As long as IE ships with Windows, it will always have a significant market share because of companies that simply do nothing.
That's the kind of company that can't hold its high value employees. Makes for a good short.
I will make the same tired arguments that have been made for 10 years. When you have a $2,000,000 peoplesoft installation that only works in IE 6 and java 5 will you dare to approach the PHB cost accountants at work and say you should throw that $2,000,000 away because Chrome is sooo cool!! Go do it?... while the whole department is on the floor laughing at you then say.... "I will walk if you make me use that ancient browser one day longer!!" PHB: Uh ok. Do not let the door slame your ass on the way out!
When you graduate college or work in anything but a small business you see IE everywhere. One to throw a bitch fest, yell at Oracle, SAP, IBM, and other enterprise vendors.
They are finally supporting Firefox 3.6, but anything above 4+ they wont certifiy as it changes every 6 weeks. So IE it is!
Also yell at Mozilla? Only IE has group policy objects, active directory integration, and other things where you can push a IE update to 90,000 workstations across 5 continents with ease. Have you managed thousands of PCs before? Only IE has this.
Until Mozilla wakes up the enterprise will constantly always pick IE.
I second that. MMOs have big cult followings among women.
Women are just different. They are social beings. They want to integrate people and technology into their already existing lives. Not use it to get away as a stress reliever like men. The fact you need downtime makes them resentful. However if sheis included like in Wow has an appeal.
IE 8 seems a little earlier. Especially if you have business users. Even on the internet many sites still work better with IE 8 including Slashdot. Yes, they have standards, but when they see a string that says IE they feed old IE code.
Maybe slashdot.org can fix the comment threading in IE 9?
For the exact same reason, I had been wondering why people tried/are still trying to kill Java instead of improving it altogether. And I came up with a pretty obvious conclusion that people are selfish, egotistic, and arrogant. If we knew how to cooperate with the others, the world would definitely be a much better place.
We have HTML 5 and ajax to do just that. We do not own Adobe or Oracle. That is the difference. Java needs to die too. It had its chance but Sun and Oracle never improved it outside the 1990s and it is time to move on to something we own and control instead.
I view Adobe as the evil money grab trying to destroy internet standards, GPL, hobbiests, and free operating systems.
Why? In 1999 Linux/FreeBSD was the ulitmate web development platform. So many tools and a cutting edge Netscape and Mozilla browsers, codecs (yes distros including them back then), and php modules galore. Today employers demand Adobe flash, adobe dreamweaver, adobe photoshop, adobe preimere, for any web development job. You need WIndows or Mac only to learn web development. Windows preferable as IE is standard.I have to pirate as I wont blow $2,000 to learn things and the cool tools of linux have to run on an ISP or another computer. That is messed up if you ask me.
Flash is terrible, insecure, hardware acceleration non existent on many platforms, non mobile friendly, and controlled by a corporation. HTML 5 is coming a long way but its a start.
Go launch IE 6 and try to use it? That is my cite.
On VMWare IE 6 crashes on the default MSN news page within 30 seconds. Pretty bad if you ask me since MS makes it and even www.microsoft.com doesn't work properly in IE 6 anymore.
The rule I use is 5%. If you spend 50% of your time with 5% of the market it is time to ignore them and put a polite banner with links to later browsers asking them to upgrade to enjoy the latest features.
You need to draw the line somewhere and 40% to 50% of all customers who use IE 9/10 who do not support this standard is batshit crazy! IE 6 is another matter. IE 7 is going out of support too as it approaches the 5% number too.
Let me know how slashdot works with IE 9 on changing the comment threshold? I have to go into IE 8 compatibility mode to change it.
Also, IE 9 64 bit uses the older javascript compiler as in the IE 6 -8 one! Maybe that is why it worked for you? THat or it is not optimized and is as slow as IE 8 according to some users. If you must use IE 9 use the 32-bit version even though slashdot and a few other sites are not fully compatible with it yet. Hence, why the corps are sticking with IE 8.
