Truth hurts eh? I love Linux but it is a bitch to set up, especially for the regular user. So if Linux is to expand beyond programmers, sysadmins and hackers this has got to change.
You realize the "54-40 or fight" reference refers to a 19th century desire of Americans to own the continent upto 54 -40' North Latitude, don't you? You realize most of that is and always will be CANADA, don't you? So I guess Linus is as much a communist as I am an American...not very bloody much!
I can make all sorts of fun of you Americans, however, since according to recent school surveys, you can't find your own country on a map, let alone mine (or Finland apparently).
Boy, do I feel safe knowing you guys have the bomb! (NOT).
Take the point. People use Office because in many cases it is the only game in town. But it wasn't that long ago that WordPerfect was the top of the heap. So MS Office may be the de facto industry standard now, but that may not be true in a few years. Currently some of the features in Office make it a very attractive package for many businesses (the tight integration and the relative ease of use). Unfortunately they have to run it on Windows (the Mac version is incredibly expensive by comparison). And yes, it has a lot of unessasesary crap (flight simulator in Excel? what the hell is that all about?) and features that are annoying, even if they are easy to get rid of (like that parerclip thing-guy - all that stuff should at least default off, not on).
So...we're a bunch of programmers, all spouting the OSS doctorine, what are we gonna do about it? Maybe we can take all the good features of Office, combine it with the good features of Linux, make it easily configurable to anyone's skill level and taste (some people actually do use that anoying paperclip guy!!If you don't strip it down to the bare minimum, make it look better and sell it for a hell of a lot less than $300 (and that's for the standard edition..tack on andother $150 for Access with developer add-ons!)Hell, maybe even give it away. Then watch people and business stampede to Linux. Just because everyone uses something bad today, doesn't mean they want to continue to use it. Quality of the software still counts for something (remember, poeple stampeded to Word/Office because WP 6.x was a terrible wordprocessor/environment) and that may be why some people are sticking with it now. Build something better and create a real "Killer App" for Linux the business community will want and then price it right (dirt cheap or free-like-beer) and beat MS at their own game.
Whining about how you can't turn off the Auto-Correct feature isn't gonna do it.
This P-code (similar to java bytecodes but very Intel specific - required the vb.exe runtime)was what MS products were written in a few years ago becasue, as someone else mentionsed, a lot of MS programs are written in either C or VB (ironically VC++ is the exception - versions 5.X and up are writtin in C++ with that wonderful, lean library called MFC). VB stopped generating P-code exes after VB 4 (hence the reason you don't need the VB Runtime to run alot of programs now - remember the 'vb.exe not found' error we always got). VB now generates native code exes. So, I would expect that it would be quite difficult to "port" (MS is not known for it's good separation of UI and functionality as in the MVC architecture). To do this for many applications they would probably have to port the whole win32/MFC ball of wax to Linux. I suspect if they do anything, they would rewrite the application completely for Linux. I don't know if I'd want win32/MFC ported to Linux (even though that's what I work in every day - I still don't like it much) - that reminds me of a virus invading a healthy cell to take it over and spread itself to other healthy cells. Screw MS office - write a better one for Linux so no one will want to use it even if it is ported. Like StarOffice maybe....
Hey I agree with the first AC. Grow up. I don't think all Linux developers are elitist jerks, you shouldn't assume all Windows developers glorify the "proprietary" wary of programming.
Since when did Linux/Unix/BeOS etc corner the market on Open Source software? Just because I don't have access to the Win32/95/98/NT source code doesn't mean I don't like to write free (as in speech, not neccesarily beer) software. Even the great and glorious GIMP is Open source on Win32! I write Windows because I have to (its my job) - I write Linux because I LIKE to. I may like Linux as a better operating system but programming is programming - if you're good at it, it doesn't take long to learn a new system... Unless of course some elitist jerk doesn't want to teach me. I which case I'll stick with Windows...Not as good an operating system but the people are a lot friendlier (be honest, for most people it's not even that bad an operating system ("CAST!!!!"))
Here's a wacky idea - if Linux gets popular enough, MS may have no choice but to move to Open Source as well and we'll all finally get to see the source for those undocumented APIs..Ah, I can dream can't I?
Now before you flame me, think back to when you were learning...who was that guy/girl that finally made you realize what a pointer was and how to use it? What if they had your attitude? You could be working at McDonalds right now...
How much will this cost?
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Space Hotel
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The costs will be dropping from $10000 to $1000 per lbs in the next two to four years because of the Venture Star (X-33) project. This is still quite expensive but think of the competition in the business (telecom/satellite industry) this will create. Any real good competitive environment will lower the prices and speed up technical innovation (are you listening Bill?). Observe the change in price and technical quality of computer hardware over the past 10 years. Observe the drop in cost of internet access/services over the past 5 years (the more people use it the cheaper it got, the cheaper it got the more people used it etc). Why shouldn't the same thing happen with space travel and tourism? Hey maybe the next step is a mining mission by Inco to one of those near earth asteroids with trillions of dollars in minerals (gold,zinc,nickel etc), to get more money to lower the costs even more. I would expect this to quite common in 10 to 20 years (maybe sooner). Now, If we can figure a way to be sure this newly found wealth is distibuted and shared fairly among all countries and peoles, we may have something...
