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Internet Pranks in Schools
Ferante125 writes "An interesting article about online pranks by students and teachers' responses to them. There are some interesting stats that sounded a little hard to believe. My immature side finds it funny and my more mature side is interested in the legal aspects." For the most part it seems like this article thinks pranks are basically just name calling and flaming on websites.
Hmm, interesting article. The definition of "prank" isn't just name calling and flaming. We have to re-define the term to include modern equivalent actions that corresponds to the term "prank". What is an acceptable on-line prank and what isn't?
:(){
In grade 8 mid-last-decade a friend and I wrote a little BASIC program on our class's standalone Apple IIe something like this:
10 ? "Bwahahaha! I am the Michaelangelo virus!";
20 GOTO 10
This caused a bit of a stir in our class for half a day before we fessed up. I suppose I'm fortunate to have escaped without prosecution.
If the gap between teachers and pupils is as large as the one between parents and children then it is no surprise that todays teachers really don't know what to do with the technology savvy generation that is about to supplant them.
Schools haven't got a clue about the internet, how to use it and what it could bring them. Pupils are running circles around their supposed betters and are showing earlier in life a degree of independence that teachers wished they had had when they were young. Todays youth are so connected using cellphones, the net and social networking that they are as alien from the previous generation as any that has ever been.
MP3 Search Engine
Well thank god these aren't Internet Pranks and are instead internet Pranks. Lord knows what teachers would do if they really used the Internet to pull this shit off!
Obviously these students need to be indoctrinated in the latest Internet memes:
There were no rickrolls, and not even a single Longcat reference.
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
In the so-called "Teacher Sux" case in Pennsylvania, for example, a high school student put up a website about a teacher with threats and comments such as "she shows off her fat ... legs."
Critics, however, contend that words like "annoy" and "embarrass" are too broad and may infringe upon First Amendment protections of parody.
Honestly, if she had fat legs and someone pointed it out to her in person would they have criminal/civil court documents filed over it? No, they would get detention/short-term suspension and move on with their lives. The recent rise in people being upset that a co-worker won't speak to them and is "threatening" because they dress in all black and wear sunglasses or that someone doesn't like them is created by this trend in secondary education that teaches people to behave like this.
I just can't understand why a grown adult would not be able to leave the house because some little fucking bastard said she had fat legs on the Internet. Both the adult and the student need to grow up -- fast.
With the rate of growth of technology being greater than exponential this gap is just going to increase. We are running into a major revolution in society where the old paradigms simply won't work. The only problem is that those with the authority to make the changes, almost by definition, don't have the understanding.
But then, back in the 60's we thought that we were the misunderstood generation who were going to sweep away all the old farts and bring in the dawning of the age of Aquarius so some things don't change.
init 11 - for when you need that edge.
Yet another reason that if/when I have kids, I'm homeschooling. They don't have to put up with juvenile behavior, learn how to socialize from adults and kids I get to choose, and generally stay ahead of the mediocrity known as public education.
No thanks, I'll opt out.
i taught for a couple of years as a volunteer teacher for C++ while with a company that was nice enough to give me time off to do this.
one student disliked me so much he hacked AOL's IM database to disable my IM account.
i had evidence it was him as well as people telling me he was bragging about it. at the end of the day i just tossed it up and said "hey he's still a kid making mistakes he'll learn" maybe not the best choice but presenting my evidence to superiors would have ended in blank stares.
Exactly. What do you think is going to happen when you willingly put yourself in posistion of authority over adolecents. I really don't get why labelling things as "online" makes them new and edgy. Making fun of the teachers is going to happen in middle and high schools. It will/has happen(ed) by whatever means of communication kids use. A teacher claiming she can't work because she got made fun of is like a firefighter complaining he can't work because fires are hot.
If it was something dumb and non-harmful, it was good for a laugh... this is where most teachers fail it.
If it damaged an OS install, I'd make the kid stay after school the entire week and re-load every workstation image in the classroom each day.
If it escaped the local network and damaged something else (fortunately I never saw that happen), then the kid gets to face the consequences full-on, and I would've been stuck with preparing a forensics report to show how it happened and what I would do to prevent it in the future.
The point is to make this clear up-front, and if it isn't harmful, use it as a teaching aid. It also helps to know, as a techer, WTF you're doing around the machinery (unlike one Texas teacher who IIRC had a kid arrested for "hacking" because he used Windows Messenger to pass notes in class... can't remember the specifics, but it was a dumb overreaction to say the least).
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
".. as many as one-third of American teens regularly post inappropriate language or manipulated images on the Web"
What the hell are the other two thirds doing?
Back in the old days when computers were only just starting to make an appearance in schools, it was a good time for students who rapidly learnt how to use the computers better than their teachers. Changing easy guess passwords was seen to be cool if utterly pointless.
DISCLAIMER: I disavow all knowledge of how it was done.
Take Nobody's Word For It.
According to TFA, one teacher felt hurt because a student wrote, in a personal blog, that the teacher's legs were fat. She felt like she couldn't leave the house.
What a crock of shit. The kids would be gossiping about the teachers in the same way, even if the internet didn't exist. If the teacher cares this much about what her students think, she needs to get a different job. Even the article notes that in most of these cases, it's "incompetent staff members" that can't take it.
If you ask me, the idea of cyber-bullying is ridiculous, except in the most extreme cases (where it's generally against the law anyway, ie, hacking a webcam/phone for observation).
People need to toughen up, IMHO.
From TFA: "But there's been teachers that have left the profession or lost their jobs because of lies that have been told about them".
So the problem are people stupid enough to believe whatever they read on the Intarweb. Well... the solution is obvious! The teachers should post comments about how great they are, the many Nobel prizes and beauty contests they have won, and so on.
Putting your high school up for sale is a prank.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
Can you imagine the digital trail these kids are unknowingly leaving about their behavior on the net? Even now it's not unheard of to have employers google/myspace their applicants, on top of all the info aggregation services that are running wild out there.
It's going to be a hard lesson to learn (for those that commit serious enough 'offenses') but I strongly suspect that the next generation of kids will know the risks as they get pummeled by their school with "Cyber Bullying awareness" classes and such along with all the other becoming an adult type sex education classes.
I just can't understand why a grown adult would not be able to leave the house because some little fucking bastard said she had fat legs on the Internet. Both the adult and the student need to grow up -- fast.
What I don't understand is the complete lack of common sense that these "education professionals" employ.
Most people know that children cross the line at some point in their youth. Making mistakes is part of growing up. It's part of being human. I would think that teachers would realize this better than anyone else. Yet expulsions and getting the law involved for what amount to 21st century versions of what children have been doing for centuries seems to indicate the converse.
I wouldn't call the things in that article pranks. I'd call them nothing more than bullying or teasing. Granted they're using the internet to push that bullying/teasing to a much bigger audience, but that's all it really is.
Back when I was in high school (gawd I'm feeling really old all of a sudden) back before Windows 3.0 existed, before most people knew what the internet was, I pulled some real pranks. The school had a demerit system that was managed on the same computer system that they used to teach COBOL programming. (Yeah, that's the language they taught us way back then) So one day I hacked into the demerit system and gave a bunch of teachers and the headmaster demerits. Two days later an updated list was posted in the hallway and the whole school saw that the faculty were now getting demerits as well. Now THAT is a prank. While I was there I also did other things like launch fireworks in the middle of the campus on the headmasters birthday, helped move a VW Beetle into the dining room, and launched a helium-filled farewell sign to all the seniors when I graduated. Those are pranks. This article isn't about pranks.
It's actually management that's behind.
JP http://www.wearerite.com
Apparently it turns out that people say mean things on the Internet! And teenagers are not immune to this tendency!
This article has given me a new understanding of the world.
Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
FTA "Kids have been pulling pranks on teachers and principals since there have been schools in the US, but now there's an edge to it.. And kids in school before the discovery of the US never pulled pranks. Ever.
