The Pre runs a practically normal Linux distribution. Granted, all the applications are written in Javascript and not some compiled language using C, but I look at that as a good thing.
You realize that it doesn't matter if the device runs Linux when the development environment is locked down, right?
You don't have to hack C or C++ to make programs for this device either; PyGtk has emerged as the most popular programming platform for third party developers of Maemo software.
What Nokia is bringing to the table is completely different from Android / Palm - it's a full, open Linux, no strings attached. You can develop software using the tools you want to use, instead of sticking to Java or Javascript.
I spend my weekends drinking and getting pussy (There's a vapid slut still passed out in my bed right now). Python and ruby are for guys who have no social life and/or can't get laid.
So Java/C# people start drinking early in the morning, and proceed with harassing random women on the street?
Even if you were into booze & partying lifestyle, you could still get a lot of hacking done before the evening starts.
C/C++ aren't good either, but for small solutions C can be useful while C++ has the disadvantages of both C and object-orienting combined.
This betrays utter lack of understanding of C++. C++, when done properly, has very little of the problems of C (type unsafety and tedious manual memory management come to mind first).
That's the biggest thing that department managers the world over don't want to admit. Nobody has yet found a reliable way to interview people that will consistently result in hiring people you can work with that meet all your requirements.
I don't understand why it would be so hard. Good (or at least "above average") programmers should be pretty easy to spot in an interview.
Of course, C++ is emphatically not for beginners. It's a "professional" language to the core, and I don't think it ever had intention to be anything else.
Java's garbage collection eliminates the confusion introduced by C++ arrays, references and pointers.
This, I'm not sure about. For "learning" type tasks, I don't see a big problem of leaking some memory.
Seems like it's a big divide. Personally I much prefer the Gnome file picker over any other, but it has been ages (seems like years) since I last had to use "browse for other folders". No, that's not because I only ever dump stuff in a single folder, that's just because it's always expanded on my machines. I've got a couple of QT apps installed on my home machine and the file picker in their feels like a big step backwards to the old Windows days. The "places" and the cookie crumb for location can be very useful.
If you have Jaunty and Gnome, the Qt apps (not KDE apps) use the Gtk file dialog by default. Try it out.
Interestingly, Shuttleworth didn't indicate in any way that Gnome 3 could have even a remote shot at getting into the LTS. Luckily, putting it in just after the release would be a suicide move.
I've been programming in C++ for more than 20 years and in C for more than 25 years, as my primary languages. My dislike of those languages is based on intimate familiarity with it.
I wasn't asking about C++, but about Qt - I developed a visceral dislike of C++ when doing Symbian development, even if it was not C++'s fault at all.
Although the new C++ standard fixes some things, it makes the basic problem with C++ worse--its complexity.
I have never been bitten by the complexity of the language. That problem is a bit overhyped.
OTOH, I have been bitten by crappy libraries (yes, that includes the standard library).
How is buying Trolltech going to fix the problem that Nokia's engineers apparently don't know how to organize a menu, organize a dialog, perform user testing, or perform bug tracking?
No, it (QtCore part) can be used throughout the stack.
But the "algorithms" aren't equivalent because the C++ programmer aren't even catching up with the level of functionality that users of better languages can implement in the same amount of time.
Or so you would believe. Have you ever actually tried Qt? Or is all of this based on Java/C# propaganda you've read & bad C++ experience with crappy frameworks?
Don't forget that things will only get better as the new C++ standard rolls in (we'll get lambdas, auto,...).
With Qt, Nokia is betting on the wrong horse. They should either switch to Android or buy Palm or do something entirely new.
We'll see about that. I have to say my enthusiasm for Android waned the second I heard of Nokia buying Trolltech.
No, they won't. C++ is fast for small inner loops because programmers there can take full advantage of its features. Big applications end up being slow and bloated in C++ because programmers simply cannot manage the complexity anymore: all their time goes into chasing pointer bugs and dealing with include files, and little remains for performance tuning and algorithms.
That's bollocks. C++ is not really that much less productive than Java/C# if you have a good platform toolkit to go with it (Qt). With Qt, you don't really manage your memory manually most of the time, the classes do it themselves through implicit sharing.
Admittedly, C++ is much less productive than Python & other dynamic languages, but that's not the issue at table here; we are comparing against Java, C#, ObjC.
