A province with 90% of the population being Ethnic Abanian is being emptied by the Facist Serbs. The KLA was a response to years of Serbian repression of the majority. So when 90% of the people are only in control of 2/3 of their own territory when the military "reacted" is ridiculous. I don't remember the KLA being in Bosnia, but the Serbs did the same thing there. Besides, you didn't answer Kaa's main point..just because the Serbs lived there 600 years ago does not give them the right to murder and displace the vast majority of the regions populace today. If that was the case, then it would be alright for the Germans to invade Poland, Russia to invade the Ukraine and hell, any one of Celtic blood to invade anyone else in all of Europe (I haven't mentioned the Mongols or the Romans either.).This is nothing more than Serbian nationalism rearing its ugly head, trying to regain the glory days before the Turks arrived, looking to regain the 'Lebansraum' it lost in Kosovo in 1389...it was wrong in WWII and its wrong now.
Maybe if the US and Britain had showed some spine in 1936 or 38, 35 million might have been spared. Milocovic is wrong, he's evil and he must be stopped. If you thinks what he's doing is OK, then you should be stopped too.
Gee, I thought all those arial photos of mass graves were real. I guess I was wrong. I guess all those Kosovar women and children showing up at the border talking about how their husbands and fathers were shot into ditches were lying..I guess they had all that time marching to Macedonia to get their story straight. We won't get the "proof" until the conflict is over and ground troops are in place. Then they will be able to do what my brother did while on tour in Bosnia - stand guard over a UN Forensic Anthropology Team while they exhume human remains for the War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague. Maybe the lack of "proof", as you put it, shows that the NATO action is actually preventing Milosovic from doing what he did in Bosnia - we should keep it up. Besides, I don't know where your from (although I have an Idea) but up here in Canada, support for NATO is actually increasing, not eroding, as it is in most NATO countries.
Serbia is wrong. They are murdering, raping and driving people (who make up the majority of the province - 90%)out of the homes they have had for over 600 years. Whether they kill 100 or 1000000 makes no difference - Serbia is wrong and NATO is trying to stop them. It's just that simple. Maybe some right thinking Serbs should get rid of the War criminal Milosovic and do the right thing.
Lets see. Milosovic's regime is using military force to shoot ethnic Albanians into the mass graves the army forced them to dig (as they also did in Croatia and Bosnia earlier in the decade..I'm not even going into the rape camps...). They are emptying a province of 90+% of its population based soley on their ethnicity, in apparent revenge for a battle the Serbs lost fair and square in 1389 (over 600 years ago!). Now, RedGuard, please explain which part of these actions are "reasonable". Don't give me the "I'm falling for NATO propaganda" crap either...my brother was a UN Peace Keeper in Bosnia and has seen first hand how the Yugoslav government behaves reasonalby(handcuffing soldiers to flag poles as human shields, raping the women in entire villages after shooting all the men into ditches). Milocivic is wrong. He's committing genocide. It just that simple. I say we bomb Serbia into the F***g stone age. Maybe then the next time some petty dictator in Cambodia, or Uganda or Rawanda (or elsewhere) decides to kill a large part of his or her population, they will have to think twice about the consequnces. NATO is doing the Right Thing.
Evil Florishes when good men do nothing.
Apparently not enough of YU domains were shut down if an obvious Serb agent like you can post here..
Uhm, I think the previous poster was refering to some frustration a lot of us out here are feeling. People keep saying that Kevin M. is some kind of totally inoccent guy who was doing no harm and now has the full brunt of the US government procecuting him. But He's not. He broke into the systems illegally. No question. And he got caught. Spending time imprisoned without due process is a bit disturbing, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be in jail... Look at what he did. You can't say he didn't know breaking in to the Sun computers and copying the source to Solaris was illegal (not that ignorance is an excuse anyway), because he did. He made a consious effort to break the law, he got caught and now he is paying for it. Complain to high heaven that detention without trial is wrong, but "Free Kevin"?!? I don't think so. He broke the law, he got caught and he even admits it. The government's method of procecution may be wrong but who they are going after isn't. A lot of the people at 2600 and other places conveniently over look that. Thats what makes us up set. I'd love to see some coverage of this story thats not completely biases one way or the other...
Everyone is wondering 'why' but ask the jocks and the other popular kids - they know. I've seen them on CNN, and CBC and 60 minutes. They talk about how brave they were and how strange the killers were and how they figured something like this was going to happen. But not one reporter asked the one question that would have been my first (as a former children's mental health worker) - "Did any of you pick on or humiliate these guys?" I'm willing to bet none of them would have put up their hands, which is a lie. Why would they lie about this? They know exactly how cruel and humiliating they were to these 2, and they know if they admit it they will get the blame they deserve. So why not lie...the media and the other adults are blaming Doom and the Internet and Marilyn Manson anyway. They might as well continue to look like the victims and get all the attention, after all, they didn't get to be the cool and popular kids by telling the truth (especially to adults in authority). I don't condone killing, but considering the kind of society we foster in our high schools (especially more rural schools), I'm not surprised by this at all. I wonder what took so long. I can sure understand WHY they did what they did...and so can all those jocks who abused them.