It's always funny until someone gets hurt. Then it's just hilarious. -B.Hicks-
Back in my day, when the teachers figured out I had basically unrestricted access to the school LAN and could send messages and such, they didn't call the law on me. They simply called me down to the office and told me that they would look the other way and make it worth my while if I would abuse my access to keep an eye on all the other little demons (and show them how to send messages). I learned that work means pay. We didn't even have to get to the threatening phase, and it was fun watching the other kids try to hack the teacher only to learn that they first had to go through me (but they didn't know it was me).
At what point is society going to get fed up and say "deal with it"? All this bullying and harassment protection crap has gone too far. When i was in school, pranks happened, you dealt with it. Now days people run to the police or courts every time someone calls them a name. I am not saying bullying and harassment are not bad and shouldn't be discouraged, but should it be a legal issue at all. Was i ever expelled when i wrote ~ teacher sux on the wall? whats so different about the internet. suck it up and deal with it. we are breeding whole generations of whiners and complainers. I dread to see what society is going to look like if this keeps up.
Dunno, our comp sci classes were pretty low brow, usually, when someone would step away from their computer in class, we'd open a web browser to something dirty like hardcore gay porn, then when they'd return act shocked and horrified as to what he/she was looking at in class.
MABASPLOOM!
Surrealism: You have two giraffes. The government pays you to take harmonica lessons.
I just can't understand why a grown adult would not be able to leave the house because some little fucking bastard said she had fat legs on the Internet. Both the adult and the student need to grow up -- fast. You have a point there - but there is a difference. As the amount of SPAM in most people's inboxes shows, the internet provides us with a terrifyingly efficient way of reaching large numbers of people. If you insult somebody face to face, that is between you and that person, and possibly a couple of people nearby, but what you put n the internet is visible to the whole world. This can easily be an overwhelming prospect for the victim of cyber-bullying. You know, even adults in high positions are just humans, and vulnerable.
This kind of thing got me kicked out of school some 7-8 years ago (not in the US though). And even though the site was created with only "good humor" in mind, teachers tend to disagree. Only after you do it you find out that the joke was on you.
If I could advise any of those kids from personal experience, I'd say: don't f-ing do it, think about it (specially in the CS/IT/ICT field).
When you're 16 this stuff is funny, but when you get older you realize that your future relies on this teacher, regardless of how much of an idiot he/she might seem to be.
this article vastly undermines the severity of this situation.
my wife is a teacher, and believe me, it is bad out there. she teaches 6th grade mathematics, and she is dealing with the internet, bullying, and humiliation on a weekly basis because of it. fortunately, the kids at her school aren't really old enough to know how to create proper websites yet, or dont have the money to sneak small webcams into the classroom, but their internet usage definitely affects the school environment.
with the prevalence of myspace, many kids are threatening each other and bullying each other over the internet (i still dont see how cyber-bullying is possible, since you can always just "not go to that site", but whatever...). they get caught up in the "he said, she said" game, and say some very awful things. teachers are all advised not to have myspace pages or facebook pages, for if they post pictures of them at the beach, at the bar, or even at home, children can and will spin them so that the teacher somehow comes across in a bad light. and the kids are so resourceful that they dont even take into account what a teacher says about themselves. one of my wife's coworkers had a friend sign her "wall" or whatever in myspace, and the comment left made a reference to a stripper or stripping (something along the lines of "you looked like a stipper that night"), and the kids in her class saw the comment and started telling people around the school that one of the teachers was a stripper. of course, this made it all the way to the parents, and they began calling the school. the kids spun something that someone else said, not even what the teacher said.
they are threatening each other, and posting inappropriate material about each other, which is creating fodder for the classrooms. 5th and 6th grade girls are posting pictures of themselves wearing little clothing, talking about their sexual experiences and knowledge online, and are basically begging to be preyed upon. what is worse is that the parents don't know and don't care. people can dismiss it as much as they want, and believe that it doesn't happen or that it is just a small percentage of kids. well, believe me, it is not. it is much worse than you think.
it is a parent's responsibility to know what their child is doing on the internet. those who say that it is "too much work" and that their kid is "smarter than i am" are full of it, because we often do meet the parents who put in the work, who monitor their children properly, and who properly look after their children and prevent this kind of behavior. we know that parents can handle it because there is still a small percentage out there who do it right. the rest of them need to look at themselves, and not their children, and certainly not the teachers.
teachers get paid a small amount of money to do a ton of work. my wife works 10 hour days, gets a 15 minute lunch, and is not only expected to be the one to educate them with the material that the school board deems appropriate (which grows larger every year), but yet she is expected to be their moral educator as well; a job she gladly does. most of them take pride in their work, and believe me, they hate giving out bad grades and low test scores because it makes them look bad. the problem with education these days is not the school, nor the teachers, nor the funding (believe it or not). it is the parents. parents have stopped being accountable. they have stopped checking their kids homework, monitoring their activity, and disciplining their children. they make excuses for their children (ADD, ODD, ADHD...), and often laugh at the behavior that their child is displaying. parenting in america has become a dismal affair.
If the teachers can't handle it, pull the computers from the K-12 system. Introduce computers at the college level. Since I don't think at the K-12 level, there's anything useful the teachers can teach.
For some reason they dont want this shown http://www.youtube.com/user/newmelbournite
Because in most people's mind "the intertube[sic]" is like that bit on a map that says "here be dragons".
America, Home of the Brave.
Because things on the Internet have the potential to (a) be seen by a lot more people, and (b) last almost forever. There's a difference between calling someone a fatass in the classroom or schoolyard, and doing it on youtube.
Yes it will happen, but no, it shouldn't happen. There's a difference between descriptive and normative ethics. For example, I have never heard of teachers were the pupils posted posters all over town describing how much they disliked them. And if it happened, I'm sure it would involve a criminal case. Kids need to learn that with greater power (the Internet) comes greater responsibility. If they can't handle that responsibility, they shouldn't use the Internet. Lots of people probably shouldn't (and now I'm talking about posting stuff, not using Internet banking or similar things that everybody needs to do).
Actually, firefighters do that all the time. Going into a burning building is a very high-risk operation, and you need to carefully examine many factors, including temperature, before you decide to enter. Similarly, school-teachers are, like most people, emotional beings, and if the abuse is to large, they can't continue teaching.
On the contrary, I began learning computers on my own at about 10 years old but schooling in the field at the 9-12 level really helped me develop into the field I wanted. I was exposed to computer science in high school and now I am nearly done with a degree in it. Holding off on computers until the college level could be HIGHLY detrimental to students, especially those that do not intend to go to college.
Crackin' Wise - Blogging about whatever we want
Hell, teachers today have little authority on anything that happens on school grounds. My wife teaches elementary music, and even at that age it's a little less than Lord of the Flies because the teachers can do little about behavior and the kids know it.
What is there to do when the kids keep upping the ante and there's no recourse on the school ground? Hit 'em were it hurts. Maybe if parents have to pay for a lawyer for mommy's little bastard's behavior, some parents will start, you know, parenting...
Nothing new - this has been going on for quite some time. I remember when I was in high school (~10 yrs ago) there were "(school district)sucks.com" sites set up which included defaced pictures of the faculty. I know I used to get the teachers angry by playing "Word 97 Pinball." Others got in trouble for hacking the school's networks, or viewing online pornography.
Perhaps these problems mean it's time to get rid of the computers and concentrate on the three R's again?
You know, even adults in high positions are just humans, and vulnerable.
Oh fuck that. I put up with and shelled out a ton of grief (I still do) in secondary school. You didn't see me hiding inside my house because assholes insisted that because I swam and shaved once a year that I was gay and that was before I was an adult... I expect that an adult be able to handle criticism, especially if it's fucking true.
Hell, just a few months ago I was tipping the scales at 260 lbs and got poked fun at by my buddies, co-workers and people who didn't know me. Did I fucking hide out in my house and cry and say, "woe is me"? No, I fucking did something about it and lost 80 lbs -- sadly now I'm thinner than those bastards who thought it was funny to poke fun and they instead tell me I'm too thin.
You can't win.
So we can have more kids with laptops, and thus more fun pranks! :)
http://digg.com/playable_web_games/New_Site_Launches_To_Help_You_Give_Free_OLPC_Laptops
Big ones, small ones, some as big as yer 'ead!
Give 'em a twist, a flick o' the wrist...
