I didn't know I was supposed to give a full summary. It was just an example of why they have certain lines.
AGAIN, exactly the point. A few lines makes perfect sense. Customizing individual computers make perfect sense! 8 different overlapping product lines for business desktops? Really?
I don't really care so much whether it's "Optiplex" or whatever, it's the specs and stuff they put inside that matters.
Which I should note, are not always readily apparent. For instance, 3 months ago bought a business Vostro with Win7 64-bit. Pretty nice computer, good specs, lots of ram, fast processor, etc.
It doesn't have a DVI port. No DVI! The thing came with a 23" monitor!
FWIW, I personally build my own desktops for home use (as I mentioned the parts inside are more important than the logo on the outside;) ), but if I have to buy stuff for work or other people, Dell really isn't so bad - they're not great but they are typically "average" for reliability and quality. I've had more negative experiences with HP - DOA rates were like 1 in 7 at one time (HP servers didn't DOA much, but they tried to be too clever with BIOS and proprietary crap). For servers I actually prefer IBM.
Building your own computer is certainly one way to go. I used to do this, and would probably continue to build for home (I got an amazing deal on a dell+monitor from fatwallet a couple years ago). I personally have had no better long-term survival rates from computers I've built out of quality components than dells etc.
Even IF you're assuming the OP doesn't care about the Chinese government's filtering and censoring from a philosophical, practical or personal viewpoint, let me wikipedia that for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage
Slashdot rails against DMCA, censorship, walled gardens, etc, and you expect the Chinese government to get a free pass? What a joke.
You can raise frail strawmen all you want, but it's not about how "relaxed" Asians or anything else like "hate and fear" that you've just made up in your post. It's very specifically about the Chinese government. Exactly what part of "I am very leery of the government" have you completely failed to understand?
Is this REALLY a conversation you want to get into?
I know you're an AC and probably won't reply, but you raised some interesting and totally wrong points.
The point I made was about information overload. Apple differentiates themselves by selling products that are different, and that are simple. The simplicity extends from the OS, to the physical design, to the marketing product lines.
You're EXACTLY right about the choices available at Dell and when you say "Take it back a little further. Why even pick a Dell, why not HP, Acer, some house brand" you've unwittingly hit the nail on the head though you've failed to realize it! Exactly, WHY pick a Dell? There's no reason. They make junky computers and quality computers that are virtually indistinguishable from Acer, HP, Lenovo, etc etc etc.
Do you wonder how many people have gone to dell.com only to be overwhelmed and then head to a nearby Apple store? Given the success of the Apple stores and Apple in the last roughly decade, I think it's probably quite a few people!
I think you're confused / missing what I said. I wasn't even getting into laptops, I was ONLY talking business desktops (though I think some of your points do stand for ie the latitude line)! You managed to summarize 5 of the product lines that show up under "business desktops" but you missed Optiplex, Studio and Precision.
When even slashdotters trying to argue with my point are unsure of Dell product lines, what does that tell you about the situation?
I wouldn't be touting the demise of Dell just yet. I still recommend them. Their site is far easier to find drivers and chatting with tech support is simple. Configuring a system is easy. I wouldn't actually call their tech support line, though, but I wouldn't call any of the major computer tech support lines.
I've been using OSX for about 7 years, and I think in that entire time I have had to download one third-party driver.
I've had to deal with HP, Dell, and Apple tech support. Apple blows the other two out of the water.
After extensively evaluating laptops for work purposes within the last 6 months, I went with Lenovo. I've never particularly liked the Dell laptops I've dealt with, though as you point out, they are nearly infinitely customizable.
I didn't say it was necessarily a good thing, I think it's an example of how Apple simplicity blows the competition out of the water.
When your average person goes to buy a Mac, they have two basic choices. (discounting Mac Mini and iPad)
1) Get a laptop 2) Get a desktop
If they want a laptop, they have two choices:
1) Get a cheaper laptop (Macbook) 2) Get a more expensive laptop (Macbook Pro)
Each of which has ~3 main configuration
If they want a desktop, they have two choices:
1) Get a cheaper system (iMac) 2) Get a more expensive system (Mac Pro)
Each of which has ~3 main configuration.