Hey, what does a Canadian use to do full training? Anything by Farley Mowat or Robert Service I suppose....(Maybe a good imitation of Foster Hewit anouncing "THE GOAL")
Lets face it, Doom and movies don't make people do violent things. These kids learned a long time ago that escalating violence and not accepting the differences of others is a way to have power and be popular. In some ways its how to be accepted. Where did they learn this? At risk of blaming the victims, probably from some of the very people they killed. All reports indicate that they had been physically and mentally abused for years by their peers at school - the jocks and the cool people. They were verbally acosted, physically beaten and pushed against lockers and publically humiliated at every opportunity. Their answer was to band together and force their hate on to everyone that was different - both their regular abusers and minorities. After all, the jocks and cool people were cool because they picked on them, centered them out, some how hated "them". If they Hate minorities, they will be like them, they may be able to gain the social power that their abusers have. With this social situation simmering for years, these 2 individuals finaly snapped. They may have modeled their fashions, and ultimate behaviour on a few movies and video games, but the desire to kill and the need for acceptance and power were there long before that. Had these two found solace and power in Disney movies and games, we might still have 15 dead people, with the killers dressed as mice. My point here is the movies and games didn't MAKE them disturbed enough to kill, they were that disturbed first and choose their symbolism later. If The Basketball Diaries or Doom had never been made, this tragedy would still have happened. So who is to blame? Everyone in Littleton and at that school - kids, parents, teachers - who regularly watched this kind of abuse and did nothing to stop it, chalking it up to "that's the way kids are". Whether they actively picked on these kids or just stood by and watched without doing anything, they contributed to the creation of these monsters. I certainly don't condone their actions. These two were misfit psychopaths who choose an extreme method to lash out at their tormenters. Its wrong. But considering the culture of elitism and exclusivity which we have fostered in our schools across North America, why is anyone surprised this is happening? A human can only be pushed so far - adding teen angst and hormones to the mix only makes it worse. This is a far more likely and reasonable explanation than Doom or The Matrix causing this - only we don't want to accept our role in creating this so we blame games and movies. People are asking "Where were these two boys parents? How come they didn't know?What values did they teach their kids?" These are valid points. But is just as valid to ask the same thing of the parents of the "popular" kids "Just who taught these kids that it was ok to abuse and publicly humiliate other kids? Where were their parents?"
Something to think about that makes more sense than Doom...
Just what Linux needs, more *nix snobbery. I won't go into the car analogy we've all heard it...but that's my arguement. Next time your car doesn't work, ask your mechanic to fix it. If your mechanic says "No you should know how to do this your self, you should have to learn the intricacies of the O2 sensor and the exhaust manifold before you can even drive a car...." you'll know how everyone else feels when they listen to your arguements about Linux. Your contempt for the "average user" is both sad and disturbing.
Well, yeah, you and I would do this, we're programmers. I'm not saying get rid of the CLI, since obviously people like us will use it. But most computer users (note they are USERS not programmers, sysadmins or any other techies)are not like us. I suspect there would be few instances when they would want to do this. Even if there was, why not create a GUI interface to this command for the average person? What's the harm? You and I won't use it, but it might attract a lot of people away from MS and to Linux. Your example is also one of the easier commands in DOS. The MV example from the previous post is a far more common operation with a far more complicated CLI syntax, and no matter what kind of power it may have over drag and drop/cut and paste, normal people are going to choose the easier way. Why do you think MS and other GUI interfaces (MAC, NExTStep etc)currently own the desktop? Are they more efficient or technically superior? No, they are just easy for secretaries, grandmothers and stock clerks to use. I can hear the nay-syers saying "But Windows really isn't easy to use!". Why not ask your brother the cop what he'd rather use..or your sister the hairdresser. For some people perception is reality. A tree does not fight the wind, it bends gently to its force. Why not create a GUI that can do some of the things we like the CLI for so, common users can use them if they choose. A GUI could then be almost as powerful as a CLI AND easy for every non-technical person to use...and we'd still have the CLI for us to use. Win-Win. Then users could have a CHOICE (that is what OSS and Linux are all about, right?) of which interface to use, both very powerful. Then when you ask a store clerk "which would you rather use, this easy GUI which can do a,b,c or this easy GUI which can do a,b,c,v,n,d,g...? And you don't have to learn crytic commands and you can use it right away and..oh yeah..its free! and if you want to use the CLI, well you can do that too..." I think the chioce would be real easy then.
"in macos or windoze (if you don't know dos) you have to go open up windows till you get to the original location of the file, then close all those or minimize them or something, and drag the file through nested layers of windows to the new place you want your file. "
Um try opening your drive window, going to options and selecting the open folers in the same window option (under Win 95). Then you can open two version from my computer or explorer and drag and drop or cut and paste, or copy and paste. All with a few mouse clicks and no typing. I can teach a 4 year old to do that, or a monkey or even my Luddite mother. That's what makes it "user friendly" - its easy to use. being.5 seconds faster is not going to sell this:
Do you really think your mother or grandmother will want to learn this? If you do, get out of the lab. No one out side a university or server room uses a CLI to do work anymore and all the hoping in the world is going to make them go back (yeah, dos died as mainstream, commonly used os about 1994). Come on, get off your high horse, not everyone is a CS major. They just want to use their e-mail. Why should they need to learn the computer equivelant of latin to do that?
90% of the world outside thelab does not use CLI. Get used to it.
GOOD!!! TOO MANY DAMN PEOPLE!!!
on
Killer Asteroid
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Wow, I guess that other posting about hackers being anti-social misfits was right - you sure seem to prove the point.