IE 9 is much improved overall even if it has issues with some sites still.
Firefox has 32-bit support still because of plugins. Flash is one that you mentioned. Others are corporate oriented ones that are starting to replace their activeX counterparts. Many of them still use Java 1.4 as that is what Cisco routers seem to prefer which is one of the thorns that is keeping hte beancounters from leaving Windows XP. Those things cost hundreds of thousands to replace.
Chrome and IE 10 interact fine if you follow the link.
Yes, we can bash MS for being evil but the grandparent is right. It is an empty standard with no implementation and is a nightmare as a result.
If Mozilla supports it then we will use that. Netscape and IE supported non w3c standards back in the day aka quirks mode even though they did do things only each browser would do.
It looks like we might have another modern quirkmode in this if everyone supports it.
I had FIrefox work just fine with Sharepoint 2010.
It makes me wonder how complex is sharepoint and what does it actually do? If you need a consultant to set it up and programmers to fiddle with it then of course teh guys at work only know IE7 and IE 8 would write the vbscript.
The ones I got to work were compliant and I sincerely hope it is not as complex as I mentioned above as this was Microsofts answer to wikipedia. It should be simple theoretically with templates right?
IE is still the most popular browser in the world.
No it isn't, it fell off that perch years ago. Nobody uses Microsoft's browser by choice. Face it, Microsoft's sun is setting. Don't let the chair hit you on the way out.
I think statistics say otherwise. Remember, most people do not hang out on slashdot and are into browsers. Ask any webmaster here who writes internet sites that average people or businesses use? They will say 50 to 60% still use IE. It still sets the standards if you want to be paid by anyone to attract users sadly.
Remember these users are grandmas, 40 year old moms, accountants in the office with locked computers, redneck Joe Six Packs, and little kids at home whose teacher showed them that little blue e = internet. Not techies. Which browser do you think they use? I give you a little hint? It is the one they are familiar with that they use at work or school. Sometimes they geeky smart nephew will introduce this foxfire thingie for many... but not everyone.
Lets say people who are not grayhairs who hate change and are set in their ways decide to switch to Chrome? IE drops to say 10% of users! Can we still ignore it? Still a NO. Unless you want to use my example of telling 1 out of 10 customers to go screw themselves to a client who is paying you the answer is you support it. 5%? Then maybe you can put a polite banner with a link to Chrome or Firefox then.
Arstechnica, zdnet, slashdot, and engadget are a tiny minority. It is not like the 1990s when the internet was a geek thing.
Lets hope MS has technical reasons for this as Skype would be better support the w3c standard?
Does anybody even care what Microsoft does these days? They even seem to fail at being evil, though they still try.
Yep. IE is still the most popular browser in the world. g.statcounter.com may say otherwise but others such as netappliances say 55% of everyone on the net including tablet and phone users use Internet Explorer.
Regardless you can't ignore it. If IE wont support it you can't use it PERIOD. Until IE gets below 5% marketshare no sane business will dare cut them off. IT would be like owning a restaurant and telling 1 out of 10 users to leave and go fuck themselves. You will be out of business fast.
So this is a big deal if MS is being evil or maybe brilliant if the standard actually works and Mozilla copies it. FYI webkit supports this standard too as Chrome already works with it as webRTC still has major hurdles.
Chrome also supports the standard and can already interface with IE 10. WebRTC is not standardized as no one can agree on the exact implementation yet and no 2 browsers can work with it the same. Microsoft did submit this to the W3C with its implementation.
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can care to comment?
Due to Microsofts past with IE 6 and also them buying Skype I do feel a little skeptical. Is WebRTC really that difficult compred to the other one?
No, but Pasco County in the Tampa area is considered one of the highest lightning capitals in the world. During monsoon season hail and dangerous lightning occurs practically every other day. THat can knock out data easily. I would not be surprised if lightning hits around the facility at least 30 or more times for the summer months.
