Whatever Kubuntu is, they should replace the default KDE packages with it,
They did. In Hoary (which I'm running), KDE is in main and works & looks much better than KDE in Warty, from universe. Install Hoary now, or wait a few weeks for it to be released...
Some linux users don't want a desktop distro which has been tested for a few weeks on the server.
Well, follow and test Hoary for a few more months before releasing. Hell, wait through all of the 6month release cycle to see that it really is stable enough, taking bugfixes from Ubuntu and own developers as appropriate.
Debian should be concerned with making a rock solid distro.
The most important part of Debian is that it's completely free and independent. The 'rock solid' quality is to some extent a myth; Debian stable mostly gets security fixes, not other bugfixes that happen in upstream versions.
I like python a lot, but would a regular desktop user really use all this?
The python libs are needed for running apps that use those libs. So I guess the idea is that you can easily start using various third party python applications 'out of the box', without the need to install anything else. That's going to be important if there is no net access which is the case in a lot of the third world.
It'd be nice if I can just select up front before installation began what kind of work I want to do with my system with some of them checked by default.
That's the Debian 'tasksel' way. I prefer the current approach, where you can expect the default install to be pretty much set in stone.
That doesn't mean my personal installation doesn't have tons of crap from 'universe' and other places;-).
Synaptic is still too complex a procedure for average users to install software with, a normal user wants to click "Software to do my taxes" and have it ready, not struggle with package management.
I assume you don't consider Windows users average users then? The current approach is still much easier than searching the web for the program, downloading it and installing it (only to stare constant shareware nag screens and tolerate limited features).
For experienced users the one thing that really annoyed me was the complete lack of GCC in the default install.
Experienced users should be able to use apt-get or synaptic to install gcc. gcc is still completely supported ('it's in main' as they say in UbuntuSpeak).
what is up with all the python tools?
Ubuntu aims to be a premium development platform for Python developers. Python is one of the priorities of Ubuntu, which is one of the reasons why it will be swiping the floor with other distros RSN;-).
There is nothing else but the Debian release on the critical path.
Here's an idea on getting a Debian release out in a timely fasion:
1. Wait a few weeks until Ubuntu Hoary Hedgehog is released
2. Copy all of Hoary to Debian archives.
3. Rebrand the graphics and strings
3. Maintain the fork for as long as it takes to get the next release out. It might take a few years, but that might even be an advantage for conservative Debianists who don't want to upgrade every 6 months.
Any move in the industry to consolidate the myriad of distributions is slightly against the OS grain IMO
This is not really applicable to Ubuntu vs. UserLinux, because there is very little new code in UserLinux - it's mostly about providing support services for Debian.
Yes (if you meant using STL and stuff). I also write not-so-modern C++ 8 hours a day, so I'm not totally in the dark about how much the language reeks. I guess Python spoiled other languages for me permanently.
AFAIK GNOME is 1st class citizen of Ubuntu. Will there be re-run of GNONE vs KDE
sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
Voila', first class KDE on Ubuntu. It works like a charm, switched it to default yesterday - mostly because it's faster than Gnome and konqueror rocks.
Linux already has two useful and proven languages for desktop apps - C/C++. Make those better!
I'm afraid that is not feasible, because C++ and (especially) C are not optimal for application development by design. Application code does not need to be implemented at the low level of C++ (on PCs at least), so the low level features are just a burden.
If you want to program a Linux app, learn C - it's not that hard and it can actually be, dare I say, fun!
Believe me, spending 4 hours on a task you could accomplish w/ 5 minutes of Python coding gets old real fast.
Mono's roots are in the devil and that's enough for me.
But as they say, devil's always had the best tunes;-).
BTW, it's funny to note that I've only seen Mono promoted by Miguel&gang, and Eugenia of OSNews. Surely the technology should have more friends if it's so groktastic...
Considering the amount of actual code Miguel has written in his lifetime, if he thinks the Mono technologies he's working on will make programming easier/better, I'd probably trust him on that.
Of course it's going to be easier than C/C++, but that's mostly a strawman argument that everybody agrees on anyway.
The real issue is whether the improvement is worth the price, and whether equivalent improvements could be achieved through other, less MSFT-dependent means. This needs to be hashed out by lawyers, not coders.
