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CS Degrees Low in 2007 But Bouncing Back
An anonymous reader writes "The number of undergraduate computer science degrees awarded last year hit a new low with the Class of 2007. The degrees awarded, 8,000, as tracked by the Computing Research Association, is only half of what it was five years ago. In 2003-04 — the high point of this decade — 14,185 students were awarded bachelors degrees in computer science from the 170 PhD granting universities tracked by the CRA. That said, after a decade of severe declines, the number of students at top universities declaring themselves as computer science majors is finally seeing an increase. Though it's only a small increase, it's an increase nonetheless. Experts attribute the shift to changes in job market, and also to changes in curriculum and the marketing of comp sci programs."
How did this not make it in to the summary?
Badass Resumes
That's not exactly bad news.
I started computer science in 1994, when the boom was not yet there. Most people then were passionate about computers, maths and programming. When I graduated, a friend of mine stayed as a PhD candidate. The classes enlistment had then quintupled compared to our class, and one thing was clear: those that were there, were not passionate about the subject. They were there because it promised a golden career. They had also really trouble getting people to actually pass the first year.
So, I hope that computer science graduation is down because those that belong there are attending. Not those that just want to make big bucks because it's an "in profession".
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
I'm not sure how it is in other areas, but my local high school in NJ has cut most of its computer science courses from the cirriculum two years in a row. It prevented me from taking the AP course. I can only hope it didn't discourage anyone from a career path.
http://www.cra.org/wp/index.php?p=139
Because declaring a major (thankfully) does not bind you to it for better or worse. A lot of students don't like all the theory and others don't like all the coding -- not sure what some come in expecting.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
The programming courses are so simple, but you have to take courses like Calculus IV and Physics II.
I'm doing fine in my math and science, but I'm betting not everybody is. I'm not quite sure why you need all of this excessive math and science (except when the Computer Science is in the School of Engineering--but not all colleges are like this).
I've been programming for years--with code in many Open Source projects like Nmap, Metasploit and the Linux Kernel--but I did this without the courses at my college. Other people are probably realizing they can do the same and picking different majors to avoid the higher-level math and science.
But, hey, I'm just a CS major bored in my classes.
Are these numbers perhaps misleading as being representative of all universities? Certainly there may be reductions of numbers at the ivy leagues, but on my college campus the place seems to be awash with CS majors (that and sociology). Perhaps the percieved decline in numbers may be indicative of the CS bubble bursting. There was a time when computer science seemed like the ticket to a decent job, but increasingly it seems devalued by the gamut of lesser IT certifications which seem to be of equal value in the eyes of less tech-savvy employers.
Certainly I speak only from what I myself have seen and might be speaking from the depths of my ignorance.
8,000... is only half of what it was five years ago.
This seems to imply that five years ago [2002-2003], there were twice as many as 8,000 [16,000].
In 2003-04 -- the high point of this decade -- 14,185 students were awarded bachelors degrees in computer science...
This on the other hand seems to imply that four years ago, ~14,000 was the highest figure in the last ten years.
Huh?
I will be graduating this semester with my Masters in Computer Science. Personally, if industry didn't judge one's pay or career advancement by what sheepskin they had I probably would not have ever gone to school. I am a self learner and would have had the self discipline to buy the books and teach myself. With the Internet the free resources are endless. In retrospect, I feel as though I have learned little other than to turn in assignments on time and make the grade. It is a shame that the world places such high value on the "degree."
My undergrad did a fine job of teaching me, but they don't grant Ph.D's - why don't I count?
My blog
Do we really need quantity? I'd rather have quality. Ten fuckwits easily negate the positive impact of one good programmer/cs guy.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
There are plenty of good colleges that don't grant PhDs that graduate Bachelors and Masters of CSc.
8,000 is not half of 14,185.
And how can we be at the end of "a decade of severe declines" when the high point was five years ago? A decade of decline does not necessarily mean a strictly decreasing sequence, but if the number of degrees granted in 2003-2004 was higher than the numbers for 2000-2001, 2001-2002, and 2002-2003--sounds like five years of decline, not a decade.