Back in early HS we had a BASIC programming class....it was the only programming class offered and was braindead easy. We've get our work done and then play Quake on the network....but caused some mischief, too.
The PCs were Win95, and one of my friends had a co-op thing where he'd be home while I was in class. I'd send him the IPs of the different workstations in the lab (come to think of it, why were they public IPs?) and he'd WinNuke them from his house. It was great watching the teacher's computer BSOD and she'd have no idea why it was doing what it was doing. As soon as she got it back up and going, it would happen again. We'd do it to some other student's PCs and they'd lose their work, too. Heh.
Also, we had Novell DOS logins to log in to. I made a BASIC program that looked similar to the login, even approximated the Novell red color. I'd load this up to run on startup, and when someone "logged in" it would display random graphics and sounds, making them think they'd broke something.
Sigh....it's sad that things like that today would probably get me expelled or worse....
I saw some of you talking about hacking teachers e-mails and so on. I work at a local school district. If the kids could get some of the teachers passwords... well lets say it will be job security for me. All the grades and attendance are done on web based programs. If a student got their teachers password they could change all the grades and attendance records. And I know some of the old school teachers may keep a hard copy of all the grades but some of the younger ones maybe not. So yeah, the whole hacking thing could be bad thing now. But at least we try to keep a couple steps ahead of them and only allow so much access under their own logins.
Disagree. Computers are just tools. Kids are doing what kids have always done. If the teachers are insufficiently robust to operate in this environment, they should be replaced.
None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
On my last day at a job, I wrote a little batch file. It would continually send a message to a username. I'd also used a spare PC, logged in as the admin test account - password for which was "test123". Resulted in the guy apparently not being able to work, because a side effect of NET SEND username is that it followed him wherever he logged on... Apparently took the IT guy nearly a whole day to sort out. :D
Back in high school, I used to ssh to my on-campus Linux box (I was running a cluster in the computer lab) and use smbclient to send those Windows popup messages; I think it's called "net send" under Windows. The best part was that you could specify who it should appear to be from, so I could send stuff as God or whoever. That's a prank. If I had used it to send a message to the teacher saying, "You have fat legs", that would be more on-par with the article.
Kids these days, I tell ya. In my day, we had to chisel the bits onto stone tablets and push them uphill both ways to the server room, and we were happy to have it!
Klingon programs don't timeshare, they battle for supremacy.
I stopped right there. Um, harassing people on a website doesn't exactly make you "tech-savvy". Also, calling teachers names, passing notes, etc, has probably gone on for centuries. This is nothing new. I didn't care for the tech-savvy label, since places like MySpace make it so easy to throw up a website even a braindead monkey could do it.
I think the teachers should up their knowledge on the subject, and confront the kids themselves. Teach them a little bit about the real world.
FLR
Its a damn good thing we didn't have the Web back when I was in school.
The things I would have had to say about Good-Old East Bridgewater High School, MA would have probably gotten me locked up!
I had the privilege to attend school taught by the most incompetent collection of Idiots, Bitches, and Assholes that ever staffed a school. There were a few rare exceptions, a couple good teachers here or there. For the most part that school owes me for wasted time attending that Jungle Gym, and the IQ points that they shaved off due to me my having to mix with those worthless assmonkeys.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
I don't care if some student calls a teacher a "fatass" on network news, and that clip becomes part of the trailer for the news for the next 50 years. It still cannot be a crime as long as the First Amendment stands. It doesn't even reach the level of defamation; it's just a juvenile insult.
At my former high school two kids found out the network admins password and were able to remotely change the homepage for every computer on the network. They changed it to *NSFW www.meatspin.com *NSFW . (The site's name explains it all... with Dead or Alive's "You Spin Me Round (Like a Record)" playing)
I think originally they were facing computer hacking charges, desiminating porn to minors, and even some sort of fraud allegations. I don't know what finally came of the legal proceedings but they did end up missing graduation and face suspensions.
Inappropriate? Yes. Criminal? I don't think so.
Here is a link to a story about it:
http://www3.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO54387/
We just wiggled the power plugs loose from the back of the Apple II power supplies. They looked plugged in, but they weren't. Cheap easy lulz.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Whatever happened to just changing the keyboard layout??
On what grounds, littering? It's legal to dislike someone. It's legal to say you dislike someone.
It's legal to make posters describing how much you dislike someone.
I was a lower class (poor) kid that went to school in a rich neighbourhood. To make matters worse, I was way ahead on the growth curve (much larger than others my age), and interested in technology and learning - not sports.
As an oversized geek I was a popular target for bullying, and was frequently involved in fights that I could find no way to avoid. And as the larger kid, I was generally assumed to be the troublemaker by the glorified nannies we call public schoolteachers.
The point being - by the end of high school I had become a recluse. The public school system had taught me that the only way to avoid being hassled was to stay the hell away from the other kids and the teachers wherever possible. The system had taught me to become an isolated introvert.
So I always laugh when I hear people talk about how public school is necessary to teach kids to socialize. I can't imagine how anyone could have done any worse for me than they did. Even if I was educated alone, I wouldn't have come out with and isolationist misanthropic personality.
Were things like: Setting their email to beep 99 times when they got a message and then sending them emails. Making their screen flash when they got an email. Making the system clock massive and saving it that way and returning it to normal so that next time they logged on they were surprised. Making a dozen clocks massive. Moving icons and folders around or nesting them all in humorously named folders. Changing the .openwin menu title to something really long so when they right clicked they got a massive window.
Of course it was UNIX but most of this could be duplicated elsewhere if you caught someone with their system unattended. Of course the best is if you've got time to do them all. They will notice the beeps and flashes and things and be sure not to leave their system unattended again so upon reboot they'll generally be mystified by the giant clocks which were not obvious before.
How does the kid learn it is a mistake if there are no consequences?
Mistake + no consequences = Got away with it- let's do it again.
I would suggest that some of the legal and administrative actions taken are a bit extreme, but at the same time I haven't been in that situation on either side.
I didn't mean to suggest that there should be no consequences.
I'm just confused by the constant overreaction.
This post shows exactly how ridiculous the teacher in the discussion is acting. Someone was able to show that they can and do overcome adversity in educational and real life settings and become better people for it.
not everything on the internet is true
Garcia, your mamma is fat. [grin]
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I dunno. I think if a teacher shows respect, they will get it in return. So if the teacher is good at, well, being a teacher, I would think that they are likely to not be slandered on the Internet or IRL.
iPrank
iBully
iTorture
iDefame
iNag
iTaunt
iFight
iBeating
iRazz
iHaze
Putting the shutdown alias in the start-up folder on those older Mac computers. That was one of our favorite things to do in our HS. Everyone knew how to take care of it, no permanent damage, but it was pretty funny.
Most of what is said is either clearly untrue (and thus parody) or true (and thus, completely fair comment). I don't think the schools have a leg to stand on for most cases. The student who said the teacher had fat legs, for example, is entirely a matter of opinion. If the teacher can prove that she does not have fat legs, then yes, it's libel. But, the onus of proof ought to be on the teacher. Of course, accusations of child molestation are libellous (if not true), and they are potentially both career-ending and devastating. However, I'm perfectly at liberty to say "Oh, I hate Joe Bloggs, he's a dickhead" if I want, and I'm allowed to put that wherever I like, because the only real statement in there asserts that Joe Bloggs is a dickhead, which is a matter of opinion (unless he has an actual penis on his head, in which case it's factually true).
Obviously, the school has to at least give these kids detention to keep order, but when it comes to chasing them down legally, I really can't see the schools winning.
I did something similar, since basic was the only language I knew at that time. It started off saying "Please enter the startup password:" There was, of course, no password. No matter what you typed it would start a sine sweep using the basic 'SOUND(x,x)' function(uses the 'beeper' in the computer - no speaker necessary), and would go for 5 minutes until going back to the password prompt. It sounded exactly like a cheesy police siren wail. I put this on several of my teachers' classroom computers in the startup items, set to go fullscreen with no window controls. The best part: It took several of them the good part of 6 hours to figure out that all you had to do to close it down was hit 'ESC', and I got to hear a nice little announcement about it the next day over the loudspeakers.