I agree with you...really. My point is that it doesn't matter if the tools don't work when the system goes belly up...we all expect that of any system that goes belly up. But for MOST users MOST of the time, the system is not down (be honest...I'm working on an Oracle 8/NT project where Oracle has crashed 4-5 times and NT itself has only crashed 2 in 4 months. I know a Linux box could be even better, but in the big picture the difference between 2 crashes in 4 months and 0 isn't that big a deal). So, for most of the time you can use the cool tools. That means, however, they have to exist for your system and they have to be of a good quality. Case in point - Most professional graphics designers use Adobe Photoshop on a Mac (as my wife does, she in advertising). For most of them they used the Mac not because they like the OS but because until fairly recently it was only available on the Mac platform. They would need to split between a Mac for the design and a Win 95/NT machine for the business stuff (spreadsheets, databases, wordprocessing etc). Well now Photoshop is available on Win and when it comes time to retool the office, would you rather buy 1 new machine or 2? Most of these people (and their bosses) will put up with the occassional crash or lock up if all the tools they need can be found on one platform, since they will be useable MOST of the time (this is what happened in my wife's department -print advertising- they switched to NT Workstations so the designers could do image manipulation, electronic page layout and administrative duties on the same machine at the same time). So what does Linux have to offer the user who is NOT running a mission critical, enterprise level server (web or otherwise) and who is NOT a sysadmin? If Linux is only a server OS, then Win will own the desktop for long time to come, buggy or not. Unfortunately, with a few exceptions, there are no good tools for the average user. So what good is a great tool box if you have no tools to put in it? It can run FOREVER without a crash and that will mean Jack if I can't find any useful software to run on it. Even if my current tool box gets locked up or crashes every now and again, I'll put up with the annoyance because most of the time I have a wide variety and choice of tools to use - the roof only leaks if its raining and most of the time its not raining. Make Linux really competitive with Win in the area most users really care about - quality applications. Better yet, create something totally useful that they can't get on Win and people will flock to Linux. They may get a great operating system as a bonus!
PS. In case you hadn't noticed, most people reboot daily because they want to, not because the system crashes - they shut down their machines for the night and turn them on again the next morning for work. Doing this one or two extra times a week (even a day!)is not really that big a deal. So telling these people they may not have to reboot for months, or that an OS doesn't take up as much disk space or memory isn't going to sell them on it... Telling them they can do their work faster, easier and with better quality will.
"Let's face it, almost no one buys a computer system solely for the pleasure they get from using the Mac OS interface, or for the theoretical power they could get from a Linux installation. Where once choice was as simple as "I want an Atari" or "I want an IBM," today's consumers buy computers to read email, surf the Web, compose memos in a word processor, create graphics, or crunch spreadsheets. However well made a toolbox you buy, what really matters are the tools you fill it with. "
I believe this writer makes a great point - Linux may be a better system technically but people will put up with having to reboot a few times a week (or when the system crashes) because all the tools the need(or want) and more is available to them on Windows. So long as Linux has very few applications to draw most ordinary people to using it (apart from it being more difficult to install etc). We should also be concentrating on making open source apps for everyone to use (hell even make OSS versions of commercial software). Make them cheaper and better than the commercial versions and bingo - the whole world will want Linux on their dedsktops or servers.
And before I get flamed, I know about GIMP and StarOffice (I wonder how many people outside \. do?). We need more application of this or better quality.
I have no problem with malloc() and free(), that's not what I was getting at. I'm talking about a coding "style" in which new and delete (or malloc()or free()) are wrapped in a class (or struct I suppose) where the allocation is done automatically by the constructor and deallocation is done by an object's destructor. You can then treat objects requiring dynamic allocation as local objects whose memory is automatically returned to the heap when they go out of scope. I actually agree with you that bad programmers cause memory leaks, mostly because the "forget" to delete a pointer (that was my point). This is just one of many TECHNIQUES that can be employed by programmers to make it easier to eliminate memory leaks. It has nothing to do with how malloc() and free() are implimented, only how they are used by the programmer. Couple some of these techniques with some good exception handling (to catch and deal with those "bad_alloc" errors) and you can write some pretty lean and efficient code.
Hell, I can write good code using this style (and the the good old Model-View-Controler pattern) for MS Windows (that's how I earn money to feed my kid). Imagine what it can do on a really good platform....
I was simply pointing out that most of AC's "facts" were not that at all. This is not a "C++ is better than C" post, I use them both (I do like C++ better, admittedly). I simply like people who spout off to atleast know what they are talking about (C is an OO language indeed!!) So: (1) yes I am using Windows at the moment (at work) but that really doesn't mean anything in THIS particular argument (2)I do know how to use them, thank you very much (and I've been doing it for a few years now) (3)I've never had a problem with my compiler
Well aren't YOU cool. Wasn't open source created so that things couldn't be kept proprietory and secret? Sound like you'd be quite happy to keep Linux out of the hands of anyone who isn't an engineer or geek. Try reading the GPL again. I suppose anyone who can't speak English is also a -excuse me- "Retard"? (after all they must be damn near neanderthal if they can't under stand a "simple" OS like UNIX or Linux!). Guess what? A lot more people than geeks like you use computers and alot of them like to "point and drool" as you so elegantly put it. Isn't OSS about having a CHOICE? Don't you rant on here so we (that is all humans, not just the ones with pocket protectors) can have a CHOICE other than MS? If you keep Linux as your little secret, hard to understand and install system that only you know how to use, isn't that just going to keep MS on top of the heap? If you want to beat MS, then Linux must be for everyone, including kids, clerks, offices workers, parapaligics, blacks, hispanics, women and,yes, even people who are mentally challenged (like Downs Syndrome, Autism etc)? Don't they deserve tho have a CHOICE in the type of OS and software they use, aquire or (gulp) buy? Or is that privelige reserved for Techno-Snobs like you?
Maybe if you made a system that had BOTH a GUI and command line interface so you could CHOOSE which one you wanted to use, and it was stable (as we know Linux is) and easy to use, you might not get those "Morons" calling you at the help desk...no one would have to call you!
But I guess then you would have no one to belittle in order to make you feel big and important and powerful. You were picked on quite a bit in high school, weren't you?