One reason to pick C# might be a desire to integrate the code in some.NET windows apps later on.
If that is not a concern, just pick Python and go. It's going to be easier, and also the more "mainstream" alternative in the near future. You can learn C# later if you feel like it, but you will still be thankful that you learned Python. Unlike C#, it's good at scripting as well.
People really do want to cut and paste across applications, and not worry about 2 or more sets of windowing libraries.
That's something for freedesktop.org.
I know you can run a GTK app on KDE, but it doesn't seem to make for an easy end user experience.
Install gtk-qt to get the kde look in gtk apps.
Its not bad to have multiple items, but at some point a winner should be clear, and everyone should move on
It will be a while - Qt is still technically more advanced, but it has an undesirable license (GPL, due to Trolltech business model). Gtk is getting there, but once it's there, Qt has moved on again. I guess the best thing we can hope for now is getting the apps to have the same look and feel as the rest of the DE (Gnome, KDE).
UserLinux is that it avoids the conflict between Open Source and producing income that all commercial distributions develop while supporting the enterprise. Fully Open-Source distributions won't make a profit over the long term.
From what I've heard about Ubuntu, they are not planning to become profitable through "evil" routes. There seems to be a genuine wish to help the community and the world at large. Of course that's easier for a millionaire like Shuttleworth, but I tend to believe Ubuntu will develop to be sustainable, if not necessarily highly profitable...
Of course, the long release delay has made something of a fool of me - because so far we've only proven that this non-profit can't get it together to make a release.
Have you considered basing Userlinux on Ubuntu? I.e. create an "independent" service organization based over Ubuntu code? I wouldn't be surprised if Ubuntu welcomed the development, the first phase w/ Ubuntu is essentially about maximizing the number of users.
I've been seeing that a lot of people are recommending Ubuntu lately. What does it offer over a regular Debian Sarge install?
If you have a problem w/ Ubuntu (stable release), it's highly likely that someone can help you - there are thousands of users running the same packages you are. Sarge changes all the time, and Sarge users are less likely to document or help with the problems - why would they go to great lenghts documenting something that might change overnight?
Ubuntu community is also more appealing to newbies, due to lower degrees of elitism.
Java can get very wordy and very verbose, especially if you coming directly from C/C++, or from a language like Perl or Python.
C++ gets even more verbose than Java, because you need to manage the memory manually and implement both the.h and.cpp file. Java has a verbose culture regarding the standard library, but you need to deal with various libs with C++ also, with varying cultures of verbosity.
Plain old C and Perl are not worth this discussion, because they target different niches (low level programming and quick&dirty, respectively).
Weren't expecting one; Debian and Ubuntu are quite interdependent anyway. The observation that Debian process has not worked very well recently is hardly a distro war, esp. since a lot of Debian users are making that observation every day.
There was a motivation to bitch when I was still using Debian-proper, but after Ubuntu appeared the reason to bitch kinda disappeared because the Debian problem was solved (both of them, actually - the slow release cycle and "friendly" community). And ironically, when someone else solved the problem, Debian is finally starting to solve the problem themselves as well.
Rather, the proposal just allows the common architectures to be released before the uncommon ones are fully tested. This seems like an excellent plan, rather than having to wait forever for Debian releases.
I remember this being suggested by lots of people, always being flamed for their outrageous and unrealistic suggestion.
And now it's an "excellent plan"? I guess we needed Ubuntu to get Debian developers snap out of their reality distortion fields.
A lack of developers would be a real problem, but other than submitting bugs the number of users is simply irrelevant to the Debian development process.
Which explains some aspects of why Debian is the way it is.
(I'm one of those who jumped Debian in favor of Ubuntu).
Slashdot Mirror
Lets not fight, use and develop linux, and leave the fools to use inferior closed source products.
Many of us have jobs, and many jobs require you to use Windows. For now. Promoting Linux might help to change that someday.
Whatever Kubuntu is, they should replace the default KDE packages with it,
They did. In Hoary (which I'm running), KDE is in main and works & looks much better than KDE in Warty, from universe. Install Hoary now, or wait a few weeks for it to be released...
Some linux users don't want a desktop distro which has been tested for a few weeks on the server.
Well, follow and test Hoary for a few more months before releasing. Hell, wait through all of the 6month release cycle to see that it really is stable enough, taking bugfixes from Ubuntu and own developers as appropriate.