If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
Since we're all sharing...
When all we had was Dec printer terminals, I wrote a program that waited until I was long out of the computer room (about 30 minutes) and then sent a stream of form-feeds to all of the printers. Form feed shot a page of fan-fold paper out of the printer at high speed. The room filled up with curling paper and looked like someone dumped a box of detergent in all the washing machines at a laundrymat.
After we upgraded to new-fangled CRTs (keyboard and monitors to you young'ens) I wrote a program that randomly drew an asci-art horse galloping across the screen from one edge to the other in the middle of whatever the user was doing. They never did find out where it was coming from or how to stop it. I quietly disabled it when the word "expelled" started being thrown around.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
As a parent who recently bought a home deliberately OUTSIDE the Charlotte-Mecklenburg system, let me assure you, these people don't have any idea what they're doing. This school district has been in the crapper for years and years. No small part of my wife's and my decision to move OUT of Charlotte was the schools. You can check CMS's test results or you can find lots of interesting facts, not to mention things like this or this. The list goes on and on.
It's not legal to claim someone is a criminal with no evidence, then post posters describing that with falsified evidence around the town.
That is libel. And some of these kids have done essentially that.
Not a sentence!
Much like anything else, there's a line to be drawn. If someone is harmed or put at risk, then the perpetrators should be punished. If someone's feelings are hurt or they feel embarrassed, they need to get over it.
I think you've got it wrong. It will always be appropriate for one to react when a trusted, important information source distributes incorrect information about you.
... going somewhat offtopic ...
The realization that people need to make is that the internet should not be considered a trusted information source. Err, wait - places like facebook can't be trusted. Places like NY Times or CNN can. Or at least they can be trusted as much as one might trust US Media. Then there is Wikipedia, which maybe you can trust and maybe not. It's not hard to see that non-technical people wouldn't have a nuanced understanding of information validity on the internet.
I think an interesting mod to our language (if such a thing were possible) would be to institute a set of tenses or conjugations or somesuch for every statement. They would indicate -
'I have verified that this is true'
'A trusted source believes this is true'
'This is logically true or likely'
'I am skeptical of this information'
'This information is of unknown quality'
Perhaps this group of indications would need to be somewhat different than what I suggest here, but I think that attaching a rough "and here's how sure I am" to every statement of fact would have an interesting and productive effect on both communication and thought.
Outright lies would continue of course.
-- "Oh. This guy again."
When I was in high school a few years back someone thought that it would be funny to make a bomb threat with a globally broadcast "net send" command. The school was evacuated and the police called to try to figure out who done it. Everyone knew what room it came from, but the computers were all ghosted to be exactly the same and were running deepfreeze (reloads from the image upon every boot). A bunch of the computers were reset just after the message was sent, so the police just interrogated random students until one admitted to knowing -how- to send such a message. The school was searched with dogs, the student expelled (though during the search they kept the school's network administrator, a few police, and a couple of students, myself included, inside the building to try to figure out which computer sent it).
Might as well as throw all the under 20 year olds in prison. I mean really, instead of prosecuting children ("Won't someone think of the children" :) ) why don't they start holding the parents responsible.
"The Brady Bunch is back...working homicide"
Neither of my parents have a degree. My mom had to quit college just short of graduation for circumstances beyond her control, and my dad barely made it out of high school. However, growing up, they both instilled in me a priority for education. Not just education for its own sake, but rather, a priority on learning. My father was stuck in a job that he couldn't stand because it payed enough to provide for a family and it was probably the best he could do without a degree. He always told me not to end up like him, and he's done everything that he can (and more in some cases!) to ensure that I get my degree and have a skill on top of that. So, I'm in college and have an internship.
I know other people whose parents didn't force this issue, and they're mostly just working a job or getting a degree 'because it's the Thing To Do'. Of these people, generally speaking, the ones who went in to the military (more specifically the air force) and learned a trade skill seem to be the best positioned and equipped for life. The people who went on to just learn a trade skill without the discipline of being in the military are still doing alright as they've at least got a skill set at the end of the day. Everyone going to school (my 'group' is just starting to finish undergrad) without a passion for learning has accrued debt, little to no real skill that experience brings, and a sudden sobering sense of reality. They need to get off the treadmill, and don't know how. They are probably at the highest risk for falling in to deep(er) debt and not getting out of the situation. Especially with a mortgage and maybe a family in the somewhat near future.
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
Exactly. TFA says that teachers are not generally considered to be "public persons" therefore libel cannot be used to prosecute the pranksters. However, aren't laws like slander, defamation of character and the various hate crime laws already sufficient to prosecute the kids that are truly stepping over the line? If they are, then what difference does it make if it is done on-line or off? If not, then perhaps what the kids are doing isn't truly evil enough to prosecute, no? I don't get why the fact that it's being done on-line makes any difference at all.
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
The prime rule of pranking is don't do anything you wouldn't be able to fix or pay for yourself.
For example, back in the day some friends pranked a three ton statue of Rice University's Founder, and turned it around 180 degrees in the middle of the night without anyone noticing, getting squashed, or breaking it. No one was indicted, but some big checks were written!
You slander somebody on the internet, and that is real criminal behavior. You're going to be talking to a judge.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Those aren't pranks. Pranks are netsending your teacher in the middle of class to report to the office. These are just idiots with internet. It's cyber-name-calling
"Teach a man to build a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life."
Wow. Somebody extracted pretty much what I wanted to say in my obscure post. On slashdot. :-).
:-)
And people modded him up. I'm floored
Thanks for clarifying my post.
And my wife (teacher) pretty much agrees with your wife. The stories she comes back with from school really make me feel OK for saying "no" to my kids.
JP http://www.wearerite.com
Even libel is only rarely a criminal offense. And some of the things, like making fun of a teacher's "fat legs", aren't even libel. Juvenile namecalling isn't libel.
If they haven't redirected the school's DNS to their own servers, they aren't pranking hard enough.
THAT's when it gets interesting.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Absolutely, but that was the least meritful example in the article. Page two has some much better instances, where it isn't so ridiculous to bring in some sort of legal authority. Part of the issue is that half-baked accusations of matters as serious as pedophilic teachers weren't as popular back when you were face to face with your friends as they are now that you have semi-anonymity and an audiance who may or may not understand it's a fabrication. That is to say, the subjects that kids talk about when making fun of teachers are sometimes different online than in person.
> "A teacher claiming she can't work because she got made fun of is like a firefighter complaining he can't work because fires are hot."
Absolutely. The case would have to be extraordinarily fucking cruel in order to warrant any claim of actual emotional harm.
"Fire INDEED hot!"
Evidently, the key to understanding recursion is to begin by understanding recursion. The rest is easy.
I'm a little confused - what are your wife's elementary students doing that is so reprehensible yet inactionable? You make it sound like it's a war against the entire generation.
Evidently, the key to understanding recursion is to begin by understanding recursion. The rest is easy.
It's b/c you only hear about the overreactions. You don't hear about the 4 million times/day a teacher is harassed to some degree by a student and just moves on with his/her life.
...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
I have said many times on slashdot that school is in fact a prison. The inmates generally despise the jailers and unless you wish to spiral off into an alcohol induced early retirement a sustained level of pranking is all that will keep you going.
A long time ago in a galaxy far away, I always used to dress completely in black for the first day of term - suit, tie, shirt the lot - Gothed up to the max. I wore those pinz-nez glasses on a chord around my neck so that when I addressed a student, I had to peer over the top of them. Scared the living daylights out of the little darlings.
There were five IMacs in my tutorial room and each one had the clock set 3 minutes ahead of its neighbour. The macs pipped, pinged and giggled on the hour, on the half hour and on the quarter hour. Drove some students mad but drove my boss madder. Students of course cannot work Imacs and were unable to retaliate even when I sent them (for stats practical) to determine the total consumption of potatoes and KFC (popular foods in that part of Scotland!) amongst their fellow students.
I told them that the air conditioning system on the roof was a penthouse apartment, that another male lecturer, who dyed his hair and moustache(?) a charming shade of mahogany, had an unusual genetic condition and that was his natural colour.
