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Opera for Linux
Migrant Programmer writes "Opera Software has finally announced a prototype of Opera for Linux. It will be shown at the Expo this week.. a speedy, efficient browser for a speedy, efficient operating system. Check their news page and the Project Magic page for more information. "
I'll believe the Opera/Linux browser when I see it available for purchase. This thing been "in development" for over a year now.
I see two distinct Linux distribution models:
One, Gnome/GTK-based, that comes with Mozilla.
Two, KDE/QT-based, that comes with Opera (and requires payment for the browser.)
Since this is QT-based, I think it can only segregate the user base more than it already is... Let the flamewars commence!
... Solaris and all other relevant UNIX derivatives.
Good, good. But when will it be ready?
Mozilla is available in full open-source form. These Opera guys are the same ones who dissed the Linux community a while back. They whined and whined about how "the great Linux community" didn't show enough appreciation and enthusiasm for their obviously superior product, and as such, they have no choice but to develop for the MacOS and Windows instead.
Screw them.
'nuff said.
Isn't that the software that's been underdevelopment for 12 months with NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT.
I've rtfm'd til my eyes fell out and dl'd multiple versions. All I ever get is a bunch of libraries with no executable. I just don't get it.
Nope. It doesn't crash on me. Since version 3.0.
Much more stable and much faster than Netscape or IE.
These news are great - I can now get rid of Netscape on Linux as well. Netscape is by far the biggest memory hog on my Linux system.
Mozilla is going to be great, but I think every one is sick of hearing that. I think everyone expects Mozilla to release something good and usable. NOW. It's not that I dislike Netscape, but Netscape uses Motif. Which makes all that whining about QT look really dumb. REALLY REALLY dumb. Don't give me any crap about lesstif or anything, because that produces a very buggy netscape.
If Mozilla/Netscape wants to argue from the moral high ground, they need to do the following:
1. Dump Motif from their primary releases.
2. Pick up GTK
3. Dump AOL, the world's largest user of IE.
When Netscape/Mozilla (They are NOT two seperate things, the entire license is still (c) Netscape Communications Corp) gets that done, then I'll believe people who say that they're not a monopoly. Until that date, I think we deserve a GOOD, USABLE, VIABLE alternative.
J
I used Opera a while back and remember hating some of the things about it, like the fact that it was using multiple document interface (of course, that's just a nitpick) and it had some problems saving files. Well, other than that it's the best damn browser you can fit on a floppy disk as far as I'm concerned. And, like someone said before, Netscape on Linux is getting old. Go Opera! Besides, I hate Netscape just as much as MSIE. Just because.
Mozilla and GTK
Very nice. GPL'd and all. Very nice.
But still, in the end, still owned by AOL. Not so nice, is it? The world's largest user of IE owns Netscape.
Sad. And you people are duped into believing it's all for real. And.. oh, if you don't believe that Netscape/Mozilla are basically the same thing, read the MPL. Most of the mozilla code is copyright.. Netscape Corp. Whoops. That company is owned by. AOL. Whoops.
So, what is to be said about that? Most mozilla copyrighted code under the license is owned by AOL.
Shove that up the GPL. It's time for a NON OWNED alternative.
J
...and then what? How do you run a library?
Netscape 5.0 (or Mozilla -- whatever you want to call it) is a major rewrite. They ARE basing it on GTK and Motif is out the door. I think it will be worth the wait :)
;)
Just a side note: I've used the 16-bit Opera with WINE before, and it worked acceptably. It kindof defeats the purpose of a small, fast browser though
- Speed
I assume you're referring to Netscape? Because on my system, a Celeron 300a w/128M, Netscape 4.5 benchmarks at least 30% faster than dirt.
Of course, my dirt is a beta version, but I don't see how they're going to make up that deficit with minor tweaking.
Yep, have run "apprunner". Looks for a bunch of libraries.
Lynx is by far the better browser. THe only problem I see with Lynx is the lack of frames support. I wonder if you could accomplish frames with curses...
Are you THAT lazy? Sheesh.
Why do you have a problem with the fact that Troll-Tech made it?
I'm happy with frames support in lynx (you're using 2.7 or better, right?). I just wish tables worked better... Other than that, it's definitely the best browser in existence.
'Cos some lameasses would have wanted it to be gtk-crap?
New toolkits (both Gtk and Qt) intentionally
avoid using X resources.
X resources are full of wildcards. They can be
loaded from strange places, including non-network
filesystems on other machines.
This makes it impossible to implement a modern
configurable GUI. Modern software lets the user
save preferences. (no config file hacking needed)
You can't do this with X defaults.
Well, I just downloaded it for NT, and as a test I loaded the periodic table over at Lucent. It's an ugly site, to say the least. Another interesting tidbit is that Opera reports itself to the server as Netscape Navigator 3.0.
People who are interested in a speedy web browser would care (not to say that mozilla or lynx are slow). There is nothing wrong with a commercial product. If everybody felt that way, we probably wouldn't have Quake or other commercial games on Linux.
Isn't it an oxymoron "hackers using windows"? Hacker's browser indeed.
The MDI is hideous. I hate it. Yuck yuck yuck.
I know from /. that it is a scientific fact that no commercial product can compete with OS! DIE BILL!
Finally there's gonna be a good browser for Linux. Netscape is a pig. I've ran the pre-release of Mizilla though, and it looked really nice. Any idea *when* it's gonna be released???
woof woof woof
Given I go to school someplace where, due to massive paranoia on the part of the sysadmins, they change the proxy configuration every day or so, I know I'd miss it.
