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Linux in High School Labs
lexbaby writes "The Salt Lake Tribune has a story about how Logan High School (Logan, Utah) is using Linux in their student programming lab. The main use is for robotics. There is the old discussion about if Linux is truly cheaper to operate in the long run. Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch?" I hope some of the students involved post pictures of the robots they're building in class.
"We've been talking about doing this for some time, so we just decided to drive off the cliff."
Linux will have a much better corporate future if tomorrows business execs actually learn how to use it.
It also warms my heart to see fewer tax payer dollars going into Microsoft's pocket.
Debian runs on just about every configuration for x86 and has a good support for drivers, it is definitely cheaper in the longrun if you have a lot of older machines. Though that does assume that the individuals setting up Debian know what they are doing. If they don't, they certainly will run into a thick brick wall since Debian has a learning curve that shoots up like there is no tomorrow.
I thought M$ admitted that they couldn't compete with the Linux's TCO? They switched the page claiming a lower cost with a page outlining the benefits of windows over linux.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
It's a good thing to introduce the students to a Linux solution as they will most likely run into one in the future, as MS products actually aren't used everywhere. Plus, even if it might take one more tech due to the fact that students screw up more, it's most likely going to be cheaper because of the HUGE MS licensing fees... /040
granted I graduated a couple years ago, but I came from a decently funded district...
We had a single person that took care of ALL the computers at all the schools. He was a Mac person and most of the computers were Macs (except the libraries which had IBMs and in my senior year I believe they replaced all the Mac Classics w/IBMs)
So if a single person is going to be administering these systems anyway, I don't see how it could be more expensive in the long run (considering that there has to be at least one administrator/staff member that knows Linux).
It's going to be cheaper to share Mac/Windows files, it's going to be cheaper for hardware, and software costs are going to go down (as far as Windows is concerned).
Apple made a big footprint in schools, why not Linux?
How many schools already do this or have been doing it for some time? Is this newsworthy? I think not.
How long will it be before they get audited by Microsoft? Is this even legal anymore?
Forrealthough, I applaud this effort. Linux is excellent for learning. Anything which can be torn down completely and put together by its pieces is good to show how such a complex thing can be constructed. Sometimes the whole picture is too bid to grasp, but understanding just 1 module is not.
goodlookinout.
We setup linux in one of our labs using old computers that otherwise were useless. Using ltsp [ltsp.org], we managed to make usable workstations for word processing and internet access. Based on our experience, linux definitely was cheaper than the expensive windows terminals and citrix licenses.
My school uses nothing but Win2K. It takes 5 minutes to log in, and all is disjointed. The sad thing is that they have just lost their last Linux server, which says a lot.
If you're happy and you know it read my blog
Aaaannnd... cue the AC posting a goatse.cx link... action!
"Microsoft had us do an audit last year that took two weeks out of my schedule," Rugg said. "That's two week's work of taxpayers' money to satisfy Microsoft."
Then:
Weeks said more experiments will have to be done before Linux could be considered for schoolwide use.
Too bad they didn't do such rigorous "experiments" before they decided to go with Microsoft. If they had, then the Microsoft audit wouldn't have been such a surprise.
--sex
Very popular slashdot journal for adul
This question comes up all the time. Is Linux a viable solution to use for $_?
The answer is always yes. It's a viable alternative for database servers, for number crunching, for scanning the skies for aliens, to calculating water flow, and yes for high school programming labs. IN fact definatelly for high school programming labs. I think anyone who start programming on any *nix machine, will have a better understanding of how to prgram on windoze if they need to anyway.
/* oops I accidentally made a comment, sorry */
Also check out The Linux Terminal Server Project K-12, a cool project devoted to this sort of thing.
You are not the customer.
We use Linux in the robots labs at my University's CS department. Because it's robotics we're talking about here, the cost savings aren't significant as the hardware is much more expensive than the software, ratio-wise. The benefit of using Linux is its 'hackability'.
E000-VB14-G8RY
I see a problem with the corporate linux vendors being too dependent on selling support. Would that make them hesitant to develop a turnkey network distribution that could be set up to keep a school humming with minimal effort?