Conrad Black? I would expect no less! For all the conservatives and Ayn Rand Freaks on/., this guy is a text book example of the worst qualities of "capitalism". When you see how he treats people and conducts business, its easy to see why a lot of Canadians vote for the NDP! (That's the New Democratic Party for our American friends, and don't bother to ask - they are a semi-socialist left wing party up here in Canada. They have had many provincial governments but no federal government yet. Many of their party platforms have become Unemployment Insurance and our socialized health care system after they were "borrowed" by the other governing parties up here. There is no equivelant party in the US - even Democrats are only Liberals up here. Think Jerry Brown with a little more sense).
This guy has done more to convert people to socialism than Lenin could have dreamed of (although I'm sure Conrad didn't want to!).
FYI, the National Post is a new newspaper up here in Canada which is trying to be something like the New York Times/ Globe and Mail (Toronto) and USA Today/ Toronto Sun combined - High brow conservative and populist clap trap in the same rag. Nobody in the Great White North reads them or cares what they think...niether should you.
They're nortorious for missing major stories and getting their facts wrong. Most of us wouldn't let our dogs take a dump on this paper...
My point is that your idea of capitalism is premised on the idea that individuals can own property privately. Many countries and cultures do not beleive this, yet still beleive in trade and commerce (as the Native Americans did, thank you). But, as was the case in Nicaragua, when people voluntarily created coops, even communes, that directly competed with the single, absolute owner of a piece of land idea of private property, the then US government labelled them as "Communist". I agree that in this situation it was simply a new, collective form of free market, voluntarily entered into by people (remember those 2 elections).But it wasn't EXACTLY like the economic model of the US. Therefore it was Communist and therfore evil. None was even given a chance to succeed or fail on their own merits. Hardly a chance to freely choose your economic system is it?
BTW capitalism is an economic system, not a social system. A capatalist, free market economy can probably coexist nicely with a collective social framework. Unfortunately, the Ronald Reagans of the world didn't thinks so so we've never had a chance to see it.
"Does this apply to personal freedoms as well? Is free speech the right way for the US and most "Western" countries but not for ALL countries? If political torture in China is the "clutural norm" does that make it ok? "
We're talking about economic models, not rights. Like it or not, they are separate. Look at the Universal Decalration of Human Right. It does a great job of keeping the two separate. I can still have freedom of speech in country or culture with collective property (land) ownership. Capitalism does not ensure human rights - see the current situation in South Korea, the Marcos regime in the Philipines or the old South Africa (even China at the moment is very unfree socially with a burgeoning capitaist market). All of these places had a great deal of capitalism and no human rights. The concerns I raised were that the definition of capitalism being the exact same as the system in the US, and not taking into account the history, experience, culture and desire of any other country. As history has shown, if its not the same as the States, its wrong and needs to be wiped out (labelling it communist is a good way to do it). I think that approach is wrong...
The AC above is completely right...kids watch this stuff because the parents aren't around to tell them not to. Most of this is aimed at adults and kids should not watch it by themselves. If you watch this with your kids and talk to them about it they won't act like this or thinks its ok to act like this.
My question is, exactly how did an unstable 14 year-old get a hold of the gun? (and before we get into a Gun Control vs NRA flamewar, I'm talking about physical security - shouldn't the parents have the gun locked up in one place with a trigger lock and the ammo locked in a separate place? How come he could get to it? once we argue this basic point then we can wonder the wider question of why guns are so accessible in the US a deranged 14-year-old seems to have no trouble getting them). I'm sorry for their pain, but the parents need to take responsiblilty for what happened at that school - they created the killer. Maybe one of the victims families should sue them.
I agree. That's how the civil system up here in Canada works, and the number of lawsuits is greatly reduced. No one sues unless they have a better than average chance of winning. Even the lawyers up here will tell their clients this.
As for this particular case, I'd have to say there is no basis for the suit. As a former mental health worker, I worked with 6 - 12 year old kids who were violently agressive (top 2% of behaviour disorders in NA). It has been my experience and research that kids don't watch shows or play games and then become violent, they are already violent and become attracted to these games. How do they become violent? They learn from their families/caregivers that violence solves their problems. They can learn this from such things as spankings all the way to physical or sexual abuse. The problem with Carneal is not the games he played, or the sites he visited or the TV he watched, its the fact that he either didn't know or didn't want to know they weren't real. When I play a shoot'em up game , I know its a fantasy, and not real. Kids and adults like Carneal are already angry and violent and let the games etc feed their pshycotic violent fantasies to the point where they make them real. The point is they had these tendancies before they watched the games, or movies. The logic of the parent's agruement doesn't hold up: If all serial killers own a copy of "The Collector", all people who own a copy of "The Collector are serial killers. Therefore, ban "The Collector" and we won't have any serial killers.
Now this doesn't make sense now does it? These guys were killers before they bought the book and it fed their already existing fantasies. The book did not make them killers.
I suppose we should ban the Bible because David Koresh and those abortion doctor murders read it. It must have made them into killers....
Expalain to us how hydrogen, the most abundant element in the known universe, which is highly reactive with oxygen to produce combustion power and water vapor as the "exhaust", is simply a storage medium? You ought to talk to your friend at Ballard a little more...
Didn't the Sandinistas win 2 elections which were deemed free and fair by the UN and the Organization of American States? That didn't seem to stop Ronny Reagan fighting a war against them with former secret police thugs. He did to Nicaragua what he eventually did to the USSR...bleed their economies dry with military spending. No, it's not the fault of the West their economies are in shabbles...