When students asked me where I had acquired all my computing skills I told them I learned them in Bar-L (The Scottish High Security Prison). When they asked me for an idea for the cover of the college magazine I suggested a crop circle in the shape of the college logo set in a potato field. When they were stumped for a design for the same magazine, I had them lay it out like one of those airline mags, although, rather disturbingly, this was regarded as award winning work.
When my departmental head suggested the college have a top 100 books online poll, I had my students rig it so that Larry Niven's Ringworld was number one and Jane Eyre (her choice) was last! They also added 80 other hilarious titles. My head of department avoided contact with students at all costs and conducted most of her business via email. This was in the days before account verification so I regularly signed her up for every newsletter that had even the slightest connection with our faculty subjects. She was under the delusion that these internet sites had sought her out because she was so important a figure in the world of education...
My college circulated a monthly staff suggestions form (probably to comply with some iso 9001 crap). I regularly suggested painting our corridors light pink to calm down difficult students. When I missed my flu jab I jokingly suggested that they implement a college wide vaccination program. Not only did they take up the idea, they awarded me 100 pounds for making such a practical suggestion.
All of this pales into insignificance when I think that I could have sold the damn place on Ebay!
Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
And? Why do you think the fact that someone gives a teacher money entitles students to be disrespectful toward them? I can't think of a single situation where being an asshole toward someone is justified because the other person is getting paid.
And part of being a good person is not intentionally making other people's lives more difficult. Also, your reply doesn't address the point, which is, if you don't like how your class is taught, why aren't you doing more than just disrupting it?
Ultimately, your argument boils down to "we're paying you so put up with it" to which I would reply, no. No one should have to forgo their dignity to teach.
You are making the same arguments so many other students tried in school, the difference being the rest of us grew up and learned why they were ridiculous.
I'm sorry, you're saying that talking over someone when they've respectfully asked you not to is... childish?
Thank you for validating everything I said.
I followed your link, and it really does say that reporting a real bomb on the school grounds is a punishable offense. No hyperbole, no exaggeration, no twisting to mean something that it doesn't. The fact that they specifically distinguish between a false report, and real reports means that this isn't can't be chalked up to bad wording.
He suspended Sean for 3 or 5 days for this out of school defamination, and Sean's family took the school to court. I don't remember much about the whole thing, but I *do* remember Sean eventually won and the school had to back down, it's amusing to me that 12 years later the rest of the nation is still dealing with the same problems. I wonder how long till this gets escalated up to the federal level, if ever? Freedom of speech on the internet is a big deal, do they infringe on the rights of others? I mean, it *is* a public domain...
Posting with out proof reading since 2001.
children are doing a lot of this on their personal computers at home, and yet the teachers have to deal with it in the classroom.
also, i learned to program in high school, and i am now a successful programmer. i would have been at a disadvantage in my field if i had not started in high school.
If it were a matter of simply stating their dislike, it'd be OK. The problem is when people start making up nasty rumours and untrue allegations about the teacher. I imagine this happens far more frequently.
Even libel is only rarely a criminal offense. And some of the things, like making fun of a teacher's "fat legs", aren't even libel. Juvenile namecalling isn't libel.
You're right. No need to make a criminal case out of it. Just make them post an apology, give them a couple of swats with a paddle, and let it go. That's just what they would have done if we had made fun of the teacher before the internet.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Can't speak for david, but the stories I have are in this vein: parent comes with child to teacher-parent conference upset at the teacher that child did not get a good grade. Teacher looks at child and says "did you do the assignments?" Child answers "no". Teacher tells parent "that's why he got a bad grade."
So, the question is, how much bull do you think this kid can get past his parents if one single question from the teacher can shed light on why he got a bad grade ? How much credibility does the teacher have in that household ?
Or the student who called a teacher a bitch in class. When the parent was called for a conference, her response was "do you have audio-tape proof ?"
I'm certainly not saying all parents are like this. Not even 15%. But if three or four students in a classroom disrupt, the whole class is in trouble. Computers start to crash. Equipment disappears. All sorts of stuff like that.
JP http://www.wearerite.com
Oh I have a few pranks I've pulled I'll share...
1. Real quick one (works in any version of Windows)
Disable the screensaver, then open a command prompt. Type "PROMPT Error 144 - System Failure, System Halted" and press 'enter', CLS 'enter'. Press ALT+ENTER (for full-screen) and walk away.
2. This one worked in Win95/Win98/WinME:
Download REBOOT.COM. Rename it to MOUSE.COM. Put in AUTOEXEC.BAT. Hours of fun. (They almost NEVER figured that one out.)
3. Challenge someone to fix this problem: Drag your Windows folder into another folder and shut off the machine. (Yes, it can be fixed, but not by any way you're thinking of. And XCOPY and MOVE aren't the answer.)
4. In a lab one time, I swapped all the neighbors mouses and keyboards with each other (leaving them plugged in to the correct machines). Worked better than I expected.
5. If your friend has a computer with a bootable floppy drive, download the Win 3.1 that fits on a floppy disk and leave it in the A: drive. (You could probably adapt it easily for a bootable CD.) The look on their face when they discover they now have Windows 3.1 is priceless (only temporary, of course).
6. My crowning achievement was when I was in college ca. 1994; the computer lab had the old 486s with the Novell application launcher, I suppose so they could manage licenses better. Well, one day I found that they had left the temporary shares open to the entire 2GB (instead of the 10MB they should have). So, I set to work in VBASIC carefully re-creating the colorful menu. Every detail down to the exact spec was duplicated. You couldn't tell my version apart from the real one.
Except mine had a couple of nasty habits: 1. no matter what application you would pick (usually WordPerfect 5.1), it would prompt you to put in your floppy disk and press ENTER. Then, I would write a byte, delete the byte, write a byte, delete a byte -- just to make the drive light come on... and then display on the screen: "Formatting disk... 14%... 36%... 63%...87%... FINISHED!" And then leave you back at the menu. Right around term paper time, the looks on peoples faces was priceless.
2. When the machine was idle, it just continually saved 32KB chunks to the share with random file names. Get about 10 of these going and I had brought the application server to a SCREECHING HALT. You couldn't start apps. You couldn't exit them. 300 people were dead in the water.
Toward the end of the hour I had them digging in the floors looking for cabling problems. Inadvertently, they shut off power to an entire wing, pulled the cable up, said "ah... it was missing a terminator" and turned everything back on. Funny how it works now.
Now I should point out... I have said all that to say this: I don't pull pranks like this anymore (unless it's someone who really deserves it). The reason is that now that I'm older and wiser, I realize it's hard enough to keep computers running as it is. No honor in abusing the weak.
"They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
My school had a very clear discipline policy:
1) Break a rule (the rules were clearly spelled out in a handbook including disrespecting a teacher/staff member in any way) - 1 detention
2) 5 dententions == 3 day suspension (zeros on all homework/tests, no participation in school events)
3) 10 detentions == 10 day suspension (same rules as above)
4) 11 or more detentions == recommended expulsion
We had relatively few discipline problems that went beyond #2
No. Having someone insult you to your face in front of 30 other people that you are forced to interact with by FORCE OF LAW, and that group in turn is contained in a rather small community that also is required to exist under FORCE OF LAW, is far worse than any number of people that you are not required to interact with under force of law. Throughout history, shunning by a community has been used as a very effective form of punishment. This was particularly common in communities that were isolated, as it became a very big problem for someone when they are being shunned, and there is no where else to go. In this day and age, most people don't understand this because we live in a mobile society with access to so many people that an organized shunning is virtually impossible. Heck, even in relatively small towns, it is not uncommon for there to be people you don't even know if your town isn't isolated by large distances from other population centers. Schools are one of the few places that shunning still carries force. Unfortunately most people don't understand it, because they don't consider students to be real people, and they don't consider school to be the real world.
Can you imagine living in a town of 5000 people, having someone of clout out to destroy your reputation, and to top it off, having an armed force of unstoppable magnitude waiting in the wings to use force to prevent you from leaving the town? That is what students deal with when face to face insults are thrown in a school. Under those circumstance, you wouldn't give a crap about a million people outside of your town hearing the insults. It is only your militarily forced community that will matter.