It will probably take a specialized, targeted distro to really break the Microsoft monopoly in schools.
The way you used to be able to set up a simple AppleTalk network should be the goal for a modern classroom OS.
___
Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.
When I was in high school we programmed on MS-DOS (both ways in the snow!)
Some command-line adventures would be good for kids these days.
If I had something intelligent to say, I would have said it.
The hundreds of thousands (millions?) of dollars that public schools pay to license MS software could be put to better use. Linux can enable this.
Then there are the benefits of training tomorrow's tech workers in an open software environment...
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
Linux Could Become Inexpensive Alternative to Proprietary Systems
BY MARSHALL THOMPSON
SPECIAL TO THE TRIBUNE
LOGAN -- A northern Utah computer science teacher is setting up a programming lab that lets his students learn more for less money.
Russell Weeks, a member of the math department at Logan High School, has removed the traditional operating system from his computer programming lab and replaced it with a free Linux-based program.
"We had some concerns about the cost of Microsoft and having the flexibility of changing what kind of software you want to run," Weeks says. "We've been talking about doing this for some time, so we just decided to drive off the cliff."
That cliff is the line between what computer types call proprietary software and open-source software. Proprietary software must be bought, licensed and upgraded regularly. Windows XP and Mac OS X are both proprietary. Linux, and versions of Linux like Red Hat and SuSE, are free, flexible and often more powerful.
Logan High students have adjusted well to Linux.
"I have to turn off the light to let them know it's time to go home," says Weeks, who runs the computer lab after school. "Sometimes their parents come in to get them."
Students have been working on programming autonomous robots since last spring. Some students take their robots to competitions. One robot, outfitted with a small camera, will monitor an aquarium and be controlled over the Internet.
Weeks obtained grants for the robots, but didn't have a large budget for software.
Many students have asked to put a Linux-based operating system on their home computer. In such a case, Weeks could simply give them a copy of any software they want -- it's free.
"[Linux] is the wave of the future," said Mark Rugg, a computer technician for Logan City School District. "Due to budgeting constraints and licensing issues, Linux seems to be the only viable system."
However, there is more to consider.
"There are some hidden costs," Weeks said. "It requires some more expertise to get it up and running. I think my wife would say it's more expensive because I spend a lot of time here trying to get things done."
Rik Stallings, Logan School District computer technician, said the district pays about $45 for Microsoft software for each of the more than 500 computers at Logan High, for a yearly average of $22,500.
But experts disagree about which system is cheaper in the long run. Linux software is free, but technical support is expensive. According to Linuxworld.com, a Linux operator would earn an annual salary of about $65,000, while a Windows operator might make $45,000 -- costs a school district would bear.
Roberto Mello, a founding member of the Free Software and Linux Club at Utah State University, said Linux is still cheaper.
"One Linux operator can manage 45 computers while a Windows operator can manage only 10 because it's harder," Mello said.
Linux-philes also say that it maximizes the efficiency of slower computers, which could be helpful to a school that receives used computers. Proponents also say that Linux crashes less than other formats so it is cheaper to maintain.
Still, Mello says cost and efficiency are not the real issues. "The freedom to study and modify is the most important part of open-source software."
Computer technicians also enjoy being free of licensing agreements and random audits. School districts using proprietary software may be asked at any time to conduct an audit. The technicians have to match up all the computers with a license number for each piece of software that is installed. This becomes even more difficult when computers are donated with unregistered software already installed.
"Microsoft had us do an audit last year that took two weeks out of my schedule," Rugg said. "That's two week's work of taxpayers' money to satisfy Microsoft."
More and more school districts are looking to Linux in the future. A few schools in Washington and California have made the switch and reported large savings. The French Ministry of Education announced in October that it will be installing Linux and free software in public schools.
Weeks said more experiments will have to be done before Linux could be considered for schoolwide use. Still, he and his students are enjoying themselves: "The students are just so tickled about it."
with all of the budget cuts, why wouldn't system administrators for school districts not be intrested in putting linux on computer networks?