Despots had their power because they were backed by the US/Chiquita Banana. Whenever a third world country tried to make things right they were brutally repressed and their democratically elected leaders murdered by the CIA (Salvadore Allende). Guess what? There are a lot of places where collectivism (what you brand "socialistic") is the cultural norm and has been for centuries. Seems some in the US need to realise collective society and free enterprise are not mutually exclusive (Sweden, Norway, Canada to name a few close examples)....Farmers Co-ops and Credit Unions make a lot of money in these countries and they are NOT owned by the government but by the members. Unfortunately this doesn't match the property ideas of the US and is therfore COMMUNISM!!! (which it isn't). And the US can do ANYTHING to fight communism! The American way is the right way for the US and most "Western" countries...that doesn't mean it's the right economic way for ALL countries. Unfortuantely, when dealing with superpowers, there hasn't been much choice.
"Evil flourishes when good men (sic) do nothing...." I suppose if you had your way, the ovens would still burn in Germany, since "saving" people from evil rulers is obviously none of your business.
Maybe if the Americans had their present attitude in 1938-39, "Schindler's List" would never have been made.
Besides, offering technology to help a culture that WANTS it and the war in Kosovo are two completely unrelated things. I don't remember reading in the article where the Marines would go in and help the Army Corps of Engineers wire up villages.
I've never been a big fan of American foriegn policy in the past, but apart from humanitarian aims, I don't see what else can be gained from the conflict in the Balkans right now...unless there's an oil field under Pristina I don't know about. It's about time they did the right thing instead of standing aside with their "not our problem" attitude (as they did in Bosnia and Rawanda).
Sounds to me that your upset about the "american" part of this. I wonder how upset you'd be if Steven Hawking or some Finnish engineer came up with the idea...
A different twist on this...I remember a few weeks back on TLC their was a show about the kinds of "cracking" and miss-information attacks the US military was conducting on Iraq during the Gulf War. I wonder if this kind of thing is going on agains Serbia/Yugoslavia? I really wonder what kind of infrastructure Serbia has which would be vulnerable to this kind of attack. It would be ironic that a country with very few computer and technological resources would be better protected in modern warefare BECAUSE of this technical inferiority not superiority. Has anyone heard of any expliots against the Milocvic (sp?) regime? I'm not sure that this is even possible....
I find it odd that people are saying "Windows code is terrible" and it "bloat" when no-one has read it (They haven't released it yet!). I agree we can infer from the general performance of almost any flavour of Windows that something is wrong in there, but until we can see inside we will never know exactly what it is.
And don't you find the idea of looking in there intriguing? You say Windows is poorly written and designed (which it may well be) but you won't know until you look. It is just as likely that SOME of the code is very well written, designed and even documented. How would it not be useful to take some of these good parts of Windows and add them to Linux and some of the best features of Linux and add them to Windows? Wouldn't everybody win then? What kind of operating system might evolve from that?
Remember, one of MS greatest problems is that they have many disparate development teams writing code that doesn't always have the same goals in mind, and the directions these teams are travelling sometimes bring them into collision with each other. This could be an opportunity to fix some things properly because we WANT to fix them, with no time pressure, not because they HAVE to be cobbled together in order to get the product to market.
Personally, i find this a very exciting prospect which will make the quality of all software in general better.
Yeah, its a literary device called sarcasm. I do not honestly believe that the lack of gun control in the US is the reason for it's birth rate. I also don't believe the US is some how superior due to their reproductive control than the rest of the world (as the previous poster seemed to indicate).
"Ahem. If the US population growth was being held to such low rates by gun accidents/attacks/muggings, you'd be dead by now. 66% of the public would be dead too. "
No I wouldn't. Read my nick...I'm Canadian. We already have gun control...and one of the lowest crime rates in the western world (a lot less than down you way).
My entire point was that attacking the person when you really know nothing about them is ethically and logically wrong. Spreading lies and inuendo only serves to make the entire movement look bad by association (re-read Areapagetica by John Milton to see my point..sorry, no spell check on/. yet). Thank you for proving it again...
As for astonishment at political rhetoric on/., perhaps I can point you to the numerous Ayn Rand freaks that like to post here when ever somebody even brings up a post about the merits of Open Source...
As for the MS open source possiblility... sound like a challenge to me. To afraid to pick up the gauntlet?
Dear God! Has Anti-MS paranoia and FUD gone this far? I don't like big Bill's business practices either, but I have NO reason to impune him personally. Painting him as a Racist, Elitist megalomaniac bent on genocide is going a bit too far. Saying that giving money to charities to help control population in the third world (read this as birth control and education, NOT forced sterilization and abortion) is genocide is like saying donating to Planned Parenthood to give out condoms is advocating child murder! That's incredibly ridiculous. You are indulging in an Ad Homenim (sp?) attack and if you have ever studied logic, you'd know it is an illogical arguement. Attack his business, the quality of his products and the validity of his public statements but don't spread falsehoods and attack Gates on such an unfounded personal level. People usually resort to this tactic if they are unintelligent and can't win an arguement fairly or they know the other person is correct and thus cannot win the arguement. Which are you? Bill Gates is a nasty business person with questionable business practices and strong arm tactics. He is no Slobadon Milosovic.
As for your assertion that the third world become more like the US because "people reproduce at a moderate rate" - I suspect the US population growth rate has more to do with a LACK of Gun Control than an abundance of Birth Control ( or of a society with better control of their sexual urges!).
