CollegeLinux Released to the Public

YOU ARE SO FIRED! writes "It seems that the Swiss Robert Kennedy College (with the aptly named website) has released CollegeLinux, a Linux distribution based off of Slackware, to the public. If only my employees could've used this in school - I wouldn't have to fire them so much! See the interview with the dean of the school for more information."

Comments

Been on distrowatch for awhile

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been available for download for at least two weeks now, maybe three.

Re:Been on distrowatch for awhile

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, so it was only a week, 2-24-03 was the date of the announcement on DW.

Will it ever stop?

[mschoolbus]

Linux is great and all but I feel half the reason it isn't doing as well as it could is because there are just so many distros in general. I know the nature of Linux is about choice and open software but this hurts Linux in itself. Why don't hardware companies put out Linux drivers as much as they do Mac drivers? Because they expect certain things within the Mac OS, not everything is different from system to system, which makes it easier and more attractive to companies to write Linux code and drivers...

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Tyler Eaves]

Erm, pretty much all driver code should be in the kernel anyways...

(That aside, all the distro waste was one of the reasons I switched to FreeBSD)

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

WHAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa? That's insane. You'd have to recompile the kernel everytime somethin new came out.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not writing drivers because of the number of Linux distributions would make a crappy excuse. The Linux kernel doesn't vary that much between distro's (and in the ways it does, it shouldn't matter much). The userland varies a small amount (just enough to be annoying for some low level tasks :P), but that doesn't affect the majority of drivers.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[jchristopher]

Yep, you'll probably get slammed with "-1" for saying it, but you're absolutely right.

Having so much effort wasted on many different distributions is stupid. Can you imagine what type of improvements could have been made to Linux in general with the programming time invested in maintaining many different distributions?

I mean absolutely no offense to the developers working on College Linux. But would you trade College Linux for a working way to change resolution on the fly, reliable working sound interfaces, simple dual monitor setup, and other enhancements that users have come to expect from other operating systems? I would.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

They're called kernel modules. If you use them, you might have to compile a module but not the whole thing.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

a working way to change resolution on the fly

It's implemented in XFree 4.3. Besides, resolution wasn't the problem (it could be changed, very quickly and easily), root window size was.

reliable working sound interfaces

Look into MAS if the currently 'common' interfaces don't work, I think you'll like it (MAS should become more common as time passes and it replaces the other sound servers).

Re:Will it ever stop?

[jchristopher]

Look into MAS if the currently 'common' interfaces don't work, I think you'll like it (MAS should become more common as time passes and it replaces the other sound servers).

LOL, I think that's sort of the point - the end user shouldn't have to think about interfaces, sound servers, and replacing one with the other!

Re:Will it ever stop?

[I didn't]

FYI there's Project UDI (Uniform Driver Interface).

From their FAQ:

Like other device driver interfaces used in Operating Systems today, UDI defines an architecture and a set of APIs for use between the driver and the surrounding system. This allows drivers and OSes to be developed independently. UDI goes a step further and provides APIs that are OS-neutral and platform-neutral, allowing multiple OSes and platforms to use the exact same driver.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Billly Gates]

Why not more distro's ?

If you want to follow the herd install redhat or suse. Linux is about choice. I think Microsoft has bullied the industry so long that people have trouble with more then one way to think or have more then one way to do something. They want consistency and familiarity. The people I see complaining most about both gnome and kde for example are newbies and Windows users who are afraid to switch. People who use Linux/Unix understand that having more then one desktop environment is not bad.

How does this hurt Linux? You mean commercial support? They all target Suse, Redhat, and Debian. Companies like Oracle for example are specifically targeting RedHat advanced server since it changes the least. Also if you go to nvidia's website you will see drivers for quite alot of distro's.

Their are not numerous Linux versions, just distributions. They only look different because of different scripts and WindowManager themes running. Some of the package versions may differ but they are %95 the same from other distro's that are out at the same time. Mandrake 9, Redhat 8, Suse 8.1 all have the same versions of gcc, perl,kde, and apache for example. Its not like they are totally different beasts. Its easy to port.

Also I do not understand about your rat with hardware manufactures supporting mac users over linux ones. I find the situation opposite since Linux has more users and they use different kinds of hardware. Only ATI is behind and they are already at work with a unified driver model for Linux and Windows to compete against nvidia. Isn't competition great?

Companies and certain users want only one way of thinking are already in Microsoft's camp and will not change. A one and only one version of Linux will not convince them to switch. They are the ones already in .NET development, which once it's in is impossible to get out. They know it and do not care since an all Microsoft solution in their minds will lower support costs and its what everyone else is doing so they must stay with ms. They will stick with Windows as long as companies like PeopleSoft make Windows only products and mcse's are a dime a dozen and plentifull.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[$$$exy Gwen Stefani]

It will be unified to some extent, but it will take a bit more time.

There are already unified driver support projects, and there's a huge project at http://www.linuxbase.org/ in which the goal is "to develop and promote a set of standards that will increase compatability among Linux distributions and enable software applications to run on any compliant system."

We will do it, just give us a couple more years. Windows was written over several decades, and Linux is very new still!

Re:Will it ever stop?

[NanoGator]

"Erm, pretty much all driver code should be in the kernel anyways..."

Perhaps, but there needs to be an easy way to install them too. What's the guarantee that a given distro's not going to break something?

Question: Is there a driver installation standard that includes how to do it within KDE/Gnome? If there's not, then there's a nasty weakness there that'll pretty much guarantee most companies won't support it. If it is there, how often does it change? Does it change?

*Note: In case it's not obvious, I'm not knowledgable about Linux. From what little I've used it, the thought of installing a driver makes me go ewwwww. I'm spoiled by my 'Setup.exe, [Ok], [Ok], [Ok] *bam* you're up and running' expectation I've developed from using Windows 2000.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Elbereth]

I'm not sure you've actually used a Mac. There is an extremely limited amount of MacOS supported hardware. Let's compare:

Video Cards that are supported under MacOS X:
Nvidia GeForce4 MX, Ti
ATI Rage, Rage Pro, Rage Pro Turbo
ATI Radeon 7xxx, 8xxx, 9xxx (I'll be generous and give MacOS X the 9700, but I don't think ATI supports the 9700 under MacOS X yet)

Video Cards that are supported under Linux:
Nvidia Riva 128, TNT, TNT2
Nvidia GeForce2, GeForce2 MX
Nvidia GeForce3, GeForce3 Ti
Nvidia GeForce4 MX, GeForce4 Ti
ATI Mach64
ATI Rage, Rage Pro, Rage Pro Turbo
ATI Radeon 7xxx, 8xxx, 9xxx (some cards better supported than others)
Matrox Millennium, Millennium 2, Mystique
Matrix G100, G200, G400, G450, G550
Matrix Parhelion
Intel i810, i820, i845, i850G, etc
All SiS video cards
Most S3/Via video cards
A few other oddball chipsets

Let's try SCSI controllers.

SCSI Controllers supported under MacOS X
Atto U3D (Ultra 160)
Adaptec PowerDomain Ultra160 series
Adaptec PowerDomain Ultra Narrow series
QLogic (?? not sure which ones)

SCSI Controllers supported under Linux
All Adaptec SCSI controllers
All DPT SCSI controllers
All AMI SCSI controllers
All LSILogic/NEC SCSI controllers
All QLogic SCSI controllers
All Atto SCSI controllers
Dozens of oddball SCSI controllers

How about serial ATA controllers, sound cards, or combo Firewire/USB2.0 cards?

Nah. I think I've basically proven my point.

The only manufacturers who are dragging their feet on Linux support are ATI (uuggghhh... ATI sucks), Logitech (still no webcam drivers for Linux... I chucked my Logitech webcam a long time ago), AMD, and a few extremely minor companies who produce crappy USB/Firewire peripherals. Yes, MacOS does have much better support wrt USB/Firewire peripherals. I have trouble making my USB compact flash reader work with Linux. It's supported under XP and MacOS, though.

Seriously, this is not a troll. I feel that it's silly to go around saying that MacOS X has more drivers than Linux. It's a ridiculous claim that is easily proven false.

I own a Blue & White PowerMac (450 MHz G3) that's got an ATI video card and Adaptec SCSI controller. For a while, I had delusions of upgrading my PowerMac, like you can upgrade a PC. Not so. My choices are limited to an ATI Radeon 7000 PCI video card (no AGP slot on older PowerMacs) or an overpriced Adaptec Ultra160 SCSI controller. Good luck finding Atto or Qlogic SCSI controllers.

After doing a lot of research, I discovered that my PCI slots are basically useless. I can't put in a sound card, TV card, GeForce4 MX video card (because you can't buy them... they are Apple OEM only!), DVD decoder card, or anything else that I put in my Linux PC.

Macs are just not very upgradable. Once you buy a Mac, your upgrade options basically consist of an ATI video card or Adaptec SCSI controller. That's it. Once you buy both of them, you can add more hard drives. Whoop-de-doo.

I should probably rewrite this post so that it doesn't read so much like flamebait or a troll, but I'm too lazy.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most users don't have to :). I said, if the current interfaces don't work, then replace it with the one it'll be replaced with someday anyway.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

*Note: In case it's not obvious, I'm not knowledgable about Linux. From what little I've used it, the thought of installing a driver makes me go ewwwww. I'm spoiled by my 'Setup.exe, [Ok], [Ok], [Ok] *bam* you're up and running' expectation I've developed from using Windows 2000.

And we (Linux users) are spoiled by our "it's in the kernel already as a module, don't worry about it" expectation we've developed from using Linux. So, on the (rare, for the most part) instances when a driver doesn't already exist and isn't already setup, some of us get kind of upset ;).

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

simple dual monitor setup

Slightly OT: Under Red Hat, yes I have to setup my Matrox G400 dualhead (if I don't use Matrox's driver and app). Under Mandrake -- Automatically setup for me, no tinkering required.

Just thought I'd share that :)

I agree, though, that it would be nice to have an on-the-fly ability for resolution change.
(ctrl - alt - +/- doesn't count)

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry but I have to comment. First time ever and I have lurked for like 5 years, but you are ASKING for it!
more like
Setup.exe, [PRAY], [PRAY], [PRAY] *bam* you're screen is blue
and you get no information about what is really going on to troubleshoot!
I fucking hate the little blue bar that slowly fills as you install crap. Tell me what is really going on. I don't speak microsoft blue bar language!

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

The *only* improvements made in Linux were because of that wasted effort. Someone had an itch and scratched it. Linux wanted Unix to run on a 386 and use it multiprocessing abilities. He could have stuck with Minix. He could've just waited a few years till he could afford a unix workstation. He could have waited a few years and there would been a working BSD/86. Of course, if they BSD developers felt the same way they wouldn't have bothered.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[SN74S181]

I own a Blue & White PowerMac... After doing a lot of research, I discovered that my PCI slots are basically useless. I can't put in a sound card,

Ummm, I don't have a history of being a pro-Apple person, but even *I* know that the high end PCI sound cards generally plug into a Mac or a PC and with the right software do a hell of a good job of sound editing. I just downloaded and archived all the latest drivers for my Delta 66 sound card last week and MacOS is well supported.

If you mean you can't go into CompUSA and buy commodity-crap sound cards and schlepp 'em into your Mac, that might be a different story.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[vvikram]

huh....How does this hurt ? Of course it does. This is not economics, this is human society. When you want to provide an alternative to Microsoft then it is imperative to provide a unified face.