Now obviously there are some compatability issues(microsoft office, etc). But in my area.. a grand total of zero schools go to the alternative route of using linux..
Selling software wont make you money, selling a service will.
I think this is a great step towards educating technology students about platforms other than Windows. I think its even more interesting that they are doing robotics in high school. We had a similar program at the high school I went to where we did all sorts of stuff with electronics from robots to electronic repair. The courses counted towards credit with the local university. The program eventually grew to groom students into network engineers working on getting them prepped and ready for their Cisco certifications (maybe a few others at this point). Its good to see that with all the criticism of public schools, that some are still scrapping together enough money to do some interesting projects.
When I was in high school the programming that we did was all done by telnetting into a Linux box and using GCC. This proved to be cheaper for the school district in terms of licenses for compilers (zero cost). This way we were able to keep the costs for computer science courses separate from the costs for maintaining a computer lab. Also, using Linux (and before that some form of UNIX) for computer science put me lightyears ahead of those who had never touched the command line in introductory college CS courses.
Here in Arkansas, the education system is facing major problems. The biggest problem is that schools are under-funded. The next big problem is the lack of technology in the classrooms (and even some schools).
Hardware comes cheap enough now and Linux is a good alternative to expensive software. I know that it does take a person with reasonable skills to implement a true Linux solution, but I would have to imagine having 1 person doing this would be more cost effective than licensing a lot of costly M$ programs.
Just my humble opinion....
MunITioN
"A mind is a terrible thing to lose"
because children are naturally anti-authority. Microsoft is like Cocacola company, Mcdonalds and every other mega corp, and its values are diametrically opposed to the new (next) generation. Witness the global protests against war last week and you have a glimpse of the world in ten years. Strong anti capitalistic sentiments are being expressed worldwide, and while Microsoft make inroads into government contracts they are losing out on the battle for hearts and minds of the people. The front lines are the schools, and if schools no longer have Microsoft O/S then children won't be fooled into thinking MCSE is a viable education.
Do you need a website upgrade?
The TCO in this environment should be far lower then a Microsoft equivalent. The operating system is free, there are no licenses, and no fees for the purchase of the renewal of licenses for Windows based development software. The support overhead should be non-existant, as the school district IT staff should just set them all up as terminals, or can have images handy for quick ghosting (if needs be).
but what software are they using to control the robots? I assume it's an out of the box solution, since the article said that the students were programming the robots to act autonomously, and not building everything from the ground up (i assume the article would make a bigger deal out of it if that were the case, but maybe that's just because I would). In any case, the choice of computerrobot communication software could easily be the cause of the jump if the out of box solution is not available for win32 platform (or just doesn't work as well as it does on linux, as was the case with the system I've been using recently)
I learned C++ programming at my public high school in a linux lab 3 years ago. I still prefer jed over vi or emacs because it was what we used and it worked well.
-Anti-brian
There are a pile of registry keys in the win32 registry that would help smooth migration to linux. GPL software desperately needs tools to audit MS Windows systems for windows license compliance and to smooth migration to GPL software such as GNU/Linux.
/.), software packages installed, and hardware
(for driver needs) could all be easily extracted from the Registry and other places.
For example, all the network settings, Outlook Express mail settings, time zones, IE favorites and cookies for major sites (e.g. Nytimes &
If this were to be complete, it should also grab the passwords for logins and email accounts.
Just a thought.
Mac Refugee, Paper MCSE, Linux Wanna be
Unfortunatly there are some "programming" or computer teachers that can barely handle windows. I think a student led linux movement probably has more of a chance of getting anywhere. We all know the average kid can handle computers better than the average adult. Can't figure out how to get yoru VCR to stop flashing "12:00"? Give your kid the remote and stand back...
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch?
Yes of course it is. Some people says students should be tought to use the software being used in the "real life". Why? If the students learn to acomplish the same task with cheaper software, how could that be bad?