As I am NOT an American (and actually quite proud of that fact) I look at tripe like this and just shake my head. Its people with your attitude that keep intelligent people out of the US (if anyone was truly a "liberal" or as we like to say in the Great White (because of the snow and nothing else pin head) North, "left-wing", the LAST place they would go to is America). It's the governemt...Linux is a Communist conspiracy!... buddy wake up! People like you voted for the NAZI's because they had "good ideas" (they blamed their problems ond sombody else, too). This discussion is about "hackers" and "suits" (whatever those terms really mean) and how we can all get along and promote Linux/Open Source Software as an alternative kind of market/economy (unrestrained capitalism is just as bad as totalitarian communism), one that's fair to everyone who works in it and make quality products for people to consume (as opposed to MS...). One that's free, but not so "free" that people are exploited or left out(since that's not really freedom, now is it? Wait a minute, where have I heard this idea before? oh yeah! John Locke! Wasn't he a commie?). Welcome the "suits" and business in - but not the same old business with the same old practices - be brave and invent something new. I'd rather live in country run by "female public servants", pay high taxes but have good roads, free healthcare and safe streets than in ANY country where you could be taken even remotely seriously. (Hey, I already do!)
By the way, I hope you don't have access to diesel fuel, fertilizer and a Ryder truck.....
Love, a Schlocky Nieghbour to the North (like you could find it on a map anyway)
Enough bickering...Lets work on this! UI ideas that break out of the "Window" box in more ways than one. If this can make Linux/other OSes easy for the physically challenged to use, then that's all the niche market I need to work on(Sorry Bill, I don't like your Ad!)
Thanks for dropping a little ray of reality in here Nick...do I feel stoopid.
Duh, C++ has been standardized since Novembber of 97 by ANSI. The difference between pre-ANSI C++ and ANSI Standard C++ is night and day. Obviously you haven't tried it for a while if you don't know this, so I'll be nice. As for you OO comments, I won't dignify that with a response... Okay I will - You're a Moron!
If you program C++ properly, with Smart pointers (see any Design Patterns site or book) and good MVC design, you can have a good quality product with much better memory management (Now don't tell me you NEVER fogotten to free() a malloc()?) and a very small footprint (nothin' like lean mean code!).
Now, what was that you were saying about being a mis-informed idiot?
Hey wasn't Unix invented at AT&T, arguably the biggest bunch of monopolistic "suits" ever (or are you too young to remember what the phone company was like before 1980)? They were even worse than MS today! The beauty about Linux and Open Source in general is that it can be taken over by anyone - "suits" OR techno-snobs ("I'm-better-than-you-cuz-I-use-the-command-line"! ). If you want to keep it hard so no one else can use it, your no better than Uncle Bill keeping it secret so no one can fix/replace it...you're afraid to lose the POWER this "secret" Linux/Unix knowledge gives you over the regular folks out there. Don't they deserve to be freed from the MS yolk? Don't they deserve the benefits of OSS, like you? Apparently your self-imposed "alternative hacker" "cool" lifestyle is more important than REAL FREEDOM for everybody.
Man I've read a lot of posting from "Amish of the Internet" with the "anything but a GUI/Windows" attitude on this site. If the Linux community is like you geeks (and I know it isn't!) it deserves to die out. I want Linux to be a REAL alternative to MS Windows, to get some REAL competition back into the market, to get some REAL quality stuff made out there. And there are some of us here who are going to do it, with a nice GUI interface, that's easy to install and administer and has lots of FREE (or very affordable) OSS software that runs on it. Yeah, lets make it so everyone can be productive and USE software on Linux(not just "hack" it). A bunch of us here are going to do it and there's not a fucking thing you can do about it (after all it is Open source GNU/GPL!)
We're just inviting you along for the ride.... if you had your way, we'd all still be building computers in our garages instead of buying great hardware at pretty cheap prices (I'm sure your too young to remember the '70's - thanks IBM!!!!(they are the suits that looked into a hobby community and created and industry)).
Grow up. Some of us wear suits cuz we HAVE to, not cuz we WANT to...And I still listen to music cuz I like it, not cuz its "alternative" or "cool" or popular.
how about this you damn geeks...again!!!
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Dude.. Apparently 99% of the people who use computers in the real world "point and drool". So I'm guessing all YOU really want is to keep Linux as your own secret club, to keep out kids, grammas and clerks so you can look down your nose at people because they don't know what "chmod" means, or the difference between $ and %. MS Windows may be unstable and crappy but it got popular because its relatively easy to use by most people (including programmers) - and everyone, even you, can use it after a very short time. Linux is much better than Windows and deserves to be used by everybody some day. But until techno snobs like you get over the "I-can-use-a-command-line-I'm-better-than-you" attitude Linux is gonna remain some little backwater OS used by thunder geeks late into the night while Uncle Bill makes another $1 Billion because everyone will buy Win2000 (Win 95 takes 20 minutes to install and I can watch TV and drink a coffee while its doing it, and I can be surfing the net(or playing Quake) 10 minutes after that...How long does Linux currently take? How long will it take if my sister the hairdresser tries to do it?) Do you smell an Amiga OS? Must be my imagination...
Maybe Linux won't be "cool" if everyone can use it.
Grow Up.
Why don't more people here belive this?
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I agree and I've stated it before... Why do some people here belive Linux is only for the initiated few? Keep up the good work Mathew.
As a matter of fact I am a developer...only I develop for the PUBLIC, you know, those millions of people out there beyond the walls of your university lab who use computers for other things besides hacking into \passwd files. I working on a pretty intense Oracle project right now for a government ministry. Perhaps you can get you nose out of the man pages long enough to enlighten me on how I can get a 50 year-old civil servant with a grade 12 education to use the oh-so popular command line to view 12000 meat inspection licences with ease? How about a cashier or hairdresser? A mother at home doing her taxes or reading e-mail? But I guess if none of them can understand "chmod -f" then they can't join your secret club (which appears to be what you really want).