The systems are labelled clearly (ie Macbook vs Macbook Pro). There are clear differences between them, and they scale from a low end computer at ~$900 to a very high end computer at $4000+ bucks. Apple systems are also rough in the upselling category--each upgrade has that one feature that makes it JUST worth having!
Like I said, compare that to Dell where when looking at business desktops alone there are: Vostro, Optiplex, Inspiron, Studio, XPS, AlienWare and Precision all of which have probably dozens of configurations and models, some VERY different from each other. There are some stupid choices, like you can't (or couldn't) get Windows 7 64-bit on many of the Optiplex line, when you could on the Vostros, even though Vostros are supposedly the inferior quality machine. What gives? It took me hours of reading to figure out which Dell was the best (and then the pricing differential and lack of 64-bit os license made me pick a Vostro).
Again, say what you will about Apple / "The Party" but their product lines should be required reading for the other PC makers...
I ended up picking a Vostro business computer. I would have preferred one of the other lines, but the vostro had far better specs and came with a Win7 64-bit license. A similarly specced Optiplex that had Win7 64-bit cost several times as much when I last checked (~3-4 months ago)
We've had pretty good luck with Mac longevity. We JUST had a dual g5 powermac (refurb too) die from a powersupply failure.
I have a 3 year old MBP that I like...it's had a rough existence. It had the Nvidia chipset bug and so had the logic board replaced. Immediately afterwards it developed a monitor problem (bottom 1/3 of the monitor froze) and so Apple agreed to replace the monitor for free. Not a bad deal. They gave me a new battery while they were at it too...
The biggest problem is that consumers don't read tech sites before purchasing, which means they are beholden to the whims of the tech company they are buying from. If they choose to deceive customers it will only become apparent when it's reported by large media organisations.
I think a bigger problem than that is information overload.
I work for a small business. I used to build custom computers in the 90s but haven't felt it's been worth it in a long time.
So what do I buy today for desktops? Dell? Lenovo? HP? Acer? something else?
If I settle on Dell, which models? Inspiron? Dimension? Vostro? Studio? etc. Each of those branches has DOZENS of configurations and differences.
Annoying.
Say what you will about Apple, but their products lines are much easier to grok.
Getting an autoexec.bat/config.sys setup that worked for any given program was not the same as completely OPTIMIZING for a given program. Afterall, for most of the days of DOS, a single autoexec/config could provide the drivers and config you needed that would run for most programs. Knowing exactly what drivers were needed, how to load mscdex into the right memory zone, etc goes beyond merely working to toying with the computer. There's no need to run SpeedDisk every day!
People obsessed with this level of optimization still exist. Look around for registry tweaks and you'll easily find people doing extreme (and imho much of it not at all beneficial) stuff. For that matter look at the forums of case modders and builders. They're a still unique and small group who are still interested with the computers as computers rather than computers as tools. Of course they are very well represented on places like slashdot...
I actually completely agree with your comment, and I think to a large degree that's exactly what happened in my life. I grew up in the 80s and remember being obsessed with trying to optimize my autoexec.bat and config.sys to get the optimal mix of memory for every game; running Norton speeddisk daily, etc. Later, building my own computers and spending hours researching each part. I used to HATE Mac OS and ran os/2 (my favorite thing I remember from OS/2 is that the config.sys file had tons of device drivers...maybe like 80 lines. If you put them in alphabetical order, they loaded MUCH faster at boot time!) for years, etc.
Now I use a macbookpro at home, work, and travel and have an iphone. It's just not worth it anymore! I too have really fond memories of those days, and of the early days of the Internet, etc. But you're right, it's stale and boring now, and computers are moving to a stage where it's more about what you can use computers to do, rather than what you can do on computers (if that makes sense). Other than at work I check my email and IM (etc) far less often than I did 5-10 years ago.
Stop clinging to the past. Since when have geeks been so conservative?
Everybody is conservative about things they like! I absolutely agree that many geeks (just read some of the comments here!) are being absolutely moronic about Apple, but I don't think it's terribly surprising. Their world is changing and they're scared of the changes. We're all scared of changes to some degree, but some people are scared of men marrying men, some are scared of the environment tomorrow being different than it is today; some are scared of Islam being the biggest world religion, and some are scared of Apple.
The Internet is never going to be the same as it was 10 years ago, no matter how much we may miss it. Computers are never going to be like they were 20 years ago, no matter how much we may miss it. That's life!