And maybe I'm just a cynic, but "changes in curriculum and the marketing of comp sci programs" sounds like "we're turning science programs into vo-tech training for engineers and programmers."
This story will probably just spur another dozen threads of whining about all the math required for any decent comp sci program.
Now get off my lawn.
For the majority of prospective students, a CS degree is no longer a smart choice in the game of life. Those who want long-term stability in a profession will likely choose another field.
- you may have a high salary but when you divide it by how many hours you work, you could be making more money per hour and having fun doing something else
- companies send the jobs to somewhere in the world where employees are cheap, executives who do the cutting get gigantic bonuses on top of gigantic salaries
- companies talk about hiring "superstar" programmers when what they really need are good processes and tools to help people communicate and design good products; few organizations invest in people, many waste time trying to find Code Messiahs
- hiring good managers is much more than just promoting "technical" people into management
- open-source is cool and changing the way people think, but unless your a member of a certain kind of company, you'll need a day-job too (o:
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
I have no idea why we would need so many Computer Scientists... at least the company I work for needs developers, and writing good software is NOT what you learn at a university. That's not the focus of a university degree: the focus is to create scientiest or maybe managers, but not "workers". But you just can't run a business with 10 managers and 1 worker.
:-) When you build a house you need one or a few architects but you need a lot more construction workers that actually implement the architect's vision. And I think in the software industry we don't have enough of these (trained) construction workers as the focus seems to be almost exclusivly on the architects.
I don't want to say a CS degrees is worthless, au contraire. But I think the focus should shift more to other means of computer education. Most companies don't need people who know all the math theory you can find in The Art Of Computer Programming, but people who can write solid code for the small everyday software development tasks that make up the majority of a software project. They must know their tools (softwares and APIs) and need to know the common mechanisms (e.g. what's a linked list and how does it work, what's a singleton pattern, etc. pp.). For most of this stuff you really don't need to study to understand them, IMHO
As a CS major myself, I blame our poor education system for the decrease in CS majors.
Our current public school system is not doing its job of educating young people. Public schools have spoon-fed students all their lives and continue to pass students that should very well fail. This leads to a very lazy mind set. As a result, you have a large amount of college-age adults who are too lazy to pursue something that requires work, like a CS degree. These lazy students would rather get a general IT certification and call it a day.
I'm just glad that the number is still low. The job market for IT people sucks in my area (a friend in HR reports that a recent entry-level Technician posting got 120 applicants), so the fewer CS grads I have to compete with, the better it is for me.
...but the general enrollment trend is often cited as an argument for increasing the H-1B visa cap, which is used by skilled workers. Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates has cited declines in computer science enrollment as a reason for opening up the U.S. to more skilled workers and will likely make that argument when he appears March 12 before the U.S. House Science and Technology Committee.Pure Truthiness. Bilbo has it backwards. H1-B's are causing the decline in CS enrollment. Lifting the cap will cause further decline.
He must still be bitten by the entire anti-trust fiasco, and now uses the gov't as his tool, after ignoring and being dumped on by it.
I came from a class of 3 that graduated last year.
Honestly, the courses were too easy or too hard. I think it was just that Math or business was just easier to work with, since your pencil and paper never require manipulating executive files and messing with header files.
I think that perhaps, it's not that it is too low or that students aren't hearing about the major, but rather not many like having to beat their heads over learning Dijkstra, Euler, and what the Big O's of the typical data structures or whatever weed out subjects are.
What I think would be more interesting is seeing how many minors are being sought by other disciplines for CS and what CS majors are taking for a minor
Either way, I was put on contract before graduating then another one a few months later. I'm pretty happy so far, but wonder if I'll be content once I look for a bit more permanent job (if such things still exist)
import system.cool.Sig;
(This is gonna go all over the place but bear with me.)
;)
A big problem I see today is not a lack of students attempting to get into the industry but a lack of qualified teachers who know not only the topic but also how to convey the ideas and thinking required to push people to really understand what their being tought as opposed to simply studying for the test or doing the labs till they are done.