So what your saying is that because Opera will be released for Linux, we (the Linux community) will suffer? I personally find this hard to believe.
I'm not going to try and guess whether or not Opera is worth paying for, as I haven't seen the Linux version. However whether or not I use it, I seriously doubt it's existance is going to lower my standard of living.
The k file managers web browsing part (kfm) has been greatly improved for KDE 1.1. It is already a tough competition for Netscape in every-day use.
KDE NG will come with the KOM/OpenParts component architecture, where Konqueror (i.e. kfm III) will be a central component.
Furthermore there will also be a Mozilla component.
In fact, KDE will compete with TrollTech in this area!!
If LessTif (replacing Motif) in Mozilla produces bugs, how about doing everybody a favor a FIX LESSTIF! Instead of wasting time ripping out the Motif code from Mozilla.
Geez, there are zillions of Unix apps out there built on Motif. Think how much easier it'd be to make those available for Linux with a drop-in Motif replacement. (Hell, if you don't like the look, at least keep the API).
Personally, I've found LessTif to do a pretty good job - indeed a hell of a lot less buggy than some commercial Motif implementations I've had to use (Motif 1.0 for the Pyramid comes to mind...)
The day Netscape 5.0 (NGLayout/Gecko/Mozilla/Whatever) is released is the day the first opinion can be rendered about it. I have downloaded nightly binary builds for the past two months and have watched it turn from a tech demo into a superbly crafted browser. It has gobs of debug code in it and has at LEAST three months of heavy work to go, but the architecture seems solid, the standards support is unprecedented (>Opera), and i use the testing app (viewer.exe) as an auxillary browser when IE5b3 tanks my machine...
Go to mozilla.org, download a nightly binary, download the source, download the developer's preview, see the screenshots, test it out, debug it, add to the codebase, add your expertise, read the status updates, but for GOD'S SAKE stop bitching about Netscape, AOL, or Mozilla.
Mozilla is NOT AOL.
Mozilla is NOT Netscape, per se.
It is as open source as a project of it's size and nature is going to get and it is GOING to produce a complete, extensible, efficient, flexible browser in under 3 megs in under 6 months.
It is being ported to OS/2, WIN32, *nix, Linux, and Mac, and is YOURS to improve.
Come on folks... Netscape is forking over salaries for 100 programmers, compared to only 30-odd developers who are actively volunteering, AFAIK...
Either you're helping out Mozilla, forking over cash for Opera, helping out with Lynx, using Be, dual booting, or coping with your current browsers. Bitching about Netscape 4.0/4.5 or PRE-ALPHA Mozilla code is not a valid option except for whiny juvenile techno-religious shits, who are the major problem with Linux.
It took you long enough Rob... They announced this at the show like Monday or something.
If you can't code around that, then you can't code your way out of a paper bag. Lots of Motif apps let you save preferences. The cool thing about X defaults is that it lets you set your own preferences for things that the app programmer may not even have thought of. If the app programmer has a reason for denying or limiting that choice, it can be done.
I was doing "configurable GUIs" in Motif a half-dozen years ago.
KDE offers KFM (the web browser part is also called KONQUEROR), and this is under heavy development.
With KDE 1.1, KFM can handle nearly anything I need on the web, so Opera would have a hard time replacing KFM. Theres also talk about a KDE port of Mozilla, so this area will get even more crowded.
Moreover, Opera will likely not use the KDE libraries, but just plain Qt.
they're keys for things most browsers don't let you do with the keyboard.
Ctrl-x,c,v for cut, copy, paste are not broken.
Alt-leftarrow is still 'Back'
Alt-rightarrow is still 'Next'
They just added a few more (very useful) things
Lynx?
Slashdot is annoying under lynx
Does anybody know where at Linux World they are doing this demo?
I'm sure that's news to everyone who has ever written open source based on what they liked in a closed source product.
If you can't learn from code, learn from user interface and new features. And that's why having more and better software for Linux, no matter what its nature, is good.
GPL isn't about the ownership if code - its about the freedom to express and convey ideas in ways that only code can.
Well, perhaps not. But if that's true, then Mozilla is NOT UNDER GPL. Because the code that is Netscape's is still netscape's. So then, MOZILLA IS NOT GPL'D. IT IS MPL'd. And the MPL still makes it so Netscape keeps a good leash on you.
How about A REALLY FREE browser, since all you zealots are being real hypocritical?
QT IS AS FREE AS MOZILLA IS.
If you don't believe that, read up on it. You can't do everything you want with mozilla code. Some parts of it are still owned by Netscape/AOL.
So, don't think that by slapping GTK on as the widget set that you've suddenly got a certified FSF FREE browser. All you've got is a browser that has a FREE widgetset on it.
Mozilla isn't free. It's OpenSource, but it's not free. It probably doesn't even fall completely under DFSG.
So.. Mozilla's costs are hidden. NSCP owns it. (Do a whois on mozilla.org and one on netscape.com to prove that). Opera's costs are that it is not open source and that it is payware.
J
You "If it ain't GPL'ed it's crap!" people need to chill out. This attitude that open source software is *alwyas* the best is pretty ridiculous when you think about it. There are lots of proprietary softs that are much better than their open source counterparts. There are also lots of open source softs that kick much ass. Whatever happened to the attitude that the best code is the best code, regardless of where it came from? Whether it's open source or proprietary, I'll use what works best for me. If I need to pay a little bit of money for it, well that's life in a (mostly) capitalist society.