And what is this "long run" you're speaking of anyway? If it takes 5 years for Nokia to optimize their current C++ applications, do you think anybody will care?
The phone applications easily have a life span of several years. They get improved, but rarely rewritten.
This applies even more so to "platform" level stuff. If you write more of that in C++ than Java, you'll have a faster platform, given equivalent algorithms.
There is no "in the long run" for software; what counts is what you can deliver in 3-6 months, not in a few years.
It seems Nokia was able to turn a profit with Symbian, even if Symbian is widely dreaded as the least productive programming environment in existence. I believe they will do great with Qt, and attract a great deal of third party interest as well.
Another problem with their choice is that it ties them to C++; the trend in mobile development, however, is towards other languages, like Javascript (Pre), Java (Android), Objective-C (iPhone), and C# (Windows Mobile).
Actually, I think this will end up being a competitive advantage in the long run. If Nokia smartphones end up being the *only* smartphones that run (mostly) raw native code compiled straight for the metal, they will end up being the fastest in the long run, given equivalent hardware.
That would be fine if Symbian actually ended up being the fastest and having the best UI of the bunch, but it's actually the slowest and least responsive of the bunch.
The problem with Symbian isn't C++ - it's C++ done horribly wrong, and series of unfortunate technical choices (e.g. pervasive client-server architecture).
The biggest pain with QT, is that since it tries to be cross platform is it re-implements everything (Networking, Audio, Mutexs etc... etc..). They make it fairly easy to use their bad, slow code, while the "beautiful" non-standard signal slot system makes it a pain to integrate with real C or C++ code.
This "biggest pain" of yours is what makes it cross platform.
You know what? You don't need to use these "slow" wrappers, you can use the file descriptors directly if you wish, and call to posix to your hearts content, if you don't care about running the code outside Linux. Good luck explaining that to your manager though.
I invite to you to investigate how "slow" these wrappers are by just reading the code:
http://tinyurl.com/loerlj
They make it fairly easy to use their bad, slow code, while the "beautiful" non-standard signal slot system makes it a pain to integrate with real C or C++ code.
But I won't know until Ubuntu updates us from 3.0.11.
You can "apt-get install firefox-3.5" right now. You'll get the rc, and final version soon. It imports the old ff profile as well.
Re:Hooray fileinfo is standard!
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For Python, it's emphasis on simple syntax means that it's very hard to determine the capabilities of an object just by looking at the code that uses it. Choose bad variable names and you'll be in real trouble.
Mr Limuxwatch hides any information about himself or his motives.. I mean, is he upset because it hasn't progressed to his satisfaction ?.. Is he upset because he doesn't want it done at all ?.. exactly what is his stake in all this ?
It's obvious that for him, Linux == bad, and he wants Munich to "come to its senses" and cave in.
It's clear he's a complete shill, and isn't trying to hide it.
And let it be noted that there is no more delicate matter to take in hand nor more dangerous to conduct, nor more doubtful in its success than to set up as a leader in the introduction of changes. For he who innovates will have for his enemies all those who are well off under the existing order of things, and only lukewarm supporters in those who might be better off under the new.
It's not just "a company", it's Microsoft. If you don't know why Microsoft is special, I recommend a few more years in the internets before proceeding with commenting on tech websites.
It's supposed to save money in the long run, of course MS will be cheaper at first because you don't have to cope with defeating the vendor lock-in if you stay with Windows but it matters what happens a few years down the line.
Additionally, the money they use will be channeled to local companies (which means more jobs, improvement of local skill pool, making it cheaper to repeat such transitions in other cities).
Definitely beats shoveling the money to american robber baron company by any stretch.
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The Pre runs a practically normal Linux distribution. Granted, all the applications are written in Javascript and not some compiled language using C, but I look at that as a good thing.
You realize that it doesn't matter if the device runs Linux when the development environment is locked down, right?
You don't have to hack C or C++ to make programs for this device either; PyGtk has emerged as the most popular programming platform for third party developers of Maemo software.
What Nokia is bringing to the table is completely different from Android / Palm - it's a full, open Linux, no strings attached. You can develop software using the tools you want to use, instead of sticking to Java or Javascript.
I spend my weekends drinking and getting pussy (There's a vapid slut still passed out in my bed right now). Python and ruby are for guys who have no social life and/or can't get laid.