The biggest problem I see myself at the University I attend (Temple University, Philadelphia) is that the math while pretty important in a CS degree is pretty much useless in an IS&T degree, yet we are still required to take Calculus, Statistics, and Logic. Because of this inconsistency we have a high abandonment percentage from CS to IS&T. Further compounding the problem is a lack of teachers who can actually teach well. Many of them can't even speak English well enough for the majority of students to understand. Now I'm an immigrant to the US myself (came from Ukraine when I was 6 yrs old), I speak fluent Russian, but if my teacher is teaching in English and he can't speak well enough he should not be teaching.
An top of all of this, the technologies being tought resemble the tech industry in the late 90's, not the late 00's. Almost all of the faculty leans towards Linux but when it comes to the actual curriculum, ASP.NET, Visual Basic, Java, and MS-SQL. All tools in the programmer's toolbox have their place, including Microsoft ones but can we please have some diversity and common sense? Teach whatever is most in demand in the industry. Not simply what has always been in the curriculum. I'm glad to say that some of the faculty is listening and I'll be teaching a seminar on PHP & AJAX w/ Prototype in April.
What does all this essentially mean?
I see the talented and smart professionals in our industry continually go out of school and move on giving nothing back to the educational community. This essentially means a brain drain in our universities being caused by talent simply being hired off and who teaches the next generation? The same old mid-range people.
Granted I'm talking about a pretty weak university in the grand scheme of things but it's the middle and bottom universities that form the bulk of the work industry in the world. Not the Harvards, MITs, and Stanfords.
I work for a decent sized multi-national and our office handles most of the procurement. People with CS degrees or who are just good with computers often work their way up the chain much quicker.
I know there's always talk about programming jobs being outsourced. Get a degree in business and maybe minor in CS (or vice versa) and you will be an extremely marketable person. We hired on a contract programmer a couple years ago into our group. He has the same responsibilities as the rest of us (although his specific area isn't as difficult as others) and he also programs many small applications for us to make the tedious work managable.
Prove that you can work with MS Access or MS Excel or write small applications and you will become an office hero.
I've done pretty well for myself since graduating almost 4 years ago, but if I had to do it over again I would've taken some CS related classes.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
I guess I went from a CS major first year to applying to law schools this year, so maybe you're onto something. However, I'm not going to blow money on a hugely expensive, crappy car that says "BMW" on it.
Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
I was one such potential CS student a few years ago. I majored in something else, but got back into CS quickly after discovering Perl. Perl got me inspired to take a bunch of CS of courses such as Computer Architecture, Compilers, and Operating Systems. I'm now entering the work force as a Computer Scientist after graduating this May thanks to the lack of graduating CS students
Things to consider:
- the IT field is one of the hardest hit in case of a recession; this means that when things go bad they go really bad
- if it isn't a passion of your you will not enjoy it; it's long hours and crunch time exists almost always
- most programmers I've seen in my 12 years of programming have burned out and done other stuff instead. They would have been better off studying in a field they liked because now it's too late for them to tackle their true career of choice
- money isn't all it's cracked up to be in the IT field but it varies more than with many other jobs. For example someone passionate with great talent can get paid twice what another senior gets. In some parts of North America the salary is as low as 35k/year.
- if you want to hit the higher salaries you have to specialize into something and become a well known expert. This means blogging about your skill and doing presentations at conferences.
- your brain deteriorates with time and you can't code as fast as you could when you were 10 years younger. Getting old in our field is worse than it is in others. Even venture capitalists expect to invest in young talent. This means your window of opportunity is small.
You must answer a resounding yes to the following questions:
Do you code one week ends? Do you write software for fun? Do you enjoy sitting down and thinking really hard for long periods of time?
If that suits you then take the blue pill.
Ehm.... Whatever you say, but I went to University in Europe and I paid 500€/year or so.... That was it... No debt required.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Am I the only one that wishes that it WOULDN'T bounce back? Less CS graduates means less competition for the rest of us.
I didn't take `Computer Science` because I couldn't see a course in the entire world that I found interesting. I found what was on offer too theoretical, and programming everywhere. I didn't want to study computers, I wanted to have fun using them.