Debian should be concerned with making a rock solid distro.
The most important part of Debian is that it's completely free and independent. The 'rock solid' quality is to some extent a myth; Debian stable mostly gets security fixes, not other bugfixes that happen in upstream versions.
I like python a lot, but would a regular desktop user really use all this?
;-).
The python libs are needed for running apps that use those libs. So I guess the idea is that you can easily start using various third party python applications 'out of the box', without the need to install anything else. That's going to be important if there is no net access which is the case in a lot of the third world.
It'd be nice if I can just select up front before installation began what kind of work I want to do with my system with some of them checked by default.
That's the Debian 'tasksel' way. I prefer the current approach, where you can expect the default install to be pretty much set in stone.
That doesn't mean my personal installation doesn't have tons of crap from 'universe' and other places
Synaptic is still too complex a procedure for average users to install software with, a normal user wants to click "Software to do my taxes" and have it ready, not struggle with package management.
;-).
I assume you don't consider Windows users average users then? The current approach is still much easier than searching the web for the program, downloading it and installing it (only to stare constant shareware nag screens and tolerate limited features).
For experienced users the one thing that really annoyed me was the complete lack of GCC in the default install.
Experienced users should be able to use apt-get or synaptic to install gcc. gcc is still completely supported ('it's in main' as they say in UbuntuSpeak).
what is up with all the python tools?
Ubuntu aims to be a premium development platform for Python developers. Python is one of the priorities of Ubuntu, which is one of the reasons why it will be swiping the floor with other distros RSN
There is nothing else but the Debian release on the critical path.
Here's an idea on getting a Debian release out in a timely fasion:
1. Wait a few weeks until Ubuntu Hoary Hedgehog is released
2. Copy all of Hoary to Debian archives.
3. Rebrand the graphics and strings
3. Maintain the fork for as long as it takes to get the next release out. It might take a few years, but that might even be an advantage for conservative Debianists who don't want to upgrade every 6 months.
Any move in the industry to consolidate the myriad of distributions is slightly against the OS grain IMO
This is not really applicable to Ubuntu vs. UserLinux, because there is very little new code in UserLinux - it's mostly about providing support services for Debian.
I think there's a natural synergy here with Bruce Perens being an "industry insider" and Shuttleworth having deep pockets.
It's not just about the personas - the ideas of Ubuntu and UserLinux overlap by 80+%, so this would make perfect sense.
I actually asked Bruce about this a while back but he didn't reply at that time.
Let's face it, it would be a marriage made in $OTHERWORLD_OF_CHOICE.
Have you ever written modern C++?
Yes (if you meant using STL and stuff). I also write not-so-modern C++ 8 hours a day, so I'm not totally in the dark about how much the language reeks. I guess Python spoiled other languages for me permanently.
AFAIK GNOME is 1st class citizen of Ubuntu. Will there be re-run of GNONE vs KDE
sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
Voila', first class KDE on Ubuntu. It works like a charm, switched it to default yesterday - mostly because it's faster than Gnome and konqueror rocks.
Linux already has two useful and proven languages for desktop apps - C/C++. Make those better!
;-).
I'm afraid that is not feasible, because C++ and (especially) C are not optimal for application development by design. Application code does not need to be implemented at the low level of C++ (on PCs at least), so the low level features are just a burden.
If you want to program a Linux app, learn C - it's not that hard and it can actually be, dare I say, fun!
Believe me, spending 4 hours on a task you could accomplish w/ 5 minutes of Python coding gets old real fast.
Mono's roots are in the devil and that's enough for me.
But as they say, devil's always had the best tunes
BTW, it's funny to note that I've only seen Mono promoted by Miguel&gang, and Eugenia of OSNews. Surely the technology should have more friends if it's so groktastic...
Considering the amount of actual code Miguel has written in his lifetime, if he thinks the Mono technologies he's working on will make programming easier/better, I'd probably trust him on that.
Of course it's going to be easier than C/C++, but that's mostly a strawman argument that everybody agrees on anyway.
The real issue is whether the improvement is worth the price, and whether equivalent improvements could be achieved through other, less MSFT-dependent means. This needs to be hashed out by lawyers, not coders.
So why would one take one over the other?
.NET windows apps later on.