Once you hit about 18 to 21 in most places you're expected to quickly become self-sufficient. It's no longer an option to play and let others take care of you. Only in those early years do you have the opportunity to just enjoy life without participating in the struggle. I'm not saying kids shouldn't learn advanced skills or take on a part time job, but it should be for enjoyment, not so they can become adults prematurely. Don't put the burden of being self-sufficient on children.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.
People are always going to criticize and parody people in authority, and they should know how to take it. The teachers should learn to rise above it, and the same goes for various world leaders.
You feel sleepy. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
My wife is a casual primary school teacher. She doesn't dress provocatively but she is a little overweight (mostly weight she put on a few years ago when she got quite ill for a few months). She gets called everything from fat cow to dumb slut by children under 12.
It would be nice if the kids at the schools she teaches at were kept in better check (especially when they get physical - she's pregnant and got shoved in the stomach about 2 weeks ago and while the child was spoken to they continued to make excuses and justify their behaviour). However she does work with troubled children and problem classes, so she knows it comes with the territory. Do I like that my wife cops abuse? Hell no. Do I want her to turn around and prosecute a child that abuses her? Hell no. I'd be asking her to change jobs if she couldn't handle it. I can imagine on a bad day such abuse would take its toll.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
I did the password thing on old Novell systems, wrote a fake login screen, sent the user data
to the printer at the end of the row of PC's, It would say USERNAME , please change your password,
PASSWORD is not strong enough and is easily guessed.
For real fun, we wrote Program Header files using high ascii, which when sent to the printer,
would 'sing' on the old dot matrix printers. Amazing noised came from the printers each time we printed
our source code out. One student actually got the printer to play 'shave and a haircut'. It was funny.
Basically I passed all my classes, but the fun was gone as newer technology was adopted. Laser printers
killed the music.
I do so like the golden rule, as a teacher. :-)
I don't post anything about students on the internet...
BUT
It might be a deterrent to some students if the perpetrator had something negative about THEM posted on the internet... I'd suggest as punishment that the role be reversed. I.e. if a student says a teacher and/or other student has fat legs and posts a photo, etc., then I'd suggest a photo of the perpetrator student be posted on the net with a similar derogatory comment about some part of their anatomy...I have a feeling we would see a very sudden decline in this sort of behaviour if that were to happen...:-)
It's funny. When I first heard a home school advocate telling me how the public school system was really just a front to push through social programs, and it really wasn't about real education, I assumed that she was a loon. Since then, every single person I have heard argue against homeschooling has fallen back to the same argument that the home shooling "loon" game. Public school is a social program.
Your collage statement is made entirely out of ignorance. Home schooled kids can easily get into college. A frequent path is to start taking courses in a Jr. College when their public school counterparts would still in high school. By the time you have 2 years of junior college under your belt, you can start applying at regular colleges, as they will be more interested in you college career than where you went to high school.
Of course saying that you have a college degree doesn't necessarily mean much anymore, as I regularly meet people who have degrees, yet are surprisingly ignorant in what they studied. For the most part, until they get a masters, their degree doesn't say much more about them than a High School diploma.
As for the 'grow and develop with guidance' comment... I have yet to meet a parent that actually knows what is going on in their children's classroom. There is not 'guidance' there. What happens in the public schools is that parents surrender custody of their children to a state run orphanage. Many kids, (I don't have numbers, but I would guess that it is greater than 70%) are in the care of 'the system' for more waking hours than they are in the care of their actual parents. So, you have to consider who's guidance they are being given.
My wife's a casual primary school teacher and I think teaching has gone off the rails. I know what you mean about "lord of the flies". My wife is 4 months pregnant and the other week she got shoved in the stomach by a child. His response when told he can't do that: "Well someone did that to mummy when I was in her tummy!". I doubt the parent was even informed, and if they were they probably didn't care.
What is there to do when the kids keep upping the ante and there's no recourse on the school ground? Hit 'em were it hurts. Maybe if parents have to pay for a lawyer for mommy's little bastard's behavior, some parents will start, you know, parenting...
Have you met the parents? That just won't work. Where do you think the kids get their attitude in the first place?
The only solution is to give the teachers back the authority and the trust we once had in them...perhaps with more oversight.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
I applaud your penchant for mischief and your anecdotal prose. To hear such a juvenile prank story told with such eloquence borders on a work of art. In particular the "squee" had me laughing embarassingly loudly at my desk. Well done, sir.
parent comes with child to teacher-parent conference upset at the teacher that child did not get a good grade. Teacher looks at child and says "did you do the assignments?" Child answers "no". Teacher tells parent "that's why he got a bad grade."
I fail to see what the problem is here. Child tells parent that he got a bad grade because teacher doesn't like him / teacher sucks / whatever. Parent confronts teacher about it. Teacher gets child to tell the truth (although there may or may not be more to it. The child could be just lazy, but it's possible the child didn't do the work because the teacher did suck, and the child was frustrated because he couldn't understand the material. For the sake of limiting the variables, I'm going to assume the child is just lazy). What the hell is abnormal about this scenario?
So, the question is, how much bull do you think this kid can get past his parents if one single question from the teacher can shed light on why he got a bad grade ?
I don't know. How old is this child? If we're talking about a 7 year old, why didn't the teacher send a note home to be signed by the parents telling them that the kid wasn't doing his assignments, before it got to the point of bad grades? What exactly did the child tell the parents about the grades? Again, for the sake of simplifying the argument, I'm going to assume notes were sent and forged signed notes returned. Teacher is not to blame, and parents will find out.
If we're talking about a teenager, you have a point. Even if the teacher sucks, by that age a child should be able to learn by reading the textbook, and any parent who blames the teacher for bad grades can be thoroughly and safely ignored. Heck, at that age, I don't know why parents would even bother to talk to teachers unless they were called in about some problem. Back when I was in school, my parents made my allowance conditional on good grades, and you can bet that worked. They held me responsible for how well I was doing, not the teachers.
How much credibility does the teacher have in that household ?
After that conference, where the teacher clearly explained why the child wasn't succeeding in the class, quite a lot. Did you expect a teacher that the parents have never before met to have some sort of credibility? Based on what, the title of "teacher"?
Or the student who called a teacher a bitch in class. When the parent was called for a conference, her response was "do you have audio-tape proof ?"
It sucks that we live in a world where people don't respect one another. However, if a teacher has constant problems being disrespected like that, instead of being offended about the request for proof, she should take that as good advice, and start recording her lectures. Back when I was in first grade, I had a teacher outright lie to my mother about something that I supposedly did. I assume (now) that she didn't have something against me and somehow got me confused with another child or something, but it still put me in a defensive situation with my parents even though I had done nothing wrong. So you'll forgive me if I think requesting proof isn't altogether a ridiculous idea.
I'm certainly not saying all parents are like this. Not even 15%. But if three or four students in a classroom disrupt, the whole class is in trouble. Computers start to crash. Equipment disappears. All sorts of stuff like that.
Look, being a teacher is hard. And even though I've had craptastic teachers in my day, I've also had some awesome ones. The ones who were great were still disrespected by children who really were a problem, so I do see where you're coming from. Sometimes parents really do have a freaking problem with saying no a child and they raise spoiled brats. I see from another post that you're married to a teacher, and she might be one of those great teachers like the ones I re
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
I'm surprised I haven't seen this one yet (am I that creative or is it too low-tech for the /. crowd?). When I was is HS, we ran on the lobotomized Win98 systems they'd set up so you couldn't (in theory) mess with them. When my "computer applications" teacher stepped out, I jumped on his comp, screenshotted the desktop, moved all the icons off to the side and dropped the start bar out of sight. After about 20 minutes of clicking on everything and nothing happening, he restarted to the same effect. He started to lose it after a while, pretty much killing my desire to crow triumphantly that I had duped him. Finally they re-imaged his comp, and no-one was the wiser.
People are like slinkies; useless but fun to watch when you push them down the stairs
"I am saying that making a post to slashdot from the back of a classroom while someone is talking in the front is not a personal insult"
And you're wrong. Please figure out what is wrong with your thought process that causes you to think that you can tell me when you have insulted me.
