I'm only 24 years old and haven't had the "pleasure" of learning what Computer Science majors know without the use of computers, but many older people than I have ranted (and I've finally acknowledged) that Computer Science in their day could be accomplished without a machine we call a computer.
Universal Turing Machine. Pen and lots of paper.... The person who came up with it didn't have computers at his disposal.
but from what I can recall, computer science in high school has more to do with the history of computing, some introductory programming, basic debugging and problem solving, and some introduction to the flashy cutting edge stuff via presentations from industry
However, none of that is part of computer science...Except problem solving.... If they only did problem solving in high school. As said in other posts, I've been a highschool "computer science" teacher. Problem solving is the A++ grade students stuff. Believe me on that one.
I learnt programming on my own. I thought "computer science" would be easy-peasy. Ha! Dream on! Most of it is pure maths. Not that I didn't manage, and I'm proud of what I achieved.
Europe, Belgium. University of Antwerp. We did all of those things. Not sure about database theory (locking, etc...) I think that was the second year CS.
Yeah, you're right... But alas, there aren't much computer scientist jobs out there.... I'll do my best to be a second rate computer-engineer, okay?
Where I live, you're better of being a business programmer than a computer scientist.... Even though the former will take a bubble sort, and the latter will pull his hair out if he sees him doing it. Explains why I lost so much hair the last ten years.
Because most of them thought they were capable because they can use a computer decently like most people their age.
However, that's just a phenomenon from the last five years or so (when computers started to be cheap and graphical user interfaces were stable). I say five years, because Windows 95 came out in (duh) late 1995 and people needed to grew up with it to think "they could operate a computer". Someone going to college in 1995, having computer experience would know the pre-95 days. I remember a girl (!) in my first year. She had never turned on a computer in her whole life, but was mathematically inclined and interested in computers. She graduated the same year I did (means: without failing) and she did that magna cum laude. That was possible back then. (It's just too bad, I never noticed that she had cast an eye on me...)
Now, I hear adults (+40yo) say their kids "understand computers" and I get batshit mad about that. They don't understand anything, their computers are infested with spyware, they don't understand the difference between RAM and harddisk, they just know how to install World of Warcraft and God help them if someone disabled Autorun. I've been a highschool "computer science" teacher. It's disheartening.
I'm not rude, but I have serious objections with calling "programming" the equivalent of "computer science". I had the sad experience of being a high school teacher and they called "computer science" (or at least the equivalent of that in my language) courses that covered Word, Excel and Access.
Besides, programming is not computer science. Computer science can be learned entirely with pen and paper. Programming is going to be a tad harder to learn without actually trying what you wrote. (1,2,3....Cue in the guy who wrote programs in the fifties when computer time was extremely expensive.)
Exactly! What many people forget is that computer scientists have extreme versatility. One day we code a library, the next we put the foundations of a corporate architecture. It's a stupid example, but I've been doing Java for pretty much the last 10 years. Last month someone needed a C coder (plain C99, not C++) and nobody of the "regular Java programmers" would even dare to take the project. I did.... Two days later, I felt 100% at home with my couple of terms vi, make and valgrind. Coding test-units to be sure my libs are correct. It's just wonderful! (I was truly tired of Java, but is just a small project, I'll have to go back in a few weeks... *sigh*)
Alas, when applying for a job, they only look at your(professional) experience... Anything done at home in your spare time doesn't count. It's sad:-(
Including Big-O notation? Datastructures (linked-lists, hashtables, b-trees, 2-3 trees)? Database design with practical SQL? Turing machines? Church thesis?
That's just the first year computer science.... You highschool offered exactly what of those? If you say VB/Java/C(++)/Pascal, you're not even entering in the realm of computer science.
I started computer science in 1994, when the boom was not yet there. Most people then were passionate about computers, maths and programming. When I graduated, a friend of mine stayed as a PhD candidate. The classes enlistment had then quintupled compared to our class, and one thing was clear: those that were there, were not passionate about the subject. They were there because it promised a golden career. They had also really trouble getting people to actually pass the first year.
So, I hope that computer science graduation is down because those that belong there are attending. Not those that just want to make big bucks because it's an "in profession".
Assuming the grandparent is European as I am: No, we aren't. We have some, ehm, nasty history and all is not rosy either. However, he probably just *imitated* the smugness we had to suffer from Americans from the last ~60 years. Actually, when we talk to foreigners we never boast our freedom, we just talk about cultural differences. Freedom usually never comes up, unless talking with Americans, for some odd reason....
Why in hell would one want to have a laptop that is branded after a car? I don't see the point... I wouldn't want to buy a Porsche, BMW, Mercedes or Audi branded laptop either.