Shiat...look at linux...barf
Opera is very anti-Linux. They charge and don't give away the source. They think free software is bad (freedom & free of charge) because they are greedy fools who want to make $$$. Opera is VERY ugly and VERY unstable and VERY slow. The worst thing about it is the MDI. It looks TERRIBLE on small monitors. DIE OPERA DIE!!!!
There, just said it. I probably will end up using Mozilla anyway, but it is good that people finally can have a choice.
I never said that Opera was the end all.
I only said that Mozilla isn't Free.
Free as in Freedom, not free beer
And while it may be open source, and it may be a step closer to free.. it's not. It never will be Free.
So let's do something that WILL BE FREE.
Long live Mnemonic, whenever it is born.
JH
Too MUCH caffiene TODAY???
Geez louise -- give it a rest with all the "if-it-aint-free-then-it-is-crap" mentality. Like any other software in the world, give it a chance and don't use/buy it if you don't like it.
Is there such a thing as software bigotry? If so, then you are "Figure 1."
Out.
http://www.operasoftware.com/graphics/be-opera-2.g if
1 sm.gif
http://www.operasoftware.com/graphics/be-opera-
...just click on the button at the right end of the field where you enter the URL.
Opera is the best webbrowser I ever used, it's very stable on my system but SUN's java plugin doesn't feel very stable...
yecch! don't feed the troll
It's really annoying to post something and when you come back to see the responses, the whole thread is gone? Who's nuking stuff? I certainly didn't post anything offensive, and it was on-topic.
Whatever.
I tried it a month or two ago, and it seemed to only crash on /., and even then only when I read comments... I think maybe it was something funky w/the add banners...
It crashes on Slashdot? not for me... guess which browser I'm using now? :)
Which drugs are you using?
So, yes, they charge and don't give away the source. But does that mean that they think free software is bad? Can't free and non-free software co-exist?
And the part about "very unstable and very slow" shows that you didn't even try Opera - you are just "preaching" against it because it isn't free.
Are you so afraid of something that you have to lie? Anyone who's used Opera knows that it's dozens of times faster, smaller and more stable than ANY current or past version of NS or IE.
Motif may be *your* standard, but Netscape is the only Motif-based software I own.
/usr/lib/bloat.
... it's a wheel that's been attached to Unix's axles for a while now.
I have 100+ executables linked with GTK, 1 linked with QT (licq: because I'm loathe to try to move my existing database into gtkicq), and one big-ass bloated staticly linked browser.
Now, what exactly was Motif for again? Oh, that's right. Making enormous resource-hogging static executables.
The moment I can ditch Netscape/Motif, I will. I'll go in there and rm the damned thing 100 times out of vengance. Motif is ugly, it doesn't obey systemwide configuration parameters (like GTK themes -- yes, most of them are crap, but some, like the BeOS theme, are quite clean), and there's almost no software other than Netscape that uses it. At least, no software I need.
The people have chosen GTK as their toolkit. All the other toolkits can go away now, lest they contribute to
Funny, Netscape seems to be the only commonly-used Motif app I'm aware of. But maybe I'm just lucky to have been able to ignore other Motif apps.
Last I looked, the wheel that's attached to X is Xaw. And if there's anything uglier than Xaw, Motif is probably it.
Netscape 4.5 (libc5) crashes very rarely for me (with the exception of clicking on mailto links with the first button). It was a noticable improvement over the 4.0x browser.
If they make a browser that you don't like, don't use it. It's that simple, so what if you have to pay for it? Get over it. Everything in life isn't free.
I am so sick of irrelevant postings!!!
HTML compliant? It's the only major browser that has yet to recognize 's. The MDI is what everyone hates about it, I don't see how anyone can consider that a good feature. It's not the only browser to scale pages as they're being viewed.
Ever since I have installed KDE 1.1, I have hardly bothered to fire up Nestcape. It is just too slow and clunky on Linux. kfm is sweet and fast and has darn good HTML rendering (even though it fails sometimes - rendering HTML is about as tough a UI task as you can get with all the random input you get).
Now that kfm supports cookies, I can use it for everything. I was thinking, though, maybe they could integrate Gecko as the standard HTML widget for KDE. Then kfm and all other apps could use it internally when they display HTML.
Thoughts?
bob petersen
well, that's nice that you have an opinion,
but it seems that it's qt-based because some of
the troll tech guys rewrote the existing win32 code to call the qt lib. seems that the gtk people could have done the same but didnt...?
Compile it yourself. I have had zero success with the binaries they put up. Always segfaulting. I suspect they are still using some punk-ass version of gtk+ (be it CVS or 1.1.x). I have had success with the 23-02 build with gtk+ 1.1.16. The snapshot of yesterday fails for anything but the initial window. Their making progress though!!!
Come back when you evolve into a sentient being...
Umm..
The GPL doesn't ALLOW for multi licenses in this case. It doesn't apply. In fact, the whole thing CANNOT BE GPLD. Only parts of it can. Read the GPL, then you'll understand the obvious fact.
Mozilla is lying to you. They can't put it under GPL.
J
Well, the GTK people DIDN'T Fricking do the job, did they? They left it. Whoops. Way to go GTK people.
