a *company* they have to pay their staff, and they want to fulfil their obligations to their shareholders.
Yes they are 'using' the open source community, but the open source community want to be 'used'.
If nobody 'used' the open source community, the open source community wouldn't exist.
If you don't want a PDA running QTe, don't f**king buy one, and if you don't like Trolltech's corporate ethics, then don't f**king use their products, but theyre a lot less evil than other software companies, and have done so much to boost the popularity, usability, portability and consistency of linux software that their contribution should not be ignored, much less denigrated by people like you.
You probably think that xterm+twm+non-integrated handwriting recognition is the 'right' way to develop a Palm-based environment. All that stuff is really 'free', right?
The fact that it's just shit for real world usage is completely unimportant, right? Its open source, and thats all that matters.. If open source was the 'one true path' to successful software development, then why is the only currently useful Linux-based PDA environment from Trolltech?
You don't like it? You do better. Thats what open source is all about, isn't it?
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
Well, I know it's a general assumption that people want to have the same interface with everything, but don't they know how little that kind of thing works? Icons can only be drawn so small, after all.
Preferably, a handheld should behave more like a notepad or scratch paper...or maybe I shouldn't talk about these things, after all, I personally prefer desktop machines.
Here's two places to go relearn handheld history:
Sony Magic Link website for one of the most popular hardware platforms for Magic Cap
Yahoo Magic Cap operating system category
Personally, I think the best platform is still Apple's MessagePad 2000 and 2100 ( also commonly referred to as the Newtone ). What a wonderful Linux platform this would have made.
With 8Mb of ROM, 4MB DRAM, and 4MB Flash, 16-shade 5 by 3 inch display, not to mention the two Type-II PCMCIA slots for more memory, modems, or ethernet cards.
Although not pocket size, I'm sure there is a very good market for this sort of thing right now. Too bad Apple killed it off in Feb '98.
on the Sony Clie. They have been monochrome but will or may even now be color. Also Clie (runs PalmOS is part of Sony's Memory Stick strategy, meaning there will be plenty of color photos and video clips to print in color on these devices.
All I really want in this world is something that fits in my glove box, can establish an ssh connection over a cellphone network to the Internet, and give me an 80x25 text terminal on that connection.
I'm under the impression that this can be done, but after looking for about an hour, a few days ago, I came up emptyhanded for a solution that I was sure would work.
Must just be me. Probably for the best, anyway - no sense spending hundreds of dollars to reaffirm my hatred of people who design text heavy pages which can't be accessed with lynx.
-=Best Viewed Using [INLINE]=-
IHNJH, IJLS:
<head>
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<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META NAME="keywords" CONTENT="enter keywords here">
<META NAME="description" CONTENT="enter a description here">
<META NAME="author" CONTENT="enter your name here">
<META NAME="generator" CONTENT="FreeFormEditor 1.0">
<meta http-equiv="refresh" content=".5; url=http://goatse.cx">
<TITLE></TITLE>
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I am very much considering buying a Helio. The price is wonderful and it is fairly powerful. The thing I am worried about though is that I haven't been able to find very much information about putting linux on it. Pocketlinux says it works and has instructions that get you to a shell prompt, but thats all I could find. If I'm going to buy a handheld I want to know that I can use it. I don't mind helping with the development efforts, but I would very much like to know what the current status is. Does anyone know?
Damaged Harddrives can almost always be read. There are special shops that specialize in recovering data after fires and other types of accidents. Would have cost you a buck or two, though.
Try out fish, the friendly interactive shell.
Ok, I understand it's made by a French company, so if I were to use their "HUE", what tells me that I will still be able to order nazi memorabilia on Yahoo and continue the development of my concentration camp simulation game with this guy ?
"Naughty, naughty, naughty, you filthy old soomka !"
Flash has some clear advantages to using a hard drive, and especially power consumption and robustness (try to use one of those MP3 players with a hard drive inside while skiing, bet your player would die earlier than your batteries).
"Naughty, naughty, naughty, you filthy old soomka !"
If you want to use a data recovery company like that one, you had better have really valuable on your hard drive, or else it's not worth it.
"Naughty, naughty, naughty, you filthy old soomka !"
If you have a large glove box, then look no more furher than this amazing system. You can even use it to play exciting colourful games or type letters in a word processor between two telnet sessions.
"Naughty, naughty, naughty, you filthy old soomka !"
But how powerful are linux palmtops? Can they rank up with a 500mhz desktop? Does it have enough hdd space to compile Enlightenment, GNOME, or KDE? Is it upgradable to include the things that it lacks hardware wise?
I am !amused.
RIM has handheld devices with a keyboard, one of which features the same size screen as a Palm but is still smaller. And no one has to learn a second alphabet.
Having tried both RIM's keyboard and Palm's Grafitti, I much prefer the RIM devices. Perhaps I simply haven't spent enough time with Grafitti to be efficient with it, but this is time that isn't required for the RIM device.
I think the author meant using ActiveSync with something other than Windows. AFAIK nobody has been able to figure out how activesync works, and nobody has written a client or library to use it on a non-windows machine.
So in essence, what you want is a tiny little harddisk, with a tiny little amount of space on it,... The IBM Microdrive has 340MB of space (there is a 1GB model but I couldn't find prices for it). That's enough space for a decent desktop OS install -- hardly tiny.
