So, I should just toss my morals in the trash just because the government disagrees with me?
I don't think so. I will not change my opinion based on the the ill-thought out opinions of others. Now, you might be trying to say that it is "legally" defined as theft; and if this is what you're saying, then this might very well be so. But the morality of it all is another matter.
It amazes me how most slashdot readers react to things without even thinking about it. The point is we DON'T know a lot about the universe, but if we assume we know a little more than we can prove, then we can put that knowledge to work and actually test it.
It amazes me how most slashdot readers react to things without even thinking about it. The point is we DON'T know a lot about the universe, but if we assume we know a little more than we can prove, then we can put that knowledge to work and actually test it.
That's odd....I seem to be experiencing a bit of deja-vu. Uh oh.... they've changed The Matrix!!
(Looks around all paranoid-like)
Yeah, I had the same problem with my computer (Mandrake 7.0 + NVidia GeForce II MX). I just had to download the drivers off NVidia's website; after that X started up just fine.
Maybe this is drifting off topic a little, but I found these two links extremely helpful when trying to solve the problem you mentioned.
The burden of proof is on the plantiff to prove that the crime took place. Sure, *maybe* Shapeshifter did it. But we can't prosecute people on maybes. At least, I don't think we should.
void main() is not illegal! At least it didn't used to be. I know for a fact it works with TC++ 3.0 for does and all of
microsoft's compilers. I believe that if you are usinig true C++ then you have to have some return code, but I'm
not sure
He's right. Even though many compilers accept it, it's illegal according to the ANSI/ISO standards. I understand the misconception though, because ALL my teachers at college use void main(). I didn't realize the truth until i started reading Newsgroup FAQs who referenced the ANSI/ISO standards. In fact, i have BOOKS that use void main()! All the online literature i've read shows those books as incorrect, however.
Okay, I attend Westark Community College in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Since our college here has recently inflicted this program upon us, I have a few things to say about it.
Slow! It probably takes about 15 seconds for every page to load. No matter how many times you load a page, it always takes about 15 seconds. Cache'ing of pictures doesn't help.
They have actually taken away our old POP mailboxes and given us Pipeline ones. So, anytime we want to check our e-mail, we have to go to the website, wait 15 seconds for the main page to load, click on about 3 or 4 links, each of which always take about 15 or so seconds to load, and then wait for the dumb java-based e-mail window to pop up (yet another 15 seconds). This of course amounts to an enormous waste of time.
I suspect it is a requirement for the teachers to use the web-based e-mail a lot, because every teacher I had really encouraged us to use it. Most of my friends said their teachers also tried selling it. All teachers are sending out lots of e-mails to their classes regarding class stuff. This requires students to go to the site daily, just to check their mail, especially if they want to keep up with the class. Several of my professors have professed frustration at the slowness, yet they continue to use it daily. I'm pretty sure this is because they are required to.
NO forwarding option! You can not have your mail forwarded to your home e-mail account. You MUST visit the site daily.
This website is 95% external links. Buy an HP Computer! Buy this! Buy that! There are also lots of external links to educational databases, stuff that you might want to look at if your researching something. But hey, if i wanted to go to another site, i would have went there. Give me some useful content. Something that a college might have to offer. Its really a bloated design....finding the content you want is like searching for a jewel in a humongous sea of little blue underlines.
I don't mind the ads so much, its just that this whole system is designed not to help the student, but instead to sell them things. Maybe I don't want to spend 20 minutes checking my mail each day..maybe i want to spend them studying.
Anyway, on an unrelated note, yesterday i noticed that one of the e-mails I'd received was sent to "everyone@collegename.edu". Thinking it was too easy to be true, i sent a limerick to the address (really short rhyming dirty poem). Turns out my limerick went to ALL the faculty! Had I been thinking clearly, I would have sent it anonymously, and probably would have sent an essay on why pipeline sucks. As it stands now, my Pipeline access was promptly suspended after a chat with the Dean today. Ah well....i guess i really deserved that. (if any of the faculty read this, i profusely apologize!) I certainly won't miss Pipeline, though.
Justice's Colgate counters the FBI already has laws it must follow to intercept e-mail. "What we don't want is a debate over the government's inherent authority to conduct electronic surveillance. If researchers find there are issues that have to be addressed, we can do that," he says.