But much rather than sticking with one choice of software, I'd see students trying a few different systems, so they can learn what are the differences and similarities between them, and they can learn how to learn using a new system, and they can make up their own minds about what they like and dislike. Because you cannot teach them how to use the software they are going to find themselves with in a few years, but you can theach them how to learn.
So let them try Linux, Unix, Windows, BSD, OSX, and let them find the best for each task.
Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
This immediately brought to mind a Far Side strip, with a kid presenting his shop project for grading, some huge and hideous creation. He approaches the shop instructor from behind and says, "My project is ready for grading now Mr. Bignose. I'm talking to you, squidbrain."
Taking over the world with Linux bots... Hmm.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
YASLS!! (Yet Another Linux Successfull Story)..
Linux Could Become Inexpensive Alternative to Proprietary Systems
BY MARSHALL THOMPSON
LOGAN -- A northern Utah computer science teacher is setting up a programming lab that lets his students learn more for less money.
Russell Weeks, a member of the math department at Logan High School, has removed the traditional operating system from his computer programming lab and replaced it with a free Linux-based program.
"We had some concerns about the cost of Microsoft and having the flexibility of changing what kind of software you want to run," Weeks says. "We've been talking about doing this for some time, so we just decided to drive off the cliff."
That cliff is the line between what computer types call proprietary software and open-source software. Proprietary software must be bought, licensed and upgraded regularly. Windows XP and Mac OS X are both proprietary. Linux, and versions of Linux like Red Hat and SuSE, are free, flexible and often more powerful.
Logan High students have adjusted well to Linux.
"I have to turn off the light to let them know it's time to go home," says Weeks, who runs the computer lab after school. "Sometimes their parents come in to get them."
Students have been working on programming autonomous robots since last spring. Some students take their robots to competitions. One robot, outfitted with a small camera, will monitor an aquarium and be controlled over the Internet.
Weeks obtained grants for the robots, but didn't have a large budget for software.
Many students have asked to put a Linux-based operating system on their home computer. In such a case, Weeks could simply give them a copy of any software they want -- it's free.
"[Linux] is the wave of the future," said Mark Rugg, a computer technician for Logan City School District. "Due to budgeting constraints and licensing issues, Linux seems to be the only viable system."
However, there is more to consider.
"There are some hidden costs," Weeks said. "It requires some more expertise to get it up and running. I think my wife would say it's more expensive because I spend a lot of time here trying to get things done."
Rik Stallings, Logan School District computer technician, said the district pays about $45 for Microsoft software for each of the more than 500 computers at Logan High, for a yearly average of $22,500.
But experts disagree about which system is cheaper in the long run. Linux software is free, but technical support is expensive. According to Linuxworld.com, a Linux operator would earn an annual salary of about $65,000, while a Windows operator might make $45,000 -- costs a school district would bear.
Roberto Mello, a founding member of the Free Software and Linux Club at Utah State University, said Linux is still cheaper.
"One Linux operator can manage 45 computers while a Windows operator can manage only 10 because it's harder," Mello said.
Linux-philes also say that it maximizes the efficiency of slower computers, which could be helpful to a school that receives used computers. Proponents also say that Linux crashes less than other formats so it is cheaper to maintain.
Still, Mello says cost and efficiency are not the real issues. "The freedom to study and modify is the most important part of open-source software."
Computer technicians also enjoy being free of licensing agreements and random audits. School districts using proprietary software may be asked at any time to conduct an audit. The technicians have to match up all the computers with a license number for each piece of software that is installed. This becomes even more difficult when computers are donated with unregistered software already installed.
"Microsoft had us do an audit last year that took two weeks out of my schedule," Rugg said. "That's two week's work of taxpayers' money to satisfy Microsoft."
More and more school districts are looking to Linux in the future. A few schools in Washington and California have made the switch and reported large savings. The French Ministry of Education announced in October that it will be installing Linux and free software in public schools.
Weeks said more experiments will have to be done before Linux could be considered for schoolwide use. Still, he and his students are enjoying themselves: "The students are just so tickled about it."