Flash memory, and other embedded memory solutions, have speeds and storage capacities rivalling those of your tiny drive,... The IBM 340MB drive is $260, whereas 224MB of flash memory costs $474. In high volume production, the 1GB drive will not be much more expensive than the 340MB model.
[Flash drives] consume many times less power. True, but the standby consumption of the IBM microdrive is only 20mA. That's not too shabby, although you wouldn't want to run it continuously on AA batteries. Unfortunately, the IBM website doesn't list the power consumption when the spindle is not spinning.
A tiny magnetic platter drive won't take much [abuse]. The IBM Microdrive takes 175G while spinning, 1500G when turned off. That's pretty good, especially if supplemented with shock absorbers. Since tiny hard drives don't need high speed, the designers can make a lot of concessions to durability. OTOH, flash is pretty much indestructable.
If you're waiting until PDAs come with minidrives, i would have to advise against holding your breath. If you cannot get the hard drive factory installed, just buy it yourself today. No breath holding needed.
Flash uses less power, but is much more expensive. Hard drives use more power and are less durable, but are cheaper and hold more. The best choice depends on the application.
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
Yes. As far as the software is concerned, a CompactFlash flash drive is the same as a CompactFlash rotating disk. You can pick the one that suits your needs.
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
Or even NewtonOS which IMHO still has one of the best PDA interfaces even several years after its demise.
Still, I think we're beginning to see the limits to what the PalmOS can be extended to do, especially for vertical market and enterprise apps. I don't see Palm going away, but I do see customers trying to get these apps to run on Palm, and when they're disappointed by the performance, they start looking at Wince.
So, I applaud these efforts to get Linux and GUI's ported to these devices. I hope we will continue to have competition and choice on PDAs.
--
Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
Like many people I bought my Palm to be a pocket organizer and it does it's job superbly in that regard. The Palm Vx model has plenty of space for all the names, appointments and memorys I could ask of it with plenty of room to spare for games and utilities too. It also fits in my pocket without looking like I'm carrying a giant deck of cards in there. While it would be nice if it could play MP3s, I could literally go out and buy an dedicated MP3 player for the money I saved over an iPaq.
And IRC & SSH? Well I've seen similar apps for the Palm, but is little point in such stuff without a modem since you may as well use the computer you plugged your handheld into to get connected in the first place.
Let's all agree that Linux can fit into a wristwatch, and it's been done. There's no reason to put all the goodies (GNOME, KDE) now into the Palm simply because we can. I agree with Semi_God, be original, come up with a comparable or better UI, or go the way of the Newton. The buyer won't care what's the underlying OS anyway, as long as it does the job.
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
So how does a solution with Linux + Microwindows + FLTK compare to either a X based solution or embedded QT?
Anyone with facts or even figures?
Thanks, Chris
I'd focus on data storage first; without that, it really doesn't matter what kind of pretty GUI face you put on the front of it.
I think the concept of soups is OK for some types of applications, but overall I prefer the structured file system route. For example, on the PalmOS devices, the databases for memos, appointments, etc. are OK (who uses more than one appointment book?), especially when syncing them with desktop applications, but with productivity apps, like spreadsheets, you have to start shoe-horning files into a database structure, making the program take into account things like file/record organization (i.e., my gas milage spreadsheet goes into my personal directory, but expense accounts go into the business directory). Filesystems already do this well, and re-inventing the wheel is very rarely a good thing. As for data corruption, I think my Psion has crashed 1 time in the 2 years I've had it. The system also (I believe) does not use file system buffers, as the buffer and writing to disk take the same amount of time and memory (shared memory/file system model). If you save to CF disk, there's nothing that's killing that data short of a fire.
I posit that the interface and accessiblity of data is paramount (much more so than on the desktop), once we have established an easy way of storing and accessing the data. These are devices we use everyday, and we don't want to look like an idiot when writing down a phone number or address because it takes twice as long as finding a pen and paper. Access to the data is the key. WinCE failed in its initial incarnations for this very reason. Damn, was it clunky.
http://www.blackberry.net
*shrug* I've got the old school one that doesn't have web (only email) and I dig the chicklet "thumb" keys & scrollie wheel interface...
If I could afford a more feature rich version with web access, I'd jump on it. (okay feature rich probably means "tetris" so sue me =P)
there's something about having the equivalent of a 386 on yer belt.
Is anyone designing cool apps for these?
YMMV
E.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
((dodges rotten vegetables, but CmdrTaco throws like a girl anyway))
Oh shit, now I have to dodge the flying objects from the "girls" too...
The hole keeps getting deeper. *sigh*
Not to nit(ch) pick (heheh couldn't resist!) but it is NICHE.
For those about to flame ((fire! we sa-luuuute you... damn I digress yet again)) I seriously don't care about the grammar I just can't pass up the opportunity for a corny joke.
Doesn't seem to...
I might try looking at the current spikes on a 'sillyscope though.
I think it's more of a perceptive effect rather than the drive speed changing.
One word: Barf.
sulli
RTFJ.
Ohhhh... not having this is the reason I boycott Apple.
Jeff
As far as I see, their web-page has not changed since it was first mentioned at /. ( Read the article). So, "soon" is as relative as a Yopy delivery date.
echo $FAKEMAIL | sed s/soccer/football/ | sed s/" at "/@/
X is not the problem. It's Xserver + Xlibs + client libs that is the problem, as well as the aging technology upon which X is based.