So Java/C# people start drinking early in the morning, and proceed with harassing random women on the street?
Even if you were into booze & partying lifestyle, you could still get a lot of hacking done before the evening starts.
I sure wouldn't be doing Python (gack, too verbose, might well be using C or Java) or Ruby (slow, slow, slow).
Lua less verbose than Python? Citation/code example needed.
C/C++ aren't good either, but for small solutions C can be useful while C++ has the disadvantages of both C and object-orienting combined.
This betrays utter lack of understanding of C++. C++, when done properly, has very little of the problems of C (type unsafety and tedious manual memory management come to mind first).
That's the biggest thing that department managers the world over don't want to admit. Nobody has yet found a reliable way to interview people that will consistently result in hiring people you can work with that meet all your requirements.
I don't understand why it would be so hard. Good (or at least "above average") programmers should be pretty easy to spot in an interview.
Of course, C++ is emphatically not for beginners. It's a "professional" language to the core, and I don't think it ever had intention to be anything else.
Java's garbage collection eliminates the confusion introduced by C++ arrays, references and pointers.
This, I'm not sure about. For "learning" type tasks, I don't see a big problem of leaking some memory.
Seems like it's a big divide. Personally I much prefer the Gnome file picker over any other, but it has been ages (seems like years) since I last had to use "browse for other folders". No, that's not because I only ever dump stuff in a single folder, that's just because it's always expanded on my machines. I've got a couple of QT apps installed on my home machine and the file picker in their feels like a big step backwards to the old Windows days. The "places" and the cookie crumb for location can be very useful.
If you have Jaunty and Gnome, the Qt apps (not KDE apps) use the Gtk file dialog by default. Try it out.
TFA:
Not sure if GNOME3 will make the next LTS
Interestingly, Shuttleworth didn't indicate in any way that Gnome 3 could have even a remote shot at getting into the LTS. Luckily, putting it in just after the release would be a suicide move.
I've been programming in C++ for more than 20 years and in C for more than 25 years, as my primary languages. My dislike of those languages is based on intimate familiarity with it.
I wasn't asking about C++, but about Qt - I developed a visceral dislike of C++ when doing Symbian development, even if it was not C++'s fault at all.
Although the new C++ standard fixes some things, it makes the basic problem with C++ worse--its complexity.
I have never been bitten by the complexity of the language. That problem is a bit overhyped.
OTOH, I have been bitten by crappy libraries (yes, that includes the standard library).
How is buying Trolltech going to fix the problem that Nokia's engineers apparently don't know how to organize a menu, organize a dialog, perform user testing, or perform bug tracking?
Subjective.
Ok, it seems they got the audio recording of the talk up too.
Check it out at:
http://flors.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/maemo-harmattan-keynote-at-gcds/
Qt is an application and GUI toolkit.
No, it (QtCore part) can be used throughout the stack.
But the "algorithms" aren't equivalent because the C++ programmer aren't even catching up with the level of functionality that users of better languages can implement in the same amount of time.
Or so you would believe. Have you ever actually tried Qt? Or is all of this based on Java/C# propaganda you've read & bad C++ experience with crappy frameworks?
Don't forget that things will only get better as the new C++ standard rolls in (we'll get lambdas, auto, ...).
With Qt, Nokia is betting on the wrong horse. They should either switch to Android or buy Palm or do something entirely new.
We'll see about that. I have to say my enthusiasm for Android waned the second I heard of Nokia buying Trolltech.
No, they won't. C++ is fast for small inner loops because programmers there can take full advantage of its features. Big applications end up being slow and bloated in C++ because programmers simply cannot manage the complexity anymore: all their time goes into chasing pointer bugs and dealing with include files, and little remains for performance tuning and algorithms.
That's bollocks. C++ is not really that much less productive than Java/C# if you have a good platform toolkit to go with it (Qt). With Qt, you don't really manage your memory manually most of the time, the classes do it themselves through implicit sharing.
Admittedly, C++ is much less productive than Python & other dynamic languages, but that's not the issue at table here; we are comparing against Java, C#, ObjC.
And what is this "long run" you're speaking of anyway? If it takes 5 years for Nokia to optimize their current C++ applications, do you think anybody will care?