The GHCA (Greater Houlton Christian Academy) has a nice Linux based lab too. They say they saved a lot of money doing it this way, which seems pretty obvious... Their webpage is here
People should quit spending so much time talking about how low cost Linux is to use. If thats all that mattered, people whould be using it exclusively, wouldnt they? especially in schools where money is always tight. Its this type of news which is holding the Linux and other free UNIX vairants back by making them look "cheap". There are too many people who believe you get what you pay for. What really matters is how a platform can make your life easier.
looks like we made short work of their Linux install.
appears the math dept. page (dept. responsible for their being written up for using Linux) has been slashdotted already.
in only 10 minutes by my clock.
There is the old discussion about if Linux is truly cheaper to operate in the long run. Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch?
I dont know about schools in US. In India, an entire undergraduate programming intro lab (where we were taught Unix, C, C++, Shell Scripting and Perl) were 30-40 386 boxen used as dumb terminals for a behemoth running Linux. Contrary to what you would believe the machine was fast enough to support 35 students programming (in text mode) vi, emacs and running gcc.
The lab was cheap, the 386 boxen had a new lease of life we ended up being great C, C++ programmers. More importantly, learned to love Unix. Was Linux cheap for introducing C, C++, Perl and Unix ? Surely !
We use redhat/mandrake/freebsd in my comp tech class in highschool... i installed these O/S's on about 5 computers and run ftp/http/dhcp servers off linux. whats the big deal?
The article states 45 for the Linux admin and 10 for the Windows admin. I mean come on...I manage 45 Windows nodes now and know several people who manage 100+ nodes. I am no windows zealot (we have BSD file servers) but sheesh if your paying your admin $45k+ a year (again from the article) he/she should be able to manage more than 10 nodes.
...is as a platform on which one installs an ICA client for connectivity to the centrally managed Citrix farm. All the apps, none of the localized headache.
my highschool uses windows everywhere and does a horrible job with the network (netware without using zen, which they have licenses for). Ive been in computer science for 3 years and instead of dealing with turbo c++ 4.5 and codewarrior I brought in cygwin and started using g++ for the projects and such. People started seeing the benefits of crazy stuff like 32bit integers and the STL so now we at least use Visual. My teaher was suprisingly receptive to linux though, he is letting me do linux from scratch for a project now (so I can know more about it, not that I need a specialized distro or anything)
SLC schools are pretty good, but more often than not I would say the real problem is the nature of public schools in general. The problem is that what looks politically popular is not necissarly the most intellectual or in the kids best interest. More often than not, no matter how incompetent, irresponsible, stupid, and foolish public schools are - you can't keep them from getting your tax money anyhow, unless you go through monumental god like efforts. The best solution is to do what you can to send your kids to non-public schools whenever possible.
the critical thing is that it's being used in the PROGRAMMING lab, NOT a production lab where students would need the computers to write papers, do homework etc.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
According to Linuxworld.com, a Linux operator would earn an annual salary of about $65,000, while a Windows operator might make $45,000 -- costs a school district would bear.
I would have gladly managed a Linux network at my high school just to get out of class every now and then, and I even had the skills to do so.
Then again, I wouldn't have gotten out of as many classes as I did fixing the computers running windows...
Fight or flight its all the same
Live to die another day
--Ryan
Between the years 1993 and 1997 my own small business, with only three computers, spent several thousand hard earned dollars on Windows software.
From 1998 when I switched entirely to Linux our total software cost has been $0 ( I was given a copy of Linux For Dummies with Red Hat 5.2 as a gift).
No additional expenditures have been needed because of making the switch,
Nor has, at any time, any "privation" of functionality ever been felt.
Indeed I've been able to greatly expand functionality because software previously out of my reach on a cost/benifit basis is now readily available, at will.
Others may debate TCO all they want. I know Linux is free.
And freeing, because now all license issues have been slaughtered on a wholesale basis. Compliance is part of the TCO.
I'll make this offer to any school. I will come in for a few days and show you how you can do what I have done, and I'll do it at *half* the rate you're paying your MS person. I'll even train the poor sod if you'd like.