Anyway, I wish you people would stop acting so high and mighty regarding QT. Don't you get it? The Mozilla Public License is about as Free as the QT license. No commercial uses, etc. Except guess what? With QT , at least you can BUY commercial rights. With MPL, you retain your code, but if it's EVER used in Netscape (which it can be) , you don't own the code anymore.
*SIGH* It's so funny to watch you guys. You're afraid of a little company called Troll Tech.. and you're not afraid of a big company called AOL/Netscape/Mozilla.
*snicker* Take a look, folks. You're being played.
J
Plug-ins and other nice Opera stuff can be found here:
http://www.operasoftware.com/tools.html
is anyone porting Gecko to run in KGI?
I already PAID for Opera on Win32...
:-)
;-)
...and I can't wait for the chance to PAY
for Opera again on X11, assuming that the
Linux emulation in FreeBSD is good enough
to run Qt and Opera
(if it isn't, I'll kill my Windoze partition
and put one of the many Linux distro's on it.
Red Hat 5.0 is pretty secure, isn't it?
As for being "anti-GPL", would you ever get
a grip?
Since when does the GPL say "Thou shalt not use
hoarded software on any of your computers"?
(did your VCR come with open-source firmware?)
Hidden away in Opera's cache preferences,
since about 3.50, is a pair of "netscape
compatibility" checkboxes, labelled
"Always check redirect".
From the help file:
> What does that mean? Whenever you click a link
> that redirects to another address Opera will not
> check the cache, but load the link again. This is
> to be Netscape- compatible. By unchecking these
> boxes you will save time and load pages that are
> in the cache faster. A lot of pages have images
> that redirect. This is why we have differentiated.
> Quite often these links go to ads.
Nice and subtle.
In practice, you can surf an ad-ridden site,
and only see the first banner, not an endless
variety of more and more annoying animated
"CLICK ME!" banners.
And if the animation gets to you, you can disable that aswell.
The MDI is the primary reason I use Opera. When you are doing searches across multiple engines, nothing is more irritating than having 20 million instances of Netscape/IE floating around. Opera does a good job of containing them and at the same time permits quick switching using the KB. So the GUI's not as pretty as the Beasts, but its faster and in general quicker than the competition. At least that's true in my experience.
I'll certainly give it a try, but I probably won't fork out money unless it's demonstrably better than Netscape 4.5 and Mozilla.
Does it have SSL?
Hello! No matter WHAT toolkit they use we'd have to pay for Opera! It's not a free browser. I'm GLAD they're using Qt. End users don't have to pay for software written in Qt unless the developer WANTS us to pay.
You should also say "Death to Opera" if you say "Death to Qt", because Opera is just as "anti GNU" as Qt is (and that is perfectly fine to me).
Maybe you don't want it, but I sure do. I would love to have a browser that isn't gtk based, and now I will have even more options. If you want to use Mozilla/gtk, that's fine; not all of us do.
It may not be the best UI out there, but it certainly beats Netscape's UI. At least in Opera I can quickly toggle between images/no_images with a button, rather than having to go through multiple menus to do so. Same with turning on/off user-defined fonts, font sizes, and colors (vs. the page's defined fonts, font sizes and colors).
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
KDE may not run but Opera definitely will... it kicks ass on a 486... even in Win95.
:)
That's the dman truth, we had Opera running on a 486/25 w/ 8mb RAM under 95, and manipulating the OS was slower than actually operating the browser.... But... heh, that's not much of a surprise.
-Erik-
thought those times were long behind.
not that ive given much heed to the commercial
software world anway...
I'd rather use Communicators STANDARD keys - you know, CTRL-C, CTRL-V, arrow keys, etc.
can it also disable blinking & animation? I wouldn't mind the ads so much if they'd just sit still . . .
I'm still using netscape 3 over having load images in the menu rather than buried in configuration, and for the alt-num sequence to go back several pages at once.
The Galactic Civilizations III port for Linux was using QT. However, that project has apparently fade quitely into oblivion (perhaps accelerated by the Civ3 announcement).
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Opera Software itself doesn't do the porting generally. They had tried to contract it out to several other people, but no one would finish the work.
Things look much better now that someone at least stepped up to the plate with something. I'd call this the first real announcement.
--
Ben Kosse
Remember Ed Curry!
What's the problem with a commercial app using QT? That's what QT was designed for...
No problem at all. In fact, I was wondering if we'd ever see a real commercial app using Qt! I'll willingly pay for an Opera/Linux license. I've already paid for an Opera/Win32 license.
- What's the problem with a commercial app using QT? That's what QT was designed for...
No problem at all. In fact, I was wondering if we'd ever see a real commercial app using Qt! I'll willingly pay for an Opera/Linux license. I've already paid for an Opera/Win32 license.Hopefully, this will be configurable. If so, I know I'll try it both ways.
Sorry. You'll have to take your chance. (I'm happy to pay for an alternate platform, but I recognize not everyone will be.)
Qt is anti GNU. Death to Qt!
Some people just don't get it. Who cares if AOL
'owns' Mozilla? The SOURCE is available for our
prying eyes to see and digest - we can continue to
implement thing with Mozilla, or take the IDEAS
clearly portrayed in the Mozilla code and re-implement them if AOL goes stupid.
GPL isn't about the ownership if code - its about the freedom to express and convey ideas in ways that only code can.
Linux is not simply about 'making things work better'. Its about making US work better. Without the source, WE cannot learn and improve. WE become victims to some 3rd party developer. We've all already been down that road (MS), lets not keep repeating the past.