So I took Geology.
Science = The collective discipline of study or learning acquired through the scientific method; the sum of knowledge gained from such methods and discipline. A small and specialized subject.
I hope something comes out where I can play. Because play is natural learning.
A blog I run for the wealth
And it doesn't make sense now.
"Higher maths and hard (as opposed to soft) sciences mercilessly teach problem solving and deduction"
The teach problem solving and deduction. There's simply no way you or anyone else can correctly claim "higher math" is necessary for those skills, a well constructed logic course can teach them without any higher math.
If you want someone to have certain skills, you teach those skills, you DON'T throw them in a class comprised of some stuff they'll need and a bunch of stuff they won't.
I think the reality is, the people teaching CS suffer the same failures as other instructors. ER docs have to work ridiculous hours for no reason than everyone else did it. CS profs are the same, I did the math so you will too, and who cares if you need it.
That's simply not good enough.
The prospect of a career migrating web scripts between Python, Ruby, & J2EE definitely doesn't have the appeal that 1st generation dot coms offered. It's not the student interest as much as the fact that Web 2.0 isn't the completely new territory that Web 1.0 was.
There might be new interest from the latest surge of robotics, but that's mainly done in Europe & once Dubya is gone, there won't be any more military robots h.e.r.e...
Silicon Valley is slow & stodgy about new territory. It's going to be Web scripts for a long time.
That ignores all the second-tier schools that only offer bachelor's and master's degrees. I hold a BSc in CS from such an institution, and not including these schools is pretty poor statistics.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
As a first year arts student (I was planning to become a lawyer one day) I am being persuaded to switch to comp sci. Here in Vancouver there is a huge demand for programmers with companies like EA etc. One problem is that I love writing, and even though I don't hate calculus, I don't enjoy it either. Would it be possible for me to successfully become a programmer even though I am more of an arts guy, because I could still get into law school with a degree in comp sci, I get A's and I pwn sample LSATs
Orbis terrarum est non altus satis
my understanding is they provide something roughly equivalent to the "intro to programming" courses that most U's offer, along with some basic data structures, object oriented programming.
The algorithms stuff in intro to programming courses is often quite good, although not demonstrated in a systematic manner, since explaining the mathematical underpinnings and the general theory is way more than you can teach in a quarter.
The point is to get people solid experience programming, but also to give them experience program solving. Additionally a good school will make you actually write decent code, and get rid of that scripty one big main function style that most programmers start out with.
The value of this stuff can't be underestimated. Remember, *everyone* starts out a shitty programmer and only progresses to a decent programmer through a ton of work. Frankly, most people don't actually progress that far.
And the problem solving stuff! You can *never* get too much of that. Later on you can be more systematic about it, but honestly, ad hoc problem solving is good solid experience that caries forward into being about to handle both the theory and practice aspects later.
Such a thing as "community college" doesn't even exist in my country. They are all officially sanctioned Universities. Sure it isn't an MIT.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Seriously, who cares? These companies don't. They only want experienced coders/software engineers. Try getting a BS in CS and going to get a job. It doesn't happen.
But then, the industry is about to sabotage those poor CS grads with L-1 and L-2 visa holders ...
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
> Experts attribute the shift to changes in job market, and also to changes in curriculum and the marketing of comp sci programs
I wonder who those "experts" are? I also wonder if the grads are Americans, or if they are just training in the USA.
Is the market for CS grads getting better? I sure don't see it. Salaries seem to be stagnant, job requirements seem to be way up, the IT field looks more demanding, and less secure, than ever.
Companies are breaking their necks to hire more H1Bs, and to offshore more jobs. Traditional barriers to offshoring jobs are being broken down.
Other countries are cranking out CS grads at a furious rate. And those grads are happy to work for $5 an hour, or less.
Of course, a CS degree could be valuable. But it's hard for me to imagine that a CS degree is the best thing an intelligent, ambitious, American can do with his/her life.
Am I wrong? Am I missing something?
Mod me down, if you like, but just look at the job boards.
Employers practically never require any degree at all for most development or admin jobs. And when they do ask for a degree it's something like: "CS, or some technical discipline, or similar, or equivalent."