The phone applications easily have a life span of several years. They get improved, but rarely rewritten.
This applies even more so to "platform" level stuff. If you write more of that in C++ than Java, you'll have a faster platform, given equivalent algorithms.
There is no "in the long run" for software; what counts is what you can deliver in 3-6 months, not in a few years.
It seems Nokia was able to turn a profit with Symbian, even if Symbian is widely dreaded as the least productive programming environment in existence. I believe they will do great with Qt, and attract a great deal of third party interest as well.
Another problem with their choice is that it ties them to C++; the trend in mobile development, however, is towards other languages, like Javascript (Pre), Java (Android), Objective-C (iPhone), and C# (Windows Mobile).
Actually, I think this will end up being a competitive advantage in the long run. If Nokia smartphones end up being the *only* smartphones that run (mostly) raw native code compiled straight for the metal, they will end up being the fastest in the long run, given equivalent hardware.
That would be fine if Symbian actually ended up being the fastest and having the best UI of the bunch, but it's actually the slowest and least responsive of the bunch.
The problem with Symbian isn't C++ - it's C++ done horribly wrong, and series of unfortunate technical choices (e.g. pervasive client-server architecture).
The biggest pain with QT, is that since it tries to be cross platform is it re-implements everything (Networking, Audio, Mutexs etc... etc..). They make it fairly easy to use their bad, slow code, while the "beautiful" non-standard signal slot system makes it a pain to integrate with real C or C++ code.
This "biggest pain" of yours is what makes it cross platform.
You know what? You don't need to use these "slow" wrappers, you can use the file descriptors directly if you wish, and call to posix to your hearts content, if you don't care about running the code outside Linux. Good luck explaining that to your manager though.
I invite to you to investigate how "slow" these wrappers are by just reading the code:
http://tinyurl.com/loerlj
They make it fairly easy to use their bad, slow code, while the "beautiful" non-standard signal slot system makes it a pain to integrate with real C or C++ code.
PIBKCAP, probably.
But I won't know until Ubuntu updates us from 3.0.11.
You can "apt-get install firefox-3.5" right now. You'll get the rc, and final version soon. It imports the old ff profile as well.
For Python, it's emphasis on simple syntax means that it's very hard to determine the capabilities of an object just by looking at the code that uses it. Choose bad variable names and you'll be in real trouble.
What the hell does this mean?
You can use xmodmap for that. No need for hardware co-operation.
Mr Limuxwatch hides any information about himself or his motives.. I mean, is he upset because it hasn't progressed to his satisfaction ? .. Is he upset because he doesn't want it done at all ?.. exactly what is his stake in all this ?
It's obvious that for him, Linux == bad, and he wants Munich to "come to its senses" and cave in.
It's clear he's a complete shill, and isn't trying to hide it.
And to quote Macchiavelli's "Prince":
And let it be noted that there is no more delicate matter to take in hand nor more dangerous to conduct, nor more doubtful in its success than to set up as a leader in the introduction of changes. For he who innovates will have for his enemies all those who are well off under the existing order of things, and only lukewarm supporters in those who might be better off under the new.
whats wrong with a company making a profit?
Strawman.
It's not just "a company", it's Microsoft. If you don't know why Microsoft is special, I recommend a few more years in the internets before proceeding with commenting on tech websites.
as alot of people finding out in these tough times its hard to put food on a table if you give your work away for free
If work was being given away for free, the budget would be a tad smaller, right?
I repeat: buying Microsoft licenses is *not* going to improve economy. It only improves Microsoft profits.
It's supposed to save money in the long run, of course MS will be cheaper at first because you don't have to cope with defeating the vendor lock-in if you stay with Windows but it matters what happens a few years down the line.
Additionally, the money they use will be channeled to local companies (which means more jobs, improvement of local skill pool, making it cheaper to repeat such transitions in other cities).
Definitely beats shoveling the money to american robber baron company by any stretch.
I think its silly to act like the Google meme or the Facebook meme is in any way an 'end all' solution or method for use of the internet.
Not before Google Wave at least.
Apart from that, I find it ridiculous to think that you can find useful information on Facebook (now or in the near future).
That's something I've been thinking about lately. Why is that?
Surely you jest. Sane development time & maintenance costs, for starters...
And the upcoming Maemo 5 "fremantle" devices. Youtube has some vids.