"and to take it as such is childish"
Oh, I get it, you don't have an argument, you just want to call names.
Bye.
I never bothered with this type of prank - the non-technical prank is far more satisfying. Top of my list was nailing a fish to the underside of a lecturer's desk. Funnily enough, fish does rot at the head....
I don't think that's the motivation behind hate crime laws. IIRC, the argument is that a crime that's targets at a member of a minority because of their ethnic or religious affiliation has a chilling effect on that community. E.g., if somebody beats up somebody's who's Jewish, and a reasonable person would conclude that the victim's being Jewish was a motive for the beating, then this makes other potential victims feel unsafe, and less willing to participate in the broader community.
Remember that, historically, racist violence against blacks in the American south had as, one of its aims, to intimidate African Americans into acquiescing to second-class citizen status, by making them too scared to do things like, for example, vote.
Are you adequate?
I've seen a kid that had gone completely feral, hyperactive, disruptive and assaultive. The only way to maintain any control was through physical restraint and intimidation bordering on criminal child abuse. My sister-in law taught that little angel, and I know his Grandparents, who were saddled with rising the kid until he was old enough that his behavior got him incarcerated in prison, all three are eligible for sainthood in my book. Kids sexually assaulting and or harassing their teachers and peers isn't unheard of in elementary school.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Ok, I will admit the "Do you have audio-tape proof" line is absurdly demeaning to this entire aspect of society. It's rather sick that a parent would take such a hostile attitude towards a teacher (unless there's some sort of ongoing dispute to put the hostility in context).
Evidently, the key to understanding recursion is to begin by understanding recursion. The rest is easy.
A couple things you said bugged me but this sums it up:
> "The problem is that I absolutely assure you that not every teacher is a good one, and they don't all deserve to have their words taken over the child's word just because they're the teacher."
That may be true on an individual basis, but without knowing anything specific about a teacher aside from the fact that they have that title, they do deserve a presumption of trustworthiness (over the child), especially if we're talking about elementary school years. While this may be a naive assumption (though I would argue it's a decent approximation), it is necessary for the system to have any worth - how can a classroom function at all without parental support?
Evidently, the key to understanding recursion is to begin by understanding recursion. The rest is easy.
"he's just validified"
BWAHAHAHAAHAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA.
God it's funny to watch people make idiots of themselves. Maybe if you'd been paying attention in school and not coming up with stupid easily defeated arguments you'd know that isn't even close to a real word.
We're fucked if morons like you are the future...
You just got "ownified"
BWAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAH
As a foster parent, I've had some really badly behaved kids come to stay with us. Do I blame their birth parents for teaching/allowing such behavior? Yes. Do I use that as an excuse to allow them to continue behaving badly under my care? No. This increasingly popular notion that we should wait for other people to fix our problems annoys me to no end.
If it's a problem for the teacher, the teacher should deal with it. I don't buy the idea that there's nothing the teacher can do because it is constitutionally protected speech. That may limit the options, but it doesn't eliminate all of them.
My personal child discipline method consists of two steps: find the underlying cause of the behavior, and find the right incentive to match. In this type of case, the underlying cause is probably covering for their own poor academic performance, or trying to boost their popularity among other poor performers.
In the first case, I would offer a way to help them catch up, such as a redo of a dismal homework assignment. In the second case, I would threaten to embarrass them in class. That embarrassment would probably take the form of informing the class that people tease those they love, so I'm hanging this printout of a myspace page with a heart around it, because the student must really love me to tease me this much. I say the best way to fight bad free speech is with some more free speech.
I'd feel compelled to inform the parents in any case, but I would offer to make that easier if they were cooperative, and would give the kid a chance to fix it first.
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Well, from your comment I think that some of the things I was trying to say were misunderstood. I don't expect parents to get into a confrontation with the teacher because and claim they don't believe her. Nor do I expect parents to ignore teachers, I understand children will lie to their parents. I'm just saying that they can't be assumed to be lying without a pattern of bad behavior. And even if the child is a perfect angel when he's near you, I don't expect parents to attack a teacher in defense of the child either. I expect them to listen, thank the teacher for telling them about it, and then later to have a serious private talk with the child and try to get the details. Talk to the other teachers, see if there's a universal problem or if it's just that one class. If multiple teachers start telling you the same type of stories, odds are that something is going on, and it's time to take further action. That's the sane way of going about things like that.
My particular beef with the parent's post was that I saw nothing wrong with original example. A child is getting bad grades, the parents don't get a straight answer out of the child, they ask the teacher. The teacher answers. What exactly was the unacceptable behavior there? The calling the teacher a bitch thing is a bit more complicated problem, and I probably wouldn't start demanding the teacher produce an audio tape unless she started escalating the problem herself, but I just don't see it as completely unreasonable (in a situation where she's asking for a suspension or other drastic punishment) to ask for proof.
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
Actually it is, because when you are raping someone because they represent something you hate, then you are also giving out an threat to every one who belongs to that comunity. Since you tell the people that think like you that someone is lesser worth and should be raped, I think you are guilty of speading propaganda.
I don't think you have come along way, if it still happens, if the attitude remains you still have a big problem. So don't go belittling it.
TFA leaves out a lot of pertinent information. The "fat legs" and "Teacher Sux" case in Pennsylvania, was MUCH more than that.
In an article that I found searching for "teacher sux" case, I discovered:
http://www.nea.org/neatoday/0101/rights.html [nea.org]
where it stated more facts about that particular case:
Therefore, in that particular case, of COURSE she was afraid to leave her house. Her life was threatened. I wonder if the person who wrote this particular article was a student who had no respect for his teachers, because he certainly didn't learn how to do his research and tell the WHOLE story.
Remember when Windows were washed, mice were trapped and UNIX guarded the harem?
TFA leaves out a lot of pertinent information. The "fat legs" and "Teacher Sux" case in Pennsylvania, was MUCH more than that.
In an article that I found searching for "teacher sux" case, I discovered:
http://www.nea.org/neatoday/0101/rights.html
where it stated more facts about that particular case:
Web page titled "Teacher Sux." There he posted a vicious attack on his math teacher, Kathleen Fulmer, and principal, Thomas Kartsotis.
For starters, the student created a picture of Fulmer with her head cut off and blood pouring from her neck.
Accompanying the illustration was the question, "Why Should She Die?" under which he wrote, "Take a look at the diagram and the reasons I give, then give me $20.00 to help pay for the hitman."
The site was rife with profanity, displayed a photograph of Fulmer morphing into Hitler, and showed a likeness of Kartsotis being hit by a cartoon bullet.
Word spread, and 234 visitors viewed the site. The Web page shook up the entire school community, particularly Fulmer. The threats caused her serious health problems that ultimately led to her retirement after a 26-year career.
Of course this teacher felt unable "to go out of the house and mingle with crowds." This was basically a threat on her life! Why wasn't this mentioned in the story.. that's what I'd like to know..
I wonder if the person who wrote this particular article was a student who had no respect for his teachers, because he certainly didn't learn how to do his research and tell the whole story. Unless, of course, he did this maliciously.
Kris
Remember when Windows were washed, mice were trapped and UNIX guarded the harem?
Uhm, what? Any child talking back to a teacher in my children's school is given a warning and usually has recess yanked. Twice in the same day has their parents talked to. Twice in the same week will end them up in the pricipal's office. Too many of these and you're on suspension. Disrupting class too many times like this (too many suspensions), and you're out of the district, and this is public school.
Sounds to me like the teachers need to stand up and fill the pricipal's office up if need be.
As a kid I once got really irritated at my dad for forbidding me to print stuff out (he thought I was wasting too much paper printing out fractal images I'd generated with my own program). Since he was one of the parent-governors of the school I went to and often had to edit the meeting minutes which contained the head teacher's name. So I hacked the printer driver to detect every time the head's name was printed (it was an old dot-matrix printer) and add the text '(old fart)' after it. Because that text did not appear on the screen, my dad could not figure where the addition was coming from - indeed he thought he had accidentally written it himself without thinking - although he pretty quickly figured out who was actually responsible! Once my dad stopped laughing I got my printing privileges back: as he put it, he'd rather have me 'wasting my time' calculating Mandelbrot sets than figuring out new mischief!