And yes I do develop for Windows...not because I LIKE Windows, but because its really the Only game in town (Apple/Mac is a hermit living in the woods nearby). I would much rather use my talents developing for a better, GUI based platform (GNOME or KDE etc on Linux) so that EVERYONE,yes EVERYONE, can benefit form FSF and Open Source, not just command-line commandos who don't seem to like regular people.
Frankly, if you want to be the "Amish of the Internet" go ahead, that's your choice. What I'm saying is that for the rest of the world, the command line is dead (it died in 1987, didn't you get the memo?) and if it isn't dead, it needs to be killed quickly before it breeds again. Otherwise Linux will never be use by more people than those that frequent this site. You do want everyone to use Linux, don't you?
Then DIE, COMMAND LINE DIE!!!!
When are you gonna realize...
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Opera for Linux
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Check out my post below....
P.S. a 12 Gig hard drive goes for $300 (Canadian!). So unless I intend to run Opera on a Palm Pilot, who cares about footprint? (And before you blow a gasket RAM is even cheaper).
If I didn't read a lot I wouldn't be writing here.. When It come's down to it compliance and speed of page loading etc don't mean dick if the product is not easy to install and use for most people..unless of course you only want it to be used by Linux/Unix hackers. If thats the case, Never Mind.
When are you gonna realize...
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Here Here!! What is a browser used for? Browsing! Who cares if its HTML compliant (which it apparently isn't) if the MDI makes cluttered and hard for the average user to use (an like it or not THAT'S who we are designing for - not nerds like us who hang out in \.). That's all a "Browser War" (remember those?) should really be about. AC #1 above, you remeid me of a guy I knew in University...he loved this alternative band until they got a hit then into the trash they went. I suspect there are people out their who tout Opera not because they think its a real good (quality that is) alternative to other browsers, but because it's NOT one of the other browsers. How many of these same people will be around when Opera is as big as NS or IE? None of them.
If you really use Opera because you beleive its a better product, great keep doing it. Otherwise...
Hey, wake up buddy...like it or not, GUIs are the future of Linux. Maybe not for developers who spend dark hours loving the $ prompt, but for the vast majority of people out there. I'm developing an application under Windoze now and some of our users have problems with the basics of that during UAT...I can't imaging making them try to do some of this database-centred stuff at the command line! This Corel thing is great news if it means more people use the Linux OS and can finally use a desktop GUI which they can configure to match their personality and/or the reason they are using it. My sister the hairdreser wants a good, stable easy to set up and use computer with good software to run her business with. She's not a programmer nor is she very technical. At the moment she has to suffer through the trials an tribualtions of using a Windoze OS since that has a relatively simple GUI with a lot of software she can use (even if she has to reboot every day!). Here's a wacky idea - don't make a Linux desktop that LOOKS and ACTS like Windoze ( ei don't port Win32 to Linux) - make a desktop that is BETTER (looking at any rate)than Windoze and even easier to use (Notice Mac heads I said better looking...even if it is superior and easier to use, the Mac UI is UGLY! in my opinion. Thats whay poeple don't flock to it now in these anti-MS days we are in and why they are flocking to LINUX) Check out The screen shot at Enlightenment Software for an example of what could be done with a good X desktop environment.
If your not creating Linux for Everyone to use and be free from the MS OS strangle-hold, just who are your developing it for?
So, another bunch of whinners doing a diatribe about the evils of people making money. As if Microsoft isn't bad enough with their virtual monopoly on current PC OSes, some lamers in \. decide to take that anger and vent it against a company who is trying to make money with a good product. Lets face it, MS only has the monopoly because it keeps its source code secret..Red Hat, Caldera, SuSE etc do not. If you don't like their way of doing a disto, take the code and make your own. If you think rpm sucks, take the code and write a better version. Then, let the users decide. All I've heard and read in this place is people saying how one disto sucks so they moved to another blah blah blah. This is the best part of Linux.. I hate my Win 95 but what can I change to whenever a new feature or improvment comes out - Nothing?!? So, Red Hat is evil because they chose a creative way to make money from a free OS. I suppose all the developers that are actually EMPLOYEED by RH should live in a box and eat garbage simply because some of you don't think anyone should make money from Linux development (although you'd like everyone to use it). If the OS is free, people should be allowed to make money from selling applications (open source of course), or tech support services. If you want to make "improvments" you can choose to do so because hey, its nice to be able to brag that "I worked on the package to support xxxx" - heck it might even look good on a resume and get you a good job. If you don't want to buy software, don't. Use the freeware...but don't slag others for wanting to get paid to do what they love. Has it occured to anyone that if this kind of in fighting may be just what MS wants? The old divide and conquer?
Most people want quality software that's easy to maintain and easy to use (that means GUI!) and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. They also want some choice in this, whether the software is an OS or a Word Processor. The people who make this software would like to be able to feed their kids while they are at it. Linux is a great opportunity to change the way the software business operates so that programmers and users both win. That's why people ought to be using and programming for Linux - so it takes over an defeats MS.
If you are using Linux so that you can be "Cool", "rad" or "anti-establishment", so you can belong to some snobby club with a secret handshake that makes you feel superior to Windows users or programmers, may I suggest you look up the definition of Open Source again (or GNU or GPL). Nothing wrong with making money as long as your fair about it.
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Truth hurts eh? I love Linux but it is a bitch to set up, especially for the regular user. So if Linux is to expand beyond programmers, sysadmins and hackers this has got to change.