Four, if your interested, I can pass you the Win code and you can get an idea of the class structure and inner workings. Don't try to port it though...its about 9 months old and it's MFC!:0>
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A province with 90% of the population being Ethnic Abanian is being emptied by the Facist Serbs. The KLA was a response to years of Serbian repression of the majority. So when 90% of the people are only in control of 2/3 of their own territory when the military "reacted" is ridiculous. I don't remember the KLA being in Bosnia, but the Serbs did the same thing there. Besides, you didn't answer Kaa's main point..just because the Serbs lived there 600 years ago does not give them the right to murder and displace the vast majority of the regions populace today. If that was the case, then it would be alright for the Germans to invade Poland, Russia to invade the Ukraine and hell, any one of Celtic blood to invade anyone else in all of Europe (I haven't mentioned the Mongols or the Romans either.).This is nothing more than Serbian nationalism rearing its ugly head, trying to regain the glory days before the Turks arrived, looking to regain the 'Lebansraum' it lost in Kosovo in 1389...it was wrong in WWII and its wrong now.
Maybe if the US and Britain had showed some spine in 1936 or 38, 35 million might have been spared.
Milocovic is wrong, he's evil and he must be stopped. If you thinks what he's doing is OK, then you should be stopped too.
Gee, I thought all those arial photos of mass graves were real. I guess I was wrong. I guess all those Kosovar women and children showing up at the border talking about how their husbands and fathers were shot into ditches were lying..I guess they had all that time marching to Macedonia to get their story straight.
We won't get the "proof" until the conflict is over and ground troops are in place. Then they will be able to do what my brother did while on tour in Bosnia - stand guard over a UN Forensic Anthropology Team while they exhume human remains for the War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague.
Maybe the lack of "proof", as you put it, shows that the NATO action is actually preventing Milosovic from doing what he did in Bosnia - we should keep it up.
Besides, I don't know where your from (although I have an Idea) but up here in Canada, support for NATO is actually increasing, not eroding, as it is in most NATO countries.
Serbia is wrong. They are murdering, raping and driving people (who make up the majority of the province - 90%)out of the homes they have had for over 600 years. Whether they kill 100 or 1000000 makes no difference - Serbia is wrong and NATO is trying to stop them. It's just that simple.
Maybe some right thinking Serbs should get rid of the War criminal Milosovic and do the right thing.
Lets see. Milosovic's regime is using military force to shoot ethnic Albanians into the mass graves the army forced them to dig (as they also did in Croatia and Bosnia earlier in the decade..I'm not even going into the rape camps...). They are emptying a province of 90+% of its population based soley on their ethnicity, in apparent revenge for a battle the Serbs lost fair and square in 1389 (over 600 years ago!).
Now, RedGuard, please explain which part of these actions are "reasonable". Don't give me the "I'm falling for NATO propaganda" crap either...my brother was a UN Peace Keeper in Bosnia and has seen first hand how the Yugoslav government behaves reasonalby(handcuffing soldiers to flag poles as human shields, raping the women in entire villages after shooting all the men into ditches).
Milocivic is wrong. He's committing genocide. It just that simple. I say we bomb Serbia into the F***g stone age. Maybe then the next time some petty dictator in Cambodia, or Uganda or Rawanda (or elsewhere) decides to kill a large part of his or her population, they will have to think twice about the consequnces.
NATO is doing the Right Thing.
Evil Florishes when good men do nothing.
Apparently not enough of YU domains were shut down if an obvious Serb agent like you can post here..
Uhm, I think the previous poster was refering to some frustration a lot of us out here are feeling. People keep saying that Kevin M. is some kind of totally inoccent guy who was doing no harm and now has the full brunt of the US government procecuting him. But He's not. He broke into the systems illegally. No question. And he got caught. Spending time imprisoned without due process is a bit disturbing, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be in jail...
Look at what he did. You can't say he didn't know breaking in to the Sun computers and copying the source to Solaris was illegal (not that ignorance is an excuse anyway), because he did. He made a consious effort to break the law, he got caught and now he is paying for it. Complain to high heaven that detention without trial is wrong, but "Free Kevin"?!? I don't think so.
He broke the law, he got caught and he even admits it. The government's method of procecution may be wrong but who they are going after isn't. A lot of the people at 2600 and other places conveniently over look that. Thats what makes us up set. I'd love to see some coverage of this story thats not completely biases one way or the other...
Everyone is wondering 'why' but ask the jocks and the other popular kids - they know. I've seen them on CNN, and CBC and 60 minutes. They talk about how brave they were and how strange the killers were and how they figured something like this was going to happen. But not one reporter asked the one question that would have been my first (as a former children's mental health worker) -
"Did any of you pick on or humiliate these guys?"
I'm willing to bet none of them would have put up their hands, which is a lie. Why would they lie about this? They know exactly how cruel and humiliating they were to these 2, and they know if they admit it they will get the blame they deserve. So why not lie...the media and the other adults are blaming Doom and the Internet and Marilyn Manson anyway. They might as well continue to look like the victims and get all the attention, after all, they didn't get to be the cool and popular kids by telling the truth (especially to adults in authority).
I don't condone killing, but considering the kind of society we foster in our high schools (especially more rural schools), I'm not surprised by this at all. I wonder what took so long. I can sure understand WHY they did what they did...and so can all those jocks who abused them.
Hey, what does a Canadian use to do full training? Anything by Farley Mowat or Robert Service I suppose....(Maybe a good imitation of Foster Hewit anouncing "THE GOAL")
hehehe
Lets face it, Doom and movies don't make people do violent things. These kids learned a long time ago that escalating violence and not accepting the differences of others is a way to have power and be popular. In some ways its how to be accepted. Where did they learn this? At risk of blaming the victims, probably from some of the very people they killed.
All reports indicate that they had been physically and mentally abused for years by their peers at school - the jocks and the cool people. They were verbally acosted, physically beaten and pushed against lockers and publically humiliated at every opportunity. Their answer was to band together and force their hate on to everyone that was different - both their regular abusers and minorities. After all, the jocks and cool people were cool because they picked on them, centered them out, some how hated "them". If they Hate minorities, they will be like them, they may be able to gain the social power that their abusers have. With this social situation simmering for years, these 2 individuals finaly snapped. They may have modeled their fashions, and ultimate behaviour on a few movies and video games, but the desire to kill and the need for acceptance and power were there long before that. Had these two found solace and power in Disney movies and games, we might still have 15 dead people, with the killers dressed as mice. My point here is the movies and games didn't MAKE them disturbed enough to kill, they were that disturbed first and choose their symbolism later. If The Basketball Diaries or Doom had never been made, this tragedy would still have happened.
So who is to blame? Everyone in Littleton and at that school - kids, parents, teachers - who regularly watched this kind of abuse and did nothing to stop it, chalking it up to "that's the way kids are". Whether they actively picked on these kids or just stood by and watched without doing anything, they contributed to the creation of these monsters.
I certainly don't condone their actions. These two were misfit psychopaths who choose an extreme method to lash out at their tormenters. Its wrong. But considering the culture of elitism and exclusivity which we have fostered in our schools across North America, why is anyone surprised this is happening? A human can only be pushed so far - adding teen angst and hormones to the mix only makes it worse.
This is a far more likely and reasonable explanation than Doom or The Matrix causing this - only we don't want to accept our role in creating this so we blame games and movies. People are asking "Where were these two boys parents? How come they didn't know?What values did they teach their kids?" These are valid points. But is just as valid to ask the same thing of the parents of the "popular" kids "Just who taught these kids that it was ok to abuse and publicly humiliate other kids? Where were their parents?"
Something to think about that makes more sense than Doom...
Just what Linux needs, more *nix snobbery. I won't go into the car analogy we've all heard it...but that's my arguement. Next time your car doesn't work, ask your mechanic to fix it. If your mechanic says "No you should know how to do this your self, you should have to learn the intricacies of the O2 sensor and the exhaust manifold before you can even drive a car...." you'll know how everyone else feels when they listen to your arguements about Linux. Your contempt for the "average user" is both sad and disturbing.
Well, yeah, you and I would do this, we're programmers. I'm not saying get rid of the CLI, since obviously people like us will use it. But most computer users (note they are USERS not programmers, sysadmins or any other techies)are not like us. I suspect there would be few instances when they would want to do this. Even if there was, why not create a GUI interface to this command for the average person? What's the harm? You and I won't use it, but it might attract a lot of people away from MS and to Linux.
Your example is also one of the easier commands in DOS. The MV example from the previous post is a far more common operation with a far more complicated CLI syntax, and no matter what kind of power it may have over drag and drop/cut and paste, normal people are going to choose the easier way.
Why do you think MS and other GUI interfaces (MAC, NExTStep etc)currently own the desktop? Are they more efficient or technically superior? No, they are just easy for secretaries, grandmothers and stock clerks to use.
I can hear the nay-syers saying "But Windows really isn't easy to use!". Why not ask your brother the cop what he'd rather use..or your sister the hairdresser. For some people perception is reality.
A tree does not fight the wind, it bends gently to its force. Why not create a GUI that can do some of the things we like the CLI for so, common users can use them if they choose. A GUI could then be almost as powerful as a CLI AND easy for every non-technical person to use...and we'd still have the CLI for us to use.
Win-Win.
Then users could have a CHOICE (that is what OSS and Linux are all about, right?) of which interface to use, both very powerful. Then when you ask a store clerk "which would you rather use, this easy GUI which can do a,b,c or this easy GUI which can do a,b,c,v,n,d,g...? And you don't have to learn crytic commands and you can use it right away and..oh yeah..its free! and if you want to use the CLI, well you can do that too..."
I think the chioce would be real easy then.
"in macos or windoze (if you don't know dos) you have to go open up windows till you get to the original location of the file, then close all those or minimize them or something, and drag the file through nested layers of windows to the new place you want your file. "
.5 seconds faster is not going to sell this:
/some/ridiculously/long/path/to/my/file /the/other/really/long/path/where/i/now/want/my/fi le"
Um try opening your drive window, going to options and selecting the open folers in the same window option (under Win 95). Then you can open two version from my computer or explorer and drag and drop or cut and paste, or copy and paste. All with a few mouse clicks and no typing. I can teach a 4 year old to do that, or a monkey or even my Luddite mother. That's what makes it "user friendly" - its easy to use. being
"mv
Do you really think your mother or grandmother will want to learn this? If you do, get out of the lab. No one out side a university or server room uses a CLI to do work anymore and all the hoping in the world is going to make them go back (yeah, dos died as mainstream, commonly used os about 1994). Come on, get off your high horse, not everyone is a CS major. They just want to use their e-mail. Why should they need to learn the computer equivelant of latin to do that?
90% of the world outside thelab does not use CLI. Get used to it.
Wow, I guess that other posting about hackers being anti-social misfits was right - you sure seem to prove the point.
Conrad Black? I would expect no less! /., this guy is a text book example of the worst qualities of "capitalism". When you see how he treats people and conducts business, its easy to see why a lot of Canadians vote for the NDP! (That's the New Democratic Party for our American friends, and don't bother to ask - they are a semi-socialist left wing party up here in Canada. They have had many provincial governments but no federal government yet. Many of their party platforms have become Unemployment Insurance and our socialized health care system after they were "borrowed" by the other governing parties up here. There is no equivelant party in the US - even Democrats are only Liberals up here. Think Jerry Brown with a little more sense).
For all the conservatives and Ayn Rand Freaks on
This guy has done more to convert people to socialism than Lenin could have dreamed of (although I'm sure Conrad didn't want to!).
God, where's Ed Broadbent when you need him?
FYI, the National Post is a new newspaper up here in Canada which is trying to be something like the New York Times/ Globe and Mail (Toronto) and USA Today/ Toronto Sun combined - High brow conservative and populist clap trap in the same rag. Nobody in the Great White North reads them or cares what they think...niether should you.
They're nortorious for missing major stories and getting their facts wrong. Most of us wouldn't let our dogs take a dump on this paper...
My point is that your idea of capitalism is premised on the idea that individuals can own property privately. Many countries and cultures do not beleive this, yet still beleive in trade and commerce (as the Native Americans did, thank you). But, as was the case in Nicaragua, when people voluntarily created coops, even communes, that directly competed with the single, absolute owner of a piece of land idea of private property, the then US government labelled them as "Communist". I agree that in this situation it was simply a new, collective form of free market, voluntarily entered into by people (remember those 2 elections).But it wasn't EXACTLY like the economic model of the US. Therefore it was Communist and therfore evil. None was even given a chance to succeed or fail on their own merits. Hardly a chance to freely choose your economic system is it?
BTW capitalism is an economic system, not a social system. A capatalist, free market economy can probably coexist nicely with a collective social framework. Unfortunately, the Ronald Reagans of the world didn't thinks so so we've never had a chance to see it.
"Does this apply to personal freedoms as well? Is free speech the right way for the US and most "Western" countries but not for ALL countries? If political torture in China is the "clutural norm" does that make it ok? "
We're talking about economic models, not rights. Like it or not, they are separate. Look at the Universal Decalration of Human Right. It does a great job of keeping the two separate. I can still have freedom of speech in country or culture with collective property (land) ownership. Capitalism does not ensure human rights - see the current situation in South Korea, the Marcos regime in the Philipines or the old South Africa (even China at the moment is very unfree socially with a burgeoning capitaist market). All of these places had a great deal of capitalism and no human rights.
The concerns I raised were that the definition of capitalism being the exact same as the system in the US, and not taking into account the history, experience, culture and desire of any other country. As history has shown, if its not the same as the States, its wrong and needs to be wiped out (labelling it communist is a good way to do it). I think that approach is wrong...
Don't you?
The AC above is completely right...kids watch this stuff because the parents aren't around to tell them not to. Most of this is aimed at adults and kids should not watch it by themselves. If you watch this with your kids and talk to them about it they won't act like this or thinks its ok to act like this.
My question is, exactly how did an unstable 14 year-old get a hold of the gun? (and before we get into a Gun Control vs NRA flamewar, I'm talking about physical security - shouldn't the parents have the gun locked up in one place with a trigger lock and the ammo locked in a separate place? How come he could get to it? once we argue this basic point then we can wonder the wider question of why guns are so accessible in the US a deranged 14-year-old seems to have no trouble getting them). I'm sorry for their pain, but the parents need to take responsiblilty for what happened at that school - they created the killer. Maybe one of the victims families should sue them.
I agree. That's how the civil system up here in Canada works, and the number of lawsuits is greatly reduced. No one sues unless they have a better than average chance of winning. Even the lawyers up here will tell their clients this.
As for this particular case, I'd have to say there is no basis for the suit. As a former mental health worker, I worked with 6 - 12 year old kids who were violently agressive (top 2% of behaviour disorders in NA). It has been my experience and research that kids don't watch shows or play games and then become violent, they are already violent and become attracted to these games. How do they become violent? They learn from their families/caregivers that violence solves their problems. They can learn this from such things as spankings all the way to physical or sexual abuse. The problem with Carneal is not the games he played, or the sites he visited or the TV he watched, its the fact that he either didn't know or didn't want to know they weren't real. When I play a shoot'em up game , I know its a fantasy, and not real. Kids and adults like Carneal are already angry and violent and let the games etc feed their pshycotic violent fantasies to the point where they make them real. The point is they had these tendancies before they watched the games, or movies. The logic of the parent's agruement doesn't hold up:
If all serial killers own a copy of "The Collector", all people who own a copy of "The Collector are serial killers. Therefore, ban "The Collector" and we won't have any serial killers.
Now this doesn't make sense now does it? These guys were killers before they bought the book and it fed their already existing fantasies. The book did not make them killers.
I suppose we should ban the Bible because David Koresh and those abortion doctor murders read it. It must have made them into killers....
Someone help me out...I beleive I read (here on /.? maybe?) that Honda will be introducing a production Hydrogen Fuel cell car in the 2002-2004 range.
Maybe I'm wrong?
Expalain to us how hydrogen, the most abundant element in the known universe, which is highly reactive with oxygen to produce combustion power and water vapor as the "exhaust", is simply a storage medium? You ought to talk to your friend at Ballard a little more...
Didn't the Sandinistas win 2 elections which were deemed free and fair by the UN and the Organization of American States? That didn't seem to stop Ronny Reagan fighting a war against them with former secret police thugs. He did to Nicaragua what he eventually did to the USSR...bleed their economies dry with military spending. No, it's not the fault of the West their economies are in shabbles...
Despots had their power because they were backed by the US/Chiquita Banana. Whenever a third world country tried to make things right they were brutally repressed and their democratically elected leaders murdered by the CIA (Salvadore Allende).