Is this the same Slashdot that had such an outpouring of understanding and sympathy for the bullied after Littleton school shootings? Bullying is still bullying. I am not a huge fan of government schools, but the environment in which young adults and teachers operate in does not exist in a bubble outside of society. They must follow rules and learn to be decent human beings in this environment. Castigating, abusing and virtually bullying a teacher is simply not something you would ever get away with outside of high school. If I made videos of my boss or made fun of my clients I would not have a job. Society as a whole should reject this bullying at all levels. Its just wrong and should be stamped out. I refuse to accept it as an understood and accepted fact of life for any human being. Its just not right.
This was 15 year old, my wife was the teacher. The teacher didn't get the child to tell the truth: he asked a simple question that the parent should have asked.
For the record, the child isn't lazy. He's disorganized, and somewhat aloof. After that conference, where the teacher clearly explained why the child wasn't succeeding in the class, quite a lot. Agreed. But not all parents got to the conferences. A lot of the underperforming kids parents' skip them unless called by the principal, or threatened with suspension. Based on what, the title of "teacher"? Actually, they should. The kid is more likely fib about his performance than the teacher. Teachers, in my experience on both sides of the issue (my wife and half my friends are high school teachers), don't really discriminate. However, if a teacher has constant problems being disrespected like that... Actually, it's generally from the same parents. And no level of proof would satisfy them. If you brought in the audio tape, something else would be at issue. The problem is that I absolutely assure you that not every teacher is a good one Again, agreed. Been there, done that. This said, of the 30 or so high school teachers I had, three of them were bad.
We agree on a lot of stuff, I think. I don't know if you are a parent or not, but kids are manipulation machines. My daughters, who I love both to the ends of the earth, are especially adept at trying to change reality with either charm, rage, or calls to social justice. Essentially, it's all about self-interest. Which is the reason I tend to believe their teachers.
JP http://www.wearerite.com
You'd be surprised about the reasons that may bring this up: sometimes, the single mother has a problem child that she doesn't want suspended because that may mean she will miss work, but she can't.
And, you know, it's your kid: parents think that his or her school problems reflect on the parenting, failing to realize that cooperation (as in working together) with the school is a large part of parenting.
JP http://www.wearerite.com
In my house, if my kid comes home with a bad grade, the discussion instantly goes to the realm of show me your homework and exams. If the paper was unfairly graded, in my opinion, I will have a discussion with the teacher.
Fair enough, although some teachers keep exams and you have no way of knowing if the bundle of homework papers your child handed over were all of the assignments. I also think, I misunderstood the scenario. I assumed this was a civil discussion of a parent asking the teacher, "Bobby isn't doing well in your class. Why is that, and what can he do to improve?" type thing as opposed to, "why are you failing Bobby? He's a genius!" thing.
This was 15 year old, my wife was the teacher. The teacher didn't get the child to tell the truth: he asked a simple question that the parent should have asked.
See, to me that changes everything. When a 15-year-old gets bad grades, it's his fault. By that point, some material is bound to be challenging, and he's not guaranteed to be able to absorb everything in lectures. He should know to do his assignments, he should know to search for extra tutoring if he can't do his assignments because he doesn't understand them.
Actually, they should. The kid is more likely fib about his performance than the teacher. Teachers, in my experience on both sides of the issue (my wife and half my friends are high school teachers), don't really discriminate.
Depends on what we're talking about here. I don't think there are many teachers who are purposefully discriminatory, but we all have biases. As someone who has taught a semester course in college as a TA, I can tell you that I instantly started to "like" more the students who were doing better or who appeared to be working harder. I did everything I could to make sure that didn't affect anyone positively or negatively (I wouldn't look at the names on the papers when grading to make sure I wouldn't be more lenient on people that I subconsciously assumed tried harder. I'd also take breaks from grading when I started getting frustrated when noticed some people weren't getting concepts they really should already have been intimately familiar with before being in my class. At the end of it all, I'd compare random samples of papers to see if I were taking off points consistently for similar mistakes).
Now, somebody else replied to my post, and I realized from his response that I sound like I'm supporting confronting teachers over grades and/or ignoring what they say in favor of whatever your child is telling you. I didn't mean to convey that impression. I just think parents need to look at both sides of the story. They listen to the teacher, and then they talk to the child. "She said you're not doing your homework. Why is that?" or "she says you're behaving rudely against her, what's your side of this?" Obviously, "she hates me" wouldn't be an acceptable answer, and "she's wrong, I never did anything" doesn't work for repeated offenses, but I think some communication is necessary.
Actually, it's generally from the same parents. And no level of proof would satisfy them. If you brought in the audio tape, something else would be at issue.
Yeah, after arguing about the existence of bad teachers, I'm not about to argue that there are no bad parents. In fact, between the ones that just expect the teacher to raise the child for them, the ones who really aren't interested at all, and those that won't try to listen to the child's side of the story, I think there's a shortage of good parents out there.
Again, agreed. Been there, done that. This said, of the 30 or so high school teachers I had, three of them were bad.
Sounds like about the right percentage for high school, but when I go back further it's a different story. I had some really bad elementary school teachers. Granted, they don't earn enough to put up with the crap they have t
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
"Now, wait a minute. You are complaining because I called your comment "childish" after you made the following comment to the original poster"
No actually, I'm not complaining about that at all. I never did, actually. Learn to read.
"That leads to a new insult backed by evidence. You are a hypocrite."
And that leads to more proof you're opinion isn't worth a damn. Learn to read so you know why you're wrong.
"Trying to take the high ground because someone calls you on your temper tantrum just doesn't carry any weight. "
This isn't even coherent, and certainly can't have anything to do with me. There's no "temper tantrum" anywhere to be found in my posts. Learn to read.
"The student was right, and you are self import hypocrite who has poor reading skills."
Well, seeing as we're this far in and you can't even accurately recount my argument, I'd say this is a "pot, kettle, black" situation. Funny that you misread my posts and ell me I have poor reading skills. Hell guy, most of your posts are even coherent English and you're calling ME out? Yeah buddy...
You've been wrong about what my poitn was since you took it upon yourself to reply to me.
Do you get that? Do you understand? You misread my post and have been arguing against points I never made and don't care about. Despite the fact that I've explained this to you, you continue.
You were wrong about what you thought I claimed, and are too ignorant and immature to correct your misunderstandings.
Get yourself some hooked on phonics and get back to me. And maybe take a composition class, your English sucks, which might be why you're jumping to so many ignorant, wrong, ridiculous conclusions.
"Hell guy, most of your posts are even coherent English and you're calling ME out?"
That does sum up your posts nicely, I'm glad you agree with me.
Of course, you avoid admitting that you misread my posts and so were totally wrong with everything you typed, but we'll just assume you meant to admit that too.
At least you admitted you are incoherent, that was somewhat unexpected considering your previous posts. I fully expected you to ignore what was written and post a reply that was both unintelligible and elementary in its construction. Like all your other posts have been.
Nice to see you improved yourself because of my intervention, you're welcome.
I think the hot for teacher stunt was pretty funny. I always appreciate a good remix of an old Van Halen video.
"Politicians always tell the truth, when they're calling each other liars."
Well I'm late on replying to, but as I work for a school I'll make a comment on the audio tape thing:
Depending on state and local rules on the recording of voices this may be impossible to do. In my state (PA), it would require permission to record in writing from every parent of every kid in the class to record that conversation as well as permission from the Principal, CAO (Chief Academic Officer), and/or superintendent for the school district. I can tell you know it would take months to get that permission.
My school has video cameras it can't legally run, because no one looked into the issues well enough before they installed them a few years back. It is a quite literal pain in the ass to try to get recordings of video or audio of anything happening in our school. Kids with foster homes and or kids actually from orphanages are the worst. Those are impossible to record legally in my state, any time they do get recorded or photographed by accident we are required to immediately delete those recordings and/or destroy the disk/tapes/media.
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise