>No, we're talking about what platforms are >supported via technical resources and teaching.
What about distance learning? What about courseware? What about video files? What about the teachers who require you to submit your papers in word format? What about the powerpoint slides that dont render on any viewer other that microsoft.
>>You are being excluded from nothing. You are, I was. Some schools have the requirement of having windows to take part in at all.
>>They have no obligation to provide it on their >>hardware just because you think they should.
of course not.
>>If you want it to be mandated, better go into >>politics. Yes of course. The www.fsedu.org project will get politically active some day.
The issue is that the schools are *selling* the basic rights that you *have* by nature, before they are *taken* from you by the EULA.
I wrote: >>What if taypayer money is being spent on your >>rights being taken away.
PhoenixFlare Wrote: >If you're in high school, you're either not paying >taxes at all, or paying an extremely small amount, >which would give you almost zero grounds to >complain on that point.
Again, you are looking at it on the micro level. Please take a step back and look at it on the Macro level.
Think about the equasion:
The basic Rights of millions of people sold, Millions of tax dollars go to microsoft, May schools benefit on the short term, long term result is that free software does not have a chance to gain foothold with the EULA and Fileformats protected by licenses.
Who is losing? the students, the society. Who is gaining? microsoft, and the few people in the government and schools who are getting lobbied or payed off.
The department of justice found microsoft guilty for abusing their office software and file formats for good reason.
>>My point was that the zealous worrying about what >>platform your school supports is really secondary >>to what you should be doing- getting an education.
Supports? We are talking about what platforms are being Excluded here.
The issue is that the schools are *selling* the basic rights that you by nature, before they are taking from you.
>It sounds like you have issues more with the >concept of non-free software, not Microsoft's >license agreement specifcally. Plain and simple, >you can only do certain things with certain >software, and that's just the way the world works >now.
I have problems with the way that microsoft is turning the schools into henchmen under the guise of giving you cheap software.
>It seemed like you might not be an American. >Some countries have different policies than the >US does. That's all. Yes, I live in Germany, but am an American.
I wrote >>>I dont want to use their Products. Unfortunally >>>they have corrupted so many schools that it is >>>impossible for students to avoid using their >>>product or other non-free software.
You Wrote: >Until (perhaps) the day monetary systems are >abolished, there will always be non-free >software. Even if they have to use non-free >software, there's absolutely nothing preventing >them for using free software themselves as well.
What is preventing them are the EULA on the software and file format. Basically there are some non-free applications like flash, java, powerpoint etc where the EULA coupled with the non-free licenses make taking part in a course that requires them very difficult if not impossible.
Students have the right to not use non-free software. Tax money should not be spent on taking that right away.
>> Then, frankly, find a different school or become >>more flexible What if your school is high school? What if taypayer money is being spent on your rights being taken away.
>>Religious debates of platforms? You are used to talking to much stupider people if you bring in arguments like that.
PhoenixFlare--
I am sorry dude,but you are making yourself look pretty silly with stupid stuff like that.
Microsft has been found guilty of abusing this so called standard. The proposal from the justice department was to publish the file format.
The issue is the license that prevents you from reverse engineering these files, you are signing your rights away with the EULA. The schools are being corrupted and turned into the pushers and enforcers of this license that is designed to take away your rights.
You might not care about your rights that you are losing, because it does not affect you personally. But when you look at the macro level of the total effect you will see there is large effect.
Your rights to fair use of the software, to look inside the binaries, to build compatible software.
I am an American, what does that have to do with it.
I dont want to use their Products. Unfortunally they have corrupted so many schools that it is impossible for students to avoid using their product or other non-free software.
REDHAT is taking away students rights as well
on
Big Company on Campus
·
· Score: 0, Flamebait
http://www.advogato.org/article/698.html
It is amazing that redhat have such a restrictive license on thier courseware software, considering how many good courseware projects there are. I find no mention of freedom or the gnu free documentation license on the red hat "open source" educational site. It makes me wonder how good this education is.
Digital Think is the exclusive provider of Red Hat eLearning. http://www.digitalthink.com/catalog/license.html "Licensee shall not, without the prior written permission of DIGITALTHINK, nor permit anyone else to copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble or otherwise reduce the Courseware to a human perceivable form, or to modify, network, rent, lease, loan, distribute, or create derivative works based upon the Courseware or the documentation in whole or in part."