KFG
When I was in high school, I was a member of the "computer repair" team. I ran around the school fixing things for about 2 hours a day. The actuall paid staff came by once every few months and then only if a serious problem occured. If my school had a few linux boxes, the support would cost the same; I or the other students would be the ones doing it. In the end, it would teach some highschool kids a thing or two about linux, and save the school a little cash on software costs. I think it's a great idea.
Also, our school actually did buy a few linux boxes. One or two that would boot off a CD. Nothing to maintain really. ROM bios, boots off a CD. Easy as hell to upgrade! Just pop a new CD in the drive and turn it on! These were ideal for internet stations. Well, that's my two cents.
I am a viral sig. Please help me spread.
I hope some of the students involved post pictures of the robots they're building in class.
With the power of linux, one of those kids is going to end up with this project.
"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." -Philips
the fact that you can download 1 copy of most any distributions and make copies of it til your spindle runs dry, and deal not with commercial liscensing alone saves lots and lots of money. and along with that, most computer savy people (even windows people, face it most linux people came from windows backgrounds) can pick up linux by reading a few books and be functional. thats not to say their network is EXTREMELY secure, but there are linux security books out there too. anyway the point is that most schools are going to have a(many) computer professionals working in the district. paying for a few books, or even a few classes, and a few cds, will save alot of money. also the ability to revive older hardware means, that the schools can get even more use out of that pentium 233 lab they still have (theoretical). upgrading to win2000 just wouldn't be efficient. however, upgrading to is much much more efficient.
I write code.
Well, I can't help but think back to my own high-school experiences. The guy who was 'the network admin' for the school was also 1. a teacher (one of the lower-level science classes and two computer classes), and 2. coach of one of the school's many athletic teams.
Point being, how many schools even have a full-time, dedicated admin? Granted, I graduated in '97 so I hope things have improved, but in terms of cost, many schools seem to look for 'jack/jill-of-many-trades' teachers. These might know enough to restart the computer as common M$ 'fail-recovery protocol,' but lack of experience, knowledge, and general DESIRE to be 'in the know' like us hobbyists, tend keep them away from Linux...
There's no wrong way, to eat a Rhesus...
"One Linux operator can manage 45 computers while a Windows operator can manage only 10 because it's harder," Mello said.
/usr/local/etc/apache, get stuck? Dig through millions of irrelevant howto's and newsgroups posts to find the answer. Live support? Go into IRC and get called n00b by every facist l33tist in there. Try a suggestion, and it breaks something else, rinse and repeat.
FUD ALERT! That's just plain malarky.
I started off managing windows systems, and later moved on to linux. Mello is just plain wrong here.
Now as far as flexability is concerned, yes you can do all sorts of neat tricks with linux, but for day to day admin operations, MS has very polished tools that save a MS admin tons of time in implementation.
Let's compare services...
Web Server.
Windows, go to add/remove software, add IIS. Run the microsoft management console, and tweak it to your delight, if you get stuck the help file is right there, or burn a call on the credit card to MS support.
Linux, go to apache.org, download the source, make install, go out and have a cig, come back and see if the compile is finished, go out to lunch, come back. Ok now you have to edit your rc.d scripts to run apache on start, do a little configuring in
It took me a good 4 years of tinkering with linux before I became proficient enough to run a server, compile my kernel (which is m00t these days because of modules) and basically make it do the same things my windows boxes do. Most of this time was spent wading through useless irrelevent documention, trial and error, ect.
I charge for my research time, don't know about you other IT guys out there, but everytime I read a howto, or browse support.microsoft.com i'm earning.
As far as desktop management is concerned, group policies, netlogon scripts, and active directory makes it easy enough for a child to manage a MS domain.
I'm not trying to bag on linux here, it's awesome to have a system that never crashes even on shitty hardware. If linux had gui based management tools that were on par with their MS counterparts, I would agree with the above quote. I've tried everything from linuxconf, to webmin and all tcl/tk tools in between, and yes they are quite good, but not nearly as good as what i've seen come out of redmond. None of these tools have anything even closeley resembling the functionality of creating a software group policy object that will install across 1000's of computers in an organization.