Virginia gets them too but not so much as it is surrounded by warm 80 degree water on one side in the summer, but not 88 degree water on all 3 sides spawning these thunderstorms.
California obviously would be the best for inclement weather., but has an extremely expensive costs for land, rent, and labor with high taxes and earthquakes.
I was under the impression it utilized the same exploit from what I read. It just used the same attack vector utilizing a different method that the fix doesn't mitigate.
THe flaw is in the reflections. Since metadata changes unmutable things like strings you can have safety but this hack goes around it and manipulates it. Get rid of that feature?
THen you break applications and mission critical business apps. Of course from what I see they all use older versions of the language where this feature is not used but neverless it is the joys of supporting a large complex thing where the users have a psychotic episode if anything changes and want it frozen yet demand to get security patches.
This is the reason many programs will not run on Windows 7 as MS had to make it secure starting with Vista. Corporate users just kept using XP and ignoring all the security issues.
Old IE may suck for rendering websites properly compared to new IE, but what it does do right is come with corporate oriented tools including this, called security zones.
Just go under Internet Options in control panel and disable java in the internet zone and set it up in the intranet zone. Fairly easy stuff. You can push this through Acitive Directory as well if you are at work to protect your users.
I assume no one but a few minecraft users use it at home so uninstall it. Chrome and FIrefox should have it disabled by default.
Of your corp must need ot then downgrade to Java6 which is not effected by the latest exploits and disable it in your browser except for whitelisted sites in your intranet zone in IE.
Oracle appearently cant code their way out of a paperbag but Sun wrote Java 6. Not to say that release is secure but at least less flaky and doesnt have the same flaw as 7.
Java is a better language and is a real platform while javascript is well javascript. I feel people do not like apps in browsers and want a browser. Javascript can manipulate elements on a page. Not with java. It was bolted on a felt foreign. I got modded down to 0 already for this, but I will say it again. Developers love java but its users hate it.
Flash is all pretty and fast. Java is slloow to load up and butt ugly and the fonts are not even opentype for LCD screens. Eclipse uses a special api that is not even included in the swing or awt apis to make it look somewhat native.
It has nothing to do with our hate for IE from that era.
I think if MS succeeded it would have helped java even if we ended up with java applets that ran only in IE 6. We have that problem today with crappy vbscript and html elements but we moved on. Java failed to perform for what people wanted.
JavaFX came too little too late and flash is what really hurt as well as ajax and greatly improved JIT for javascript. I would hate to think what would happen if flash never existed and we had to run java applets on an IPhone are something crazy.
Sun was more concerned with hurting MS and being terrified about java applets not running on solaris than optimziing it with better tools that integrated into each OS or with a fat binary that could run on multiple operating systems. That doomed as an application language too. That my friend is why Sun lost.
Except that there are still a good chunk of websites that still use Java. For example, Minecraft and RuneScape to name two.
And sure you -can- have it be fully client side but it doesn't always work. Many schools and workplaces will filter out.exe file extensions but will let you run in-browser applications just fine.
The web is not just things developed in 2013, but also for things developed back in 1997. And as such, it needs to be at least partially backwards compatible with older technologies.
The real issue here isn't about browser plugins but it is the terrible management of Java by Oracle. There is nothing that inherently should make Java more unsafe than a generic web browser, the problem is unlike most web browsers, Oracle has time and time again proven to be unable or unwilling to fix gaping holes in their programs. Even when they do create a fix they still try to bundle in crapware such as the "Ask" toolbar and switch my default search engine to Ask. A slimeball tactic that should be reserved for those making keygens and the like.
There is nothing that makes Java any more insecure than JavaScript except for Oracle. Rather than simply dropping a useful element of the web, we should pressure Oracle to do what a software firm should do: fix the bugs!