XP however is much more forgiving of hardware failures and does not BSOD (that I've seen) from a bad HD.
I have seen exactly that, numerous times. Usually it ends up in a BSoD at bootup. It only happens when system files are corrupted due to the harddisk. If it's "only" your data that is corrupted, the system will run sweet as ever.
On the other hand, when XP came out all you heard was people bitch about how it barely worked with 64MB and how slow it was with only 128 when that's what most entry level XP systems had. 98 and 2K ran wonderfully in those scenarios.
I grant you Windows 98. However Windows 2000 on a 64MB box? Never. Back when W2k was in SP0 phase, I ran it on a P-III 800MHz that had a whopping 256Meg RAM. It was unbearable.... It was unbearable while 98 ran fine. Only when I upgraded to 256MB, it ran fine. Do also keep in mind that 98 to W2k was an architectural change. W2k to XP was an evolution (and the memory requirements only doubled after XP SP2 came out, before that they were on par with W2k). XP to Vista is also just an evolution, but it put the bar very very high. None of the machines I currently posses (ranging from 10 to 1 year old) are able to run it fully featured. That isn't a good sign.
Some day when Windows 7 comes out we'll talk about how slow it is running with 4GB and how you really need 6 or 8 for it run well. We'll complain that we need to spend an extra $50 to upgrade the shiny new $400 box from 4 to 8 gigs
True, true.... But then I'll be there posting that Vista on a 1GB system was pure horror;-) On a more realistic note, you have to realise that the scenario you describe needs a transition from, 32-bit to 64-bit (just ignore PAE for now, mmkay?) and as far as I can see Vista (the ones sold at best-buy) is still 32-bit (I know there is a 64-bit version, but is Joe User going to buy it? At a a premium?) 8Gig machines on a 32-bit platform? I don't think so....
Just for another reality check: I ran Windows XP Pro on a 600MHz P-III with 512Meg RAM for about two years. That machine was absolutely usable and I could run iTunes, OpenOffice.org 2.0 (at the time), Firefox 1.5.x, Thunderbird 1.5.x, AVG Antivirus, Gnucleus, Truecrypt, GAIM (Pidgin, back then it was called GAIM), and "Media Player Classic" at the same time. Heck, even Eclipse (not know for its frugality on the memory aspect) ran just fine for smaller projects. I only bought a new laptop because it physically started to fall apart!
Anyone saying that 512MB for XP is borderline has simply no clue.... I'd say that 512MB is advisable as a minimum, but it will work great if you have 512MB.
Yes, this was a fully patched XP SP2....
The fun part is that upgrading the harddisk had more impact on the performance than going from 256MB to 512MB. (It was a laptop and the old laptop harddisk was really, really, slow...
My dad uses a P-III 733MHz/512Meg RAM laptop with XP Pro to this day.... Yes, he's a poweruser and does database stuff with his laptop. It's amazing.
Hell, 512MB on a laptop with XP is barely adequate
*blinks* Are you for real? 512MB is quite adequate for XP. That's what my wifes machine had before I upgraded it and that only because the RAM was on sale. I have a good dozen programms running in WinXP Pro and I have... wait for it.... 547MB used... So, yes, it would hit a bit on swap... However, with a good swap out strategy , it would be stuff I rarely use (if Windows has a good swap out strategy is another discussion). 512MB for XP is very adequate.
In fact, imaging programming for a CPU whose instructions have unpredictable execution speeds and results.
Then it wouldn't be programming anymore, it would be guessing. Sure, you can make best guesses, but that's it. Management is trying to make "best guesses" so that the company will flourish.
But the important point is why did Joe Sixpack expect to run everything including all of the flashy bits? Does Joe Sixpack expect to buy any game off the shelf (including Crysis) and run it on full res with all of the effects or does he expect to have to make do with older games/lower settings?
Two different things: in one case he gets hardware with the promise that the software will run, with the latter, he buys software and disregarded the minimum system requirements. Quite a difference.... It's the "promise" that hasn't been held. Since we're now in bad-car-analogies (which I have been trying to avoid, buy you started it), it's a bit like buying a car and getting the promise that you will be able to run it on ethanol when ethanol is "released". However, when ethanol is "released", you notice that in reality all you can do is run E15. They didn't lie, you can run it on ethanol, you just need 85% of regular gas anyway.
I don't know much about cars, but if I saw "150mph capable" on a Fiat Punto then I'd think "yeah, maybe on a test track but I'm never getting that in real life, I'll make do with the realistic 70mph on the motorway".