From a personal standpoint though, I would pick any *nix or BSD for running my mission critical applications any day of the week over a MS box. For managing a buttload of user desktops and apps, MS wins hands down.
Other high school projects working with Linux. Such as the Linux Thin Client k12 project at Riverdale high school http://k12ltsp.org
The more diversity in computing we teach our kids now the more open minded and out of the box thinking from them will become more prevalent in the future.
Sig
Logan High students have adjusted well to Linux.
Wow I really wouldn't of thought that High School Students would adjust well to Linux. I guess the teacher must be pretty good.
I think Bender was built from Windows judging by his character traits listed here, and here.
The technicians have to match up all the computers with a license number for each piece of software that is installed. This becomes even more difficult when computers are donated with unregistered software already installed.
I like that wording. Not 'impossible' to produce licenses for pirated software. Just 'more difficult' than if you are legal. This is exactly the kind of "can-do" attitude that the youth of America needs as an example. Don't let that 5GB of pr0n your girlfriend found drag you down! It's simply 'harder' to explain than if it weren't there.
lately i've been thinking about teaching as a profession. (guess that means i'd need to finish my BSc first, eh? ;)) my mom was a teacher, as was my grandfather. Anyway. I'd probably end up teaching computer science plus some other science, and for the CS curricula I think open source is by far preferable. The setup that I think would be be the most advatageous would be a decent Linux server accessed by any pre-extant client machines running the appropriate client software, with accounts and groups as needed for the students in the various classes, semesters, etc. This means that the students could work from home, and that all data is central for security and backup purposes. Remote gui's are of course possible, but frankly for most of the kinds of programming that a typical high schooler will be messing with, the console is fine. The server could also be used to host web development/design projects in additon to the traditional AP computer science curricula. A real database could be exposed to the business students to learn SQL and data modeling on. Given a simple problem space and a relatively brawny machine, the server could even be used to add a computational supplement to the science courses (e.g. model these three molecules to get x, y, and z bond lengths as noted {water, ethanol, diatomic oxygen). The "one big server" approach also does not require any dedicated client hardware, so the client machines in the lab can also be used for other, non-programming uses such as an office skills class or art/design class (adobe toolchain). There's even no real requirement on the client hardware present, as even a 386 or ancient mac could be used as an ssh term becuase all the action is taking place on the server. If on the off chance that the curricula included, say, GUI java work... that's possible on most any client machine natively and with a vnc-server or remotely-fired X session as well. Sorry if this is kind of a brain-dump, i'm incredibly tired right now. It should be noted that this scenario is not choosing open source becuase it is free, but becuase it is more capable. Linux could work as a method to reduce cost but then you're on somewhat shakier ground. Yes, you save money on client licensing. BUT! This assumes you are able to get functional equivalents for all the proprietary software you need. (E.g. you're doing the design students a disservice if you replace Photoshop + Illustrator with the Gimp... Sorry, the gimp is a good program for some things but PS +Ill it is not.)
Also, you could just as easily use an Apple Xserve in place of the linux server i mention above, which would be extra good for most schools that probably already have an apple infrastructure. Or sub in some other free Unix for Linux... From the student's perspective the difference between an openbsd server and a linux server would be nil.
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
Step 1: Bring robotic arm to sex ed class
Step 2: Connect robotic arm to linux terminal
Step 3: Stand back and video tape the Kama Sutra master at work!
I live and work in Logan as a UNIX engineer/CTO of a technology company -- this is great news. If you guys at Logan high school need some UNIX/Linux expertise, let me know. I'd be happy to donate my time/services. :) (brian@zyx.net)
-- People who hate Windows use Linux. People who love UNIX use BSD.
I'm a teacher in a 50,000+ student school district. The district is seriously considering tossing off Microsoft's yoke, dumping both Microsoft and Novell, and setting up an all-Linux network. Microsoft has been trying to extort more and more from the district (a few months ago, one of the reps was simply asked to leave the Tech Center), and school districts in Texas are all facing reduced state funding next year.