Many schools have policies that effectivly prevent you from being able to study only using free software. They are forcing you to sign away your rights.
It is not only the monitoring clause, but the fact that you are being forced to accept file formats that have been designed to supports microsofts illegal practices.
see my post here: http://www.redhat.com/archives/open-source-now- lis t/2003-August/msg00014.html
I forgot the best quote: Here is an HTML version of the googlecache: http://www.google.de/search?q=cache:TM2QXwgnzgE J:p lanet.tvi.cc.nm.us/cit/helpdesk/Microsoft_Campus_A greement.pdf+%22Master+Campus+Agreement+Terms+and+ Conditions%22&hl=de&ie=UTF-8
" 3. All the institution owned or leased machines that are running the software You do not necessarily need to keep records on all users who access the software on institution owned or leased machines unless there is a possibility that unauthorized (non-academic) users may have access. If that's a possibility, the institution should keep records on all users who access institution owned or leased machines. Proper record keeping of your licensed users is important and required per your agreement with Microsoft. You will need to determine the best method for record keeping. You may keep hard-copy records or an electronic database. Most institutions maintain a database of faculty and staff users as well as a separate student database, which is tracked via a Student Identification number, if they have the Student Option. "
So big brother is now watching you.
So, the college now has to watch the student even more, and turn them in to microsoft to save themselvs legal fees:
"You must keep all usual and proper records relating to the running of the software by your users. We reserve the right to audit you during the licensed period and for a period of one year thereafter, provided that such audit(s) will be conducted during normal business hours and in such a manner as not to interfere unreasonably with your operations. Additionally, you must use reasonable efforts to make your users aware of the terms and conditions upon which they are allowed to run the Software.
Accordingly, you must: a. Notify all users in advance of running the software that: (i) their use of the software is subject to the terms of your agreement, including but not limited to limitations of liability, disclaimer of warranties and exclusion of remedies; (ii) they are allowed to run the software only during the licensed period; and (iii) if your agreement is terminated, you do not submit a subscription order form prior to the expiration of the licensed period, or if you purchase perpetual licenses for the software, then all software run under your agreement must be deleted when the licensed period expires or is otherwise earlier terminated, whichever is first; and, b. Periodically publish in an institution-wide publication and applicable web sites either the then current license rights or a reference to the location (either physical or on a computer network) where the they can be reviewed; and c. Notify us immediately if you are aware of any actual or potential violation of your agreement; and, d. Provide all reasonable assistance and cooperation as requested by us to investigate and remedy any unauthorized use of the software by your users. If you comply with this section, you will not be held responsible of your students' failure to comply with the terms of your agreement."
>>
So all these long haired linux users have to be reported to the microsoft police to save on the lawyer bill.
What are you selling for this this money? Are you selling your rights away? Subjecting yourself to possibly illegal observation?
Here are some selections from the MS Student License Aggreement: http://www.microsoft.com/education/?ID=CAStuden tOp tion " Perpetual Student Use Rights Upon graduation, students licensed under the Student Option are granted perpetual use rights for the selected Campus Agreement products.
All other students are only licensed to use the software for the subscription term. These licenses are non-perpetual (meaning the student does not own the license). Upon leaving the institution (besides graduation) or expiration of the subscription term, students are required to remove the software. Your institution is responsible for communicating the appropriate use rights to students when distributing the software. Guidelines for facilitating compliance are outlined in the Master Campus Agreement Terms and Conditions. To the extent that your institution follows these guidelines, you will not be held responsible for students' failure to remove the software. "
> THis is the kernel of the problem. Now the university is the henchman of microsoft.
Microsoft and Redhat are buying students rights!
on
Big Company on Campus
·
· Score: 1
The FSEDU Project has been been founded to protect the students rights from predatory companies and universities.
1. You have the right to use free software instead of proprietary software for all school-related tasks. The school shall not impede this right in any way.