They may not want a debate, but they sure as heck are going to get one. When did a citizen's right to privacy become so radical an issue, anyway?
I agree with the principle of "punish the crime, not the tool," but it's not that simple here. DVD-CCA developed CSS and licenses it, just like Microsoft developed Windows and licenses it to people. If you reverse engineer their tool and distribute the source code, you're violating their intellectual property.
I thought that reverse engineering was legal? Well i'm not exactly a lawyer, that's just the impression I had.
Besides that, an encryption algorithm basically comes down to a mathematical formula. Why does the government allow the DVD-CCA to license a mathematical formula? I mean, can i get 2 + 2 = 4 licensed?
Ideas should just not be considered property -- and it shouldn't be illegal to disseminate them.
Yes, but judges aren't there to apply common sense, they're there to apply the law. It's true, no pirating was actually occurring, and MPAA was just conjuring this image of a future where all movies are pirated in order to show the court theoretical damages. That's bullshit. But legally MPAA was still right.
I guess we agree there. But shouldn't the laws be founded in common sense? When the law doesn't make sense, the judges should rule them unconstitutional.
Not true, personal character is often pivotal to a case, and intent was pivotal to this one. If they had been legitimate cryptography researchers and their intent was to analyze CSS to aid in further encoding schemes, then they would have been legally in the right. But if they were just a newsletter for hackers and skript kiddies, then they were legally in the wrong. The judge (and I) decided they were the latter.
How exactly do you get to be a "legitimate" cryptography researcher with a ruling like this? 2600 hasn't committed any other crimes at all. As far as intent, their intent was to publish the information because they found it interesting. In that sense, they were effectively serving the cryptography community by telling them(us)about it. Hmm.....maybe the definition of "legitimate cyroptography researcher" is WAY too fuzzy.
What they've stated is not neccessarily the truth. The code was written for Windows, not Linux, which is why the judge was so skeptical.
The code was written for Windows because, at the time, Linux did not support the filesystem used on DVDs. DeCSS was merely a stepping stone in the eventual creation of the DVD Linux player. The assertion that the purpose of developing DeCSS wan't for eventually making a Linux player is just silly.
But even if that was their intent, it's still not fair use, it's infringment upon DVD-CCA's product (CSS) and violation of the DMCA.
Well, this law is wrong. IMO, legal is not always equal to moral. How can we have fair use if all content is behind encryption?
The point is that it was illegal to crack the encryption, and illegal to distribute the tool for doing so. If anyone doubts that it was really illegal, check out the DMCA.
It should not be illegal to crack encryption, it should be illegal to pirate movies. Pirating movies is the problem, and that is the problem that should be dealt with. The fact that someone cracks encryption, or even has in their possession a tool for cracking encryption, does not mean they pirated anything! Why is 2600 being held responsible for an action that another individual may or may not do?
I believe that the MPAA should go after people who actually pirated movies. That is my idea of common sense. None of the defendants in this case have ever pirated a movie!
It's not the corp's responsibility to have good crypto anymore than its your responsibility to wear Kevlar. If you crack their crypto, just like if you shoot somebody, you're breaking the law. The crypto is only there to assure them some protection from lawbreakers.
So, should it be illegal for me to shoot a hole in a suit of Kevlar, or should it be illegal for me to assassinate someone?
Computer code is not only speech, but also a tool. It's a weird aspect of computer programs that doesn't really exist anywhere else. You're writing instructions for the processor, but those instructions can also be used as a tool by someone else. The solution should be to enforce personal responsibility, not security through obscurity.
He goes on to complain about how he was treated unfairly due to 2600's reputation. They earned the reputation. They're subversives, plain and simple.
You're right that they earned their reputation, and I doubt they're ashamed of it. But this is a court of law! It is supposed to be objective Cases should be judged based on the facts, not on personal character.
Actually it does matter. As I've already quoted, the DMCA makes it perfectly acceptable to crack encryption for research purposes. But the judge looked at the situation and determined that that was not why DeCSS was written.
Yeah, and he was wrong. The creaters of DeCSS have stated that the intent of the program was a step in creating a DVD player for the Linux operating system. That's not piracy, that's fair use.
I can't help but wonder if the internet can even survive its reaming by Corporate America.