Actually its ironical that the most intelligent people in one dimension are so brainless [sorry for the harsh term] in another dimension. I have been like that when I was shouting up and down about linux. Let me give you an example: linux in itself came about due to a "critical mass" of organized people saying "hey lets get something out of this malleable chunk of cool code. There WAS before that the *BSD's and unix variants, what was definitely lacking was a concerted effort bounded together by the GPL and also the timing of the internet boom. But linux success HAS been in "rolling out" standard server based software - quickly roll out apache, php, mysql and get running....its SIMPLE isnt it ? its repeatable and its easy to do. quickly do a configure,make, make install - it works across MOST if NOT ALL of the software. WHY ? because the authors want to provide a uniform way of doing things. Extending this to a slightly larger scale doesnt seem to cross the minds of the ners?

While choice might be good for innovation and anti-monopolistic checks too much of choice does hurt. So a EE person asks me what is linux ? I say its an OS with a bunch of utilities. They ask "where can i download it"? and I say "huh....its like soap. you can get many flavours. The most popular is RedHat but you know this driver is supported better in the other distro but you know the security is best in Bastille but you know debian is the best in stability so you have to decide what you want to do" and the people go "huh-uh. thanks for the info.....later". This is for the end user side and believe me it does present a confused picture. For the developer side, thats us, it fractures a LOT of the effort. KDE reinvents the wheel,GNOME cannot *gasp* do what KDE has
done and so reinvents it in a slightly different form and so on and on. Imagine the number of install work, the number of packages, the number of hacks, the effort going into each of these distros - if they were to be combined into a select few then I can bet those distros will be awesome.

I cant believe I typed so much. Very sorry for the length. I just really dont agree that too much choice is great. There is a balance just like in real life for most things.

And, by the way, my univ has a linux distro too : SULinux

Thanks for reading.
vv

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I've never had any drivers fuck up my Windows computers to the point of reinstall. nVidia's Linux drivers have melted my computer on three seperate occasions.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[NanoGator]

"So, on the (rare, for the most part) instances when a driver doesn't already exist and isn't already setup, some of us get kind of upset ;)."

So you'd agree, then, that a simpler way of getting the driver installed would be preferable. Right?

I mean, the Linux Community can't install drivers into the kernel before the hardware's available.

BTW, Windows is pretty close in that regard. Every release of Windows has drivers for LOTS and I do mean LOTS of hardware. The problem is that Windows upgrades happen every couple of years, and it's a new purchase to attain them. Pity Service Packs don't cover that, heh.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

GeForce4 MX video card (because you can't buy them... they are Apple OEM only!), DVD decoder card, or anything else that I put in my Linux PC.

Often the only difference between a Mac version and the PC version of these cards is the price$$$ and a few lines in the ROM which the MacOS drivers search for before accepting the card. Often it is possible to buy a PC version of a card, then flash the Mac version's ROM onto it, then use it in your Mac as it's then 100% identical to a retail/OEM 'Mac version' of that piece of hardware. Do your research on the web beforehand, and you may be able to save yourself some money.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[RTPMatt]

Linux is great...as long as you have VMware

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Frater 219]

Having so much effort wasted on many different distributions is stupid. Can you imagine what type of improvements could have been made to Linux in general with the programming time invested in maintaining many different distributions?

What makes you think programmer time is fungible? It's not. More to the point -- what makes you think that anyone would have bothered with Linux in the first place, including Linus himself, if it didn't come with the freedom to do your own thing?

It is an error to assume that if the people who worked on this project had not worked on it, that their time and knowledge would have been spent on some other Linux-related project. If the Linux community had been afraid of "wasted effort" -- better known as diversity -- as you seem to be, perhaps they never would have bothered at all. They'd be using Windows, or maybe Solaris, and keeping their ideas to themselves.

Remember, this whole Linux thing started when Linus said the existing free Unix distributions (Minix and BSD) weren't quite what he was looking for, and went off to do his own thing. Or, alternately, when RMS said the existing software systems didn't quite offer the freedoms he wanted, and went off to make one that would. If Linus and RMS had stopped to worry about whether they were duplicating someone else's efforts, where would we be? Nowhere.

The choice is not whether people work on different projects or on the same project. The choice is whether people work on projects of their own choosing, or work on no project at all. To cut into people for exercising freedom is not advancing Linux; it is attacking the very wellspring of exuberance that birthed Linux and keeps it advancing.

See also my journal entry, second section, on "wasted effort" Stalinism.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[NanoGator]

"Linux is great...as long as you have VMware "

Flamebait? He's got a respectable point. Most Windows users (including myself) are afraid of what we lose when moving to Linux. Having VM-Ware (at least initially) would make the transition much more bearable. If VM-Ware came with a distro of Linux for a reasonable price (I think VM-Ware is around $300, if memory serves) then I probably would attempt a switch because I'd have something to fallback on.

Honestly, I wish moderators wouldn't just assume one-liners are automatically insulting. I've gotten burned a couple of times like that over the last few days.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[holy zarquon's singi]

*Note: In case it's not obvious, I'm not knowledgable about Linux. From what little I've used it, the thought of installing a driver makes me go ewwwww. I'm spoiled by my 'Setup.exe, [Ok], [Ok], [Ok] *bam* you're up and running' expectation I've developed from using Windows 2000.

I know what you mean. However, recently I've discovered the following, under Debian at least: "su -c modconf". Amazing stuff

Re:Will it ever stop?

[RTPMatt]

"Flamebait? He's got a respectable point. Most Windows users (including myself) are afraid of what we lose when moving to Linux. Having VM-Ware (at least initially) would make the transition much more bearable"

Thank you! I have installed my suse 7.2 pro many MANY times, and every time i find myself going back to windows software. Linux just does not do for me what windows does (eh, like crash). I have 2, 200 cd cases full of windows software (true iv probably never used 1/4 of it). still No matter how many times i install linux nothing changes and the fact is i just dont know it like i know windows, and it is not even close to as user friendly! iv been a windows/dos tech for years, and ever time a customer asks me about linux i have to be honest and say 'Just for the money over to MS, cause im not gonna take the time to install windows for you when you realize you dont want it' without great software like vmware and wine, i might never have any reason to boot up linux (except maybe all those cool games that come with suse)

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

After doing a lot of research, I discovered that my PCI slots are basically useless.

To you, perhaps. But the source for Darwin is available, and I for one enjoy writing bus control code to talk to the various PCI devices stuffed into the OSX box.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[grolschie]

Often the only difference between a Mac version and the PC version of these cards is the price$$$ and a few lines in the ROM which the MacOS drivers search for before accepting the card

So you still need a pc to flash it right? Or some expensive hardware?

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I had that for my wireless card under Linux. You would think by now it would be standard in the kernel. When the OS installs it automatically, it is easier than Windows.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonvmous Coward]

Having VM-Ware (at least initially) would make the transition much more bearable.

Count me in on that sentiment. My job'd like me to run Linux but there's still stuff that has to get done. I don't have a lot of fiddlin time. Nothing against Linux, but my good productivity has been rewarded with increased expectactions. It's like I have a well established cache!

Re:Will it ever stop?

[NanoGator]

"I have 2, 200 cd cases full of windows software (true iv probably never used 1/4 of it)."/i.

Hmm. Too bad it's illegal for you to rip them to Mp3, then you'd only need 22 CDs.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[RTPMatt]

"Hmm. Too bad it's illegal for you to rip them to Mp3, then you'd only need 22 CDs."

rip software to mp3? well, i mean i could see it working for windows (its not like the lossy compression could possibly make it any worse) but i dont think the rest of it would work too well

Re:Will it ever stop?

[bigberk]

all driver code should be in the kernel anyways

And it works beautifully, through loadable kernel modules. In this respect I think linux is superior to Windows. I spent hours this weekend trying to reinstall a Windows system that insisted on guessing and providing "the best" driver for my hardware. With linux I can use modprobe to load the exact appropriate driver I need, and these drivers are standard across all distros (kernel version specific however).

Re:Will it ever stop?

[1u3hr]

Every release of Windows has drivers for LOTS and I do mean LOTS of hardware. The problem is that Windows upgrades happen every couple of years, and it's a new purchase to attain them. Pity Service Packs don't cover that, heh.

If someone sells some PC hardware, you can bet they give you drivers in the box for every recent version of Windows. And/or you can download the latest ones from their website, or any of a dozen "driver library" sites.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[jemnery]

Sorry, I'm not an MS apologist, but this is unfair. Sure, Windows has a *terrible* history (I've been a user since before v3.1), and MS is a pretty horrible company, but your comment simply is not true any more. Windows 2000 is very solid, and the system for installing drivers is quick and painless. "Computer Management" through MMC and auto-detection of new hardware are both impressive bits of coding, IMO.

"and you get no information about what is really going on to troubleshoot!"
Now this I totally agree with. I want to know what's going on too, but 99% of computer users don't want, and shouldn't need, to know.
An example. A new graphics adaptor is a piece of consumer electronics these days, with a nice shiny box and everything. Would I prefer to perhaps recompile my f**cking OS kernel to get it working, or pop in a CD and wait? Hmmm... (And both methods require rebooting and nervous anticipation, BTW, Windows does not have the monopoly on that).

--
I like Linux AND Windows. Shoot me.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[fucksl4shd0t]

I'm spoiled by my 'Setup.exe, [Ok], [Ok], [Ok] *bam* you're up and running' expectation I've developed from using Windows 2000.

That's funny, this is an experience I've *never* had with windows 2000. Software yes, drivers no. maybe now, 3 years after the initial relase of the new hardware abstraction layer, maybe NOW companies are finally getting it right, but not back when I actually used that stupid OS.

Aside from that, the Linux kernel scans the hardware at boot time and loads whatever modules it needs. It's got some conf files in etc to configure the modules with. So all the hardware vendors have to do is give us a 2.2.x and a 2.4.x module with some basic instructions on installing it. It's just not that hard to do, especially comparing it to making Windows drivers.

For windows, sure you can click your setup.exe and it's up and running, but did you bother to consider that your installer had to see if it was win95/95, winMe, win2k, nt4, or winXP before it installed a driver? That's FIVE (count'em) different HALs they provide for! With Linux, there's only 3 relevant stable kernels at the moment. Lots of subversions of them, certainly, but only 3 when it comes down to it. Write for the LCD of each of them and make a driver for 2.0.x, 2.2.x, and 2.4.x.

BETTER YET. Get your driver programmers to submit the drivers directly to LKML and see if they're accepted. I imagine they would be if there wasn't a better one already available. They might rewrite it, they will almost certainly audit it. If you are serious about supporting Linux, you'll check with the kernel developers.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[fucksl4shd0t]

LOL, I think that's sort of the point - the end user shouldn't have to think about interfaces, sound servers, and replacing one with the other!

Luckily, that problem has been solved with ALSA being merged into the code, and ALSA seems to support every sound card.

iirc, the problem with OSS as a sound interface was that in some instances you had to pay some money for better stuff.

As far as the sound servers go, perhaps you should consider looking at the projects that actually use the sound interfaces you're talking shit about. The ones I'm working with (as an enduser), both ecasound and Audacity, have OSS interfaces. Audacity is adding ALSA as portaudio gets it. They're looking to add Jack and Arts support as well. Ecasound already has alsa, jack, and arts support. From the end-user's point of view, it doesn't matter, the apps both support something you already have on your computer. From the audiophile's point of view, it doesn't matter, the apps both support the one you want. :) (Audacity's is forthcoming, btw)

This is a classic example of people not knowing what the fuck they're talking about, that's all. :)

Re:Will it ever stop?

[fucksl4shd0t]

If Linus and RMS had stopped to worry about whether they were duplicating someone else's efforts, where would we be? Nowhere.

I disagree with your answer. :) We'd be in handcuffs along with the rest of the Windows lusers....

Pardon my elitist attitude. :)

Re:Will it ever stop?

[fucksl4shd0t]

huh....its like soap. you can get many flavours. The most popular is RedHat but you know this driver is supported better in the other distro but you know the security is best in Bastille but you know debian is the best in stability so you have to decide what you want to do

Looks to me like you failed to provide a unified front. People ask me about Linux and I say "It's a free OS, you can download several for free." Then they say "Where?". I just tell them "Well, you should check out Mandrake first. It's the one I use, so I definitely recommend it. There's a lot of choice in distributions, but they're all built on the same stuff, so they interoperate well. Mandrake's a great one to start with, and you may never need another one. The beauty of choice, though, is that if you like Linux but you're dissatisfied with Mandrake, you can check out the others."

It's every bit in how you present it. Just make sure you're telling them the truth, and you're doing everything you can to help them (and charging an appropriate fee if you prefer).

From a university's standpoint, say they want their students to use Linux, but they don't want to support a few different distributions? Fine, roll their own and tell the kids "use this one or find someone else to support it. You're tuition covers this one." Anything unreasonable about that? They can give their kids something that installs out of the box and works on their network. Can they do that with Windows? Nope. They can achieve a close approximation, but not the real deal. Linux is the way...

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

i think it's funny when people don't know jack about windows, or realize it's pretty simple to troubleshoot. they spend all their time in the 'linux world' reading god knows how many 'man pages' (how gay does that sound) so they know how to compile linux on their calculator.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

lol follow the herd. when will elitist linux nerds get it. just because you use linux, or wait, a BETTER version of linux than most n00bs, it doesn't make everyone else in a 'herd'. it makes you a 'nerd' and them 'normal people who use whatever they see fit'. i swear i sometimes want to punch these 60yo fatass hippie people until their heart explodes (it's going to anyway after all that fat greasy food and sitting at a 'terminal' for the past 20 years)

Re:Will it ever stop?

[cascadefx]

Quote:

LOL, I think that's sort of the point - the end user shouldn't have to think about interfaces, sound servers, and replacing one with the other!

Sure, finding out which hardware works with your system is always a pain. A modern Operating System should just work, after all. I have found these resources to be invaluable when trying to find out whether something will work with my OS or not.

Of course, I am kidding. But realize all OSes have hardware issues and many times those issues force the user to step outside "the experience" (or pay someone else to) in order to fix the problem that they are having.

To give Microsoft credit, the end user has to do this less and less often if they are working with generic setups and applications. However, once you specialize (on any platform) you run the risk of forcing the user to "think about interfaces."

We forget that Microsoft has the same issues as Apple and Linux, but that is because there is a huge industry that has built up around the support of the OS that is used on 90% of the desktops. That "after market" industry is in many ways an extension of the "ease-of-use" on the user end.

I work in end-user support and the same problems that I hear that Linux must overcome are consistently present in Windows as well. The "average" user is no more adept at using Windows or dealing with its problems. They may be better at it than on a Mac and BeOS, but they still need lots of help.

Just my .02

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

if there's no info then add info to it. He's not saying "make linux into windows". He's just suggesting that userfriendliness won't hurt.
not everybody got 9978534112 hrs to figure out how to install, build, compile softwares for every distro.

but then again.. mac already did it pretty well.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[UnknownQ]

For windows, sure you can click your setup.exe and it's up and running, but did you bother to consider that your installer had to see if it was win95/95, winMe, win2k, nt4, or winXP before it installed a driver? That's FIVE (count'em) different HALs they provide for! With Linux, there's only 3 relevant stable kernels at the moment. Lots of subversions of them, certainly, but only 3 when it comes down to it. Write for the LCD of each of them and make a driver for 2.0.x, 2.2.x, and 2.4.x.

Well, there's a bad example if I've ever seen one. Just because Linux is newer doesn't mean it's better.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[abhikhurana]

I odont know about aou dude but my ATI radeo works fine under linux. You can even download linux drivers fro ATI websites... my logitech keyboard, mouse and yes my Logitech webcam work fine under linux as well. So welcome to the real world. That said I do believe that a lot more hardware is supported under linux than under Mac OS. But when u come to think of it, the only reason even windows supports more hardware than linux is because the manufacturers write drivers for windows but they dont do so for linux and there is a certain amount of truth in the fact that if only there was a single linux distro, it would be much easier for manufacturers to write drivers for linux, primarily because many manufacturers don't want to release their device specs or give any info to the world about internals of thier device which they have to do if they release the source code of their driver because surely they cant provide the driver for every linux distro out there.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[James Skarzinskas]

I'll bite, but it's quite apparent you don't, or haven't used Windows. 2000 and newer of the Windows operating systems have NEVER crashed on me, installing drivers and in simple day to day operations.

Why don't you grow up and stop trying to whore karma just by flaming Windows with redundant lies?

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you know that 9978534112 hours is over 1139102 years?

That's 11 times longer than Homo Sapiens has been on this planet. So why don't you cut back a little with the exaggeration.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's 11 times longer than Homo Sapiens has been on this planet.

...And almost as long as it takes Mozilla to build.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Gordonjcp]

It's pretty unusual to find anything that needs *that* specific a driver that you can't get by with one that's already in the kernel. Take digital cameras, for instance. Just as long as you can tell it to use DSCF then it appears to be a USB storage device. Linux doesn't care what it really is, or who made it, it just goes "Ooh, a new disk drive. Coolies, let's call it /dev/sda" and then you mount it like any other drive.

For things that *do* need a special kernel module, like for instance NVidia's drivers, you extract the source, say "make" and wait until the prompt comes back, then put a line in the startup script that says "modprobe NVdriver" or whatever. It's far easier than pissing about with Windows's "Add new hardware..." wizard that sits and scans through every possible device until it guesses, usually wrongly, what you've installed. Even when it does guess correctly, it often forces you to reinstall perfectly working devices.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[TheRaven64]

win95/95, winMe, win2k, nt4, or winXP before it installed a driver? That's FIVE (count'em) different HALs

Actually, it's more like 2.5. Win95/98 use the same driver model. NT4 had its own driver model. Win2k and WinXP both use WDM, but a lot of NT4 drivers can be made to work in the NT5 series with minor config file changes. WinME supprots WDM and Win9x drivers, so with minor changes to the .inf file it will use whatever you already had. Most new hardware just needs to have a WDM driver written to support ME, 2K and XP. 9x and NT 4 are still in use, so you should probably support them too, but this still only adds up to 3, 2 of which are remarkably similar. Oh, and did I mention that MSDN provides you with tutorials, and a comprehensive help reference as part of the Driver Development kit (free download), as well as simple examples which can be extended easily for your particular hardware? Want to write a DirectX 9 video driver? Just take the reference renderer and replace the bits you can do in hardware with your own code.

Get your driver programmers to submit the drivers directly to LKML and see if they're accepted.

So I create a modem, which is basically just a DSP, and put all of the controller code into the driver. Or maybe I make sound cards with 5.1 speaker output and implement the AC-3 decoder in the driver (a la Creative Labs' SBLive! series). I should just GPL this software, and give it away? Right, so now every 5.1 channel sound card supported by linux has an AC-3 software decoder, and it's even been ported back to windows. Great, I've just lost one of my major selling points and my competitor, who didn't have to pay for the development, is undercutting me. Oh, and those nice people from Dolby have just sent some lawyers around. It seems that AC-3 decoding is patented, and I'm a licensed distributer of this technology. They want $0.25 for everyone running Linux with code derived from my driver now...

Re:Will it ever stop?

[doggo]

" Most Windows users (including myself) are afraid of what we lose when moving to Linux."

What do you lose? The ability to play games? Big loss. When I was using Linux I never felt I'd lost anything. If anything I felt I'd gained. Gained an enormous selection of what was arguably free, as in "free", at no cost, software. But I'm not a gamer.

Now I use OS X. Again, nothing lost. Well, not as much free software, but less is more in the Mac world since you don't have to wade through as much crap to find a gem. And for fun, check out Perversion Tracker, especially the entry on Opera.

Don't get me wrong though, Windows is fine as long as you don't try to install and uninstall a lot of different kinds of software on a machine you actually plan to use. Registry bloat and file system fragmentation will soon render your screaming 2.5 GHz system slower than an old lady on thorazine.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[j-pimp]

Its really not that bad conidering I have to compile mozilla every time I want to install a gecko browser on FreeBSD. It may take over an hour on a PIII-400 but that more to do with the 128 megs of ram and the fact that being its a laptop and I dont currently have the luxury of having 5 or 6 computers setup in my house to chose between I'm usually doing that in the background while doinging the (write code, compile, test, write more code) cycle on the same machine eating up more ram and CPU.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[budgenator]

a lot of the problem is more in naming schemes rather than real an exampple is ymessenger, will no work in SuSE unless you make a link from what SuSE called libcrypt to what RedHat called libcrypt and bingo now it works.

The real biggest differense between distro's to me is that slackware uses the BSD style init scripts and everybody else uses system4 style init scripts.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[swv3752]

I have a Radeon 7500. I recently installed win2k. I install the latest drivers from ATI. Part way through the install process, the program crashes. Fsck, I restart back into Linux and download the latest drivers again, hoping that it was just a corrupted download but not really expecting that to be the case. I also search around to see if anyone else has this issue. All I see is that the AGP interface gets disabled, great.

So I reboot and try again. Same thing. But I notice that the drivers are not uncompressed so maybe I can just install through the add new hard ware wizard. Yeah it is possible but takes forever, and several reboots, and much cursing, and a dive or two into safe mode.

So a few days later ATI comes out a new driver, that correct their screw up with the last one. Ok, I go download and install. Hmm, why is the screen flickering and why are my fps's so slow? Yank out the driver and reinstall after much cursing and frustration and now everything works.

I lay the blame at both ATI and MS.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[lostchicken]

Really. All this time I thought that you had to use Debian for The Hurd.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[fucksl4shd0t]

Well, there's a bad example if I've ever seen one. Just because Linux is newer doesn't mean it's better.

Idiot. That wasn't an argument for LInux being better, that was an argument for hardware manufacturers to make drivers for it. Next time, read the whole thread, dude.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Seeker5528]

" i think it's funny when people don't know jack about windows, or realize it's pretty simple to troubleshoot."

I think it's funny when people who think Windows is simple to trouble shoot fail to ask themselves, if Windows is so easy to troubleshoot why are there so many forums spread across the net filled with people who can't find a resolution to their problems?

Later, Seeker

Re:Will it ever stop?

[dotgain]

Slow down.

What makes you think the aquisition of modules is any different to packages? Newbies don't have to compile Mozilla, they can get it (and almost always do) in binary form.