About half the people working in IT do not have any degree, the other half are just as likely to have degrees in literature, or art history.
A BSCS is as difficult to get as degree in engineering, but as worthless as a degree in liberal arts.
Computer science isn't a science, and it isn't even about computers.
I'd like to welcome you to this course on Computer Science. Actually that's a terrible way to start, Computer Science is a terrible name for this business. First of all, it's not a Science. It might be engineering or it might be art, although we'll actually see that Computer (so-called) "Science" actually has a lot in common with magic. And you'll see that in this course
So it's not a Science. It's also not really very much about Computers. Computer Science is not about computers in the same way that Physics is not about particle accelerators and Biology is not really about microscopes and petri dishes.
-- Hal Abelson, professor MIT - Lecture 1a: Overview and Introduction to Lisp
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
As one of the aforementioned washouts of CS, the reasons why people went in to it we're always vague in my class. I asked multiple people and not one of them could tell me what a computer scientist really does, besides the odd answer of "programming and shit". Not only we're visions of cash in their heads, but often promoted by the teachers. I left after losing it against all that theoretical frigging math and the professors who couldn't speak English at all trying to write all the notes in pure mathematic notation, with no understandable explanation. I enrolled in a college for basic IT work, and not only am I happier with it, I feel like I'm learning more. I still talk to a few of the old co-students, and it's a split between doing alright and scraping hard and being miserable. The odd person thinks I'm wasting my time, but they never spent their Thursday nights screaming and ranting in the RIM parking lots with a donair in their hand, or being so stressed out they couldn't read a menu. It's probably just me though; I'm more into the physical side of computers, with the odd bit of play in code land.
Derth of graduates
Sinking Dollar and rising foreign currencies.
Rising foreign inflation and wages.
1/3 of the workforce retiring between now and 2013.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
God forbid people getting into a job so they can make enough money to become financially secure.
Golden careers? That's for people who want to retire comfortably and be able to support a family.
Real computer science people work for peanuts with a smile.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
I was valedictorian of my undergraduate college. My time there wasn't challenging at all, and I often had to fill in the gaps my formal education left on my own. Following my graduation, I applied to several of the ivies - and some other good schools in my area - to do my Ph. D. I wanted a challenge. I was prepared to do a lot of work if it was required of me. I wanted to become the best researcher I could be, studying interesting problems under the best researchers in the field.
I was rejected from all of them (except Columbia, which would only accept me as an MS student in their engineering program, while I wanted to do scientific research). I am now in another easy school for my Ph. D., still not being challenged. I applied again after publishing some things and getting an MS after the first year of my Ph. D., with the same outcome. Since I can't imagine going through another Ph. D., my graduation from my current program is likely the endpoint of my formal education - and from start to finish, it has been inadequate, despite my wishes.
My point is that you presume that a choice always exists in the matter; that everyone who needs a challenge will receive one. Admission to a highly competitive school is not a sure thing, even with exceptional credentials, and there are many variables you cannot control in the process (I've heard that the existence of close ties between your professors and those in the school you're applying to is a particularly important one). Yes, perhaps I could have gotten in if I had decided to pursue my Ph. D. in, say, computer graphics, instead of the study of algorithms, or perhaps I could have gained admission to a competitive school on the other side of the country had I looked, but there's only so much you can ask someone to sacrifice when your dream schools are all right here, doing the work you want to do, and they won't take you.
That said, neither my BS or MS, nor my Ph. D. when I attain it, are worthless. The universities may not be prestigious and the degrees alone may not mean much, but what I've done while attaining them has given them worth beyond their stature.
The problem remains that electronics and computer science is an extremely unstable career choice that doesn't really pay all that well either.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
WTF? Is this some kind of robot?
.
I like my job security and relatively decent money I make. Let's dilute some other job market instead. I heard folks in the medical and legal field make a lot more per hour and it wouldn't necessarily hurt anybody if their services became just a bit cheaper. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Kthxbye. Back to coding.
Grandparent's post about H1Bs makes a perfectly valid point. And the post was not raciest in the least.