One reason to pick C# might be a desire to integrate the code in some
If that is not a concern, just pick Python and go. It's going to be easier, and also the more "mainstream" alternative in the near future. You can learn C# later if you feel like it, but you will still be thankful that you learned Python. Unlike C#, it's good at scripting as well.
People really do want to cut and paste across applications, and not worry about 2 or more sets of windowing libraries.
That's something for freedesktop.org.
I know you can run a GTK app on KDE, but it doesn't seem to make for an easy end user experience.
Install gtk-qt to get the kde look in gtk apps.
Its not bad to have multiple items, but at some point a winner should be clear, and everyone should move on
It will be a while - Qt is still technically more advanced, but it has an undesirable license (GPL, due to Trolltech business model). Gtk is getting there, but once it's there, Qt has moved on again. I guess the best thing we can hope for now is getting the apps to have the same look and feel as the rest of the DE (Gnome, KDE).
UserLinux is that it avoids the conflict between Open Source and producing income that all commercial distributions develop while supporting the enterprise. Fully Open-Source distributions won't make a profit over the long term.
From what I've heard about Ubuntu, they are not planning to become profitable through "evil" routes. There seems to be a genuine wish to help the community and the world at large. Of course that's easier for a millionaire like Shuttleworth, but I tend to believe Ubuntu will develop to be sustainable, if not necessarily highly profitable...
Of course, the long release delay has made something of a fool of me - because so far we've only proven that this non-profit can't get it together to make a release.
Have you considered basing Userlinux on Ubuntu? I.e. create an "independent" service organization based over Ubuntu code? I wouldn't be surprised if Ubuntu welcomed the development, the first phase w/ Ubuntu is essentially about maximizing the number of users.
I've been seeing that a lot of people are recommending Ubuntu lately. What does it offer over a regular Debian Sarge install?
If you have a problem w/ Ubuntu (stable release), it's highly likely that someone can help you - there are thousands of users running the same packages you are. Sarge changes all the time, and Sarge users are less likely to document or help with the problems - why would they go to great lenghts documenting something that might change overnight?
Ubuntu community is also more appealing to newbies, due to lower degrees of elitism.
Why would an omproved GCJ put Sun in trouble? They're getting another Java implementation done for free == more Java == good.
Isn't this exactly what Sun sees as a big problem, and the reason why they haven't open sourced Java?
And Miguel is quite liked inside Microsoft too.
Now there is a consolation...
Do we still hate Java or what?
Yes.
Java can get very wordy and very verbose, especially if you coming directly from C/C++, or from a language like Perl or Python.
.h and .cpp file. Java has a verbose culture regarding the standard library, but you need to deal with various libs with C++ also, with varying cultures of verbosity.
C++ gets even more verbose than Java, because you need to manage the memory manually and implement both the
Plain old C and Perl are not worth this discussion, because they target different niches (low level programming and quick&dirty, respectively).
Python, on the other hand...
Or to dosomething with contents of each file:
[dosomething(open(f).read()) for f in glob.glob("*.txt")]
I was chided at an interview for my current job because I didn't know VB, and only knew "lame" languages, like Python.
The idea is to "know" them, but treat them with due arrogance and contempt.
I'm afraid you'll get no distro war out of me.
Weren't expecting one; Debian and Ubuntu are quite interdependent anyway. The observation that Debian process has not worked very well recently is hardly a distro war, esp. since a lot of Debian users are making that observation every day.
There was a motivation to bitch when I was still using Debian-proper, but after Ubuntu appeared the reason to bitch kinda disappeared because the Debian problem was solved (both of them, actually - the slow release cycle and "friendly" community). And ironically, when someone else solved the problem, Debian is finally starting to solve the problem themselves as well.
Rather, the proposal just allows the common architectures to be released before the uncommon ones are fully tested. This seems like an excellent plan, rather than having to wait forever for Debian releases.
I remember this being suggested by lots of people, always being flamed for their outrageous and unrealistic suggestion.
And now it's an "excellent plan"? I guess we needed Ubuntu to get Debian developers snap out of their reality distortion fields.
A lack of developers would be a real problem, but other than submitting bugs the number of users is simply irrelevant to the Debian development process.
Which explains some aspects of why Debian is the way it is.
(I'm one of those who jumped Debian in favor of Ubuntu).