Same with modules. Though I have recompiled kernel and modules, I can't say I've ever had to.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[yedragon]

Because Windows is targeted to people who don't understand how their computers work, and therefore haven't even the most basic troubleshooting skills. Also because Windows is not very good at inidicating when hardware problems exist -- everything looks like an OS problem.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[yedragon]

Actually, the loss of the ability to play games *does* matter to some of us. My work PCs run Unix (one Linux, one OS X), but my home PC still has Windows 2000 on it, not because I like Windows but because I can play Divine Divinity.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Reziac]

Just for the record, from Win98 on, the ONLY non-native drivers I've had to install are for the video card and for an SBLive, and then only with Win98. Everything else was autodetected and provided by Win98/2k/ME/XP (Win2K had the best Matrox video driver I've ever seen, why it went away in XP is beyond me).

The only driver argument I had was with Win2K regarding a known-problem OPTi64 sound card (only WinME would recognise it, and then only with its Win95 driver). BTW, linux won't have anything to do with this card either.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[fucksl4shd0t]

Just for the record, from Win98 on, the ONLY non-native drivers I've had to install are for the video card and for an SBLive, and then only with Win98. Everything else was autodetected and provided by Win98/2k/ME/XP (Win2K had the best Matrox video driver I've ever seen, why it went away in XP is beyond me).

that's great. Why don't you come over here and explain to my win2k installation how to use a TNT PCI card. While you're at it, convince it to use the 100mbs network card that's in it. It won't recognize either of those, and at least in the case of the video card, the manufacturer isn't supporting it.

I realize you can say "You're using out-dated software!". And you're both right and wrong. The ethernet card was purchased brand new within the last year. The video card was a hand-me-down. Most importantly, Mandrake Linux 8.2 and 9.0 both recognized both of these pieces of hardware, along with the rest of the stuff I've got (a certain VIA southbridge, for example, on the kt266a set).

So, in my network, my subjective experience is that Mandrake Linux is easier to install than Windows 2000.

mmmm, I did buy a cheap ethernet card that winMe and win2k both failed to identify. They also both failed to run the driver supplied by the manufacturer. It was supposed to go in my upstairs neighbor's computer. I wound up digging out an old card and giving that to her and putting the new one in one of my linux boxes. And guess what? It was recognized and automatically configured for me.

Just fuckin' face it. Linux hardware configuration *is* competitive to Windows hardware configuration. It hasn't always been that way, I realize. But it is. The linux kernel is more stable, was built with security in mind from the ground up. It has a robust threading library (even better ones coming in the next kernel!). There are a plethora of applications available that take care of everything that is available in your proprietary world. The only ones I haven't found are small-business accounting and CRM. But those aren't easy to find in that configuration for Windows, either.

When it comes down to it, Linux isn't just "ready" for the desktop. It's ready for all-purpose general use. And it's getting better. This Longhorn that Microshaft has been working on had better be something really kick-ass. Otherwise, they look more like a rabbit in the middle of a highway than they do the 800 lb gorilla they're usually credited with.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[Reziac]

Tellya what .. I'll come fix your TNT card in W2K if you come here and get Mandrake to admit that yonder Matrox has 16mb of RAM and not just 4mb :)

Re:Will it ever stop?

[DanAnderson26]

Yea! 5 years of lurking, first post as an AC! Who could have done it better?

Some people REALLY strive for neutral karma.

Dan

Re:Will it ever stop?

[alienmole]

it's quite apparent you don't, or haven't used Windows. 2000 and newer of the Windows operating systems have NEVER crashed on me, installing drivers and in simple day to day operations.

Why don't you grow up and stop trying to whore karma just by flaming Windows with redundant lies?

Way to extrapolate your own limited experience to everyone in the world!

I've seen Windows 2000 crash from installing drivers. Less than some older versions did, certainly, but it happens. As for day to day operations - let me guess - you turn your computer off every night, don't you? Try leaving it on for a few weeks and see how it works for you. You haven't lived until your Win2K machine silently runs out of resources, refusing to open new windows or menus and simply responding to clicks with silence.

Windows 2000 is still a poor attempt to be a real operating system. It's only recently approached the level of stability needed for a server OS; and as a workstation OS, it passes muster only with people who don't know any better, or who are overly influenced by pretty pictures.

BTW, I've used and developed software for the Windows NT series of OSes (NT, 2000, XP) since the betas of NT back in '91, so I'm pretty familiar with them. If anything, stability has *reduced* since NT v3.1 - ever since they added Internet Explorer, and the UI geegaws taken from Win9x, things began going downhill.

Re:Will it ever stop?

[James Skarzinskas]

It's amusing how you have to assume that I have limited experience to appease your own insecurities. I've been using Windows 2000 for years. My present uptime is four months, and this is being used for development and gaming primarily. I have noticed no performance degredation, and my experiences have been the same on several other boxes as well. I'm sorry that you haven't had such good luck, but all in all, Windows 2000 has worked great on average for myself and associates who I advise to use it.

Re:Wowzer

[iosmart]

uh...its not linux for colleges, lol. thats what i thought at first then i read the article. it's name isn't related to the distro by any means

100MBIT MIRROR of college.ch

[iosmart]

http://www.pchopper.com/mirror/linux/

Maybe many distros aren't the problem...

[cubal]

but how they are perceived. For instance, there are a whoooole lot of distros based off other distros - based on RH, Slack, Debian etc.

This is all well and good, but maybe we need some other terminology than "distro". A term which implied sort of half-fledged distro-ness [sic], for instance for a distro *based on* something, but focussed in a certain area, would be very useful.

If this were the case, you would have your general distros (Redhat, Slack, Debian), and then, in sub-groups or similar, you would have Redhat-based College Distro, or Debian-based Medical Records distro or whatever....

Re:Maybe many distros aren't the problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you quoting something? Oh, you're not. You're just a fucking idiot.

Re:Maybe many distros aren't the problem...

[nautical9]

It's a good idea in principal, but focusing on the the (current) major distros perhaps isn't a great solution. Sure, most distros out there today were based on RedHat, SlackWare, Debian, SCO, or some other *nix (like BSD) when they started, but those names mean nothing to those outside the community.

I think a functional labelling would be more appropriate, such as distros targetted towards "servers", "desktops", "new-to-linux", and/or "complete customization" (PC term for "hardcore geek").

Now, before I'm be flamed to death for trying to put certain distros under any of those labels, I completely realize ANY distro can be used for ANY purpose (as other posters have pointed out, they're ALL just the same kernel, and a whole bunch of the same utilities and patches, but with some extra "glue", packaging, and support systems). That's the real beauty of Linux, but it takes a while for a newbie to realize this.

The whole reason there are so many distros is because certain people didn't like how other distros were "focused".

Examples:

• Mandrake and RedHat typically appeal to desktop users and newbies alike, since their ease-of-installation, configuration, and hardware compatibilites are top-notch (Yes, they both offer server-focused packages, but that's my point - they realize they have to market those differently than their stock packages).
• Debian is targetted towards server installations and/or those who value pure stablity over having the latest and greatest front-end features (and those who actually realize there's typically a trade-off with "new vs. stable")
• Slackware, Gentoo (my current favorite), Sorcerer, Lunar, Linux-From-Scratch et al are focused towards the hard-core linux guys who want to be able to control absolutely everything about their system, be it for desktops OR servers, but these are obviously not targetted towards newbies.

I began my Linux introduction with Slackware myself back when there were very few distros to choose from, but I'm from a CS background working on SunOS, IRIX, and AIX machines. The level of complexity wasn't a consideration of mine.

But for newbies (and remember, everyone is a newbie at one point), I feel it's best to start with the pre-packaged, easy-to-use (trade-off: harder to customize) version of any softare, and work your way up.

Re:Maybe many distros aren't the problem...

[blibbleblobble]

"Maybe we need some other terminology than "distro". A term which implied sort of half-fledged distro-ness [sic], for instance for a distro *based on* something"

What you need is a family-tree. Maybe one at distrowatch or something.

For example, I'd quite like to produce a distro which is *exactly* like Mandrake, but without the need to agree to an End User License Agreement. Counts as a distro? Nope. But it would need a different name, hence more confusion among users.

SCREENSHOTS

[iosmart]

http://www.pchopper.com/mirror/linux/screenshots/s napshot1.png and http://www.pchopper.com/mirror/linux/screenshots/s napshot6.png. it actually looks pretty nice. i'm not sure if there are other screenshots or not, i'll try to get possible 2/3/4/5 and so on...try them and they might be uploaded later (if they exist)

Slackware again?

[farrellj]

Why is it that it seems these days every new distro is based upon Slackware?!?!

ttyl
Farrell

Re:Slackware again?

[$$$exy Gwen Stefani]

Because it's got the best foundation of Linux code!

I've used it for 8 years going on 9 and have no complaints. I know where everything is and don't have to root around (no pun intended ;-D) for this and that file. It's always in the same spot. I feel that Red Hat and other newer players in the Linux game move things around just a bit too much.

I like Slackware. It's stable, free, and intuitive.

But it's a matter of choice. Linux is Linux, and it's all good.

Re:Slackware again?

[kfg]

Because they know a good thing when they see it. It really is as simple as that.

KFG

Re:Slackware again?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd use slackware. If only I could get stupid Eclipse to work on it. Once they get a gtk port, it's goodbye redhat. Although I've had very few complaints with 8.0

Re:Slackware again?

[ananke]

slackware is a good starting point. it's clean, simple, and easy to build upon. that's what i use for our linux workstations [with the addition of systemimager].

Re:Slackware again?

[damien_kane]

Why is it that it seems these days every new distro is based upon Slackware?!?!

Because it's the best? Just kidding...
You do know that asking that question will just get every fellow slacker posting that as a response?

Seriously though, it is a very good base, although its update cycle is long. Many packages are old and sometimes deprecated.
Slack8.1 still comes with Gnome 1.4 (although dropline Gnome is beautiful).
Maybe people got sick of waiting for things to become 'officially' supported by slack, so rolled out their own pseudo-distro.

Re:Slackware again?

[BrokenHalo]

The update cycle might be long between releases, but Patrick V does a pretty good job of keeping slackware-current very current, and his packages (nearly) always work right first time. I never could say that about RedHat or Mandrake.

Re:Slackware again?

[bigberk]

Why is it that it seems these days every new distro is based upon Slackware?!?!

I turn to slackware whenever I need to get a reliable system running in little time. I think slackware stands out because it has maintained a particularly clean and transparent configuration style. I see this as being the most flexible distro - and hence, a nice basis for other distros.

Re:Slackware again?

[Phroggy]

Why is it that it seems these days every new distro is based upon Slackware?!?!

Maybe because Slackware is just that cool?

I started playing around with Linux From Scratch. I realized that most of the things I wanted to customize to suit my tastes are exactly the things Slackware does, the difference being that with Slackware it's already done for me so I don't have to.

eh?

[syle]

Furthermore, I think that Slackware package system is much more reliable them 'rpm'.

To find his reasoning or support for this statement, you'll have to take the course.

Re:eh?

[kristjansson]

His complaint with rpm has to do with its internal package database and the oddball nature of dependencies in an rpm. You can run into some really interesting problems with package dependencies -- for example, compiling a dependency from source. Yes, libxyz.so is installed, but since it wasn't installed from another rpm, every rpm package that you try to install that depends on libxyz is going to complain. I know that caused me many a headache in the past, and I know about --force and --nodeps (now, at least), but it really is a bit of a pain in the ass.