As said, I've been trying to avoid car analogies because at this point, I'm simply going to say: yes, I would expect that Punto to run 150mph on a motorway. I have a 247kmh rated car, and I did that, on a motorway. I would have been extremely disappointed if it wouldn't hold up. My wife has a more reasonable car, and I think it's rated 170kmh. I haven't tested it yet, but on clear roads 170kmh is easy to attain. You don't do this crap when there is much traffic *and* you damn well hope that there are no cops underway or your license is bust.
My second car was capable of 200kmh, you only needed 10minutes to attain it.;-) However, it did it.... With Vista, Aero will simply not run. Not even at 1fps. I hope you see the difference.
Anyway, gotta run.... 't was nice arguing with you.
Slashdot Mirror
That's sad...
+1, Insightful
Universal Turing Machine. Pen and lots of paper.... The person who came up with it didn't have computers at his disposal.
Such a thing as "community college" doesn't even exist in my country. They are all officially sanctioned Universities. Sure it isn't an MIT.
Where I studied, it was part of the Maths faculity. Exactly where it ought to be.
However, none of that is part of computer science...Except problem solving.... If they only did problem solving in high school. As said in other posts, I've been a highschool "computer science" teacher. Problem solving is the A++ grade students stuff. Believe me on that one.
I learnt programming on my own. I thought "computer science" would be easy-peasy. Ha! Dream on! Most of it is pure maths. Not that I didn't manage, and I'm proud of what I achieved.
Europe, Belgium. University of Antwerp. We did all of those things. Not sure about database theory (locking, etc...) I think that was the second year CS.
I knew you'd be out there :-)
Ehm.... Whatever you say, but I went to University in Europe and I paid 500€/year or so.... That was it... No debt required.
Yeah, you're right... But alas, there aren't much computer scientist jobs out there.... I'll do my best to be a second rate computer-engineer, okay?
Where I live, you're better of being a business programmer than a computer scientist.... Even though the former will take a bubble sort, and the latter will pull his hair out if he sees him doing it. Explains why I lost so much hair the last ten years.
However, that's just a phenomenon from the last five years or so (when computers started to be cheap and graphical user interfaces were stable). I say five years, because Windows 95 came out in (duh) late 1995 and people needed to grew up with it to think "they could operate a computer". Someone going to college in 1995, having computer experience would know the pre-95 days. I remember a girl (!) in my first year. She had never turned on a computer in her whole life, but was mathematically inclined and interested in computers. She graduated the same year I did (means: without failing) and she did that magna cum laude. That was possible back then. (It's just too bad, I never noticed that she had cast an eye on me...)
Now, I hear adults (+40yo) say their kids "understand computers" and I get batshit mad about that. They don't understand anything, their computers are infested with spyware, they don't understand the difference between RAM and harddisk, they just know how to install World of Warcraft and God help them if someone disabled Autorun. I've been a highschool "computer science" teacher. It's disheartening.
I'm not rude, but I have serious objections with calling "programming" the equivalent of "computer science". I had the sad experience of being a high school teacher and they called "computer science" (or at least the equivalent of that in my language) courses that covered Word, Excel and Access.
Besides, programming is not computer science. Computer science can be learned entirely with pen and paper. Programming is going to be a tad harder to learn without actually trying what you wrote. (1,2,3....Cue in the guy who wrote programs in the fifties when computer time was extremely expensive.)
Exactly! What many people forget is that computer scientists have extreme versatility. One day we code a library, the next we put the foundations of a corporate architecture. It's a stupid example, but I've been doing Java for pretty much the last 10 years. Last month someone needed a C coder (plain C99, not C++) and nobody of the "regular Java programmers" would even dare to take the project. I did.... Two days later, I felt 100% at home with my couple of terms vi, make and valgrind. Coding test-units to be sure my libs are correct. It's just wonderful! (I was truly tired of Java, but is just a small project, I'll have to go back in a few weeks... *sigh*)
Alas, when applying for a job, they only look at your(professional) experience... Anything done at home in your spare time doesn't count. It's sad :-(
Including Big-O notation? Datastructures (linked-lists, hashtables, b-trees, 2-3 trees)? Database design with practical SQL? Turing machines? Church thesis?
That's just the first year computer science.... You highschool offered exactly what of those? If you say VB/Java/C(++)/Pascal, you're not even entering in the realm of computer science.
That's not exactly bad news.
I started computer science in 1994, when the boom was not yet there. Most people then were passionate about computers, maths and programming. When I graduated, a friend of mine stayed as a PhD candidate. The classes enlistment had then quintupled compared to our class, and one thing was clear: those that were there, were not passionate about the subject. They were there because it promised a golden career. They had also really trouble getting people to actually pass the first year.
So, I hope that computer science graduation is down because those that belong there are attending. Not those that just want to make big bucks because it's an "in profession".
Assuming the grandparent is European as I am: No, we aren't. We have some, ehm, nasty history and all is not rosy either. However, he probably just *imitated* the smugness we had to suffer from Americans from the last ~60 years. Actually, when we talk to foreigners we never boast our freedom, we just talk about cultural differences. Freedom usually never comes up, unless talking with Americans, for some odd reason....
Why in hell would one want to have a laptop that is branded after a car? I don't see the point... I wouldn't want to buy a Porsche, BMW, Mercedes or Audi branded laptop either.
I have seen exactly that, numerous times. Usually it ends up in a BSoD at bootup. It only happens when system files are corrupted due to the harddisk. If it's "only" your data that is corrupted, the system will run sweet as ever.
I grant you Windows 98. However Windows 2000 on a 64MB box? Never. Back when W2k was in SP0 phase, I ran it on a P-III 800MHz that had a whopping 256Meg RAM. It was unbearable.... It was unbearable while 98 ran fine. Only when I upgraded to 256MB, it ran fine. Do also keep in mind that 98 to W2k was an architectural change. W2k to XP was an evolution (and the memory requirements only doubled after XP SP2 came out, before that they were on par with W2k). XP to Vista is also just an evolution, but it put the bar very very high. None of the machines I currently posses (ranging from 10 to 1 year old) are able to run it fully featured. That isn't a good sign.
True, true.... But then I'll be there posting that Vista on a 1GB system was pure horror ;-) On a more realistic note, you have to realise that the scenario you describe needs a transition from, 32-bit to 64-bit (just ignore PAE for now, mmkay?) and as far as I can see Vista (the ones sold at best-buy) is still 32-bit (I know there is a 64-bit version, but is Joe User going to buy it? At a a premium?) 8Gig machines on a 32-bit platform? I don't think so....
Just for another reality check: I ran Windows XP Pro on a 600MHz P-III with 512Meg RAM for about two years. That machine was absolutely usable and I could run iTunes, OpenOffice.org 2.0 (at the time), Firefox 1.5.x, Thunderbird 1.5.x, AVG Antivirus, Gnucleus, Truecrypt, GAIM (Pidgin, back then it was called GAIM), and "Media Player Classic" at the same time. Heck, even Eclipse (not know for its frugality on the memory aspect) ran just fine for smaller projects. I only bought a new laptop because it physically started to fall apart!
Anyone saying that 512MB for XP is borderline has simply no clue.... I'd say that 512MB is advisable as a minimum, but it will work great if you have 512MB.
Yes, this was a fully patched XP SP2....
The fun part is that upgrading the harddisk had more impact on the performance than going from 256MB to 512MB. (It was a laptop and the old laptop harddisk was really, really, slow...
My dad uses a P-III 733MHz/512Meg RAM laptop with XP Pro to this day.... Yes, he's a poweruser and does database stuff with his laptop. It's amazing.
*blinks* Are you for real? 512MB is quite adequate for XP. That's what my wifes machine had before I upgraded it and that only because the RAM was on sale. I have a good dozen programms running in WinXP Pro and I have... wait for it.... 547MB used... So, yes, it would hit a bit on swap... However, with a good swap out strategy , it would be stuff I rarely use (if Windows has a good swap out strategy is another discussion). 512MB for XP is very adequate.
You have a very odd definition of "old"
Then it wouldn't be programming anymore, it would be guessing. Sure, you can make best guesses, but that's it. Management is trying to make "best guesses" so that the company will flourish.
What's the harm?.
Two different things: in one case he gets hardware with the promise that the software will run, with the latter, he buys software and disregarded the minimum system requirements. Quite a difference.... It's the "promise" that hasn't been held. Since we're now in bad-car-analogies (which I have been trying to avoid, buy you started it), it's a bit like buying a car and getting the promise that you will be able to run it on ethanol when ethanol is "released". However, when ethanol is "released", you notice that in reality all you can do is run E15. They didn't lie, you can run it on ethanol, you just need 85% of regular gas anyway.
As said, I've been trying to avoid car analogies because at this point, I'm simply going to say: yes, I would expect that Punto to run 150mph on a motorway. I have a 247kmh rated car, and I did that, on a motorway. I would have been extremely disappointed if it wouldn't hold up. My wife has a more reasonable car, and I think it's rated 170kmh. I haven't tested it yet, but on clear roads 170kmh is easy to attain. You don't do this crap when there is much traffic *and* you damn well hope that there are no cops underway or your license is bust.
My second car was capable of 200kmh, you only needed 10minutes to attain it. ;-) However, it did it.... With Vista, Aero will simply not run. Not even at 1fps. I hope you see the difference.
Anyway, gotta run.... 't was nice arguing with you.