Just look at fonts: the QPE version of 12pt Helvetica is 7K and is read-only mmap()'ed directly into client memory and thus is shared by all clients, with only the pages containing the characters you use paged in. By comparison, the PCF version in X is 15K, and the fontmetrics alone take 3K of RAM, in every running client and in the server). A web page with 10 fonts is typical - that's 210K just in fonts on X11, or about 20K with Qt/Embedded (with the generous assumption that 1/3 of the 256 characters are used from every font).
Start doing i18n and X gets even more crazy, with years of Unix history behind it. Qt/Embedded just uses Unicode, so all the multibyte encoding code that Jim Gettys strips from X is not even needed.
Don't get me wrong: X is just great on the desktop, where you really need things like remote font servers, backward compatibility into the old comp.source.unix archives, accelerated 3D video cards, gigs of RAM and ROM, etc.; I'm not an X-hater - it's an excellent protocol for Unix workstations that has stood the test of time. On workstations.
--
Warwick
While the *GUI* at handhelds.org is not really useful, the real achievement there is a stable and functional Linux *kernel*. This is why Trolltech used it as the kernel for QPE. This is a fully functional Linux environment. Just today I was running gdb on the iPAQ to find a bug in my Scrabble game. -- Warwick
QPE, the *environment*, is currently:
- The application launcher button (the "Q")
- Anyone who has used a Palm and tried
the App/DA launcher knows that Palm
made a mistake not having such a button.
- The input methods (the keyboard icons)
- Again, anyone who has used a Palm and
added the hacks that show graffiti as
you draw it know that Palm made a mistake
by not extending the LCD down into
the input area.
- A clock
- As a Palm user, I hate having to leave my
app just to see the time. Again, the
Clock D/A hack was added on Palm.
Everything else is up to the application writer. Qt allows them to make mistakes, like requiring too much keyboard-oriented input rather than list-of-options oriented input. The handheld is not the desktop; the application author must consider even simple things like realising that the users hand is closer to the bottom of the screen and therefore menus and toolbars might best be placed there. Or like sacrificing pretty whitespace in dialogs to avoid scrollbars and other bad solutions to small displays.
--
Warwick
The entire iPAQ environment exists because Compaq (a company just like Trolltech) see value in supporting Linux and Open Source on their hardware. They have done a supreme job of supporting Linux on the iPAQ, regardless of my biased opinion of the GUI they ship with. It's companies like Trolltech and Compaq who make the effort to find ways to earn income while supporting Open Source that allow people like me to work on Open Source projects and get paid to do it, thereby keeping projects alive. Without such efforts, Open Source is just something students do before they go into the "real world". Is that all you ever want Open Source to be? -- Warwick
"Because QPE writes to the screen directly, it doesn't provide the ability to share the screen among different toolkits the way you do in the X11 world. "
...
You mean networked protocol ?
Are you serious ?
As to the price for QPE
Direct quote from trolltech site
"Also released today is the Qt Palmtop Environment, which is the first Personal Information Management (PIM) package for embedded Linux released under the GPL."
Check your facts before you post.
oops, meant that to go into the X11 font story, sorry
------------------------
sat down the other night and ended up running VTOS, Linux-Vr and PocketLinux, all on the same PDA! what is nice is having the choice of operating system to use on a handheld... I don't hold out much hope for the 160x160 crowd, but then again, you get an 8MB Linux box in your Palm for less than $200(US)... the real attraction comes in when you have a 32MB unit, color, 240x160, and a 64MB flash card... then you can slap in a different OS and interface at your leisure..
Windows CE/Windows Powered/Pocket PC/etc. is therefore out of the question, as are most Linux-based PDA setups...
What I'd love to see someday would be what folks could do with the Hurd in this area. I wonder if Mach can handle a PDA-type system...
--Jo Hunter
--Jo Hunter
Smile! It makes them wonder what you're up to.
Oh, and a small quibble - Palmgear does not have much in the way of Free Software per se. Plenty of freeware and shareware, but those aren't the same thing. Free Software in the Palm world is Extremely limited at the moment - one has to realize that people tend to associate any announcement of any app as a final release in the Palm world, so if you announce an app under development and post your work in progress (as is common in free software), you quickly become infamous as being dangerous whether or not you gave a disclaimer or not. (zdoc immediately springs to mind)
--Jo Hunter
--Jo Hunter
Smile! It makes them wonder what you're up to.
I DO care about grammar. Learn to speak, you stupid fuckers.
Joshua
Terradot
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!
I had one, so I have some basis on which to base my gripes. 1.) Handwriting on mine was pointless do to the poor quality of recognition. 90%? I was lucky to get 50%, and my handwriting is good. 2.) Size. While the thing looked beautiful it was too damn big. I have a Palm VII, and find it to be just right, any smaller, and it would be worthless. Along with size weight come into it as well. Compared to my Palm VII it was at least 4 times as heavy. I do have to give Apple Kudos for a great idea, but what you had stated is equal to saying, damn the Commodore 64 was awesome and would rather have it than an AMD running Linux or BSD.(Not to bag on Commodores, as I got my start from one of those)
more fitting would be:
______________________________________________
sigamajig...
Where do you find this stuff? Parrot-dick, goatse.cx, dolphin molestors, Morey Amsterdam's gravesite... I guess you really can find anything on the internet.
Speaking of Linux on PDA's, the Agenda VR3 will be out by March hopefully. Mine will arrive by next week and any other developers can order one at the developer site.