I think more than Apple, most are scared about what it means that so many people DO like the iPod and so many people DO like the iPhone and iPad despite what they see as their obvious and numerous flaws. People get morally indignant! It's almost like there's a degree of cognitive dissonance going on...
They're already in a world of hurt with so many vendors ramping to release Android portable devices of all sorts form factors, now they have to compete in the CPU arena too?
This statement only true for certain values of "world of hurt"? Exactly which definition of "world of hurt" are you using?
Google the Macbook Pro/iMac nvidia bug. Nvidia sold Apple defective chips. Nvidia is covering the cost of all repairs.
Almost all 2007-2009 roughly Macbook Pros will suffer from this. My mbp, my wife's and two coworkers have had this problem. Repair was done for free and in ~2 days at the Apple store.
Apple can't GUARANTEE that every single component in a system is good, but I've had excellent support with their warranty / repair services.
Oh, and let's no forget the mandatory service plan since Apple gives you a flat one month warranty, that's it. My mini's hard drive took a shit at one year plus two months. They told me I was SOL.
AFAIK this is totally wrong? I thought all Apple products come with a one year warranty (90 days of phone support).
You could also have bought a 3 year warranty (Which I never do on something this cheap) for like $150 iirc.
Sucks that the drive broke, but surely a slashdotter could open a mac mini and replace the drive easily enough? I've done so on many models of iMac (even back it was hard!)
Slashdot Mirror
If you don't mind my asking, are you or your family from China originally?
I didn't know I was supposed to give a full summary. It was just an example of why they have certain lines.
AGAIN, exactly the point. A few lines makes perfect sense. Customizing individual computers make perfect sense! 8 different overlapping product lines for business desktops? Really?
I don't really care so much whether it's "Optiplex" or whatever, it's the specs and stuff they put inside that matters.
Which I should note, are not always readily apparent. For instance, 3 months ago bought a business Vostro with Win7 64-bit. Pretty nice computer, good specs, lots of ram, fast processor, etc.
It doesn't have a DVI port. No DVI! The thing came with a 23" monitor!
FWIW, I personally build my own desktops for home use (as I mentioned the parts inside are more important than the logo on the outside ;) ), but if I have to buy stuff for work or other people, Dell really isn't so bad - they're not great but they are typically "average" for reliability and quality. I've had more negative experiences with HP - DOA rates were like 1 in 7 at one time (HP servers didn't DOA much, but they tried to be too clever with BIOS and proprietary crap). For servers I actually prefer IBM.
Building your own computer is certainly one way to go. I used to do this, and would probably continue to build for home (I got an amazing deal on a dell+monitor from fatwallet a couple years ago). I personally have had no better long-term survival rates from computers I've built out of quality components than dells etc.
Even IF you're assuming the OP doesn't care about the Chinese government's filtering and censoring from a philosophical, practical or personal viewpoint, let me wikipedia that for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage
Slashdot rails against DMCA, censorship, walled gardens, etc, and you expect the Chinese government to get a free pass? What a joke.
You can raise frail strawmen all you want, but it's not about how "relaxed" Asians or anything else like "hate and fear" that you've just made up in your post. It's very specifically about the Chinese government. Exactly what part of "I am very leery of the government" have you completely failed to understand?
Is this REALLY a conversation you want to get into?
My 3gs gets fairly different speedtest results depending on if/where/how hard I am holding it.
I know you're an AC and probably won't reply, but you raised some interesting and totally wrong points.
The point I made was about information overload. Apple differentiates themselves by selling products that are different, and that are simple. The simplicity extends from the OS, to the physical design, to the marketing product lines.
You're EXACTLY right about the choices available at Dell and when you say "Take it back a little further. Why even pick a Dell, why not HP, Acer, some house brand" you've unwittingly hit the nail on the head though you've failed to realize it! Exactly, WHY pick a Dell? There's no reason. They make junky computers and quality computers that are virtually indistinguishable from Acer, HP, Lenovo, etc etc etc.
Do you wonder how many people have gone to dell.com only to be overwhelmed and then head to a nearby Apple store? Given the success of the Apple stores and Apple in the last roughly decade, I think it's probably quite a few people!