Hmm. It'll be interesting to compare Mozilla/GNOME to Opera/KDE in terms of resource usage. Somehow I doubt either of them's going to run on my 486/33 8Mb laptop, more's the pity. Perhaps I'll buy a Thinkpad (once IBM come up with a Windows-not-included package).
--
W.A.S.T.E.
W.A.S.T.E.
Go to the binaries area of mozilla.org and download a build. Look for apprunner, like the FAQ/README/whatever it's called, says. Run it. Presto, Mozilla. Well, sort of, anyway. If you still have trouble, try asking someone for an exact file to download, and exact commands to run.
Oh yeah, another thing, it might be a good idea to make a special Mozilla user: that way your existing Netscrape bookmarks, etc. can't get screwed up.
--
W.A.S.T.E.
W.A.S.T.E.
Motif is the standard. There's no getting away from it. Does GTK support X resources properly? Check out Netscape.ad some time to see how & why that sort of thing is useful. I'm not saying GTK isn't good, mind you, but there's a pre-existing wheel, and it's a wheel that's been attached to Unix's axles for a while now. Personally I don't really care: I primarily want Mozilla because there's no decent browser on Linux/Alpha yet.
--
W.A.S.T.E.
W.A.S.T.E.
Been trying that for a while. It segfaults.
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
I've tried segfaults. It doesn't even bring up a window. I think the program is:
:-) Seriously, it sounds like it'll be cool when it finally works.
int main(int argc,char argv[])
{
char *test=0;
printf(test);
}
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
Just so long as you are not trying to correct a mistake in your Address.
-- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"'
Yay, another commercial product to go along with KDE... oh wait, KDE is "open source" sort of... I will stick with GTK/Mozilla and the GPL thanks. I can theme Mozilla with GTK themes, and integrate it with GNOME, so who cares about this thing?
Mozilla is GTK already, and who cares about the AOL thing? I know I don't as long as we get a good browser in the end. And they don't have "nothing" to show for it. I download builds every once and a while. NGLayout is *VERY* fast, and puts Opera to shame, the only things really lacking are the UI construction. A lot of the skeletal work is done, or approaching that stage.
Haha. And that "non owned alternative" is essentially a commercial product with NO SOURCE CODE? Yeah, good argument.
The fact that Netscape/AOL still retains ownership of much of the Mozilla code is irrelevent. Mozilla's licence prevents Netscape/AOL from denying us our rights to the code that has already been released.
----
----Daniel Pearson of the UMBC LUG
Like some others here, I will hold out for Mozilla when it is finally released. I just can't see any compelling advantages to using a proprietary browser instead of a free one.
A free software browser offers much more customizability, feature potential, and long term credibility than a proprietary browser. It's also a lot easier to fix bugs in free software. If other people want to use Opera, that's fine. That's their choice. It's not my choice.
I'm considering a purchase of Opera35 for my win95 box (damn, things about to expire & I haven't needed a full OS install after I removed the compression) but if U purchase the 95 version does this allow U to get the Linux version?
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
and Gecko is going to be free as well. When a stable version comes out I'll use it.
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
though I dont like the fact it store the pages title in the drop down box, should store the URL
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
And you can set Slashdot, Freshmeat, I Cringely, *and* User Friendly as your startup page.
If Opera supported automatic proxy configuration, I'd use it.
--
As long as each individual is facing the TV tube alone, formal freedom poses no threat to privilege.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
am I the only one who thinks Opera's UI is clunky?
| Personally I don't really care: I primarily
| want Mozilla because there's no decent
| browser on Linux/Alpha yet.
Now there's an idea for the Opera folks. Put out an Alpha Linux version. The old (100898) release of Mozilla is usable on Alpha/Linux systems - I mean, that's what I'm writing this message on, but it's certainly not stable and light on system resources.
I've tried compiling Mozilla with GTK on my Alpha and unfortunately all I get is a segfaulting apprunner.
-- Rick
How does shuffling your proxy around help security?
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
I've tried a couple of those on linux, but never got them to run. I tried one Windows build, and that ran great. (Hey, perhaps I could just run that one in Wine)
Anyway, what kind of experience have others had with the nightly builds for linux. Is it the builds that are fucked up, or my system?
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
Imagine how many sites we could bring the slashdot
effect to with one of these...:)
"We want to take over the world, but we don't want to do it tomorrow, it's OK if it's next week"-- Linus Torvalds
Is that a problem because it's part of the Yet Another X Toolkit Syndrome? YAXTS has been going around for 15 years now, there's no stopping it. Everyone wants a cooler toolkit. That only means once you buy Opera it'll have a bigger footprint on your disk. (So much for the "Browser on a floppy" claim they love so much.)
What's your point?
Get off my lawn.
Soon they'll be an interview with Troll Tech... "We can't promise we'll never sue Mozilla..."
---------------------
John 3:16 - God's Public License
Title says it all.
* As is generally the case, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
Take a look there for screenshots and some information on Mozilla and its development.
You might be surprised, but they have progressed very far and have quite a lot to show for it. It will really make a splash when it comes out.
You should do
export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/dir/where/mozilla/is
export MOZILLA_HOME=/dir/where/mozilla/is
before you try to run apprunner
I remember when AOL took over Netscape and everyone was itching for another choice such as Opera. Now I guess for some people Opera is worse than AOL because the unfinished mozilla is open source. Enough of this bickering. Opera is good because is means we have more choice and competition.
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You can change the buttons, you can change how links look on the screen, you can zoom in on a website (not just text but graphics as well)...it's the closest thing to a hacker's browser and unlike lynx, you get pictures too.
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I said "close". If it was running on unix then you could really call it a hacker's browser. That's going to happen soon
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Check out:
http://floach.pimpin.net/
http://reveal.unpaved.com/
http://www.customize.org/
http://www.stardock.com/
Reveal and Dimension are only for Windows. Maybe they'll consider porting to linux...
Seeing the Microsoft "E" in windowblinds sends a shiver down my spine...
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Linux is also about users who want an OS that's fast and doesn't crash like Windows.
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The BeOS screenshots I've seen (http://www.operasoftware.com/graphics/be-opera-1s m.gif) don't show any MDI. The linux version may be similar
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maybe they use the browser that invented the tag and a whole score of proprietary non-standard tags.
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.
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Get over this GPL purity. You won't get a GPL browser that comes close to Mozilla (netscape 5 will probably include proprietary crypto code) or Opera.
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If they added a feature to knock off stupid /. posts (KDE is evil because it's not GPL! No gnome sucks because redhat is MS!,etc), the web would be completely irritant free
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Opera is sweet. It's small, it's fast, it rarely crashes, and it's the only browser (other than Lynx) that can really be used without the mouse. For users who prefer not to use the mouse (or find it difficult or painful thanks to RSI), this is a godsend.
It also lets you optimize your real estate by killing the scroll bars and menu bars when you don't need them (keyboard users!), and has one-key or one-click ways to turn on/off colors and backgrounds and images and such, which is a huge win for browsing all those unreadable or ad-intensive sites.
It's the only browser that I've felt was developed for me and not for Joe Random or for major corporate entities who want to control the user's experience. Except for Lynx; and, well, sometimes you need images and decent frame support.
Yes, it's not quite as slick as Netscape in some ways. I DON'T CARE. It's so much better 95% of the time that the occasional awkwardness or Javascript glitch (I usually have javascript turned off anyway) doesn't bother me.
Yes, I'd like it to be free, and I don't like Opera's attitude about free software, but life goes on.
Yes, Mozilla may well be a wonderful browser, and I hope it will be, but it's not there yet; while Opera is a port of a browser which is already wonderful.
Whether with Mozilla or Opera, a future without Netscape 4.* sluggishness and bloat and a bus error every 30 damn minutes of browsing will be an excellent thing. My life will be better.
Clunky?
:) Not to mention that it actually makes efficient use of it's cache...
Try getting rid of all the toolbars and just using keystrokes... tres svelte!
Z= back one page
X= forward one page
Q= back one link
A= forward one link
F2 = type in an address
F5 = reload
etc., etc.
Personally, I find keystrokes much quicker and more convenient than pointy-clicky.... that's why use linux when I can!
And Opera is MUCH quicker rendering pages than those OTHER browsers
.
KDE may not run but Opera definitely will... it kicks ass on a 486... even in Win95.
.
What are smoking? Can I have some?
;)
Personally, I can and will use whatever apps I see fit... I have no need for a DE but even if I did what's to stop me from using a QT-based Opera with Gnome? Or Mozilla with KDE?
What's the problem with a commercial app using QT? That's what QT was designed for...
As long as they don't link it with other people's GPL'ed code and try to distribute the binaries
.
I've been using 3.51 every day for months now.. it's crashed twice... Netscape has crashed three times and I use Opera more... ;)
Unfortunately, Opera adheres to W3C standards and doesn't render bad HTML very well...
.
why? I hate to have to reach for the alt key when I arrow back to the previous page.
Oh... and Ctrl-V / Ctrl-C work like normal.. duh.
BTW, how can you mention Netscape and STANDARD in the same sentence without cracking up? bwahahaha
Used the BLINK tag lately?
Yes. SSL 1 & 2.
It is better in my opinion unless you visit a lot of sites with bad HTML (i.e. ZDNet), in which case it may render them funky.
.
I say woohoo! It's about time Netscape had some worthwhile competition on the Linux platform to pull them out of complacency. The "everything must be free" zealots can continue to use Netscape and the "must have something that doesn't crash and doesn't use 80 meg of swap" folks can go Opera until a suitable free alternative comes along. Provided it doesn't use Motif. Yuck.
It's a Unix system - I know this.
BTW, don't believe everything you hear on newsgroups
--
Donovan Rebbechi
Last time I used it they had a MAJOR problem with buttons that triggered script.
The Pope
Yeah and they looked like hell and required you to use a poorly engineered C interface. Like a round peg in a square hole.
The revolution will be mocked
I've downloaded, used, and erased Opera every six months since 1.3 or whatever. It's always been faster than Netscape or Internet Extorter, but it still crashed constantly--usually a clean crash, unlike IE or Navigator, but still....
Have they cleaned up their act? Are they fast *and* stable now?
> Grow up the command line is dead!
??? What are you talking about ???
Are you a developer ?
- sigs are for wimps.
"The command line is dead?"
This must be Microsoft or Apple minion. You all know that scripting is dead too, right? Bwa ha ha ha!!
And speaking of scripting, lynx makes an awesome http/ftp client for scripting. I have it in a script that automatically downloads all the day's news and reads it to me through my Festival voice synthesizer.
Why are you so rude? He didn't say anything bad about QT or TT.