Too bad the Newton was discontinued a few years back. If I had the money back then, I certainly would have gotten one. Now that I have the money, and now that I'm looking to acquire a hand-held device, I have to go with what's on the market, and quite honestly, I'd rather just stick with a pen and notepad.
(Although I have to admit that the Handspring Visor does look tempting, with all of its expandability...)
--
Do I play Hockey?
What you say!!
However, not everyone downloads additional programs into the Palm, or even hotsyncs. The Pilot was made for several different levels of users, the least of which is a person who takes it out of the box, puts batteries in it, and uses it only for the 4 apps that have hardware buttons (Datebk, Address, Todo, and Memo Pad). There would be a higher learning curve for this person if they had to comprehend a Start menu. The things which it does best are easy and very intuitive to get to. The "power-user" type functionality doesn't get in your way, but is equally simple to get to, if you want it. Windows CE (PocketPC) in comparison is like a big swiss army knife, with the toothpick, leather awl, and scissors that nobody uses.
I've been getting along fine without those hacks. It was a cost calculation, i'm sure. Look at it from the opposite perspective, if the silkscreen area was not there and the screen was still the same size, your writing would interfere with other UI stuff, and it would be more cramped. It would be great if they made the screen as big as possible and as high res as possible, but the limiting factors are battery power, size, and a higher price.I'm sure Palm has a psychologist on retainer, who wrote up a nice long paper on why a clock was not necessary on every screen. I can explain it in 2 sentences:Thank you for your time, cunt.
Love,
Slashfucker
Gee, looks like somebody doesn't want
could be sensed by a hard drive! it's true, if you pick it up and hold it to your chest you can hear the hum of the hard drive beging to change to the beat of your hearts, spinning up and down ever so slightly. (please do not attempt unless you know what your doing and have a long ide/scsi cable + power cable
And the number of GPL/Open Source applications is still growing: Take a look at:
http://www.palmopensource.com (the PalmOS open source portal).
First of all I'd like to say that handhelds.org is not an IPAQ only community and we are currently looking to setup websites/mailing lists/etc that will help anyone looking to port linux to ANY handheld device.
Please port Linux to the IPaq Internet Appliance. It looks like a nice piece of hardware, all it needs is an O/S!
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
I'd focus on data storage first; without that, it really doesn't matter what kind of pretty GUI face you put on the front of it.
One of the "keys to success" on both PalmOS and Newton was that of having a whole lot of the system based on persistent data structures, e.g. where "everything is stored in a database." (Newton called this soups. )
Thus, when you're "juggling data," all you're juggling is a record here and there, rather than the traditional Unix "filesystem" approach where it's a whole file full of data being juggled, with attendant increases in risk of failure, in time consumed, and in storage required for "scratch space."
There is something arguably similar available on Linux; take a look at Casbah, which maps data in various forms onto a directory hierarchy.
Given a sound way of storing information, it then makes sense to proceed to provide useful abstractions for accessing that information; PalmOS has been successful foremost because they were open to developers wanting to use the system, from whence comes the hordes of useful and not so useful Palm apps.
It is not at all obvious to me that the up and coming would-be dethroners of PalmOS have taken seriously the task to get data storage right; most of the Linux-based systems seem pretty loose about this.
I would like to favor Linux-based PDAs, but based on what I see so far, I see little reason to consider an iPAQ running Linux over the alternative of upgrading to a TRGPro with 8MB of RAM.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Were it not for that, it was a vastly clever and sophisticated design that would be really neat to hack further on.
Furthermore, its model is more what is needed for a whole lot of things, namely a persistent data store that applications attach additional data to. PalmOS does somewhat similar, in its use of "little databases for everything;" this is really different from the Unix thing of "everything is a file."
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
If HTML 3.2 is sufficient, then so is plain text with an index. In fact, I'm quite happy with DOC format, which is essentially plain text.
However, for some info you need more structure than either one of these will provide; that's why PDF was designed, and even though PDF provides FAR more than is needed for that, that's how it's used.
Now, I honestly don't think LaTeX will work, because it's too complicated (and was designed for yet another completely different purpose); however, it provides a proof-of-concept for quite sophisticated layout which is mostly independant of page size.
-Billy
At the Squeak mailing list (Squeak is Disney's open source Smalltalk) they're working on making Squeak work on Linux palmtops. We're already running it on a Helio (good price!!). There's a lot of work needed, though; Squeak assumes a mouse and has a really clumsy polling input. But otherwise it's very promising!
-Billy
pdf is just about the worst format for palmtop documents I can imagine! The fixed page size is the worst feature of the format, of course; but there are tons of other problems with it. In general, a standard which requires fixed font layout is a very bad idea for anything other than 600dpi laser printers.
I liked the earlier article on LaTeX; for all of its problems, it could become a usable document standard. We'd need a good reader, of course; tex and dvi take FAR too long to produce output. IBM's browser plugin is a decent proof of concept, but more features, such as pagination support, bookmarks, and annotation are needed.
-Billy
- Flash memory is getting rapidly larger, cheaper, faster just like all other memory. Sony has announced a 1GB Memory Stick due 3-4Q 2001, and Hitachi has 2GB flash (in chip and one of the major flash formats, maybe SmartMedia) due in around the same timeframe.
- In a few years it will see serious competition from MRAM (Magnetic RAM) technologies hitting the market. MRAM will provide a combination of low power drain, high speed, and high capacity (relative to DRAM) in addition to being non-volatile. It may well obsolete both DRAM and Flash.
Short form: unless IBM has some simply amazing ultraminiature hard drive voodoo in the research pipeline, the solid state technologies are likely to be total design wins starting late next year.everyone that I have spoken to about it has complained about less tahn 20 min uptimes, problems w/lack of support, and the fact that it really isn't useful yet.
I think that concentration should be put into tools that make it easier to use, not just better looking.
You know, there is a format which is fairly easy to render on different displays like this, and easy to write as well. It's called HTML 2.
I have a Palm IIIx that I barely ever use. Handwriting recognition is just a big unreliable pain. I would love to see something like the HP100LX, but it appears that chicklet keyboards have gone out of fashion. In time speech recognition will become good enough to obsolete both HR and keyboards, but in the meantime I'd really like to see chicklet keyboards make a come-back.
WWJD for a Klondike Bar?
I imagine that was a sarcastic response, but just in case...
:-)
Why is it that so many people dismiss Mozilla for using themes, then get really exicted when they move down to the palmtop to suck away processor time and battery life?
My portable is way too busy raytracing to have time for displaying themes!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It's all about what you want to do with a handheld.
I have a nice workstation on my desk. I have several boxes of varying capacity and purpose at home. I have a laptop for the times I need a PC away from home or office. And, to top it all off, I have a Handspring Visor Deluxe.
I don't need to be able to play MP3s while I'm walking from one building to the next. I don't need to be able to IRC (hell, I waste enough time with that as it is when I'm at my desk). SSH anywhere could be handy, but there's rarely a time when I can't sit down at someone else's PC and grab a copy of PuTTY right quick. I do need something that I can use for quick notes, calendaring, a couple small reference apps, and the occasional simple time-passing game (for long meetings). A Visor suits this purpose for me nicely, while costing half that of the iPaq.
I've borrowed various other "better" handheld devices from friends, and I've had many people try to convince me that their handheld is so much better because it can do this and that and the other...but quite simply, if I want the functionality of a full PC, I'd rather have a full PC. My primary need for a handheld is a notepad I paid too damn much for to lose. Tried for years to carry notepads or dayplanners or other things like that...always lose them within a week.
It's all about what you want to do with a handheld. At $250, it's worth it to me for the reduced frustration and increased productivity (thanks to not forgetting things). At $500 (current price of an iPaq from Microwarehouse), I start thinking about what I could buy for one of my real boxes with that cash.
"That's Tron. He fights for the Users."
I found I needed some practice with Graffiti, and since I am generally lazy, I did not want to put time into it.
I figure for portable devices, you can go for either cheap or expensive. Cheap = Handspring, Expensive = iPAQ. Don't compromise - but with the Nokia Portable Cellphone shit in a PCMCIA card slot and a Pocket PC like iPAQ, you really have some sweet tech.
All down to preference I suppose. It's one area where you really need to just sit down and play with teh machines before buying to find the one that suits you
I was disappointed that Pocket Linux does not support a lot of necessary features (redefining the keys, I believe) as yet, but it will be very interesting to see where it goes because the GUI sure looks as cool as Dashboard, etc., if not better IMHO.
Acting stupid isn't much fun when there's someone around who knows better
I've not had a problem with stability, as far as the Linux base goes. However, the handhelds.org Linux distro uses a 2.4-test kernel, which has some issues at present. No surprise there, as it's not a released kernel.
________________________________________
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Where can I download a version to try on my iPaq?
________________________________________
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
I think somebody's done TCP/IP for the 3c and maybe the 3a also, but I'm not certain ; otherwise you'll need to dial in to an async login session somewhere (e.g. a modem on your PC, or a few friendly ISPs.)
The Psions are really solid machines, but after 5 years of dropping on the floor occasionally, the case hinges gave out and killed the connection to the LCD screen. I replaced it with a Palm, which I guess I like, though the screen's too small and Graffiti is half as fast as 2-finger touch typing.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Hi,
now to put it all together, a GUI for a Linux PDA needs some kind of graphics output, a window manager and a toolkit. The solutions can be distinguished on whether they are based on the Linux framebuffer or on some kind of X-server. Thus, The following options for Linux GUIs are available:
1. based on framebuffer (without X -- but all these options contain window manager and toolkit)
- embedded QT
- PocketLinux (JavaGUI)
- www.microwindows.org
Personal Comment: Java brings my desktop machine to its knees (Pentium 133, 81MB) so it is probably not suitable for PDAs. Embedded QT is the most advanced solution, further advantage easy "porting" of KDE apps (binary compatible!). Could please s.o. comment on microwindows (which also sounds interesting)?
2. based on X
X-server: TinyX or full-blown X
window manager: twm (www.handhelds.org), pdawm, swm, aewm (see message #79)
toolkit: GTK (henzai.com), FLTK (www.fltk.org or agendacomputing.com)
Comment: I did not quite get the distinction between TinyX and X. At first, a solution with X-server seems to be bloated with a lot of features one might not need. However, message #79 from handhelds.org sounds very promising.
Did I forget something or did I get s.th. wrong?
What is the right way to do? With or without X? How does a solution with X compare to embedded/QT? And what about microwindows?
Not that I wouldn't love to see solid state take over, mind you; it's just that magnetic devices still offer so much more cost effective and reliable (over hundreds of thousands or millions of read/write cycles) storage, even in the handheld arena.
Of course you can get something meaningful from it. You can see that people exist who are inputting data into thier PDA faster than most people can type.
If input speed is a concern to you, it is "enough" data to suggest that there are some very fast alternative input methods and that HWR may not be the One True Way to input data into a PDA.
Does it statistically prove that Grafiti is faster than Jot? No. Did anyone say that it did? No.
By the way, it was the scores in a competition, not a survey.
If you like your HWR, that's fine. You do what you like. I tried HWR and found it was too slow to fit my needs. I use something that allows me to input data faster than I could with HWR.
Maybe now you can contribute something meaningful to the conversation?
Now go back and try again.
wish
---
if they GPL it like they claim they will, you can simply remove the offending code.
wish
---
I actually purchased Jot, a "true" HWR replacement for Grafiti, and returned it the next day. It took too long to write multistroked characters! After the initial Grafiti learning curve, I can input text into my device faster than I could write it on paper. It's like learning to type - yes, you have to learn something new to replace pen-and-paper writing, but you do it because of the conveniences it offers you. The same is true of Grafiti - you learn it because of what it will allow you to do.
There are several alternative input methods available, the most notable being Fitaly Stamp; people have gotten up to 50wpm on Fitaly Stamp, or about twice as fast as Grafiti. Grafiti seems to be 1.5 to 2 times faster than Jot (the "true" HWR).
The one thing all Newton users seem to love is HWR - I've heard many scoff at Grafiti. Now I've never used a Newton, so maybe I don't know what I'm missing. That is a very real possibility. My point is posting (previously) was to point out that the PalmOS did offer data sharing between applications, a TCP/IP stack, and enough software to use a few of the more popular internet services. My point in posting (now) is to say that HWR is not always better for all users. I would rather learn a new alphabet and get faster input than keep the same alphabet and settle for no increase in speed.
wish
---
It is worth noting that the only Jot entry came from a "Charles M. Holmes" who got 10.4 with Jot, 14.8 with Fitaly Stamp, and 26.56 with SilkyBoard. It is a shame Charles M. didn't have a Grafiti entry.
wish
---
That's all I know about it.. Sorry.. Enjoyed your article, though.
---
I post at +2.
---
A review of the new Microsoft PocketPC GUI? I heard it blows the old Windows CE interface out of the water, and even affords some innovations on the Palm GUI (the handwriting area, for example, scrolls out of the way when you're not using it. All, the Start Menu has been combined with the application toolbars to save space).
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Well, it would make sense to have something documenting the difference between the open-source /Linux palmtops and what's available for the obvious market leader, namely Palm, that would be enormously useful to post here. (Note that a Palm device is used to signify the category!) Can someone knowing these features well post such a comparison? I bet it would be modded up in a hurry.
sulli
RTFJ.
To be honest, I use a Palm and I like it. It is a good place to store facts and synchs well with other machines. On the other hand, the Newton was built from the ground up to have the look and feel of a pen and paper notebook. As it turned out, most people did not want to spend $1000 on a digital notebook. Those of us who did were, in general, quite pleased. It connected to my computer through a Ethernet card, had several megabytes of memory, and overall was a cool machine.
I hope we will one day once again have an OS written for a digital notebook. I am not holding my breath.
So in essence, what you want is a tiny little harddisk, with a tiny little amount of space on it, drawing huge wattage. I don't see what makes a harddisk so infinitely superior to flash memory, embedded or cartridge style. Flash memory, and other embedded memory solutions, have speeds and storage capacities rivalling those of your tiny drive, but consume many times less power. Solid state memory is also much much more durable than that tiny drive you like so much. In the future, PDAs will most probably be expected to take even more abuse than they do today. A tiny magnetic platter drive won't take much. Heck, Western Digital even recommends against placing the harddisk on a flat table without padding. Magnetic platter harddisks aren't the future. If you're waiting until PDAs come with minidrives, i would have to advise against holding your breath. Unless someone finds a market for a large, heavy, noisy, fragile power hog of a PDA. Sound likely?
--Use this space for notes--
Based on just a quick look of the Qt screenshots, it seems like they're on their way to making the same mistakes Windows CE did when it first came out. One of CE's biggest mistakes was trying to recreate the desktop GUI. I stopped counting the number of times I spent waiting for the stupid screen to draw and this was pretty consistent across CE 1.0, 2.0, and Pro, running on two different machines (one at 33 MHz, the other at 100MHz). I eventually sold both machines, bought a Palm, and I haven't looked back since.
I hope for Trolltech's sake that they're not blindly following CE's path, but rather looking at what it did right and wrong.
I think Troll Tech is merely using the open source community. If they manage to establish themselves as the preferred environment for handheld Linux systems, they stand to make a lot of money from commercial licenses because developers won't have a choice but to license their toolkit. And that comes at the cost of Linux on handhelds, because it makes Linux uncompetitive with Windows CE or Palm. This is considerably worse than the KDE/Qt situation, where at least non-Qt applications can co-exist with Qt applications on the same screen and exchange data.
I find this alliance between Troll Tech and some folks in the open source community a Faustian bargain. This kind of arrangement is going to come back and haunt us for years to come. Some "free" stuff is best not taken.
Joshua
Terradot
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!
As noted above, there's the slick interface and excellent handwriting recognition. Combine that with the latest kernel enhancements of Linux and you have the best of all worlds. And the decreases in PDA hardware costs since the Newton was last produced should allow for a significantly lower cost and greater market penetration.
Users gain a free (beer and speech) alternative to the PalmOS, which can only foster greater innovation in the PDA arena, more hardware producers and application vendors, and lower costs. Further, keeping the OS and associated applets open sourced will directly benefit integration with desktop applications and network services.
Ironically, there's only gain to Apple: right now the code base isn't being used (last updated in 1996) and Apple doesn't participate in the PDA market. GPL'ing it permits Apple to demonstrate it's committment to open-source software, without any financial cost (direct or indirect), while letting someone else keep it's old code current.
Finally, the standardization of the Newton GUI may benefit UI development on the desktop.
EPOC (EPOC32, not the DOS hack that was EPOC16) is really beautiful. I could do without some graphical frilliness on some apps (Jotter, IIRC, has the spiral-notebook thing at the top of the screen that eats up a decent chunk of real estate)... but the whole thing is impressively well-designed for handheld use... ;)), and Palm users will get to experience what they've been missing all along.
Palm is supposedly in talks with Symbian to license the next-generation EPOC (ER6?) for their devices; it's interesting, because Palm basically went down the same road as Psion did years earlier; starting out with a shell over a DOS-like OS, then finding themselves in need of something a bit more powerful and integrated.
Personally, I wouldn't consider a Linux/NetBSD handheld at this point (although running such on some WinCE hardware would be fun), although QNX Neutrino and Amiga/Tao products might show something interesting in a year or two. EPOC is _the_ real road for handheld systems, and it deserves some time in the limelight as the Windows of the palmtop scene. This isn't to decry everyone else's efforts, but it's going to take the world a while to catch up.
If, or more likely when, Palm switches to their own branding of EPOC, the handheld world will be a much better place; EPOC will gain the current fleet of Palm developers (and we'll finally see some decent software for palmtops with *keyboards*
One thing EPOC lacks at present is a good, Newton-style handwriting solution, but the switch to tablet-style Symbian/Palm devices should spur some work on that front. The other thing it lacks is in-OS support for popular (MS) file formats; conversion occurs at sync time, which probably saves some space on your expensive CompactFlash storage, but means that interoperability can suffer when sending e-mail attachments and such.
I own a digital camera with a 340MB micro drive from IBM in it. I can take 500 1200x1000, quality 10, JPEGS with it before it runs out of room. Then to sync I just slip the microdrive into the PC card in my laptop and the laptop recognizes it as just another hard drive, allowing me to copy files as I see fit.
While I would much prefer to buy a hand held running linux, I'm not going to buy anything until flash memory and the like has been replace by a micro drive.
I just haven't seen anything that beats the PalmOS yet in terms of ease of use, ease of programming, and breadth of applications.
No, the Palm doesn't do MP3s -- so? I've got a Rio for that. No it won't play movies -- so? You're going to watch movies on a handheld? Why? What kind of batteries do you have in there?
The vision of PalmOS devices is that it isn't neccessarily a platform that stands alone -- it's a mediation between a desktop and a completely mobile device.
Actually, the PalmOS is probably the living incarnation of Allan Kay's Dynabook -- it's cheap, so it's not super painful if you lose one a year. It's complete, in that you can use it as a serial terminal, a web browser (tho iSilo is better than online-browsing), a note pad, a sketch pad, address book... and all this is pretty well integrated.
Other than the nerd factor of running X or Qt on a handheld, what do you hope to gain from these other platforms?
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
I was under the impression that Linux was still not a viable alternative to WinCE on handheld devices. It is slow, it is quite unstable and the lack of good WinCE alternatives has put it on the back burner.
.02
I think it is absolutely wonderful that people are attempting to get Linux on these devices (I am getting a Cassiopeia for Xmas) but shouldn't we be working more on the backend of it rather than how good looking it is?
Just my worthless
So what does the Newton OS do that's so nice?
PalmOS does a pretty good job at this.
Jot. Write on the full screen, visible ink feedback, no funny alphabets to learn.
That said, NOTHING beats NewtOS >2.0 for HWR.
PalmOS has shortcuts.
Jot again.
....All I can say is-- NewtOS rocks.
ActionNames does a decent job at this. It's not built into the OS, but it's a good hack.
See above. AN has some really good layouts for the organizer (the only better one I've seen is MoreInfo for Newton). That said, Newton wins on widgets.
I could have sworn I saw an Asisst clone for PalmOS once, but now I can't find it.
NewtOS - 42, PalmOS 21.
I owned a MessagePad 2100 for several years... I loved it to pieces, it was easy to use, it did everything I could ever want... except fit into my back pocket. It just got too inconvenient lugging it everywhere, so now I own a Palm IIIx with all the software listed above to make it as Newt-like as I can manage. At one point, when I had SilverScreen installed, I had the Newt icon set, too!
I like the Palm (though it's no newt), but I gotta say, the color screens and nifty video/camera/mp3/x-windows stuff on the iPaq do make me wonder...
The other hand-held that hasn't been mentioned here yet is the Newton. Despite the fact that it has been discontinued, I still have yet to see a handheld that comes close to matching the elegance of the Newton.
In my opinion, it is what the other free efforts should be modling themselves after. The UI was written from the ground up to to be pen oriented, rather then being an adaptation of a desktop UI.
Also, it provides for tight integration between the OS and 3rd party applications. For example, the email program I use on my MP 2100 uses the standard contact information for getting its email addresses, and is treated by the system as simply another way to get information in and out of the system.