I can replace java with IE 6 too. We can then spend time optimizing for IE 6 and doubling your costs 200% right and making adding hacks for Netscape 4.7? My argument is it is time to move on. Yes not everyone has the state of the art Chrome browser with the latest OS on an iCORE7. However the web is not like 1997 except for www.craigslist.com and it is time to move on. Where do you draw the line with support but also moving foward and making something pretty and functional?
Java does not belong on the browser anymore. Like I said old apps probably written for IE 6 in quirks mode. Drop them in modern apps. Otherwise when offices switch to tablets in a few years they wont be able to run the apps anyway.
Java is a classic case of great engineering mixed with bad management. Many evolutionary things got killed throughout history where a competitor comes in.
Sun blew it well before Oracle's acquisition. Not having a native fat binary compiler is one. Before someone jumps at me for making at all soooo non platform compliant I have to say how many are willing to open cmd prompt and type java x? You need a very expensive $$$$$ compiler to have a.exe where the code is written in java. This gave the perception java was slow 12 years ago.
Hell there are many on slashdot today in 2013 who actually think Java is as slow as an interpreter as basic. Users feel that way too because of the classes that need to be recompiled every time a java applet loads. Your site needs to work within 4 seconds are they leave in this modern broadband era. On dialup I guess that was more expected back when java applets were more popular.
By refusing to integrate with the host OS you have things that look and act odd on non native. Sun insisted on re-inventing its own wheel for everything Java does so it doesn't work quite right with the other apps on the users system. It is why Steve jobs pulled the plug on java and stop supporting it. It ruined the mac experience.
JavaFX came many many years late with no authoring tools. Instead Sun wrote a plugin for Adobe Flash. Really?! So why use java then when I can just use Flash and compile it with that? After all I already purchased it and everyone uses it right? Stupid...
Java 7 is terrible and many like myself keep Java 6. Google Android SDK wont run on anything newer than Java 6 and it is turning to its own version of IE 6 of the java language.
Can it be saved? Who knows? My guess is no and that is not a bad thing. Java belongs as a language to write Android applets and servlets in while HTML 5 and CSS 3 for the gui.
At least ActiveX has signed controls as of IE 6 SP1 which the browser will refuse to run anything unsigned.
With java it executes full privileges from any source! This means an infected ad server can host it via a link and it runs automatically with no user interaction! Most users of WindowsXP run as administrator too which means full privileges.
In essence it is too powerful as JVM is whole OS really that can do it. TO the user it is non native looking, slow, and does not integrate with Windows so it is an odd child. Meanwhile ajax can directly manipulate all the elements of the page. Not be something totally foreign inside something. That is how it beat Java.
It is time to lay the java plugin to rest. I pray Oracle wont keep fucking re-enabling JRE plugins on all browsers and do something like JavaFX 2.0 and think they can still win this while we see more exploits.
You are looking at it as a developer. Not a user nor IT support professional. Java is: -butt ugly -take 30 seconds to a minute to load -can't run on mobile platforms - fonts and widgets are not native and look weird. Are LCD fonts in yet? Ubuntu and debian have the old school non font hinting which is a horrible eye sore - Security risk - Not every computer has it and those that do have different versions - No one uses it that much
Users hate it and think they are ugly and look like something from the 1980s while Flash is all pretty and fancy and loads instantly. People do not want applications in browsers. They use applets for that on their phones or tablet operating systems hence why Windows 8 was made whether you hate it or not. The browser is for simple logic and a gui platform.
You may feel the web is horribly wrong but I.T. loves it via the cloud and salesforce.com apps. No need to install software on 5,000 computers anymore.
Unfortunately the answer to that is socialism and that wont happen with the tea party nuts running things in the Republican party today. It is easier to close some bad schools and transfer a few to the rich than force employers to pay a livable wage or pay taxes (most big ones do not) to pay for such an endeavor.
Slashdot Mirror
As long as IE ships with Windows, it will always have a significant market share because of companies that simply do nothing.
That's the kind of company that can't hold its high value employees. Makes for a good short.
I will make the same tired arguments that have been made for 10 years. When you have a $2,000,000 peoplesoft installation that only works in IE 6 and java 5 will you dare to approach the PHB cost accountants at work and say you should throw that $2,000,000 away because Chrome is sooo cool!! Go do it? ... while the whole department is on the floor laughing at you then say .... "I will walk if you make me use that ancient browser one day longer!!" PHB: Uh ok. Do not let the door slame your ass on the way out!
When you graduate college or work in anything but a small business you see IE everywhere. One to throw a bitch fest, yell at Oracle, SAP, IBM, and other enterprise vendors.
They are finally supporting Firefox 3.6, but anything above 4+ they wont certifiy as it changes every 6 weeks. So IE it is!
Also yell at Mozilla? Only IE has group policy objects, active directory integration, and other things where you can push a IE update to 90,000 workstations across 5 continents with ease. Have you managed thousands of PCs before? Only IE has this.
Until Mozilla wakes up the enterprise will constantly always pick IE.
I second that. MMOs have big cult followings among women.
Women are just different. They are social beings. They want to integrate people and technology into their already existing lives. Not use it to get away as a stress reliever like men. The fact you need downtime makes them resentful. However if sheis included like in Wow has an appeal.
Which site is that if you do not mind asking?
IE 8 seems a little earlier. Especially if you have business users. Even on the internet many sites still work better with IE 8 including Slashdot. Yes, they have standards, but when they see a string that says IE they feed old IE code.
Maybe slashdot.org can fix the comment threading in IE 9?
For the exact same reason, I had been wondering why people tried/are still trying to kill Java instead of improving it altogether. And I came up with a pretty obvious conclusion that people are selfish, egotistic, and arrogant. If we knew how to cooperate with the others, the world would definitely be a much better place.
We have HTML 5 and ajax to do just that. We do not own Adobe or Oracle. That is the difference. Java needs to die too. It had its chance but Sun and Oracle never improved it outside the 1990s and it is time to move on to something we own and control instead.
Funny
I view Adobe as the evil money grab trying to destroy internet standards, GPL, hobbiests, and free operating systems.
Why? In 1999 Linux/FreeBSD was the ulitmate web development platform. So many tools and a cutting edge Netscape and Mozilla browsers, codecs (yes distros including them back then), and php modules galore. Today employers demand Adobe flash, adobe dreamweaver, adobe photoshop, adobe preimere, for any web development job. You need WIndows or Mac only to learn web development. Windows preferable as IE is standard.I have to pirate as I wont blow $2,000 to learn things and the cool tools of linux have to run on an ISP or another computer. That is messed up if you ask me.
Flash is terrible, insecure, hardware acceleration non existent on many platforms, non mobile friendly, and controlled by a corporation. HTML 5 is coming a long way but its a start.
Go launch IE 6 and try to use it? That is my cite.
On VMWare IE 6 crashes on the default MSN news page within 30 seconds. Pretty bad if you ask me since MS makes it and even www.microsoft.com doesn't work properly in IE 6 anymore.
The rule I use is 5%. If you spend 50% of your time with 5% of the market it is time to ignore them and put a polite banner with links to later browsers asking them to upgrade to enjoy the latest features.
You need to draw the line somewhere and 40% to 50% of all customers who use IE 9/10 who do not support this standard is batshit crazy! IE 6 is another matter. IE 7 is going out of support too as it approaches the 5% number too.
Let me know how slashdot works with IE 9 on changing the comment threshold? I have to go into IE 8 compatibility mode to change it.
Also, IE 9 64 bit uses the older javascript compiler as in the IE 6 -8 one! Maybe that is why it worked for you? THat or it is not optimized and is as slow as IE 8 according to some users. If you must use IE 9 use the 32-bit version even though slashdot and a few other sites are not fully compatible with it yet. Hence, why the corps are sticking with IE 8.
IE 9 is much improved overall even if it has issues with some sites still.
Firefox has 32-bit support still because of plugins. Flash is one that you mentioned. Others are corporate oriented ones that are starting to replace their activeX counterparts. Many of them still use Java 1.4 as that is what Cisco routers seem to prefer which is one of the thorns that is keeping hte beancounters from leaving Windows XP. Those things cost hundreds of thousands to replace.
Chrome and IE 10 interact fine if you follow the link.
Yes, we can bash MS for being evil but the grandparent is right. It is an empty standard with no implementation and is a nightmare as a result.
If Mozilla supports it then we will use that. Netscape and IE supported non w3c standards back in the day aka quirks mode even though they did do things only each browser would do.
It looks like we might have another modern quirkmode in this if everyone supports it.
I had FIrefox work just fine with Sharepoint 2010.
It makes me wonder how complex is sharepoint and what does it actually do? If you need a consultant to set it up and programmers to fiddle with it then of course teh guys at work only know IE7 and IE 8 would write the vbscript.
The ones I got to work were compliant and I sincerely hope it is not as complex as I mentioned above as this was Microsofts answer to wikipedia. It should be simple theoretically with templates right?
IE is still the most popular browser in the world.
No it isn't, it fell off that perch years ago. Nobody uses Microsoft's browser by choice. Face it, Microsoft's sun is setting. Don't let the chair hit you on the way out.
I think statistics say otherwise. Remember, most people do not hang out on slashdot and are into browsers. Ask any webmaster here who writes internet sites that average people or businesses use? They will say 50 to 60% still use IE. It still sets the standards if you want to be paid by anyone to attract users sadly.
Remember these users are grandmas, 40 year old moms, accountants in the office with locked computers, redneck Joe Six Packs, and little kids at home whose teacher showed them that little blue e = internet. Not techies. Which browser do you think they use? I give you a little hint? It is the one they are familiar with that they use at work or school. Sometimes they geeky smart nephew will introduce this foxfire thingie for many ... but not everyone.
Lets say people who are not grayhairs who hate change and are set in their ways decide to switch to Chrome? IE drops to say 10% of users! Can we still ignore it? Still a NO. Unless you want to use my example of telling 1 out of 10 customers to go screw themselves to a client who is paying you the answer is you support it. 5%? Then maybe you can put a polite banner with a link to Chrome or Firefox then.
Arstechnica, zdnet, slashdot, and engadget are a tiny minority. It is not like the 1990s when the internet was a geek thing.
Lets hope MS has technical reasons for this as Skype would be better support the w3c standard?
Does anybody even care what Microsoft does these days? They even seem to fail at being evil, though they still try.
Yep. IE is still the most popular browser in the world. g.statcounter.com may say otherwise but others such as netappliances say 55% of everyone on the net including tablet and phone users use Internet Explorer.
Regardless you can't ignore it. If IE wont support it you can't use it PERIOD. Until IE gets below 5% marketshare no sane business will dare cut them off. IT would be like owning a restaurant and telling 1 out of 10 users to leave and go fuck themselves. You will be out of business fast.
So this is a big deal if MS is being evil or maybe brilliant if the standard actually works and Mozilla copies it. FYI webkit supports this standard too as Chrome already works with it as webRTC still has major hurdles.
Chrome also supports the standard and can already interface with IE 10. WebRTC is not standardized as no one can agree on the exact implementation yet and no 2 browsers can work with it the same. Microsoft did submit this to the W3C with its implementation.
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can care to comment?
Due to Microsofts past with IE 6 and also them buying Skype I do feel a little skeptical. Is WebRTC really that difficult compred to the other one?
No, but Pasco County in the Tampa area is considered one of the highest lightning capitals in the world. During monsoon season hail and dangerous lightning occurs practically every other day. THat can knock out data easily. I would not be surprised if lightning hits around the facility at least 30 or more times for the summer months.
Virginia gets them too but not so much as it is surrounded by warm 80 degree water on one side in the summer, but not 88 degree water on all 3 sides spawning these thunderstorms.
California obviously would be the best for inclement weather., but has an extremely expensive costs for land, rent, and labor with high taxes and earthquakes.
I was under the impression it utilized the same exploit from what I read. It just used the same attack vector utilizing a different method that the fix doesn't mitigate.
THe flaw is in the reflections. Since metadata changes unmutable things like strings you can have safety but this hack goes around it and manipulates it. Get rid of that feature?
THen you break applications and mission critical business apps. Of course from what I see they all use older versions of the language where this feature is not used but neverless it is the joys of supporting a large complex thing where the users have a psychotic episode if anything changes and want it frozen yet demand to get security patches.
This is the reason many programs will not run on Windows 7 as MS had to make it secure starting with Vista. Corporate users just kept using XP and ignoring all the security issues.
Old IE may suck for rendering websites properly compared to new IE, but what it does do right is come with corporate oriented tools including this, called security zones.
Just go under Internet Options in control panel and disable java in the internet zone and set it up in the intranet zone. Fairly easy stuff. You can push this through Acitive Directory as well if you are at work to protect your users.
I assume no one but a few minecraft users use it at home so uninstall it. Chrome and FIrefox should have it disabled by default.
Of your corp must need ot then downgrade to Java6 which is not effected by the latest exploits and disable it in your browser except for whitelisted sites in your intranet zone in IE.
Oracle appearently cant code their way out of a paperbag but Sun wrote Java 6. Not to say that release is secure but at least less flaky and doesnt have the same flaw as 7.
In addition the security hole with the aslr being disabled was also fixed last stable release 12.10.
This year ATI also stopped releasing a driver every month and instead focused on QA before certifying drivers.
ATI really is improving as they try to stay alive. Bravo indeed and my next card will be an ATI.
Not anti MS at all.
Java is a better language and is a real platform while javascript is well javascript. I feel people do not like apps in browsers and want a browser. Javascript can manipulate elements on a page. Not with java. It was bolted on a felt foreign. I got modded down to 0 already for this, but I will say it again. Developers love java but its users hate it.
Flash is all pretty and fast. Java is slloow to load up and butt ugly and the fonts are not even opentype for LCD screens. Eclipse uses a special api that is not even included in the swing or awt apis to make it look somewhat native.
It has nothing to do with our hate for IE from that era.
I think if MS succeeded it would have helped java even if we ended up with java applets that ran only in IE 6. We have that problem today with crappy vbscript and html elements but we moved on. Java failed to perform for what people wanted.
JavaFX came too little too late and flash is what really hurt as well as ajax and greatly improved JIT for javascript. I would hate to think what would happen if flash never existed and we had to run java applets on an IPhone are something crazy.
Sun was more concerned with hurting MS and being terrified about java applets not running on solaris than optimziing it with better tools that integrated into each OS or with a fat binary that could run on multiple operating systems. That doomed as an application language too. That my friend is why Sun lost.
Except that there are still a good chunk of websites that still use Java. For example, Minecraft and RuneScape to name two.
And sure you -can- have it be fully client side but it doesn't always work. Many schools and workplaces will filter out .exe file extensions but will let you run in-browser applications just fine.
The web is not just things developed in 2013, but also for things developed back in 1997. And as such, it needs to be at least partially backwards compatible with older technologies.
The real issue here isn't about browser plugins but it is the terrible management of Java by Oracle. There is nothing that inherently should make Java more unsafe than a generic web browser, the problem is unlike most web browsers, Oracle has time and time again proven to be unable or unwilling to fix gaping holes in their programs. Even when they do create a fix they still try to bundle in crapware such as the "Ask" toolbar and switch my default search engine to Ask. A slimeball tactic that should be reserved for those making keygens and the like.
There is nothing that makes Java any more insecure than JavaScript except for Oracle. Rather than simply dropping a useful element of the web, we should pressure Oracle to do what a software firm should do: fix the bugs!
I can replace java with IE 6 too. We can then spend time optimizing for IE 6 and doubling your costs 200% right and making adding hacks for Netscape 4.7? My argument is it is time to move on. Yes not everyone has the state of the art Chrome browser with the latest OS on an iCORE7. However the web is not like 1997 except for www.craigslist.com and it is time to move on. Where do you draw the line with support but also moving foward and making something pretty and functional?
Java does not belong on the browser anymore. Like I said old apps probably written for IE 6 in quirks mode. Drop them in modern apps. Otherwise when offices switch to tablets in a few years they wont be able to run the apps anyway.
Java is a classic case of great engineering mixed with bad management. Many evolutionary things got killed throughout history where a competitor comes in.
Sun blew it well before Oracle's acquisition. Not having a native fat binary compiler is one. Before someone jumps at me for making at all soooo non platform compliant I have to say how many are willing to open cmd prompt and type java x? You need a very expensive $$$$$ compiler to have a .exe where the code is written in java. This gave the perception java was slow 12 years ago.
Hell there are many on slashdot today in 2013 who actually think Java is as slow as an interpreter as basic. Users feel that way too because of the classes that need to be recompiled every time a java applet loads. Your site needs to work within 4 seconds are they leave in this modern broadband era. On dialup I guess that was more expected back when java applets were more popular.
By refusing to integrate with the host OS you have things that look and act odd on non native. Sun insisted on re-inventing its own wheel for everything Java does so it doesn't work quite right with the other apps on the users system. It is why Steve jobs pulled the plug on java and stop supporting it. It ruined the mac experience.
JavaFX came many many years late with no authoring tools. Instead Sun wrote a plugin for Adobe Flash. Really?! So why use java then when I can just use Flash and compile it with that? After all I already purchased it and everyone uses it right? Stupid ...
Java 7 is terrible and many like myself keep Java 6. Google Android SDK wont run on anything newer than Java 6 and it is turning to its own version of IE 6 of the java language.
Can it be saved? Who knows? My guess is no and that is not a bad thing. Java belongs as a language to write Android applets and servlets in while HTML 5 and CSS 3 for the gui.
At least ActiveX has signed controls as of IE 6 SP1 which the browser will refuse to run anything unsigned.
With java it executes full privileges from any source! This means an infected ad server can host it via a link and it runs automatically with no user interaction! Most users of WindowsXP run as administrator too which means full privileges.
In essence it is too powerful as JVM is whole OS really that can do it. TO the user it is non native looking, slow, and does not integrate with Windows so it is an odd child. Meanwhile ajax can directly manipulate all the elements of the page. Not be something totally foreign inside something. That is how it beat Java.
It is time to lay the java plugin to rest. I pray Oracle wont keep fucking re-enabling JRE plugins on all browsers and do something like JavaFX 2.0 and think they can still win this while we see more exploits.
You are looking at it as a developer. Not a user nor IT support professional.
Java is:
-butt ugly
-take 30 seconds to a minute to load
-can't run on mobile platforms
- fonts and widgets are not native and look weird. Are LCD fonts in yet? Ubuntu and debian have the old school non font hinting which is a horrible eye sore
- Security risk
- Not every computer has it and those that do have different versions
- No one uses it that much
Users hate it and think they are ugly and look like something from the 1980s while Flash is all pretty and fancy and loads instantly. People do not want applications in browsers. They use applets for that on their phones or tablet operating systems hence why Windows 8 was made whether you hate it or not. The browser is for simple logic and a gui platform.
You may feel the web is horribly wrong but I.T. loves it via the cloud and salesforce.com apps. No need to install software on 5,000 computers anymore.
Unfortunately the answer to that is socialism and that wont happen with the tea party nuts running things in the Republican party today. It is easier to close some bad schools and transfer a few to the rich than force employers to pay a livable wage or pay taxes (most big ones do not) to pay for such an endeavor.
Sadly I remember stagnation and security issues too when Sun still owned it too.