Besides, have you ever downloaded an rpm and found out it was for the wrong rpm based distro? almost as painful.

basically, the dean doesn't like redhat, isn't fond of rpms, and doesn't want the perceived support headache involved.

MORE SCREENSHOTS

[iosmart]

2, 3, 4, and 5 have been uploaded...

CMU has a linux distribution too

[nstrom]

Carnegie Mellon University has had its own Red Hat-based distro for at least 5 years now, called Andrew Linux.

Re:CMU has a linux distribution too

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear god, those installation instructions look hairy. NCSU has had its own RH-based distro for awhile now. Of course, the Red Hat corporate headquarters are about 100 yards from my monday morning class...

Re:CMU has a linux distribution too

[nstrom]

Yeah, Andrew Linux is pretty old stuff. I don't actually know of anybody who ever ran it, but it's available.

Re:CMU has a linux distribution too

[sahala]

I never used it when I was there, but I assumed that the benefit of Andrew Linux was that it came with everything needed to be "on Andrew". I never really saw the point really, since it was dead simple to just open up an xterm off one of the andrew servers to do any work.

Re:CMU has a linux distribution too

[CTho9305]

Yea, but you have to remember that our distro depends heavily on AFS - a lot of critical files need to be accessed from the network, so it isn't really useful anywhere but here on campus. I hear even over broadband, it is pretty bad.

New Linux PR slogan

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux, the Sweetheart of Sigma Chi

Hey guys I found a fast T-3 server to download it

[$$$exy Gwen Stefani]

Enjoy!!!

http://mirrors.sunsite.dk/collegelinux/

Re:I fingered Kathleen Fent Malda

[Anonymous Coward]

Better wash those hands in lye soap, rinse them in Clorox, and then swab them with rubbing alcohol.

Wireless

[ShadowDrake]

Colleges are ahead of the curve regarding wireless. GNU/Linux is nasty to prepare wireless on. This comes from experience. I had to pull the packets to my Thinkpad by hand!

Really valuable for a college environment would be a completely idiot-proofed wireless network setup utility. This utility or package should:

-Have all the driver modules compiled, and the configuration files kept up to date about different manufacturers' model identifications.

-Have a convinent popup tool, ideally triggered at the card-insertion time, and iconifying shortly after, that provides helpful stats and diagnostics. How hard would it be to convert 700 lines of iwconfig, ifconfig, and driver messages to:

"Discovered SSID "foo"."
"No IP number available after 20 seconds. Respawning DHCPCD." (to make up for some setups that seem to make DHCP have a fit if you pop the card and suspend, then pick up later."
"DHCP results: IP number is 127.0.0.43"
"Current situation: Signal/noise = 54/40. 353 bad sends, 107 bad recieves"

Re:Wireless

[BigBir3d]

Odd. I installed Mandrake 9.0 the other day on my IBM ThinkPad, and it was as easy to connect as my girlfriends iBook 800 was. Only one thing was done manually. It found the Lucent wireless card fine, and installed the correct driver. I told it to use DHCP, and that was it. I can even take the card out of my laptop, and put it back in, and it still works. No turning it off and on like I had to with Windows. Now I really understand why hot-swapping is so nice.

Re:Wireless

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need to reboot windows to get PCMCIA cards to work. Stop trying to bash windows. It doesn't make you cool.

Re:Wireless

[Anonymous Coward]

This comes from experience. I had to pull the packets to my Thinkpad by hand!

You were lucky! In my day we had to transcribe the wireless packets by hand using a teletype and a tricked out AM radio.

Re:Wireless

[Anonymous Coward]

You had a radio? What luxery! At my Uni we didn't have a radio. We had to route the wireless packets down a length of Cat 5.

Re:Wireless

[Morgahastu]

Perhaps for you but I have tried all of the major distros and none of them have worked for my Wi-Fi card.

I once got Redhat 8 to work with it, but after I rebooted it didn't work anymore.

I once got RedHat 7.2 to work with it (for good) and then I upgraded to 8. I tried to duplicate this elsewhere and it did not work.

Its very inconsistent.

I've never gotten mandrake to see any wireless cards on any of my computers.

The only computers that did manage to get working (with redhat 7.2) are laptops.

If Linux Distros want to keep up with other real operating systems they should realize how popular wi-fi is now and make it as easy as Windows XP or OS X to setup. This would be a good opportunity to show up Windows XP because it works, but it could be a whole lot better.

Re:Wireless

[BigBir3d]

where did i say about rebooting windows?

i was referring to having to turn off the card, eject, put back in... otherwise the system can go unstable, or the card just won't work. i have had this experience with win98/winME/win2000 on the same laptop. i was pleasantly surprised that mandrake 9.0 did not do the same.

don't assume i am trolling because i speak of a benefit of linux over windows.

Re:Wireless

[TKinias]

scripsit ShadowDrake:

GNU/Linux is nasty to prepare wireless on. This comes from experience. I had to pull the packets to my Thinkpad by hand!

I'm sorry you had such a difficult time of it. I can only relate my own experience with Debian Sarge on a Dell Latitude with an Orinoco card. Here's how it went: With laptop off, pop in wifi card. Boot. I'm on line. If I have booted without the card, doing an 'ifup eth0' is all it takes to bring it up. It's totally transparent to me whether I have the Orinoco or an ethernet card in; both work without any effort save the occasional ifdown eth0 / ifup eth0 when changing from one to the other.

Mirror online

[KFK2]

here's a mirror.. Mirror

screen shots at
ss1
ss2
ss3

GNOME 2.2 and XFree86 4.3 for CollegeLinux

[fflewddur]

Also be sure to check out the latest release of Dropline GNOME--it now works with CollegeLinux and adds a beautiful GNOME 2.2-based desktop and XFree86 4.3 to a great base system. Details and downloads can be found at www.dropline.net/gnome.

Re:GNOME 2.2 and XFree86 4.3 for CollegeLinux

[Anonymous Coward]

XFree86 4.3 isn't in dropline (yet) there has been discussions about ading it though.

hook

Re:GNOME 2.2 and XFree86 4.3 for CollegeLinux

[Anonymous Coward]

opps looks like it was just added today :(...i am wrong you ae right.

hook

FUCK YEAH!

[Anonymous Coward]

YOU rule.

heres a bit on distrowatch 8)

[urbieta]

http://www.distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution= college

Maybe you just suck

[Anonymous Coward]

/Trolling from an open AP using Knoppix

Absolutely wrong

[gorjusborg]

Having so much effort wasted on many different distributions is stupid. Can you imagine what type of improvements could have been made to Linux in general with the programming time invested in maintaining many different distributions?

You mean you would already have a free clone of YOUR favorite OS NOW if everyone would just team up and agree that your favorite GUI and OS's philosophy is the best?

The problem is, there are people who actually work on projects, and those who criticize other's projects. The reason that there are so many projects is that people disagree on what the 'correct' way of doing things is. If you want a windows clone, use windows. Otherwise, choose the distribution that fits your computing style the best.

Oh, and by the way, ctl-alt-+ and ctl-alt-- changes your resolutions in X on-the-fly, if you compile your quality sound driver and insert it into the kernel, you'll have reliable sound, and xfreee86 +xinerama works great for MULTI-monitor setups, not just dual-monitor setups.

Furthermore, the developers that work on making different distributions have totally different skill sets than driver developers and applications developers. In other words, you can't assume that if these people weren't developing their distribution they would be fixing problems with sound, video, etc.. In fact, if they weren't developing their distribution, they would probably be posting nonsense on slashdot, and complaining about how all the current distributions are crap.

Sorry if I come off as harsh, but I hate this type of thinking. Some people are so lazy, but expect the world of others. Parasites.

Re:Absolutely wrong

[Penguin Follower]

Oh, and by the way, ctl-alt-+ and ctl-alt-- changes your resolutions in X on-the-fly,

As much as I love Linux/X11, I find the method you mentioned as less than desirable. Yes, it changes the resolution. It also leaves me with a virtual desktop size of the default resolution. Thus, to see all of the desktop at once is not possible, requiring me to mouse to the edges and have the "view" scroll around.

if you compile your quality sound driver and insert it into the kernel, you'll have reliable sound,

Oh, I agree completely that a quality sound driver in the kernel is reliable. The sound daemons for the X11 desktops aren't so great (arts for kde comes to mind). Of course, joe user compiling a sound driver for the kernel is an interesting thought (READ: not going to happen).

xfreee86 +xinerama works great for MULTI-monitor setups, not just dual-monitor setups.

I have tried both using xinerama and not using xinerama for my Matrox card. Xinerama gave better overall results, but liked to crash under certain applications. Without Xinerama, the crashes didn't occur, but I didn't get what I wanted across multiple screens. All this was done on Red Hat though. On Mandrake, it was setup for me by the installer, and it worked a lot nicer. I didn't check to see if it was using Xinerama or not.

Sorry if I come off as harsh

You did.

but I hate this type of thinking.

You hate thinking along the lines of "easy to use"? Remember, easy to use for an adept and a common user are tottally different things (and a lot of people have better things to do, the computer is just a tool to them).

Some people are so lazy, but expect the world of others. Parasites.

"Some people" as you put it, also cannot program. Like myself. You don't want me contributing to (insert project here), because the code would suck (which is why I left the comp sci program and went into admin instead). Obviously, "normal users" need a computer to do certain tasks (productivity apps, etc..), but cannot contribute. By your definition that makes them parasites, but they cannot do anything about that.

Yes, I can read man pages. Yes, I can use vi to edit the X config file. Yes, I edit apache's config in the same way. But I am in the field. The average office worker isn't. And at home, there is no help desk other than emails and newsgroups -- non-instantaneous help. (Users like instant help).

Re:Absolutely wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh, and by the way, ctl-alt-+ and ctl-alt-- changes your resolutions in X on-the-fly" Ok, this is a great fucking example of how retarded xwindows, kde/gnome and linux in general. How if the fuck is somebody new to linux supposed to figure out that ctl-alt-+ is going to change their resolution? This is what we call a fucking cheap hack and it should have been fixed ages ago. There should be a nice simple gui menu that allows the resolution to be changed. All that xwindows crap underneath everything is just going to prevent 90% of the public from every embracing linux seriously. Come on now guys, now just fucking fix it. Fix the fucking xwindows problem, with its shitty font rendering. It is complete bullshit. Sometimes it is better to start over the keep building on top of the garbage heap. Microsoft is just fucking laughing that the linux geeks and their pathetic attempts at building a desktop. Now go away and play with your toys and don't come back till its fixed! Now go!!

Re:Absolutely wrong

[novas007]

>> Oh, and by the way, ctl-alt-+ and ctl-alt-- changes your resolutions in X on-the-fly,

> As much as I love Linux/X11, I find the method you mentioned as less than desirable. Yes, it changes the resolution. It also leaves me with a virtual desktop size of the default resolution. Thus, to see all of the desktop at once is not possible, requiring me to mouse to the edges and have the "view" scroll around.

Upgrade to X 4.3 (or wait until your distro does it for you) :
"xrandr -s 1600x1200" switches the rez. Not just zooming like ctrl-alt-+ does. Try it.