You realize the "54-40 or fight" reference refers to a 19th century desire of Americans to own the continent upto 54 -40' North Latitude, don't you? You realize most of that is and always will be CANADA, don't you? So I guess Linus is as much a communist as I am an American...not very bloody much!
I can make all sorts of fun of you Americans, however, since according to recent school surveys, you can't find your own country on a map, let alone mine (or Finland apparently).
Boy, do I feel safe knowing you guys have the bomb! (NOT).
Sous mon grain, couchon American!
Take the point. People use Office because in many cases it is the only game in town. But it wasn't that long ago that WordPerfect was the top of the heap. So MS Office may be the de facto industry standard now, but that may not be true in a few years. Currently some of the features in Office make it a very attractive package for many businesses (the tight integration and the relative ease of use). Unfortunately they have to run it on Windows (the Mac version is incredibly expensive by comparison). And yes, it has a lot of unessasesary crap (flight simulator in Excel? what the hell is that all about?) and features that are annoying, even if they are easy to get rid of (like that parerclip thing-guy - all that stuff should at least default off, not on).
So...we're a bunch of programmers, all spouting the OSS doctorine, what are we gonna do about it? Maybe we can take all the good features of Office, combine it with the good features of Linux, make it easily configurable to anyone's skill level and taste (some people actually do use that anoying paperclip guy!!If you don't strip it down to the bare minimum, make it look better and sell it for a hell of a lot less than $300 (and that's for the standard edition..tack on andother $150 for Access with developer add-ons!)Hell, maybe even give it away. Then watch people and business stampede to Linux.
Just because everyone uses something bad today, doesn't mean they want to continue to use it. Quality of the software still counts for something (remember, poeple stampeded to Word/Office because WP 6.x was a terrible wordprocessor/environment) and that may be why some people are sticking with it now. Build something better and create a real "Killer App" for Linux the business community will want and then price it right (dirt cheap or free-like-beer) and beat MS at their own game.
Whining about how you can't turn off the Auto-Correct feature isn't gonna do it.
This P-code (similar to java bytecodes but very Intel specific - required the vb.exe runtime)was what MS products were written in a few years ago becasue, as someone else mentionsed, a lot of MS programs are written in either C or VB (ironically VC++ is the exception - versions 5.X and up are writtin in C++ with that wonderful, lean library called MFC). VB stopped generating P-code exes after VB 4 (hence the reason you don't need the VB Runtime to run alot of programs now - remember the 'vb.exe not found' error we always got). VB now generates native code exes. So, I would expect that it would be quite difficult to "port" (MS is not known for it's good separation of UI and functionality as in the MVC architecture). To do this for many applications they would probably have to port the whole win32/MFC ball of wax to Linux. I suspect if they do anything, they would rewrite the application completely for Linux. I don't know if I'd want win32/MFC ported to Linux (even though that's what I work in every day - I still don't like it much) - that reminds me of a virus invading a healthy cell to take it over and spread itself to other healthy cells.
Screw MS office - write a better one for Linux so no one will want to use it even if it is ported. Like StarOffice maybe....
Hey I agree with the first AC. Grow up.
I don't think all Linux developers are elitist jerks, you shouldn't assume all Windows developers glorify the "proprietary" wary of programming.
Since when did Linux/Unix/BeOS etc corner the market on Open Source software? Just because I don't have access to the Win32/95/98/NT source code doesn't mean I don't like to write free (as in speech, not neccesarily beer) software. Even the great and glorious GIMP is Open source on Win32! I write Windows because I have to (its my job) - I write Linux because I LIKE to. I may like Linux as a better operating system but programming is programming - if you're good at it, it doesn't take long to learn a new system...
Unless of course some elitist jerk doesn't want to teach me. I which case I'll stick with Windows...Not as good an operating system but the people are a lot friendlier (be honest, for most people it's not even that bad an operating system ("CAST!!!!"))
Here's a wacky idea - if Linux gets popular enough, MS may have no choice but to move to Open Source as well and we'll all finally get to see the source for those undocumented APIs..Ah, I can dream can't I?
Now before you flame me, think back to when you were learning...who was that guy/girl that finally made you realize what a pointer was and how to use it? What if they had your attitude? You could be working at McDonalds right now...
The costs will be dropping from $10000 to $1000 per lbs in the next two to four years because of the Venture Star (X-33) project. This is still quite expensive but think of the competition in the business (telecom/satellite industry) this will create. Any real good competitive environment will lower the prices and speed up technical innovation (are you listening Bill?). Observe the change in price and technical quality of computer hardware over the past 10 years. Observe the drop in cost of internet access/services over the past 5 years (the more people use it the cheaper it got, the cheaper it got the more people used it etc). Why shouldn't the same thing happen with space travel and tourism? Hey maybe the next step is a mining mission by Inco to one of those near earth asteroids with trillions of dollars in minerals (gold,zinc,nickel etc), to get more money to lower the costs even more.
I would expect this to quite common in 10 to 20 years (maybe sooner). Now, If we can figure a way to be sure this newly found wealth is distibuted and shared fairly among all countries and peoles, we may have something...
I agree with you...really. My point is that it doesn't matter if the tools don't work when the system goes belly up...we all expect that of any system that goes belly up. But for MOST users MOST of the time, the system is not down (be honest...I'm working on an Oracle 8/NT project where Oracle has crashed 4-5 times and NT itself has only crashed 2 in 4 months. I know a Linux box could be even better, but in the big picture the difference between 2 crashes in 4 months and 0 isn't that big a deal). So, for most of the time you can use the cool tools. That means, however, they have to exist for your system and they have to be of a good quality.