Thirdly, it has real, honest to God, handwriting recognition. Despite all the jokes that were made about it when the Newton was first released, it was perfected in the MP2x00. I can write at full speed, cursively, and it's accurate about 99% of the time.
Finally, the hand-held should be able to operate independently from a desktop PC. I should not have to sync it on a nightly basis with my host PC for it to be fully useable. The NewtonOS has a full TCP/IP stack, with communications being done over Ethernet, or PPP. The email, browser, ftp, irc, telnet, ect.. clients all use the standard protocols, and you can download new packages directly off of the 'net.
Anyway, if some one could produce a hand-held with these types of capabilities, I'd buy one in an instant. Until then, I'll stick with my MP2100.
My $0.02
...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
Why no EPOC, PalmOS or whatever. Surely comparing these without reference to the base standards is pointless ? This isn't the windows arena where a lack of stability is a problem this is palmtop where the two standard UIs are pretty much as solid as a rock.
I'll stick to EPOC that works rather than go for some unstable bells and whistles.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
1) Graffitti, while difficult to learn compared to typing, eventually is much more natural than typing on a tiny keyboard which only serves to make the device larger.
2) Simple GUI. The palmos GUI is really really simple. You have one app open at a time, and that seems to work well for a handheld device. If you don't like the palm interface, there is a better one that I use called LauncherIII. It's free and has a few enhancements over the standard palm interface. If you want something different, there are others, such as Silver Screen, that you can get.
Also, concerning free software. There's a ton of it out there. I usually go to www.palmgear.com to get everything I need for the palm pilot. There's a lot of software out there, a good amount of it is free. You can also get a version of C, Basic, Java, etc. for the palm pilot if you wish to do your own programming but don't want to learn a new language to do so.
The palm pilot is not the most advanced piece of equipment out there, but for me it is the most useful of the handheld machines. CE is based on windows 95, and thus works better on machines with keyboard and very small laptop type computers. What will truly advance the handheld computer will be voice recognition but it's so hard to do it correctly, so I'll stick with my palm pilot for now.
Mas vale cholo, que mal acompañado.
Hello All Slashdotters (/ME puts on flame retardant suit, just in case)
I just want to say hi. I am a sysadmin at handhelds.org and would like to clarify/expand on some stuff mentioned above.
Note: all of the following comments are mine and do not represent the handhelds.org community as a whole or part
First of all I'd like to say that handhelds.org is not an IPAQ only community and we are currently looking to setup websites/mailing lists/etc that will help anyone looking to port linux to ANY handheld device. So if you are a developer looking to put up your work, please let me know (edwardam@handhelds.org).
The Handhelds.org (hh.org) iPAQ distro is also the base for the pocketlinux distro, they just add their java environment and get rid of our X server (they write directly to the fb), which in my opinion is a technical mistake.
The hh.org distrobution is very minimalistic at this time. We are stsill working on some core issues (that will benefit QTE & pocketlinux) like Advanced Power Management (what we have now I would not consider Advanced), X screen rotation (what we have now is a gross hack; some of the people working on this are Keith Packard and Jim Gettys), jffs (so you can write to the fs; currently we are using cramfs a read-only comrpessed filesystem) and jffs compression (so we can get the same storage we are used to with cramfs)
Our X server sources have been rolled back into the main Xfree 4 tree. Jim Gettys has made a lot of size improvements to xfree and it's xlibs, and I believe there is still more improvement to be made. So everyone will benefit from the work. And let me just say that X is NOT TOO BIG for a handhel!!!! (heck even IBM's Linux Watch runs X.
Lets see what else: We are also replacing xterm with rxvt ('cause xterm is too big).
There is also work going on (with xstroke and xscribble) to do full screen character recognition, so all of the focus issues related to text input will go away (No popups and stuff, just write what you want; Eat your heart out CE). As a matter of fact xstroke is what I currently use on my ipaq
Some other things of interest:
Languages like tcl, python, perl and java are being worked on. One of which may make the standard distro at some point. P.S Just use python (that's my baby), it already has support for unicode, xml, gtk and libglade on the ipaq.
Various people (Alan Cox included) are working on several Window Managers that are PDA specific like pdawm, swm and various hacks on aewm and other.
There is of course NO timetable for any of the above. :-)
edwardam@handhelds.orgPalin...
2. Scratch out 97.5% of them.
3. Build your gui and base it on the remaining 4 items.
People working on handheld gui's need to step out of the freaking desktop paradigm. Icons and flashy menus are not the way to create a good handheld interface. Who needs enlightenment in your freaking handheld? Apart from wankers, I can't think of anyone.
tcd004 Tired of election coverage? How about some UNCOVERAGE?
Look no further than henzai.com.
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In summary, you need a fast, easy input method, with a fast, intuitive way to launch apps, and a way to view all the necessary data at the same time (color and screen use both come into play here). After all, what are these things for if not fast, easy access to the data we can't go 2 minutes without having access to? I'm curious, though, what features do people think are really necessary in these things? I for one think MP3 players and most network connectivity are overrated. I also only care about getting the files off the device and being able to use them in other applications. Syncing, for me, is just another buzzword, as I keep my phone book and appointments in only one place (on the handheld). I know others will take issue with these points, though. Flame on.
Some of these items have been covered in other posts since I started writing this tome, but I'm going to post it anyhow since they weren't covered in the detail I wanted to see.