Re:Absolutely wrong

[beakburke]

You know, I'm sick of all the complaining. It's time for people to act with some class and decency, instead of the typical whining and incessant carping that seems to consume people these days. This attitude isn't just about feature X in OSS either, you see it all around you. People that think that you, or the rest of the world owe them something. Just go watch a youth sporting event and you will likely find some obnoxious parent or coach acting in the same manner. If linux doesn't achive world domination, that's ok, really it is. Sit back and take a deep breath. All linux users wanted was a choice, and that choice seems to be getting better, getting better far faster than anything else I might add. You are too busy demanding the next thing to appreciate what you have and how far this whole thing has come (I say this as someone who has been using linux for only about 3 1/2 years). I'm not discouraging feedback, but whining and complaining about how much the developers of XYZ suck is a waste of your time and ours. If you want to suggest something, in a constructive manner, that's fine. You won't always get what you want when you want it, no one does, but that's just a fact of life that people need to deal with sooner or later. Unfortunately, our world seems to be full of people who don't realize this or can't seem to deal with life in a constructive, positive manner. Instead they choose to complain. "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face in marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." -TR Not everyone has to be a programmer, but it would help if we treated everyone involved with some respect. It's amazing how following one simple rule can make everyone's life a lot more enjoyable, isn't it?

Re:Absolutely wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats X Windowing System Mr. Gates

Re:Absolutely wrong

[zsau]

As much as I love Linux/X11, I find the method you mentioned as less than desirable. Yes, it changes the resolution. It also leaves me with a virtual desktop size of the default resolution. Thus, to see all of the desktop at once is not possible, requiring me to mouse to the edges and have the "view" scroll around.

OTOH, I would kill someone if they got rid of that. It's just shy of impossible to live with less than 1024x768 these days, but my screen is 800x600 max.

Try XRandR/XFree86 4.3.

Re:Absolutely wrong

[fucksl4shd0t]

You are too busy demanding the next thing to appreciate what you have and how far this whole thing has come (I say this as someone who has been using linux for only about 3 1/2 years).

Dude, I've only been at it for about a year now, and I've already seen HUGE leaps forward! I'm hooked.... :)

As a testimonial, I've spent the last 10 years or so writing music for fun and games, and I promised myself a long time ago that whenever I was able to record these songs I would. Linux and free software has made that possible for me. Check out my sig. :)

Windows couldn't do it for me. Period. Sure, I could have spent hundreds of dollars on some app that *might* have done it. Then I could've spent the next 3 months learning how to use it. Instead I've got two apps that make a killer combination, and both have user interfaces that are familiar to me (one of them uses the command line!).

Re:Absolutely wrong

[supergiovane]

When I first tried Linux (1997) I hadn't been able to get past root+boot disks (I am a dumbass, and I had problems with LBA for my IDE disk, if I remember well). It was a Slackware distro found on a book in the public library.

Then, three years ago I tried RedHat 6.1 without any installation problems. The first time that I started Gnome (the buggy beta version) and KDE1 I didn't believe what I was seeing: some usable (in Average Joe sense) environments when I thought Linux had only very little graphic apps. Since then a revolution had happened on the desktop side.

Yeah, I agree with the original post that if developers cooperated on only one project we would have had a great environment in 2 years of work rather than several good environments in 4 years. Thanks, I prefer choice.

Re:Absolutely wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

"Some people" as you put it, also cannot program. Like myself. You don't want me contributing to (insert project here), because the code would suck

Your trying to make a point, but perhaps you didn't think... There is more to a project than programming. I know for certain the Gentoo Linux project has a dozen different ways that you can contribute in, and only a few of them involve writing programs.

You can write documentation, test beta's and submit bugs, translating documentation (mostly require you feeding it through KBabel), writing ebuild scripts (thats not programming...:D), website coding/bug fixing. Even just installing the software and reporting success/failure is enough for some projects.

Everyone has to pitch in if we are to reap the benifits that Open Source offers us. It's not all programming.

And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[ShatteredDream]

I used to love Linux but I got sick and tired of how stuck in the past Linux is. KDE, GNOME, the various popular WMs, let's face it... they can't hold a candle to OSX on the desktop. I have no doubt that many will choose Linux because they're such cheapskates that they'd rather spend $500-$1500 for a PC running Linux than several thousand for a quality PowerMac or PowerBook. But those of us who spend more time using our systems than tinkering with them will probably almost always choose OSX over Linux. The simple reality is that Linux sucks as a desktop. Trying to make Linux a desktop OS is like trying to make an octapus by nailing more legs onto a dog.

Many of the crackheads that think Linux is a great desktop right now need a reality check. Linux doesn't:

• Easily and cleanly add new hardware devices on the fly in an interactive manner when necessary
• Autodetect and mount new partitions the way OSX and Windows do. When you add a new drive to OSX that it can read it's useable right then and there. With Linux you have to usually hack /etc/fstab
• Have a single, consistent or mostly consisten user interface.
• Make updating as easy as a few mouse clicks for John Q. Citizen.

There are more issues as well, not the least of which is the Linux developers' love affair with C and PERL (and occassionally C++). Most Linux users just don't get it. The average person using a computer makes a mouse look like it has the bravery of a Navy SEAL. If people get scared jumping from Office 2000 to Office XP then they'll be typically terrified of Windows->Linux. Apple is first and foremost a platform provider. If OpenOffice and other great OSS dominate its desktop then they really won't give a rat's ass. I'm sure that if Apple were not quite so much under Microsoft's thumb then they'd be actively engaged in porting OpenOffice. Linux won't liberate the desktop, OpenOffice and Chandler will. If you seriously do like Linux as a desktop then fine. There's no reason the market has to be controlled by any one UNIX be it Linux or OS X. Linux advocates need to realize though that in order for OSS to cover all of its bases, OS X must be a strong and viable platform. Every user that abandons the Microsoft plantation for a new UNIX running OO, etc is a user advancing the cause of personal freedom in computing.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

umm I take offense,
"us crackheads" are smart enough to add/edit stuff ourselves witch in reality if you know what you are doing is 10-20x faster than waiting on a stupid os wizard.

Add new drive:
echo /dev/sda1 /fire vfat \ rw,users,auto,showexec,umask=000,quiet 0 0 >> /etc/fstab
time: 2 seconds

sit and wait for gui
time: 2-5 minutes

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what world you live in. Most people are still using Office 97.

And woulnd't notice the difference if you sat them down in front of Office 2000, Office XP, Star Office, Open Office, Abiword + Gnumeric, or MS Works. Except their will be a few frustrating oddities, but nothing worse than they're used to trying to format an outline, or left align numbers on a spreadsheet.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

Linus works as a desktop for me. Linu works as a desktop for those who like to tinker and are willing to sacrifice GUI point'n'drool for speed and stability. OSX is NOT the answer. Apple has been losing to Microsoft for years and the battle is over. Hacking /etc/fstab? Adding a line in /etc/fstab takes less than 30 seconds and SUSE and Mandrake do it for you.
You say KDE can't hold a candle to OSX on the desktop, I say OSX can't keep up with KDE's speed, KDE is catching up with Apple's oh-so-important eye candy, and KDE is FREE.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

All of this bitching about Linux on the desktop is making me tired. Why don't you got try an older Linux distro like Redhat 6.2 or SUSE 7.3 and then compare it to the current offerings? Guess what? Linux gets better and better daily. AND YOU DON'T NEED PROPRIETARY HARDWARE TO RUN IT, UNLIKE A MAC! I like Macs and I understand brand loyalty but I don't let Sony, Acura, or BMW define the way I think.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[cmacb]

Having tried OS X for a while and liking it, I can't agree that it will "beat" Linux.

While using 10.1-10.1.5 I was pleased with the "beauty" of the thing as most people are. But when it came to running anything that didn't come pre-installed I didn't find it any more reliable, or easy to configure than a typical Windows machine.

I purchased SEVERAL peripheral devices and got most of them at an Apple store... just to be on the safe side. Even so, whether these devices would work or not was a crap-shoot.

Still I hung in there waiting for the promised benefits of Jaguar. When it came out I went and *purchased* a copy, even though I hadn't had my machine for 6 months yet.

Jaguar for me, and for many other people posting on the Apple forums was a total disaster. Not only did it provide few improvments that I could see, but the system was completely unstable.

Like so many other people at the Apple forums I wondered if maybe my hardware was at fault. People there have been advised to send their machines in for repair (at their expense) in order to cure Jaguar problems. Getting their machines back the glitches remain and they are out another $300. The level of support from what I can see is hardly any better than what a typical PC user would get from Microsoft and any name brand hardware vendor. You would at *least* expect with hardware and software comming from one company that there woul be no finger pointing about random lockups. But there is.

The happy ending to my story is that I used the unreliability of my iBook as an excuse to try out Yellow Dog Linux. I figured if *that* didn't work I'd take the machine back to the Apple store for another one.

That was 6 months ago and I don't think the machine has crashed or locked up once. I'm running Mozilla and Apache and PHP and all sorts of things that never worked right under OS X.

I prefer Evolution for email and calandar to anything OS X provided. I load picture from my camera into file folders with automatic thumbnail viewing. The KDE desktop looks as good as OS X in many respects and better in some too, plus it is more configurable than OS X is likely to be.

Updating is as easy as the OS X update program was. I type "apt-get update" followed by "apt-get upgrade" every week or two and its all taken care of. I could easily automate this, or make an icon out of it.

Did I have to study a bit to get all this stuff working? Yes I did. But I've spent far less time getting Linux to work the way I want and ultimatly succeeded whereas I spent far more time stuggling with my broken Jaguar and ultimately gave up. Which was the time better spent?

Maybe you're right and OS X will beat Linux, but to do so, Apple will have to make a quantum leap in support services. They will also have to do a much better job of herding hardware vendors into the OS X corral than they have so far. They'll have to do this without raising their prices, because PC prices continue to drop.

I can't make the math work for it. Maybe you can.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, a troll got a +4 interesting.

Macs are fine for the borderline retards with too much money.

Some of us just enjoy using Linux. Not cheap, not zealots. Whether Linux sucks on the desktop or not, depends on what you are using it for. If you're going to use it to browse the web, email, listen to some music, look at some pictures and play a few simple games( more people I know play the kind of games that are included with most distributions than shooters, RPG's and such) then it doesn't suck, it works great. If you need to run special apps, or play a lot of fancy games, it sucks.

BTW, OSX can shrivel up and die. Apple is no better than MS. If they could have made a decent OS without using BSD code, they would have. It was a matter of convenience. Not some noble gesture.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I can live with that...
Linux running forever in the background on servers,
MacOS X running on the desktop.
Both living harmoniously, sticking to standard protocols.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[BrokenHalo]

All of this bitching about Linux on the desktop is making me tired.

I agree. Linux has been on my desktop for quite a few years now, and I don't miss Windows one bit, and my Slackware setup has enough eye-candy on the desktop to make several Mac-heads envious. Sure, there are some more challenging things to learn if you want to get more out of the machine, but you can say that about any powerful tool.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[BrokenHalo]

Linus works as a desktop for me.

How do you get him to keep still?

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[defile]

If I wanted to run a crappy, proprietary UNIX on overpriced hardware I'd be using Solaris.

If I wanted to run a crappy, proprietary UNIX with a candy coated desktop on overpriced hardware I'd use MacOS X.

It's all about your needs, man. You've got to determine what's important to you.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[fucksl4shd0t]

umm I take offense, "us crackheads" are smart enough to add/edit stuff ourselves witch in reality if you know what you are doing is 10-20x faster than waiting on a stupid os wizard.