In fact, why don't we make our official name 'C.S.' instead? Not the 'United States', but he 'Corporate States'! I mean...that should be the official name! Why not be honest about the whole thing? We all know who makes the decisions in this country, and it ain't 'the people'. Aw, hell, i'm moving to the Czech Republic.
Slashdot Mirror
So, I should just toss my morals in the trash just because the government disagrees with me?
I don't think so. I will not change my opinion based on the the ill-thought out opinions of others. Now, you might be trying to say that it is "legally" defined as theft; and if this is what you're saying, then this might very well be so. But the morality of it all is another matter.
-- juju
Dude, that was like 2 years ago! Can't we just occasionally cut them some slack? :)
-- juju
Has anyone ever seen the movie 'Roger and Me'? This sounds like some of the footage Michael Moore probably used in the film!
Achievement USA 1955 Running time: 10:45
Producer: Sound Masters
Sponsor: General Motors Corp.
General Motors celebrates production of 50 millionth automobile with a parade through Flint, Michigan.
-- juju
It amazes me how most slashdot readers react to things without even thinking about it. The point is we DON'T know a lot about the universe, but if we assume we know a little more than we can prove, then we can put that knowledge to work and actually test it.
It amazes me how most slashdot readers react to things without even thinking about it. The point is we DON'T know a lot about the universe, but if we assume we know a little more than we can prove, then we can put that knowledge to work and actually test it.
That's odd....I seem to be experiencing a bit of deja-vu. Uh oh.... they've changed The Matrix!! (Looks around all paranoid-like)
Yeah, I had the same problem with my computer (Mandrake 7.0 + NVidia GeForce II MX). I just had to download the drivers off NVidia's website; after that X started up just fine.
4 .shtml
t ml
Maybe this is drifting off topic a little, but I found these two links extremely helpful when trying to solve the problem you mentioned.
http://www.thedukeofurl.org/reviews/misc/3dlinux/
http://www.evil3d.net/articles/linux_nv4/index.sh
The burden of proof is on the plantiff to prove that the crime took place. Sure, *maybe* Shapeshifter did it. But we can't prosecute people on maybes. At least, I don't think we should.
-- juju
void main() is not illegal! At least it didn't used to be. I know for a fact it works with TC++ 3.0 for does and all of microsoft's compilers. I believe that if you are usinig true C++ then you have to have some return code, but I'm not sure
He's right. Even though many compilers accept it, it's illegal according to the ANSI/ISO standards. I understand the misconception though, because ALL my teachers at college use void main(). I didn't realize the truth until i started reading Newsgroup FAQs who referenced the ANSI/ISO standards. In fact, i have BOOKS that use void main()! All the online literature i've read shows those books as incorrect, however.
This C FAQ talks about it:
http://home.att.net/~jackklein/ctips 01. html
Okay, I attend Westark Community College in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Since our college here has recently inflicted this program upon us, I have a few things to say about it.
I don't mind the ads so much, its just that this whole system is designed not to help the student, but instead to sell them things. Maybe I don't want to spend 20 minutes checking my mail each day..maybe i want to spend them studying.
Anyway, on an unrelated note, yesterday i noticed that one of the e-mails I'd received was sent to "everyone@collegename.edu". Thinking it was too easy to be true, i sent a limerick to the address (really short rhyming dirty poem). Turns out my limerick went to ALL the faculty! Had I been thinking clearly, I would have sent it anonymously, and probably would have sent an essay on why pipeline sucks. As it stands now, my Pipeline access was promptly suspended after a chat with the Dean today. Ah well....i guess i really deserved that. (if any of the faculty read this, i profusely apologize!) I certainly won't miss Pipeline, though.
-- Juju
Justice's Colgate counters the FBI already has laws it must follow to intercept e-mail. "What we don't want is a debate over the government's inherent authority to conduct electronic surveillance. If researchers find there are issues that have to be addressed, we can do that," he says.
They may not want a debate, but they sure as heck are going to get one. When did a citizen's right to privacy become so radical an issue, anyway?
I agree with the principle of "punish the crime, not the tool," but it's not that simple here. DVD-CCA developed CSS and licenses it, just like Microsoft developed Windows and licenses it to people. If you reverse engineer their tool and distribute the source code, you're violating their intellectual property.
I thought that reverse engineering was legal? Well i'm not exactly a lawyer, that's just the impression I had.