I think Anandtech does crappy reviews of notebooks and systems.
Decent on components, not so good on systems.
According to the guide I should get a Toshiba, Alienware, or Acer? I went with a Lenovo.
I think you're confused / missing what I said. I wasn't even getting into laptops, I was ONLY talking business desktops (though I think some of your points do stand for ie the latitude line)! You managed to summarize 5 of the product lines that show up under "business desktops" but you missed Optiplex, Studio and Precision.
When even slashdotters trying to argue with my point are unsure of Dell product lines, what does that tell you about the situation?
I wouldn't be touting the demise of Dell just yet. I still recommend them. Their site is far easier to find drivers and chatting with tech support is simple. Configuring a system is easy. I wouldn't actually call their tech support line, though, but I wouldn't call any of the major computer tech support lines.
I've been using OSX for about 7 years, and I think in that entire time I have had to download one third-party driver.
I've had to deal with HP, Dell, and Apple tech support. Apple blows the other two out of the water.
After extensively evaluating laptops for work purposes within the last 6 months, I went with Lenovo. I've never particularly liked the Dell laptops I've dealt with, though as you point out, they are nearly infinitely customizable.
I didn't say it was necessarily a good thing, I think it's an example of how Apple simplicity blows the competition out of the water.
When your average person goes to buy a Mac, they have two basic choices. (discounting Mac Mini and iPad)
1) Get a laptop
2) Get a desktop
If they want a laptop, they have two choices:
1) Get a cheaper laptop (Macbook)
2) Get a more expensive laptop (Macbook Pro)
Each of which has ~3 main configuration
If they want a desktop, they have two choices:
1) Get a cheaper system (iMac)
2) Get a more expensive system (Mac Pro)
Each of which has ~3 main configuration.
The systems are labelled clearly (ie Macbook vs Macbook Pro). There are clear differences between them, and they scale from a low end computer at ~$900 to a very high end computer at $4000+ bucks. Apple systems are also rough in the upselling category--each upgrade has that one feature that makes it JUST worth having!
Like I said, compare that to Dell where when looking at business desktops alone there are: Vostro, Optiplex, Inspiron, Studio, XPS, AlienWare and Precision all of which have probably dozens of configurations and models, some VERY different from each other. There are some stupid choices, like you can't (or couldn't) get Windows 7 64-bit on many of the Optiplex line, when you could on the Vostros, even though Vostros are supposedly the inferior quality machine. What gives? It took me hours of reading to figure out which Dell was the best (and then the pricing differential and lack of 64-bit os license made me pick a Vostro).
Again, say what you will about Apple / "The Party" but their product lines should be required reading for the other PC makers...
I ended up picking a Vostro business computer. I would have preferred one of the other lines, but the vostro had far better specs and came with a Win7 64-bit license. A similarly specced Optiplex that had Win7 64-bit cost several times as much when I last checked (~3-4 months ago)
We've had pretty good luck with Mac longevity. We JUST had a dual g5 powermac (refurb too) die from a powersupply failure.
I have a 3 year old MBP that I like...it's had a rough existence. It had the Nvidia chipset bug and so had the logic board replaced. Immediately afterwards it developed a monitor problem (bottom 1/3 of the monitor froze) and so Apple agreed to replace the monitor for free. Not a bad deal. They gave me a new battery while they were at it too...
Completely agree re: getting fucked by upgrades.
The biggest problem is that consumers don't read tech sites before purchasing, which means they are beholden to the whims of the tech company they are buying from. If they choose to deceive customers it will only become apparent when it's reported by large media organisations.
I think a bigger problem than that is information overload.
I work for a small business. I used to build custom computers in the 90s but haven't felt it's been worth it in a long time.
So what do I buy today for desktops? Dell? Lenovo? HP? Acer? something else?
If I settle on Dell, which models? Inspiron? Dimension? Vostro? Studio? etc. Each of those branches has DOZENS of configurations and differences.
Annoying.
Say what you will about Apple, but their products lines are much easier to grok.
You really think what I wrote was a rant? That's a kind of tough definition of rant... I even referred to Sheepeople!
The point about the OP that made the post a rant was the categorizing (which OP continues to do in 2nd reply to me) of apple users as dumb sheepeople.
No, that's actually not right.