Case in point - Most professional graphics designers use Adobe Photoshop on a Mac (as my wife does, she in advertising). For most of them they used the Mac not because they like the OS but because until fairly recently it was only available on the Mac platform. They would need to split between a Mac for the design and a Win 95/NT machine for the business stuff (spreadsheets, databases, wordprocessing etc). Well now Photoshop is available on Win and when it comes time to retool the office, would you rather buy 1 new machine or 2? Most of these people (and their bosses) will put up with the occassional crash or lock up if all the tools they need can be found on one platform, since they will be useable MOST of the time (this is what happened in my wife's department -print advertising- they switched to NT Workstations so the designers could do image manipulation, electronic page layout and administrative duties on the same machine at the same time).
So what does Linux have to offer the user who is NOT running a mission critical, enterprise level server (web or otherwise) and who is NOT a sysadmin? If Linux is only a server OS, then Win will own the desktop for long time to come, buggy or not. Unfortunately, with a few exceptions, there are no good tools for the average user.
So what good is a great tool box if you have no tools to put in it? It can run FOREVER without a crash and that will mean Jack if I can't find any useful software to run on it. Even if my current tool box gets locked up or crashes every now and again, I'll put up with the annoyance because most of the time I have a wide variety and choice of tools to use - the roof only leaks if its raining and most of the time its not raining.
Make Linux really competitive with Win in the area most users really care about - quality applications. Better yet, create something totally useful that they can't get on Win and people will flock to Linux. They may get a great operating system as a bonus!
PS. In case you hadn't noticed, most people reboot daily because they want to, not because the system crashes - they shut down their machines for the night and turn them on again the next morning for work. Doing this one or two extra times a week (even a day!)is not really that big a deal. So telling these people they may not have to reboot for months, or that an OS doesn't take up as much disk space or memory isn't going to sell them on it...
Telling them they can do their work faster, easier and with better quality will.
"Let's face it, almost no one buys a computer system solely for the pleasure they get from using the Mac OS interface, or for the theoretical power they could get from a Linux installation. Where once choice was as simple as "I want an Atari" or "I want an IBM," today's consumers buy computers to read email, surf the Web, compose memos in a word processor, create graphics, or crunch spreadsheets. However well made a toolbox you buy, what really matters are the tools you fill it with. "
I believe this writer makes a great point - Linux may be a better system technically but people will put up with having to reboot a few times a week (or when the system crashes) because all the tools the need(or want) and more is available to them on Windows. So long as Linux has very few applications to draw most ordinary people to using it (apart from it being more difficult to install etc). We should also be concentrating on making open source apps for everyone to use (hell even make OSS versions of commercial software). Make them cheaper and better than the commercial versions and bingo - the whole world will want Linux on their dedsktops or servers.
And before I get flamed, I know about GIMP and StarOffice (I wonder how many people outside \. do?). We need more application of this or better quality.
47 years?
...
PS Pretty gutsy talk for someone who won't sign
47 years?
I have no problem with malloc() and free(), that's not what I was getting at. I'm talking about a coding "style" in which new and delete (or malloc()or free()) are wrapped in a class (or struct I suppose) where the allocation is done automatically by the constructor and deallocation is done by an object's destructor. You can then treat objects requiring dynamic allocation as local objects whose memory is automatically returned to the heap when they go out of scope.
I actually agree with you that bad programmers cause memory leaks, mostly because the "forget" to delete a pointer (that was my point). This is just one of many TECHNIQUES that can be employed by programmers to make it easier to eliminate memory leaks. It has nothing to do with how malloc() and free() are implimented, only how they are used by the programmer. Couple some of these techniques with some good exception handling (to catch and deal with those "bad_alloc" errors) and you can write some pretty lean and efficient code.
Hell, I can write good code using this style (and the the good old Model-View-Controler pattern) for MS Windows (that's how I earn money to feed my kid). Imagine what it can do on a really good platform....
I was simply pointing out that most of AC's "facts" were not that at all. This is not a "C++ is better than C" post, I use them both (I do like C++ better, admittedly). I simply like people who spout off to atleast know what they are talking about (C is an OO language indeed!!)
So:
(1) yes I am using Windows at the moment (at work) but that really doesn't mean anything in THIS particular argument
(2)I do know how to use them, thank you very much (and I've been doing it for a few years now)
(3)I've never had a problem with my compiler
Well aren't YOU cool. Wasn't open source created so that things couldn't be kept proprietory and secret? Sound like you'd be quite happy to keep Linux out of the hands of anyone who isn't an engineer or geek. Try reading the GPL again.
I suppose anyone who can't speak English is also a -excuse me- "Retard"? (after all they must be damn near neanderthal if they can't under stand a "simple" OS like UNIX or Linux!).
Guess what? A lot more people than geeks like you use computers and alot of them like to "point and drool" as you so elegantly put it. Isn't OSS about having a CHOICE? Don't you rant on here so we (that is all humans, not just the ones with pocket protectors) can have a CHOICE other than MS? If you keep Linux as your little secret, hard to understand and install system that only you know how to use, isn't that just going to keep MS on top of the heap? If you want to beat MS, then Linux must be for everyone, including kids, clerks, offices workers, parapaligics, blacks, hispanics, women and,yes, even people who are mentally challenged (like Downs Syndrome, Autism etc)? Don't they deserve tho have a CHOICE in the type of OS and software they use, aquire or (gulp) buy? Or is that privelige reserved for Techno-Snobs like you?
Maybe if you made a system that had BOTH a GUI and command line interface so you could CHOOSE which one you wanted to use, and it was stable (as we know Linux is) and easy to use, you might not get those "Morons" calling you at the help desk...no one would have to call you!
But I guess then you would have no one to belittle in order to make you feel big and important and powerful. You were picked on quite a bit in high school, weren't you?
As I am NOT an American (and actually quite proud of that fact) I look at tripe like this and just shake my head. Its people with your attitude that keep intelligent people out of the US (if anyone was truly a "liberal" or as we like to say in the Great White (because of the snow and nothing else pin head) North, "left-wing", the LAST place they would go to is America). It's the governemt...Linux is a Communist conspiracy!...
.....
buddy wake up! People like you voted for the NAZI's because they had "good ideas" (they blamed their problems ond sombody else, too).
This discussion is about "hackers" and "suits" (whatever those terms really mean) and how we can all get along and promote Linux/Open Source Software as an alternative kind of market/economy (unrestrained capitalism is just as bad as totalitarian communism), one that's fair to everyone who works in it and make quality products for people to consume (as opposed to MS...). One that's free, but not so "free" that people are exploited or left out(since that's not really freedom, now is it? Wait a minute, where have I heard this idea before? oh yeah! John Locke! Wasn't he a commie?). Welcome the "suits" and business in - but not the same old business with the same old practices - be brave and invent something new.
I'd rather live in country run by "female public servants", pay high taxes but have good roads, free healthcare and safe streets than in ANY country where you could be taken even remotely seriously. (Hey, I already do!)
By the way, I hope you don't have access to diesel fuel, fertilizer and a Ryder truck
Love, a Schlocky Nieghbour to the North
(like you could find it on a map anyway)
Enough bickering...Lets work on this! UI ideas that break out of the "Window" box in more ways than one. If this can make Linux/other OSes easy for the physically challenged to use, then that's all the niche market I need to work on(Sorry Bill, I don't like your Ad!)
Thanks for dropping a little ray of reality in here Nick...do I feel stoopid.
Duh, C++ has been standardized since Novembber of 97 by ANSI. The difference between pre-ANSI C++ and ANSI Standard C++ is night and day. Obviously you haven't tried it for a while if you don't know this, so I'll be nice. As for you OO comments, I won't dignify that with a response...
Okay I will - You're a Moron!
If you program C++ properly, with Smart pointers (see any Design Patterns site or book) and good MVC design, you can have a good quality product with much better memory management (Now don't tell me you NEVER fogotten to free() a malloc()?) and a very small footprint (nothin' like lean mean code!).
Now, what was that you were saying about being a mis-informed idiot?
Hey wasn't Unix invented at AT&T, arguably the biggest bunch of monopolistic "suits" ever (or are you too young to remember what the phone company was like before 1980)? They were even worse than MS today!! ). If you want to keep it hard so no one else can use it, your no better than Uncle Bill keeping it secret so no one can fix/replace it...you're afraid to lose the POWER this "secret" Linux/Unix knowledge gives you over the regular folks out there. Don't they deserve to be freed from the MS yolk? Don't they deserve the benefits of OSS, like you? Apparently your self-imposed "alternative hacker" "cool" lifestyle is more important than REAL FREEDOM for everybody.
The beauty about Linux and Open Source in general is that it can be taken over by anyone - "suits" OR techno-snobs ("I'm-better-than-you-cuz-I-use-the-command-line"
Man I've read a lot of posting from "Amish of the Internet" with the "anything but a GUI/Windows" attitude on this site. If the Linux community is like you geeks (and I know it isn't!) it deserves to die out. I want Linux to be a REAL alternative to MS Windows, to get some REAL competition back into the market, to get some REAL quality stuff made out there. And there are some of us here who are going to do it, with a nice GUI interface, that's easy to install and administer and has lots of FREE (or very affordable) OSS software that runs on it. Yeah, lets make it so everyone can be productive and USE software on Linux(not just "hack" it). A bunch of us here are going to do it and there's not a fucking thing you can do about it (after all it is Open source GNU/GPL!)
We're just inviting you along for the ride....
if you had your way, we'd all still be building computers in our garages instead of buying great hardware at pretty cheap prices (I'm sure your too young to remember the '70's - thanks IBM!!!!(they are the suits that looked into a hobby community and created and industry)).
Grow up. Some of us wear suits cuz we HAVE to, not cuz we WANT to...And I still listen to music cuz I like it, not cuz its "alternative" or "cool" or popular.
Dude.. Apparently 99% of the people who use computers in the real world "point and drool". So I'm guessing all YOU really want is to keep Linux as your own secret club, to keep out kids, grammas and clerks so you can look down your nose at people because they don't know what "chmod" means, or the difference between $ and %. MS Windows may be unstable and crappy but it got popular because its relatively easy to use by most people (including programmers) - and everyone, even you, can use it after a very short time. Linux is much better than Windows and deserves to be used by everybody some day. But until techno snobs like you get over the "I-can-use-a-command-line-I'm-better-than-you" attitude Linux is gonna remain some little backwater OS used by thunder geeks late into the night while Uncle Bill makes another $1 Billion because everyone will buy Win2000 (Win 95 takes 20 minutes to install and I can watch TV and drink a coffee while its doing it, and I can be surfing the net(or playing Quake) 10 minutes after that...How long does Linux currently take? How long will it take if my sister the hairdresser tries to do it?)
Do you smell an Amiga OS? Must be my imagination...
Maybe Linux won't be "cool" if everyone can use it.
Grow Up.
I agree and I've stated it before...
Why do some people here belive Linux is only for the initiated few?
Keep up the good work Mathew.
As a matter of fact I am a developer...only I develop for the PUBLIC, you know, those millions of people out there beyond the walls of your university lab who use computers for other things besides hacking into \passwd files. I working on a pretty intense Oracle project right now for a government ministry. Perhaps you can get you nose out of the man pages long enough to enlighten me on how I can get a 50 year-old civil servant with a grade 12 education to use the oh-so popular command line to view 12000 meat inspection licences with ease? How about a cashier or hairdresser? A mother at home doing her taxes or reading e-mail? But I guess if none of them can understand "chmod -f" then they can't join your secret club (which appears to be what you really want).