Besides that, an encryption algorithm basically comes down to a mathematical formula. Why does the government allow the DVD-CCA to license a mathematical formula? I mean, can i get 2 + 2 = 4 licensed?
Ideas should just not be considered property -- and it shouldn't be illegal to disseminate them.
Yes, but judges aren't there to apply common sense, they're there to apply the law. It's true, no pirating was actually occurring, and MPAA was just conjuring this image of a future where all movies are pirated in order to show the court theoretical damages. That's bullshit. But legally MPAA was still right.
I guess we agree there. But shouldn't the laws be founded in common sense? When the law doesn't make sense, the judges should rule them unconstitutional.
Not true, personal character is often pivotal to a case, and intent was pivotal to this one. If they had been legitimate cryptography researchers and their intent was to analyze CSS to aid in further encoding schemes, then they would have been legally in the right. But if they were just a newsletter for hackers and skript kiddies, then they were legally in the wrong. The judge (and I) decided they were the latter.
How exactly do you get to be a "legitimate" cryptography researcher with a ruling like this? 2600 hasn't committed any other crimes at all. As far as intent, their intent was to publish the information because they found it interesting. In that sense, they were effectively serving the cryptography community by telling them(us)about it. Hmm.....maybe the definition of "legitimate cyroptography researcher" is WAY too fuzzy.
What they've stated is not neccessarily the truth. The code was written for Windows, not Linux, which is why the judge was so skeptical.
The code was written for Windows because, at the time, Linux did not support the filesystem used on DVDs. DeCSS was merely a stepping stone in the eventual creation of the DVD Linux player. The assertion that the purpose of developing DeCSS wan't for eventually making a Linux player is just silly.
But even if that was their intent, it's still not fair use, it's infringment upon DVD-CCA's product (CSS) and violation of the DMCA.
Well, this law is wrong. IMO, legal is not always equal to moral. How can we have fair use if all content is behind encryption?
Get DeCSS!
-- Blackthorne
The point is that it was illegal to crack the encryption, and illegal to distribute the tool for doing so. If anyone doubts that it was really illegal, check out the DMCA.
It should not be illegal to crack encryption, it should be illegal to pirate movies. Pirating movies is the problem, and that is the problem that should be dealt with. The fact that someone cracks encryption, or even has in their possession a tool for cracking encryption, does not mean they pirated anything! Why is 2600 being held responsible for an action that another individual may or may not do?
I believe that the MPAA should go after people who actually pirated movies. That is my idea of common sense. None of the defendants in this case have ever pirated a movie!
It's not the corp's responsibility to have good crypto anymore than its your responsibility to wear Kevlar. If you crack their crypto, just like if you shoot somebody, you're breaking the law. The crypto is only there to assure them some protection from lawbreakers.
So, should it be illegal for me to shoot a hole in a suit of Kevlar, or should it be illegal for me to assassinate someone?
Computer code is not only speech, but also a tool. It's a weird aspect of computer programs that doesn't really exist anywhere else. You're writing instructions for the processor, but those instructions can also be used as a tool by someone else. The solution should be to enforce personal responsibility, not security through obscurity.
He goes on to complain about how he was treated unfairly due to 2600's reputation. They earned the reputation. They're subversives, plain and simple.
You're right that they earned their reputation, and I doubt they're ashamed of it. But this is a court of law! It is supposed to be objective Cases should be judged based on the facts, not on personal character.
Actually it does matter. As I've already quoted, the DMCA makes it perfectly acceptable to crack encryption for research purposes. But the judge looked at the situation and determined that that was not why DeCSS was written.
Yeah, and he was wrong. The creaters of DeCSS have stated that the intent of the program was a step in creating a DVD player for the Linux operating system. That's not piracy, that's fair use.
-- Blackthorne
I can't help but wonder if the internet can even survive its reaming by Corporate America.
In fact, why don't we make our official name 'C.S.' instead? Not the 'United States', but he 'Corporate States'! I mean...that should be the official name! Why not be honest about the whole thing? We all know who makes the decisions in this country, and it ain't 'the people'. Aw, hell, i'm moving to the Czech Republic.
Get DeCSS!
-- Blackthorne
For the record, there is a nice mirror of cryptome at: https://www.ccc.de/mirrors/cryptome.org/ I am surprised that there is not more about this in the traditional hacker media.. this seems like a huge deal to me..