Add new drive: echo /dev/sda1 /fire vfat \ rw,users,auto,showexec,umask=000,quiet 0 0 >> /etc/fstab time: 2 seconds

sit and wait for gui time: 2-5 minutes

There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there's GNU/Linux.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[fucksl4shd0t]

Linus works as a desktop for me.

How do you get him to keep still?

Two answers:

1. Pay him.

2. Don't call him RMS/Linus.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

well keep using linux and a million .config files and just stfu. no one cares.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

you are a tool, but certainly not powerful

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[TheRaven64]

Trying to make Linux a desktop OS is like trying to make an octapus by nailing more legs onto a dog.

Actually, Linux isn't the problem. The Linux kernel is not a bad piece of software. The problem is X. X is a truly ancient solution to the problem of drawing windows on the screen. It was designed beck in the days when a graphical terminal was just that; a machine connected to a mainframe which had a graphical display instead of a textual one. X advocates claim that it has great network transparency. In a way, they are right, but the transparency is at too low a level. Compare X and MS Remote Desktop over a low-bandwidth link for an example. Modern features, like alpha blending are not supported by the X11 protocol, and adding 3d acceleration has to be done by hacking in an kludge of OpenGL, which destroys the network transparency.

There are some open source projects, like Fresco that aim at providing an alternative to X, but Apple have actually created one with Quartz Extreme. A lot of the problem with Linux is that it is living in the past, trying to recreate X/UNIX from decades ago. When they find a bit that's too antiquated to be useful, they hack it a bit until it looks kind-of modern.

Microsoft threw out DOS with NT (although they supported it until Windows Me), Apple threw out the old Mac OS with OS X. Th *nix crowd are still trying to adapt legacy ideas to modern computing. They will probably be able to for years to come, but eventually they will discover that you have to break backwards compatibility, or end up with a horrible kludge of aging ideas.

An aside: Have you noticed how many Linux users claim x86 is good, in spite of being a hideous architecture, because it's popular, but refuse to accept a parallel claim about Windows?

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[0x0d0a]

The problem is X.

Joy. More unwarranted X bashing.

X advocates claim that it has great network transparency. In a way, they are right, but the transparency is at too low a level.

Why?

Modern features, like alpha blending are not supported by the X11 protocol, and adding 3d acceleration has to be done by hacking in an kludge of OpenGL, which destroys the network transparency.

What, you mean the RENDER extension? And I've coded in OpenGL under X11, and I have no idea what you mean by "destroying the network transparency" -- OpenGL is quite transparent over the network. In some ways more so than X11 itself.

Apple have actually created one with Quartz Extreme.

Which isn't network transparent and uses an insane amount of resources. Less features, more resource usage...why is it good again?

When they find a bit that's too antiquated to be useful, they hack it a bit until it looks kind-of modern.

Oh, for Chrissake. OS X doesn't look like anything but a large collection of not particularly usable eye candy to me. So I guess it's all in the taste.

They will probably be able to for years to come, but eventually they will discover that you have to break backwards compatibility, or end up with a horrible kludge of aging ideas.

I've found that the merit of a design is in how long it can run before it has to go. Windows 9X, for instance, lasted a little over five years. The classic Mac OS lasted a good fifteen. UNIX is at about 30 and shows no signs of slowing down.

An aside: Have you noticed how many Linux users claim x86 is good, in spite of being a hideous architecture, because it's popular, but refuse to accept a parallel claim about Windows?

What, that there's benefits to using something popular? Sure there is. That doesn't mean that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks in all cases. Windows is popular, so it's easy to find software for, etc, etc, but it's expensive, somewhat buggy, and a pain to know what's going on in the internals. x86 is popular, and while the instruction set is old, it's the only real contender out there. Alpha's dead, SPARC doesn't kick ass any more, the (desktop) PowerPC may one day become important again but lost a huge amount of ground when Apple trusted Motorola instead of IBM to do development.

I don't think anyone loves the x86 instruction set. It's just that the best bang/buck processors currently out there happen to use it.

Re:And that is why OS X will ultimately beat Linux

[Seeker5528]

"When they find a bit that's too antiquated to be useful, they hack it a bit until it looks kind-of modern."

That is the benefit of having a standard for the X window system. The Xfree86 developers can hack , redesign, rewrite XFree86 as much as it takes to keep it up to date. As long as it complies with the standard for the X window system, it will be able to run applications that also conform to the standard.

Later, Seeker

No

[ece]

I wouldn't for your kind anyway

Collegiate?

[guero]

I went to college, heck it was eight or ten of the best years of my life! (you degree collectors out there know what I'm talking about) I don't see anything particularly collegiate about this distribution... no more than any other distro. CollegeLinux seems to be to Slackware what Knoppix is to Debian. Nothing spectacular or collegiate.

Go Penguins!

hehe

[revmoo]

Collegelinux?

So does it stay out late, drink a lot and not function well in the morning?

FreeBSD

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's not forget the alternative, FreeBSD, which is a better choice for students to learn anyways.

Slashdot jumped the shark on this one

[fartmaster]

No other slashdot submission has pissed me off more then this one.

YOU ARE SO FIRED! writes "It seems that the Swiss Robert Kennedy College (with the aptly named website) has released CollegeLinux, a Linux distribution based off of Slackware, to the public. If only my employees could've used this in school - I wouldn't have to fire them so much! See the interview with the dean of the school for more information."

Let's recap it -
YOU ARE SO FIRED!!. If only my employees could've used this in school.

I can just say that this bullshit additude towards different people pisses me off. Don't fire them. Teach them. Just because someone learns something different does not mean that they can not learn something different. Don't be such a total fucking asshole towards people and slashdot should be higher then posting this crap.

Re:Slashdot jumped the shark on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, Fartmaster, I think you might be taking his username a little too seriously...

Re:Slashdot jumped the shark on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't say this post pissed me off, it just impressed me as a rather piss-poor attempt at humor. You get used to those around here after a while.

Re:Slashdot jumped the shark on this one

[BitHive]

Just because someone learns something different does not mean that they can not learn something different.

Is there an echo in here? Slashdot is higher th a n a kite.

Re:Slashdot jumped the shark on this one

[fucksl4shd0t]

Only one reasonable response to this post.

YOU ARE SO FIRED.

Re:Slashdot jumped the shark on this one

[plugger]

Perhaps he'd be better firing the guy who keeps hiring the wrong people.

Re:Slashdot jumped the shark on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

School is for learning. A job is for doing. When I hire someone, unless I specified in the job description that it is a paid training position then I don't expect to have to train someone. End of story.

swiss family robinson college?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, I'll have to apply there.

You missed something

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

Bastille is not a distro

lose all credibility

[buddha42]

Furthermore, I think that Slackware package system is much more reliable them 'rpm'.

You gotta be kidding me

Re:lose all credibility

[Phroggy]

Why do you think Slackware's package system is not reliable? Certainly it has its faults, but from my experience it has been quite reliable.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Wowzer

[Anonymous Coward]

Why linux in my car.
Running my home theater.
Making my coffee.
Turning on my bath.
Churning my remote.
Changing my sheets.
Running my telephone.
Plus, plus, plus...

Of course.

What a bunch of idiots

[Anonymous Coward]

What a bunch of idiots

"we chose slackware because we believe slackware offers a better packaging system that rpm"

hahahaha it's not EVEN a packaging system that tgz shit. no dependency cheching no shit. just tared gziped archives.

And the most funny thing, those slackware users have "points" like "with rpm you get all kinds of dependency problems", when they have no idea

a) adding programs without their dependencies is WASTE of disk space
b) rpm can be forced to be installed without dependencies, which will make it as bad as slackware's packaging

I don't use rpm, I'm a hardcore debian user, but people must learn the BASICS before creating distributions.

It's more than a few lines; they need OF drivers

[Anonymous Coward]

Often the only difference between a Mac version and the PC version of these cards is the price$$$ and a few lines in the ROM which the MacOS drivers search for before accepting the card.

Actually, cards that work on a Mac need to have an F-code driver in ROM that OpenFirmware can read. So it's more than a few lines' difference.

Alright!

[Repugnant_Shit]

I always wanted a computer that won't turn on till 2 in the afternoon.

blahblah same old shit about X will beat Y.. Snore

[Anonymous Coward]

I like Linux as a desktop... _without_ X11. Keep the fancy-schmacy GUI crap out of my way, I get a lot more done without it. And as far as the so-called user-friendly interface stuff goes... I just wonder what "normal" people (non-geeks) did back before Windows existed? (that's a rhetorical question, you numbnutz!)

Linux drivers & Windows drivers

[grolschie]

All the drivers I have had to download, all have either a "make install" or "./install" that auto-magically makes things work. I'd say that I've had more problems with Windows drivers. Lets not mention the VIA 4n1's, aye? One lots stuff a system so bad, so really needed a clean install to fix - or hours of detangling in Safe Mode.

look'n feel?

[myspys]

am i the only one getting the impression that the developer of this dist is some 14 year old geek that think having a matrix-background and then putting some weird skin onto xmms is cool?

i mean, grow up
get a clean interface, and make it easy for people to use

if i had never seen linux before seeing that, would i think "that look interesting"? no.

Skolelinux . A Debian school Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Skolelinux is based on Debian. Some of the Skolelinux developers are Debian developers. The new Debian installer is being activly developed and tested on skolelinux and main Debian.
Skolelinux is non-profit.

Skolelinux aims at being ready out of the box. Skolelinux uses LTSP (Linux Terminal Server Project) for thin clients. Skolelinux has out of box configurating for mail, webmail, dns, proxy, LTSP, dhcp, nfs, web, ldap, and more.
Skolelinux has automatic hardware detection out of the box. X, network and other hardware usually work out of the box.

Skolelinux has mainly been developed in Norway, but there are growing intrests in Latvia, Germany, Sri Lanka and other countries. More and more schools in Norway are converting from Microsoft these days. More and more people start to contribute to the project.

The norwegian goverment is partly backing a non-profit effort to make a distribution for schools.

A big thank you to the Skolelinux team!

Re:Hey, shitheads!

[Anonymous Coward]

2+2=5!

Radiohead's next album is going to rock.

Questions...

[Smoking]

I have a serious doubt about their ability to build a Linux distro:
The website is completely insecure, they are loading pages from the filesystem straight from the URL...
eeeeeekk!

For example: http://www.college.ch/content.php?link=/etc/passwd brings you their passwd file (unused as its a MacOS X server, but nevertheless quite scary...)

Re:Questions...

[Phroggy]

Wow. Yeah, if their web site is built by the same people who built their Linux distro, I'd avoid it too.

How hard is it to at least deny any path containing a slash? Sheesh.

Re:Questions...

[Anonymous Coward]

even more fun...

http://www.college.ch/content.php?link=/Library/We bServer/rkc/Documents/content.php

Multnomah County Educational Service District

[Baloo Ursidae]

The Multnomah County, Oregon ESD already has a Linux distribution optimized for use in public schools. Microsoft apparently didn't really check around before they threatened MESD with a MS license audit. This thoroughly upset the locals, who rallied thier support. Microsoft lost the game of chicken when they stopped smoking crack and realised threatening a broke school district kills your PR and loses customers.

Cool

[Penguin Follower]

Interesting... I'll have to look into that.

Ack! Drivers in the kernel???

[nurb432]

They should all be modules, not monolithic in the kernel.