2. You have the right to demand open file formats:
2.1. Allow sincere choice of software/operating system
2.2. Openly specified and freely implementable
2.3. Work with completely Free systems
3. You have the right to publish your homework assignments as you see fit, for profit or gratis.
4. You have the right to publish what you learn, in your own words, for profit or gratis.
Not only Microsoft is taking away students rights, but also our beloved REDHAT as well
Little do people know but the Microsoft licenses have clauses in them that require the schools to monitor the student and report them to microsoft if they suspect them of violating the EULA. This is probably illegal in Europe.
Here are some selections from the MS Student License Aggreement: http://www.microsoft.com/education/?ID=CAStuden tOp tion " Perpetual Student Use Rights Upon graduation, students licensed under the Student Option are granted perpetual use rights for the selected Campus Agreement products.
All other students are only licensed to use the software for the subscription term. These licenses are non-perpetual (meaning the student does not own the license). Upon leaving the institution (besides graduation) or expiration of the subscription term, students are required to remove the software. Your institution is responsible for communicating the appropriate use rights to students when distributing the software. Guidelines for facilitating compliance are outlined in the Master Campus Agreement Terms and Conditions. To the extent that your institution follows these guidelines, you will not be held responsible for students' failure to remove the software. " > THis is the kernel of the problem. Now the university is the henchman of microsoft.
The worst thing is that taxpayer money is being spent on taking the basic rights of the students way.
http://introspector.sf.net is working to be the next generation free software tool for reverse engineering and UML diagramming. We are working on interfaces into the GCC, dotGNU C#/net, Perl and yes even DIA and EMACS.
By the way, CrazyBeans will convert petal files into XMI.
Please help us make a free replacement for the Rat. Rose.
Slashdot Mirror
>No, we're talking about what platforms are >supported via technical resources and teaching.
What about distance learning?
What about courseware? What about video files? What about the teachers who require you to submit your papers in word format? What about the powerpoint slides that dont render on any viewer other that microsoft.
>>You are being excluded from nothing.
You are, I was. Some schools have the requirement of having windows to take part in at all.
>>They have no obligation to provide it on their >>hardware just because you think they should.
of course not.
>>If you want it to be mandated, better go into >>politics.
Yes of course. The www.fsedu.org project will get politically active some day.
The issue is that the schools are *selling* the basic rights that you *have* by nature, before they are *taken* from you by the EULA.
I wrote :
:
:
>>What if taypayer money is being spent on your >>rights being taken away.
PhoenixFlare Wrote
>If you're in high school, you're either not paying >taxes at all, or paying an extremely small amount, >which would give you almost zero grounds to >complain on that point.
Again, you are looking at it on the micro level. Please take a step back and look at it on the Macro level.
Think about the equasion
The basic Rights of millions of people sold,
Millions of tax dollars go to microsoft,
May schools benefit on the short term,
long term result is that free software does not have a chance to gain foothold with the EULA and Fileformats protected by licenses.
Who is losing? the students, the society.
Who is gaining? microsoft, and the few people in the government and schools who are getting lobbied or payed off.
The department of justice found microsoft guilty for abusing their office software and file formats for good reason.
>>My point was that the zealous worrying about what >>platform your school supports is really secondary >>to what you should be doing- getting an education.
Supports? We are talking about what platforms are being Excluded here.
The issue is that the schools are *selling* the basic rights that you by nature, before they are taking from you.
Bad spellers of the world : UNTIE!!
>It sounds like you have issues more with the >concept of non-free software, not Microsoft's >license agreement specifcally. Plain and simple, >you can only do certain things with certain >software, and that's just the way the world works >now.
:
I have problems with the way that microsoft is turning the schools into henchmen under the guise of giving you cheap software.
>It seemed like you might not be an American. >Some countries have different policies than the >US does. That's all.
Yes, I live in Germany, but am an American.
I wrote
>>>I dont want to use their Products. Unfortunally >>>they have corrupted so many schools that it is >>>impossible for students to avoid using their >>>product or other non-free software.
You Wrote
>Until (perhaps) the day monetary systems are >abolished, there will always be non-free >software. Even if they have to use non-free >software, there's absolutely nothing preventing >them for using free software themselves as well.
What is preventing them are the EULA on the software and file format. Basically there are some non-free applications like flash, java, powerpoint etc where the EULA coupled with the non-free licenses make taking part in a course that requires them very difficult if not impossible.