Getting an autoexec.bat/config.sys setup that worked for any given program was not the same as completely OPTIMIZING for a given program. Afterall, for most of the days of DOS, a single autoexec/config could provide the drivers and config you needed that would run for most programs. Knowing exactly what drivers were needed, how to load mscdex into the right memory zone, etc goes beyond merely working to toying with the computer. There's no need to run SpeedDisk every day!
People obsessed with this level of optimization still exist. Look around for registry tweaks and you'll easily find people doing extreme (and imho much of it not at all beneficial) stuff. For that matter look at the forums of case modders and builders. They're a still unique and small group who are still interested with the computers as computers rather than computers as tools. Of course they are very well represented on places like slashdot...
I actually completely agree with your comment, and I think to a large degree that's exactly what happened in my life. I grew up in the 80s and remember being obsessed with trying to optimize my autoexec.bat and config.sys to get the optimal mix of memory for every game; running Norton speeddisk daily, etc. Later, building my own computers and spending hours researching each part. I used to HATE Mac OS and ran os/2 (my favorite thing I remember from OS/2 is that the config.sys file had tons of device drivers...maybe like 80 lines. If you put them in alphabetical order, they loaded MUCH faster at boot time!) for years, etc.
Now I use a macbookpro at home, work, and travel and have an iphone. It's just not worth it anymore! I too have really fond memories of those days, and of the early days of the Internet, etc. But you're right, it's stale and boring now, and computers are moving to a stage where it's more about what you can use computers to do, rather than what you can do on computers (if that makes sense). Other than at work I check my email and IM (etc) far less often than I did 5-10 years ago.
Stop clinging to the past. Since when have geeks been so conservative?
Everybody is conservative about things they like! I absolutely agree that many geeks (just read some of the comments here!) are being absolutely moronic about Apple, but I don't think it's terribly surprising. Their world is changing and they're scared of the changes. We're all scared of changes to some degree, but some people are scared of men marrying men, some are scared of the environment tomorrow being different than it is today; some are scared of Islam being the biggest world religion, and some are scared of Apple.
The Internet is never going to be the same as it was 10 years ago, no matter how much we may miss it. Computers are never going to be like they were 20 years ago, no matter how much we may miss it. That's life!
I think more than Apple, most are scared about what it means that so many people DO like the iPod and so many people DO like the iPhone and iPad despite what they see as their obvious and numerous flaws. People get morally indignant! It's almost like there's a degree of cognitive dissonance going on...
You do realize that people who start wildly ranting about "sheep" or "sheeple" or my personal favorite "sheepeople" instantly lose credibility?
Relevant to nothing, I'm completely amused by how people refer to Mac / Apple products! For instance IOS vs iOS or IPhone vs iPhone.
The other day someone yelled at me for typing osx instead of OS-X (which is wrong, btw) ... and here we have OS/X.
What does it all mean? ;-)
2) Apple seems to prefer the "silent failure" route
What do you mean?
They're already in a world of hurt with so many vendors ramping to release Android portable devices of all sorts form factors, now they have to compete in the CPU arena too?
This statement only true for certain values of "world of hurt"? Exactly which definition of "world of hurt" are you using?
That's good to know. Amex is the only one I have had experience with. Thanks for the info.
However don't most credit cards extend warranty by +1 year?
Google the Macbook Pro/iMac nvidia bug. Nvidia sold Apple defective chips. Nvidia is covering the cost of all repairs.
Almost all 2007-2009 roughly Macbook Pros will suffer from this. My mbp, my wife's and two coworkers have had this problem. Repair was done for free and in ~2 days at the Apple store.
Apple can't GUARANTEE that every single component in a system is good, but I've had excellent support with their warranty / repair services.
Oh, and let's no forget the mandatory service plan since Apple gives you a flat one month warranty, that's it. My mini's hard drive took a shit at one year plus two months. They told me I was SOL.
AFAIK this is totally wrong? I thought all Apple products come with a one year warranty (90 days of phone support).
You could also have bought a 3 year warranty (Which I never do on something this cheap) for like $150 iirc.
Sucks that the drive broke, but surely a slashdotter could open a mac mini and replace the drive easily enough? I've done so on many models of iMac (even back it was hard!)
Speaking for myself I had never heard of AutoPager. Thanks for the heads-up!