Ever hear of bloat? Having every driver known to man in the kernel would create a monster.

And having modules saves newbies from having to recompile to insert 'just what they need', and hope it doesn't hose it totally.

Not all people can manage to compile a kernel, plus if you want to save on drive space, you dont install things such as GCC... so you are screwed in that case.

Ooops!!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's ugly as hell!!!! I know i can change it, but Default Matters!!

Re:congrats, YOU ARE SO FIRED!

[Anonymous Coward]

So who is this YOU ARE SO FIRED! guy?

Let's find out.

Because its very BSDish

[Lawrence_Bird]

and probably the most so of the vast universe of linux distros. Does this make it better? Thats for you to decide, but to me consistency and building upon what was already a good foundation seems like a good thing.

Peanut-9.5

[Anonymous Coward]

Peanut-9.5 was released yesterday, runs pretty darn good, and has lots of software for a single CDrom distro

First Ninnle Post!

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect that this new distro won't be anything like as good as Ninnle Linux.

DW?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that Arthur the Aardvark's little bratty sister?

"Crazy Bus! Crazy Bus! Riding on a crazy bus!"

Re:Ack! Drivers in the kernel???

[Angry White Guy]

Actually, you should use the modules to test the hardware, then compile the kernel with only the drivers you need, and one with LKM on, and one with LKM off (Default). When you add new hardware, you reboot into the lkm-enabled kernel, load the proper modules, recompile the kernel for the new hardware, one with LKM, one without, and schedule a reboot.

By the same token, you should wear a seatbelt when riding in a car, but not everybody does.

Not really!

[sonamchauhan]

> Oh, and by the way, ctl-alt-+ and ctl-alt-- changes your resolutions in X on-the-fly,
But as the other threads note, until X 4.3 (wasn't it recently released?) you ended up the virtual screen problem.

> if you compile your quality sound driver and insert it
Provided the user *knows* his hardware details, and how to compile and insert the driver... (but I think Linux has decent sound config tools currently, no?)

> xfreee86 +xinerama works great for MULTI-monitor setups, not just dual-monitor setups.
I know grandparent poster said "dual monitor", but Windows has had *multi*-monitor support for quite some time - Windows 98 and Windows NT 4.0 had it(at least). And its simple: in Windows 2000, I just install a PCI video card, reboot and Windows automatically 'extends' my desktop to the new monitors.

The original poster does make a valid point - that Linux is only now approaching the level of usability required for use by the general population that, say, Windows possesses. And Linux would have achieved this level of usability faster if development skills were concentrated in certain areas (for example, the issues above). However, Linux is a free OS and such things can't be forced. Well, unless someone chips in with funding -- like the German government is doing with KDE development IIRC. :)

Re:Not really!

[Seeker5528]

"The original poster does make a valid point - that Linux is only now approaching the level of usability required for use by the general population that, say, Windows possesses."

And the counter point was that Linux is reaching that level of usability and the recently released XFree86 4.3 helps address some of the remaining issues.

"And Linux would have achieved this level of usability faster if development skills were concentrated in certain areas (for example, the issues above). However, Linux is a free OS and such things can't be forced. Well, unless someone chips in with funding -- like the German government is doing with KDE development IIRC."

As you said Linux is a free OS. Unpaid developers are going to work on projects they have an interest in or that help them do their "real" job. Even if you just look at the different projects that accomplish the same thing , it's better to have 3 groups of developers who can work together and get things done then a single group of developers that can't agree on what direction a project should be going.

The example of the German government funding KDE development highlights the usability point. Linux distrobutions are reaching the level of usablility required for the desktop so you have an increase in the amount of money that is being spent to take that usability to an even higher level along with the utilities and applications they need /wish to have.

Previously in this thread drivers were mentioned. It does not give an accurate reflection of the driver situation to compare running setup.exe in Windows to compiling a driver in linux. The accurate reflection is that more hardware is supported in Windows then in linux, big suprise!, end of story.

As someone who has to deal with driver installations gone wrong I have to say the rollback feature in XP is pretty nice in situations where it can be used and the "hit F8 during boot and choose "last known good configuration"" has also proved helpful. Having said that, generally speaking I have a low opinion of the whole (hardware management/driver management) process in Windows.

Where I see Linux distrobutions having a real advantage, when you put aside the issues of driver installation and the range of hardware supported, and one of the major points of developing an open platform is... When I buy hardware I want to base my dicision on the hardware without having to concern myself about the bundled software. If I buy a printer I don't want to be forced to deal with printer control software that behaves oddly and only works with that printer. I don't want to be forced to use a mixer that was bundled with the soundcard to control all my speakers. And I don't want to be forced to use the viewing software that came with the TV card. Etc.... Etc....

Later, Seeker

Can be a good argument, can be a bad argument.

[OS24Ever]

Let's approach a computer like say, oh, 80% of the world of computer users do.

They want it to work. They want to turn it on, they want to do stuff, and they want to turn it off. They want their kids to 'learn' on it and they want to do their checkbook on it. Maybe a bit more.

They also want it to be inexpensive.

They don't want 'choices' like this little penguin is painted red and this little penguin is painted blue. They don't want to know that this, they don't care and think that makes computers too complicated.

See, I've polled my neighbors. Because when they come over, they see a 'a whole lot of computers' and are just shocked that I have that many. When they see my wife's iMac and are shocked that she has her own computer.

Talking to them, a low end iMac would be perfect. It's easy to use, you just plug in your keyboard and go, and it'd manage photographs, video cameras, and everything. If they want to get that cable modem and plug it in, that'd work too.

That $299 Lindows PC won't do that. Not that easily. It also won't come with any form of support that they could call that would help them out for the first fiew months of owning their new computer.

Plus, it doesn't look as cool. That's the honest truth, asthetics matter. not the neon lighting clear side case kinda of asthetics, but the cool factor of a floating LCD on a base.

Expandability? Who needs it. That machine will probably last them longer than their next car in some instances (3-5 years). Who cares if they don't have the next best feature, the latest version of whatsit, or anything else.

That is what I think most linux advocates don't understand. They need it to just work, and just work well. The only people that need upgradability are the extreme gamers, the geeks, and the wannabes

Re:Can be a good argument, can be a bad argument.

[alienw]

If what you're saying is true, then why does 96% of the population buy Windows machines? They usually look ugly, work poorly, and aren't very upgradable. I think your argument falls flat on its face. People buy computers that are well-marketed (like that Dell dude), cheap (no, Macs aren't cheap), and win at the bigger-is-better numbers game (which Macs certainly don't). Aesthetics and usability are a concern only AFTER you bought a computer. And most of the people who dislike their new PC won't switch to Apple because they are not familiar with it and don't want to experiment. They would rather buy another Windows PC than a different computer.

Linux has potential assuming that it will become more usable and somehow get marketed. Apple has potential if they sell a Mac with numbers (clock speed, megs of RAM, etc) identical to a $799 PC for $799. Few would buy a more expensive machine merely because it looks better.

Hey, you forgot some numbers...

[sonamchauhan]

Add new drive:
echo /dev/sda1 /fire vfat \ rw,users,auto,showexec,umask=000,quiet 0 0 >> /etc/fstab
time: 2 seconds

time to learn above-mentioned commands and how to apply them: 2 weeks to 2 years (variable)

sit and wait for gui
time: 2-5 minutes

time to "learn" above-mentioned operation: 2 minutes
time spent on "real job": priceless ;-)

try this!

[dylan.ucd]

total lack of security:
try this for fun--
sets up an infinite loop

http://www.college.ch/content.php?link=/Library/ We bServer/rkc/Documents/content.php

Re:try this!

[Anonymous Coward]

guess you didnt see my post:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=55601&cid=54 18 547

VoyNetworks Linux Distribution

[JWSmythe]

This sounds familiar.. We've put together our own "distribution" based on Slackware here too.. We made a 160Mb ISO image, so any of our people can take any machine, and make a server out of it in 5 minutes.. I say 5 minutes, because that's the typical time it takes from when you plug the power cord in, to when you shut it off.

It includes all the libraries, utilities, and server parts that we require for just about everything, with our own RC files and tweaks. It includes tight monolithic kernels for hardware platforms we use frequently (such as the Asus 1400r's).

Installation is exactly this:

1) Plug power cord in.
2) Set BIOS up for normal server operation (change "Halt On Errors" to none, "AC Power Loss" to "On", and boot order to "Floppy, CD, HDA".
3) Insert CD and boot.
4) Log in, mount CD, and type "install.os". Instructions were on the boot screen.
5) reboot.

Step 4 needs fine tuning. This is the first ISO we've made from Linux, so it still has the Slackware root image. install.os is on the cd part..

I've never really felt that something like this really needs to be redistributed though. Is there much of a demand for something like this?

We started doing this years ago, because I was tired of installing, then taking 1/2 hour to make all our changes before we could use it.. Now we just install and put the machines in a pile. When they're delegated, we put them in at the colo, assign an IP, and they're done. The developer or site manager (usually me) can make whatever customizations they'd like.

We used to include a web server, but since versions of Apache change frequently enough, and everyone wants something different, I stopped doing that now. We use no less than 4 varieties of web servers, depending on who's working on it and what they want done.

I was thinking of putting this, along with some of our interesting custom tools (like BoT, our monitoring software) up on a site. I guess this is a good time to ask if there's interest in it.. :)

Re:VoyNetworks Linux Distribution

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice website. Can't get more simple than "nothing".

Re:VoyNetworks Linux Distribution

[JWSmythe]

hehe. Ya, there's nothing to be had there. :) I didn't really want to put the link to a porn site right up on there, ya know?

Re:Hey guys I found a fast T-3 server to download

[Anonymous Coward]

No shit..you, in your infinite genius, managed to find the link to the mirror right off their own page. The very first link, in fact. Good fucking job, you irritating karma-whore.

Nice touch on the imitation job though, although I don't think Eric Krout is someone you'll want to be imitating.

Secret content

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.college.ch/content.php?link=ht tp://www.tubby-bitch.com/new/wtf/swiss.htm

Re:YOU COMPLETELY STUPID DUMBFSCK!!

[Elbereth]

Seriously? Well, thanks for the correction. However, I have no intention of dying.

How do you install this bugger??

[Travoltus]

I have a SCSI CD-ROM (and I've got 4 EIDE hard drives, no room for a IDE CD-ROM) off an Adaptec AIC-7850 PCI SCSI Controller Card.

Setting up the PC to boot from SCSI doesn't work on this system (for some reason the SCSI card doesn't take over until an actual driver calls on it).

So how do I get the darn install process going??

Check out FSEDU Free Software in Education

[mdupont]

The Free Software in education Project
is looking for your help :
FreeSoftwareInEducation Wiki

We are looking for new members, and are collecting stories about your experience with free software in Education.

Re:Check out FSEDU Free Software in Education

[minddog]

This is a key component to the future of Free Software in any setting. If students and other young people learn of the benefits to using Free Software they might think again what things like the MS EULA hold them for. Knowledge is like a virus, you hit the nest and it just spreads out to ever branch in the world. I will support this as much as I can as a student, and hopefully get friends of mine involved in my local area. We all should do the same, spread the word, Free Software isn't going anywhere but in our education system!

Last Post!

[alpg]

The difference between art and science is that science is what we
understand well enough to explain to a computer. Art is everything else.
-- Donald Knuth, "Discover"

- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...