The flood of offshore IT labor being imported, and the flood of IT jobs being exported, is an entirely valid consideration to those considering CS studies.
Speak english well!!! I've done 12 inteviews for level 1 and 2 software engineers over the last few months and of those 12 only
2 were not Chinese. I have nothing against Chinese SW engineers but how about a few that can speak a flavor of english I can
actually understand?? Nothing like talking to someone that speaks english like a 5 year old on an IP phone connection. It's like
communicating with and alien through a rip in space-time. Very SciFi....
Those experts are weasels.
I was in a Computer Science degree program back in the mid-90s. I ended up dropping out due to an employer and shift change that made it impossible for me to continue taking classes due to scheduling issues. I didn't feel too bad about that though, because...
The CS program was so outdated it was laughable. The required courses covered basics that even at that time were common knowledge among any computer enthusiasts. For example- I was required to take a "Introduction to Computer Keyboarding" class, which covered touch typing and those mysterious Function Keys, as well as how to execute such important maneuvers as [CTRL]+C. They managed to stretch this to en entire semester! I also had to take an "Introduction to Computers" class, including such topics as "This is what a hard disk drive looks like." and "How to install memory". These are classes I had to pay for, and buy books for. The real excitement began when I had to learn PASCAL, which had been a dead language for probably five years at that point.
At the time- I had a (shit-worthless) Associates Degree in Electronics, had been a database manager and mainframe computer operator (IBM) for five years (each), and had over 20 years of computer experience overall. I learned BASIC on a teletype machine, had almost every "PC" since the beginning, and was well-versed in CP/M before DOS was inflicted on the world.
Around 2000, I talked to a recruiter for one of those nationwide "Get your degree on your own schedule." Universities about thier CS program. Guess what- they have semester long "Introduction to Computer Keyboarding" and "Introduction to Computers" classes too. AND- I HAVE to take them (again) because they won't accept the classes I took previously! They also wouldn't give me any credit at all for working as a computer professional for 15+ years. The up-side: they are teaching C++, and not PASCAL.
So- unless things have really changed since then- CS degree programs are a joke, and I can see why their numbers are low. Real computer people aren't going to take them, because they are required to work so far beneath their ability. If I have to pay an educational institution- I want to pay for classes that are actually relevant in today's working world that are going to challenge me to learn more. Right now- I get PAID to attack challenges working for a corporation.
...the Software Engineering grads are increasing. That'll be when this line of talk really means something. Until then, it's still just a junk degree as it is too much theory and not enough practice.
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
It's no surprise really. Students have been told by the media that CS degrees will be outsourced to cheap countries and the jobs are hard. The effect is that students pursue easier degrees (more party time in college man!) that will probably pay poorly (easy degrees -> easier to get -> more degrees -> more supply -> lower pay) rather than pursue a career in CS that pays well and MAY be impacted by outsourcing. Sigh.
While you're continually writing programs to demonstrate your new theories, you become a good programmer. Theorists don't need to take a "best practices" class, or whatever.
Now, I know this is not what you meant, but:
Where does this "theorists can't program!" myth come from? If you're going to study theory, it's just assumed that you can program in like, twenty languages. And if you don't know a language, you can pick it up in a day or two. And you can write good programs in functional style one day and imperative the next without saying stuff like, "Lisp is soooo weird!" or "what is Haskell?"
When one reads TFA, one discovers that the article is talking about a difference in enrollment around 1% from 2006 to 2007. They also only count programs at institutions that also have PhD programs. (While most of the good schools do have PhD programs, there are some fine institutions that do not.) I'd tag this as !news; it doesn't say anything significant.
If you already have an MSCS, and you are already well established, then that is one thing.
But, what if you just now deciding on your major? Is CS really the best way to go? Considering the flat salaries, massive offshoring, and very uncertain future?
Is it possible that you would be better off going into medicine, or law, or something else?
From the link you provided:
"According to Robert Half Technology, starting salaries for software engineers . . . "
Again, asking Robert Half if it's a good time to go into CS, is like asking a realtor if it's a good time to buy a house.