Guess what? There are a lot of places where collectivism (what you brand "socialistic") is the cultural norm and has been for centuries. Seems some in the US need to realise collective society and free enterprise are not mutually exclusive (Sweden, Norway, Canada to name a few close examples)....Farmers Co-ops and Credit Unions make a lot of money in these countries and they are NOT owned by the government but by the members. Unfortunately this doesn't match the property ideas of the US and is therfore COMMUNISM!!! (which it isn't). And the US can do ANYTHING to fight communism!
The American way is the right way for the US and most "Western" countries...that doesn't mean it's the right economic way for ALL countries. Unfortuantely, when dealing with superpowers, there hasn't been much choice.
"Evil flourishes when good men (sic) do nothing...."
I suppose if you had your way, the ovens would still burn in Germany, since "saving" people from evil rulers is obviously none of your business.
Maybe if the Americans had their present attitude in 1938-39, "Schindler's List" would never have been made.
Besides, offering technology to help a culture that WANTS it and the war in Kosovo are two completely unrelated things. I don't remember reading in the article where the Marines would go in and help the Army Corps of Engineers wire up villages.
I've never been a big fan of American foriegn policy in the past, but apart from humanitarian aims, I don't see what else can be gained from the conflict in the Balkans right now...unless there's an oil field under Pristina I don't know about. It's about time they did the right thing instead of standing aside with their "not our problem" attitude (as they did in Bosnia and Rawanda).
Sounds to me that your upset about the "american" part of this. I wonder how upset you'd be if Steven Hawking or some Finnish engineer came up with the idea...
A different twist on this...I remember a few weeks back on TLC their was a show about the kinds of "cracking" and miss-information attacks the US military was conducting on Iraq during the Gulf War. I wonder if this kind of thing is going on agains Serbia/Yugoslavia? I really wonder what kind of infrastructure Serbia has which would be vulnerable to this kind of attack. It would be ironic that a country with very few computer and technological resources would be better protected in modern warefare BECAUSE of this technical inferiority not superiority.
Has anyone heard of any expliots against the Milocvic (sp?) regime? I'm not sure that this is even possible....
I find it odd that people are saying "Windows code is terrible" and it "bloat" when no-one has read it (They haven't released it yet!). I agree we can infer from the general performance of almost any flavour of Windows that something is wrong in there, but until we can see inside we will never know exactly what it is.
And don't you find the idea of looking in there intriguing? You say Windows is poorly written and designed (which it may well be) but you won't know until you look. It is just as likely that SOME of the code is very well written, designed and even documented. How would it not be useful to take some of these good parts of Windows and add them to Linux and some of the best features of Linux and add them to Windows? Wouldn't everybody win then? What kind of operating system might evolve from that?
Remember, one of MS greatest problems is that they have many disparate development teams writing code that doesn't always have the same goals in mind, and the directions these teams are travelling sometimes bring them into collision with each other. This could be an opportunity to fix some things properly because we WANT to fix them, with no time pressure, not because they HAVE to be cobbled together in order to get the product to market.
Personally, i find this a very exciting prospect which will make the quality of all software in general better.
Yeah, its a literary device called sarcasm. I do not honestly believe that the lack of gun control in the US is the reason for it's birth rate. I also don't believe the US is some how superior due to their reproductive control than the rest of the world (as the previous poster seemed to indicate).
/. yet). Thank you for proving it again...
/., perhaps I can point you to the numerous Ayn Rand freaks that like to post here when ever somebody even brings up a post about the merits of Open Source...
"Ahem. If the US population growth was being held to such low rates by gun accidents/attacks/muggings, you'd be dead by now. 66% of the public would be dead too. "
No I wouldn't. Read my nick...I'm Canadian. We already have gun control...and one of the lowest crime rates in the western world (a lot less than down you way).
My entire point was that attacking the person when you really know nothing about them is ethically and logically wrong. Spreading lies and inuendo only serves to make the entire movement look bad by association (re-read Areapagetica by John Milton to see my point..sorry, no spell check on
As for astonishment at political rhetoric on
As for the MS open source possiblility... sound like a challenge to me. To afraid to pick up the gauntlet?
Dear God!
Has Anti-MS paranoia and FUD gone this far? I don't like big Bill's business practices either, but I have NO reason to impune him personally. Painting him as a Racist, Elitist megalomaniac bent on genocide is going a bit too far. Saying that giving money to charities to help control population in the third world (read this as birth control and education, NOT forced sterilization and abortion) is genocide is like saying donating to Planned Parenthood to give out condoms is advocating child murder! That's incredibly ridiculous.
You are indulging in an Ad Homenim (sp?) attack and if you have ever studied logic, you'd know it is an illogical arguement. Attack his business, the quality of his products and the validity of his public statements but don't spread falsehoods and attack Gates on such an unfounded personal level. People usually resort to this tactic if they are unintelligent and can't win an arguement fairly or they know the other person is correct and thus cannot win the arguement. Which are you?
Bill Gates is a nasty business person with questionable business practices and strong arm tactics. He is no Slobadon Milosovic.
As for your assertion that the third world become more like the US because "people reproduce at a moderate rate" - I suspect the US population growth rate has more to do with a LACK of Gun Control than an abundance of Birth Control ( or of a society with better control of their sexual urges!).
Grow up.
Four,
if your interested, I can pass you the Win code and you can get an idea of the class structure and inner workings. Don't try to port it though...its about 9 months old and it's MFC!:0>