Students have the right to not use non-free software. Tax money should not be spent on taking that right away.
>> Then, frankly, find a different school or become >>more flexible
What if your school is high school? What if taypayer money is being spent on your rights being taken away.
>>Religious debates of platforms?
You are used to talking to much stupider people if you bring in arguments like that.
PhoenixFlare--
I am sorry dude,but you are making yourself look pretty silly with stupid stuff like that.
Microsft has been found guilty of abusing this so called standard. The proposal from the justice department was to publish the file format.
The issue is the license that prevents you from reverse engineering these files, you are signing your rights away with the EULA. The schools are being corrupted and turned into the pushers and enforcers of this license that is designed to take away your rights.
You might not care about your rights that you are losing, because it does not affect you personally. But when you look at the macro level of the total effect you will see there is large effect.
Your right to choose to use only free software.
Your rights to fair use of the software, to look inside the binaries, to build compatible software.
I am an American, what does that have to do with it.
I dont want to use their Products. Unfortunally they have corrupted so many schools that it is impossible for students to avoid using their product or other non-free software.
http://www.advogato.org/article/698.html
It is amazing that redhat have such a restrictive license on thier courseware software, considering how many good courseware projects there are. I find no mention of freedom or the gnu free documentation license on the red hat "open source" educational site. It makes me wonder how good this education is.
Digital Think is the exclusive provider of Red Hat eLearning. http://www.digitalthink.com/catalog/license.html
"Licensee shall not, without the prior written permission of DIGITALTHINK, nor permit anyone else to copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble or otherwise reduce the Courseware to a human perceivable form, or to modify, network, rent, lease, loan, distribute, or create derivative works based upon the Courseware or the documentation in whole or in part."
Also, Please consider this :
Many schools have policies that effectivly prevent you from being able to study only using free software. They are forcing you to sign away your rights.
It is not only the monitoring clause, but the fact that you are being forced to accept file formats that have been designed to supports microsofts illegal practices.
It is not the issue if they are execercizing this, but the fact that your rights are being sold.
Did you have to sign away your rights to get these copies?
l is t/2003-August/msg00014.html
http://www.redhat.com/archives/open-source-now-
Your tone is very nasty cant you be a little nicer?
see my post here :- lis t/2003-August/msg00014.html
: :E J:p lanet.tvi.cc.nm.us/cit/helpdesk/Microsoft_Campus_A greement.pdf+%22Master+Campus+Agreement+Terms+and+ Conditions%22&hl=de&ie=UTF-8
:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/open-source-now
I forgot the best quote
Here is an HTML version of the googlecache
http://www.google.de/search?q=cache:TM2QXwgnzg
"
3. All the institution owned or leased machines that are running the
software
You do not necessarily need to keep records on all users who access the
software on institution owned or leased machines unless there is a
possibility that unauthorized (non-academic) users may have access. If
that's a possibility, the institution should keep records on all users
who access institution owned or leased machines.
Proper record keeping of your licensed users is important and required
per your agreement with Microsoft. You will need to determine the best
method for record keeping. You may keep hard-copy records or an
electronic database. Most institutions maintain a database of faculty
and staff users as well as a separate student database, which is
tracked via a Student Identification number, if they have the Student
Option.
"
So big brother is now watching you.
So, the college now has to watch the student even more, and turn them
in to microsoft to save themselvs legal fees
"You must keep all usual and proper records relating to the running of
the software by your users. We reserve the right to audit you during
the licensed period and for a period of one year thereafter, provided
that such audit(s) will be conducted during normal business hours and
in such a manner as not to interfere unreasonably with your operations.
Additionally, you must use reasonable efforts to make your users aware
of the terms and conditions upon which they are allowed to run the
Software.