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
Why am i posting in this old news snip
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
Well, on the one hand, it's nice to see Opera getting released for Linux, just because it seems to be a fairly popular browser (for a non-Big-Two offering), and the more popular software gets ported over to Linux, the better off Linux will be in general. When I used Opera on my old 486 DX2/66 running Win95, it was a good deal peppier than Netscape or IE; there were a few annoying things about it, most notably the 30-day expire time.
OTOH, I've never really liked the Opera peoples' attitude ("Free web browsers are worth exactly what you pay for them; pay for ours and use it, it costs money, therefore it doesn't suck"). I've heard good things about Mozilla's progress, and look forward to trying out a stable version of it when it comes out.
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
Im sorry but I think this is great. I use opera at work, because Im stuck with Winblows. Im tired of netscape in Linux, maybe this will be a great alternative to Netscape. The only thing I have seen faster than opera is Lynx and I love lynx :)
Natas
Natas of
-=Pedophagia=-
http://www.mp3.com/pedophagia
Also Admin of
http://loki.linuxgames.com
Hey, it doesn't sound like you have seen some of
the new GNOME/Enlightenment.
Windows is one damn ugly O/S IMO, linux is one of
best looking OS's there is (IMO also)...
the CLI has colors (in bash at least) and the GUI
can be customized to any way you want it to..
if its ugly, then you made/kept it ugly.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
Hey Pal, smarten up.
This guy can not like Troll-Tech and thats fine
he can say he doesn't like it, and thats fine.
Personally, i would have prefered GTK, honestly.
But chances are i'll still get a copy of Opera,
because QT isnt bad either.
Don't have a fit because he doesn't like QT and
you do. Because thats immature shit.
Next time ditch the 'lameass' shit and replace it with something reasonable.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
Instincivly, I would agree with this.
But in reality, a hacker is a person who edits
source code. Not some 13yr old who thinks hes
cool becuase he can oob win32 boxes on irc.
Ergo, a hacker is less likly to be interesting
in win32 because its not a good coding o/s and
its source is closed. But its not impossible.
(FYI, I use OpenBSD, i'm not a win32 guy)
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
Yeah! I'm using Lynx right now in fact =)
Its fast and stable, not flashy java type shit
just good old text =).
And I totally agree with you, i would sure like
to see tables support with curses, and even
frames. It would be ugly at the lower text resolutions, but a the higher text resos (say, 132x42+) it would be sweet.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
I love Opera, been using it almost exclusively for two years. I lost faith in Netscape after 3.x, and I have erased IE from any system that I have control of.
Opera is basically shareware. I have no problem with that. They bootstrapped a project to hire
programmers and port it to other OSes, now finally Linux will get a shot. I am very pragmatic about this. I didn't mind sending them $35 to get me a browser I can count on, that is fast, that crashes (as they all do) at least with some sensibility, and that is more-standards oriented than the others.
Sure, I would rather have them give it to me for free. But let's get real. Here are two guys operating out of their homes in Norway, offering a not-stupid browser to the world for a fair price.
Eventually I think they may wake up and GPL it, but for the time being give credit where it's due, they provide a reasonable alternative to Netscape and IE. I have hopes for Mozilla but it ain't there yet, not for me anyway.
By the way, because I like Opera a lot, I read through all the comments on this, and it simply reinforced my view that reading AC stuff is not worth the time. Those who have something interesting to say are outblathered by 10:1.
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Bill Gates Is My Evil Twin.
Of course they aren't. I don't like Opera because of its GUI. I like it because it's HTML standard compliant (more so than either of the heavy-hitters), it has an MDI and the ability to scale pages as they're being viewed, and because it has a footprint smaller than a gnat.
Clearly, a bunch of people here will. Read some of the posts. Read Wired's article on Opera. Read anything, for chrissakes.
As an unabashed Opera fan, I'll have to admit that I'm not completely crazy about the UI, but, hell, except that it's kinda hard to configure, I don't have any problem with it. I will give up a little on the point-and-click for the multiple windows and the speed . I also like that fact that you can turn off the formatting, maximize a frame and have cached/no graphics besides. It's the best browser for surfing ad-laden sites like ZD-Net.
I'll buy one, though I'm not really crazy that Troll-Tech made it...
Chris
Chris
So Buddha walks into a pizza parlor and says: "Hey, make me one with everything."
I remember some smart-ass remarks from opera saying the would never support the GNU/Linux
platform. It might have been in a newsgroup or something. I have not used it because of these statements, and I probably never will.
Actually, the kfm in KDE1.1 still won't work correctly with Yahoo's cookies, and there are several other things that it's missing (like javascript) which are required for some sites.
That said, it's a great tool for reading documentation and looking through directories of HTML files since you can have the tree view on the left side showing all of your files.
Now, if it just had the command line at the bottom like Midnight Commander, it would be nearly perfect.
Netscape is a big fat hideous pig, that prevents me from truly insulting those trifling widows users. The sooner this b_tch can be replaced the better. This is the only Linux program that 'crashes' regularly without help - actually it consumes too much resources so I kill it.
Opera is ugly, it may be fast but I refuse to spend hours using the product, and why no tabs. I admire the two pigs in the garage myth but the product is trash. Considering its relative youth the product should have been better - must be taking lessons from M$. I have yet to see why anyone would want to use Opera much less pay for it. For 30 I can get the LinuxMall smorgasborg and have change for a Banks (actuall at 180 to 1 a case of Banks). Give me lynx instead.
Mozilla seems to be the messiah coming to save us, we will soon see if Netscape (and the nice people at http://www.mozilla.org ) can mend their profligate ways and produce a stable browser.
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
I've been really happy with Opera 3.51. It's crashed on me less than a handful of times (maybe 3 or 4) but I could never remotely claim to have been crash free with Netscape. Opera is more configurable and faster.
Nicest of all, Opera lets you disable embedded sounds. It makes the web almost irritant free. I did say _almost_. ;]
You can turn off animation. I would like to be able to go back more than one page at a time; that's probably the feature I miss most. But image loading is supersweet in Opera. You don't have to dig it out of the config to change the option. Just one click (on the camera icon in the document window) or hit the 'g' key to toggle to one of the three image options. On the fly three-way toggling, baby!
As of 3.60 beta, Opera can render the "Mega HTML Periodic Table." Some drastic changes took place in the way Opera renders tables, but their "What's New" page doesn't say anything about it.
How did you get it to go so long? About 5 minutes is what I average. Of course if I use the libc5 version it locks up with unexpected async reply errors before it has a chance to crash, maybe that's the secret?
I would rather have a clunky UI than an engine that fails all the time or is slow as dirt and hogs memory.
I've already bought one for Windows (and is what I use 99% of the time).
I will definitely support the Linux version!
--
- Sean
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
My one and only gripe with Opera is the crash rate. On average, it (3.51) crashes once a week for me.
;)
Unfortunately, Opera adheres to W3C standards and doesn't render bad HTML very well...
That seems to be the problem right there. As soon as you get a page that has more than one <HTML> tag in it (like if someone forgot the / in the </HTML>), it starts screwing up inside. I have found that 3.21 is the most stable. 3.5x's support for CSS is nice, but not worth the drop in stability, IMHO. Luckily, I saved a copy of 3.21, which I still use.
I dunno if you can still get a copy on the official site or not -- just haven't bothered to check.
--
- Sean
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
Sun's Java Plugin???
Where? Gimme!
--
- Sean
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
Hmmm... I've never had any problem with Opera and Slashdot. And I've been using it for about a year.
Using it now, as a matter of fact.
--
- Sean
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
Also Mozilla has been dually licensed under NPL/MPL and GPL.
Mainly so that GPL'd packages can be included in Mozilla. But it means that people can make a fully GPL browser yourself (although the mozilla team would probably be able to make a better one)
Opera lasted the sum total of 10 minutes on my machine...It didn't work well but it sure was ugly!
When are you people gonna realize that a nice GUI and Quality software are NOT mutually exclusive?
If noone is gonna use it, why do you mak it?
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Yeah Lynx is great!!!
..I wish it had everything the OTHER GUYS have had for years!
Grow up the command line is dead!
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Here Here!!
What is a browser used for? Browsing! Who cares if its HTML compliant (which it apparently isn't) if the MDI makes cluttered and hard for the average user to use (an like it or not THAT'S who we are designing for - not nerds like us who hang out in \.). That's all a "Browser War" (remember those?) should really be about.
AC #1 above, you remeid me of a guy I knew in University...he loved this alternative band until they got a hit then into the trash they went. I suspect there are people out their who tout Opera not because they think its a real good (quality that is) alternative to other browsers, but because it's NOT one of the other browsers. How many of these same people will be around when Opera is as big as NS or IE? None of them.
If you really use Opera because you beleive its a better product, great keep doing it. Otherwise...
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Check out my post below....
P.S. a 12 Gig hard drive goes for $300 (Canadian!). So unless I intend to run Opera on a Palm Pilot, who cares about footprint? (And before you blow a gasket RAM is even cheaper).
If I didn't read a lot I wouldn't be writing here..
When It come's down to it compliance and speed of page loading etc don't mean dick if the product is not easy to install and use for most people..unless of course you only want it to be used by Linux/Unix hackers. If thats the case, Never Mind.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
As a matter of fact I am a developer...only I develop for the PUBLIC, you know, those millions of people out there beyond the walls of your university lab who use computers for other things besides hacking into \passwd files. I working on a pretty intense Oracle project right now for a government ministry. Perhaps you can get you nose out of the man pages long enough to enlighten me on how I can get a 50 year-old civil servant with a grade 12 education to use the oh-so popular command line to view 12000 meat inspection licences with ease? How about a cashier or hairdresser? A mother at home doing her taxes or reading e-mail? But I guess if none of them can understand "chmod -f" then they can't join your secret club (which appears to be what you really want).
And yes I do develop for Windows...not because I LIKE Windows, but because its really the Only game in town (Apple/Mac is a hermit living in the woods nearby). I would much rather use my talents developing for a better, GUI based platform (GNOME or KDE etc on Linux) so that EVERYONE,yes EVERYONE, can benefit form FSF and Open Source, not just command-line commandos who don't seem to like regular people.
Frankly, if you want to be the "Amish of the Internet" go ahead, that's your choice. What I'm saying is that for the rest of the world, the command line is dead (it died in 1987, didn't you get the memo?) and if it isn't dead, it needs to be killed quickly before it breeds again. Otherwise Linux will never be use by more people than those that frequent this site. You do want everyone to use Linux, don't you?
Then DIE, COMMAND LINE DIE!!!!
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
I've always reckoned that Backspace was a far more intuitive shortcut for back.
john
I think this says a lot about todays users...