And yes I do develop for Windows...not because I LIKE Windows, but because its really the Only game in town (Apple/Mac is a hermit living in the woods nearby). I would much rather use my talents developing for a better, GUI based platform (GNOME or KDE etc on Linux) so that EVERYONE,yes EVERYONE, can benefit form FSF and Open Source, not just command-line commandos who don't seem to like regular people.
Frankly, if you want to be the "Amish of the Internet" go ahead, that's your choice. What I'm saying is that for the rest of the world, the command line is dead (it died in 1987, didn't you get the memo?) and if it isn't dead, it needs to be killed quickly before it breeds again. Otherwise Linux will never be use by more people than those that frequent this site. You do want everyone to use Linux, don't you?
Then DIE, COMMAND LINE DIE!!!!
Check out my post below....
P.S. a 12 Gig hard drive goes for $300 (Canadian!). So unless I intend to run Opera on a Palm Pilot, who cares about footprint? (And before you blow a gasket RAM is even cheaper).
If I didn't read a lot I wouldn't be writing here..
When It come's down to it compliance and speed of page loading etc don't mean dick if the product is not easy to install and use for most people..unless of course you only want it to be used by Linux/Unix hackers. If thats the case, Never Mind.
Here Here!!
What is a browser used for? Browsing! Who cares if its HTML compliant (which it apparently isn't) if the MDI makes cluttered and hard for the average user to use (an like it or not THAT'S who we are designing for - not nerds like us who hang out in \.). That's all a "Browser War" (remember those?) should really be about.
AC #1 above, you remeid me of a guy I knew in University...he loved this alternative band until they got a hit then into the trash they went. I suspect there are people out their who tout Opera not because they think its a real good (quality that is) alternative to other browsers, but because it's NOT one of the other browsers. How many of these same people will be around when Opera is as big as NS or IE? None of them.
If you really use Opera because you beleive its a better product, great keep doing it. Otherwise...
Hey, wake up buddy...like it or not, GUIs are the future of Linux. Maybe not for developers who spend dark hours loving the $ prompt, but for the vast majority of people out there. I'm developing an application under Windoze now and some of our users have problems with the basics of that during UAT...I can't imaging making them try to do some of this database-centred stuff at the command line! This Corel thing is great news if it means more people use the Linux OS and can finally use a desktop GUI which they can configure to match their personality and/or the reason they are using it. My sister the hairdreser wants a good, stable easy to set up and use computer with good software to run her business with. She's not a programmer nor is she very technical. At the moment she has to suffer through the trials an tribualtions of using a Windoze OS since that has a relatively simple GUI with a lot of software she can use (even if she has to reboot every day!).
Here's a wacky idea - don't make a Linux desktop that LOOKS and ACTS like Windoze ( ei don't port Win32 to Linux) - make a desktop that is BETTER (looking at any rate)than Windoze and even easier to use (Notice Mac heads I said better looking...even if it is superior and easier to use, the Mac UI is UGLY! in my opinion. Thats whay poeple don't flock to it now in these anti-MS days we are in and why they are flocking to LINUX) Check out The screen shot at Enlightenment Software for an example of what could be done with a good X desktop environment.
If your not creating Linux for Everyone to use and be free from the MS OS strangle-hold, just who are your developing it for?
So, another bunch of whinners doing a diatribe about the evils of people making money. As if Microsoft isn't bad enough with their virtual monopoly on current PC OSes, some lamers in \. decide to take that anger and vent it against a company who is trying to make money with a good product.
Lets face it, MS only has the monopoly because it keeps its source code secret..Red Hat, Caldera, SuSE etc do not. If you don't like their way of doing a disto, take the code and make your own. If you think rpm sucks, take the code and write a better version. Then, let the users decide. All I've heard and read in this place is people saying how one disto sucks so they moved to another blah blah blah. This is the best part of Linux.. I hate my Win 95 but what can I change to whenever a new feature or improvment comes out - Nothing?!?
So, Red Hat is evil because they chose a creative way to make money from a free OS. I suppose all the developers that are actually EMPLOYEED by RH should live in a box and eat garbage simply because some of you don't think anyone should make money from Linux development (although you'd like everyone to use it).
If the OS is free, people should be allowed to make money from selling applications (open source of course), or tech support services. If you want to make "improvments" you can choose to do so because hey, its nice to be able to brag that "I worked on the package to support xxxx" - heck it might even look good on a resume and get you a good job. If you don't want to buy software, don't. Use the freeware...but don't slag others for wanting to get paid to do what they love.
Has it occured to anyone that if this kind of in fighting may be just what MS wants? The old divide and conquer?
Most people want quality software that's easy to maintain and easy to use (that means GUI!) and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. They also want some choice in this, whether the software is an OS or a Word Processor. The people who make this software would like to be able to feed their kids while they are at it. Linux is a great opportunity to change the way the software business operates so that programmers and users both win. That's why people ought to be using and programming for Linux - so it takes over an defeats MS.
If you are using Linux so that you can be "Cool", "rad" or "anti-establishment", so you can belong to some snobby club with a secret handshake that makes you feel superior to Windows users or programmers, may I suggest you look up the definition of Open Source again (or GNU or GPL).
Nothing wrong with making money as long as your fair about it.
Yeah Lynx is great!!!
..I wish it had everything the OTHER GUYS have had for years!
Grow up the command line is dead!
Opera lasted the sum total of 10 minutes on my machine...It didn't work well but it sure was ugly!
When are you people gonna realize that a nice GUI and Quality software are NOT mutually exclusive?
If noone is gonna use it, why do you mak it?