Accordingly, you must:
a. Notify all users in advance of running the software that: (i) their
use of the software is subject to the terms of your agreement,
including but not limited to limitations of liability, disclaimer of
warranties and exclusion of remedies; (ii) they are allowed to run
the software only during the licensed period; and (iii) if your
agreement is terminated,
you do not submit a subscription order form prior to the expiration of
the licensed
period, or if you purchase perpetual licenses for the software, then
all software run
under your agreement must be deleted when the licensed period expires
or is
otherwise earlier terminated, whichever is first; and,
b. Periodically publish in an institution-wide publication and
applicable web sites either
the then current license rights or a reference to the location (either
physical or on a
computer network) where the they can be reviewed; and
c. Notify us immediately if you are aware of any actual or potential
violation of your
agreement; and,
d. Provide all reasonable assistance and cooperation as requested by us
to investigate and remedy any unauthorized use of the software by your
users.
If you comply with this section, you will not be held responsible of
your students' failure to comply with the terms of your agreement."
>>
So all these long haired linux users have to be reported to the
microsoft police to save on the lawyer bill.
What are you selling for this this money?
:n tOp tion
Are you selling your rights away? Subjecting yourself to possibly illegal observation?
Here are some selections from the MS Student License Aggreement
http://www.microsoft.com/education/?ID=CAStude
"
Perpetual Student Use Rights
Upon graduation, students licensed under the Student Option are granted
perpetual use rights for the selected Campus Agreement products.
All other students are only licensed to use the software for the
subscription term. These licenses are non-perpetual (meaning the
student does not own the license). Upon leaving the institution
(besides graduation) or expiration of the subscription term, students
are required to remove the software. Your institution is responsible
for communicating the appropriate use rights to students when
distributing the software. Guidelines for facilitating compliance are
outlined in the Master Campus Agreement Terms and Conditions. To the
extent that your institution follows these guidelines, you will not be
held responsible for students' failure to remove the software.
"
>
THis is the kernel of the problem. Now the university is the henchman
of microsoft.
The FSEDU Project has been been founded to protect the students rights from predatory companies and universities.
:n tOp tion
We have developed a students bill of rights
here
1. You have the right to use free software instead of proprietary software for all school-related tasks. The school shall not impede this right in any way.
2. You have the right to demand open file formats:
2.1. Allow sincere choice of software/operating system
2.2. Openly specified and freely implementable
2.3. Work with completely Free systems
3. You have the right to publish your homework assignments as you see fit, for profit or gratis.
4. You have the right to publish what you learn, in your own words, for profit or gratis.
Not only Microsoft is taking away students rights, but also our beloved REDHAT as well
See my open letter to REDHAT here REDHATLETTER
and HERE
Little do people know but the Microsoft licenses
have clauses in them that require the schools to monitor the student and report them to microsoft if they suspect them of violating the EULA. This is probably illegal in Europe.
Here are some selections from the MS Student License Aggreement
http://www.microsoft.com/education/?ID=CAStude
"
Perpetual Student Use Rights
Upon graduation, students licensed under the Student Option are granted
perpetual use rights for the selected Campus Agreement products.
All other students are only licensed to use the software for the
subscription term. These licenses are non-perpetual (meaning the
student does not own the license). Upon leaving the institution
(besides graduation) or expiration of the subscription term, students
are required to remove the software. Your institution is responsible
for communicating the appropriate use rights to students when
distributing the software. Guidelines for facilitating compliance are
outlined in the Master Campus Agreement Terms and Conditions. To the
extent that your institution follows these guidelines, you will not be
held responsible for students' failure to remove the software.
"
>
THis is the kernel of the problem. Now the university is the henchman
of microsoft.
The worst thing is that taxpayer money is being spent on taking the basic rights of the students way.
http://www.sco.com/2003forum/sponsors.html
It seems that SCO has really big problems with sponsors. The sponsor page is done.
FreeSoftwareInEducation WIKI
The Free Software in Education project seeks to enable, advocate, and defend Free Software usage in schools from Kindergarten to university.
It is looking for members from all over the world.
One of the goals is to define and defend the rights of students to use free software.
Please just join up and tell us about your experience with Free Software at school.
The Free Software in education Project :
is looking for your help
FreeSoftwareInEducation Wiki
We are looking for new members, and are collecting stories about your experience with free software in Education.
http://introspector.sf.net is working to be the next generation free software tool for reverse engineering and UML diagramming.
We are working on interfaces into the GCC, dotGNU C#/net, Perl and yes even DIA and EMACS.
By the way, CrazyBeans will convert petal files into XMI.
Please help us make a free replacement for the Rat. Rose.
mike