So yes, Linux is being considered. But it's a slow road. For example, I'm working with the district to set up Linux servers for use as internal web servers in the high school computer labs. An incredible amount of emphasis is focused on security, since all grading is now on-line as well. As you can imagine, high schools have their fair share of script kiddies just wetting their pants over the opportunity to hack a new box on the network. We will be monitoring all hits on the boxes to try and profile what kind of attacks occur so we can keep the boxes as secure as possible. Whether or not the district decides to pursue Linux on the desktop depends upon how secure we can keep the lowly intranet servers.
My suggestion to anyone who is thinking about trying to convince school administrators to go open-source is to start small. Don't propose retrofitting the entire district in a summer--this simply doesn't fly, and makes you look like a zealot with an agenda. Offer to set up and administer a few Linux boxes, and go along with the security program. If they don't want qmail or sendmail running, fine -- there's time later to broach the subject.
As it is, news has quickly spread through our district's 7 high schools that we are getting our own server. Now they want one too. So I've been given the mandate to start setting them up for all the high schools. All because I pitched the idea of one lowly server for a computer science class I'm teaching.
I usually am invited to attend any school events where parents and kids from outside the school show up so that I can help run the Computer Science displays. Every event that I've been to, I've always run a Linux display and people typically seem interested in it. At one of least year's events, this kid kept asking me questions about Linux and he seemed enthralled about it. He's a Freshman in my school this year, and I asked him if he was still interested in Linux. He replied that he was, and that he actually dual-boots Linux alongside of Windows, and that's only because his mom still uses Windows. I may have converted only gotten one person to switch to Linux, but the more the merrier.
"Programming is like sex - one mistake and you'll have to support it for the rest of your life."
Linux setup costs are insane, if you want a coherent, cohesive system with any sort of usability.
Once its up and running, it'll go forever.
I don't see licensing as major cost of deplyment.
MS has _very_ reasonable edu licensing.
This is how my 'uptime' schedule looks like:
= 6 months or more = Linux, Novell servers
= 1 week or less = Mac OS X server
= 2 days or less: w2k servers(update/fixing/patching)
If students are doing the system and network administration, then I don't see how Linux could possibly not be less expensive than any proprietary OS. There's little or no up-front cost, and no ongoing software maintenance cost. Even if there were penalties in the amount of time it took to do things using Linux (a doubtful proposition, in any case), that extra time would be used by the students learning very valuable lessons about computers.
If students are not the admins, why not?
Information is not Knowledge
There is the old discussion about if Linux is truly cheaper to operate in the long run. Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch?
It always seemed like the biggest problem facing school sysadmins was keeping the computers from being trashed by the students. It seems like if they used diskless workstations, it would virtually eliminate the need to pay for somebody to constantly be fixing hosed machines. If someone screws up a workstation, just reboot it and voila! it's fixed.
No kidding, when I suggested having linux on the computers for our Cisco class, this is what our network admin told me:
"When you get into the security business, you'll choose windows over linux" and then later on, "you can't hack windows."
At that point, I began to have faith in my getting a job in the IT industry, if she could ($100/hr).
Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch?
Of course it is: it's free. The only "real" cost that a school district incurs by using Linux is either 1) hiring a Linux educated instructor or 2) training a current instructor. Both options are much less expensive than the Microsoft alternative.
In addition, students are able to install Linux at home at no cost. And with most school districts cutting costs by closing campuses immediately after the final bell, a student with Linux at home is still able to complete projects and even do "outside" projects/exploring.
Maybe a better question is whether or not Linux offers high school students a viable introduction in the world of computer software/science?
While not as "popular" in the business industry as Windows, Linux is still a powerful alternative to Windows. In addition, the source code is OPEN and hence, can be customized, changed, etc... There exists a plethora of educational possibilities in Linux, all of which are controlled by the school, teacher, and student and not a corporation in Redmond.
How can a school have a legitimate solution just for getting better hardware for their buck? Their students will be illequiped when they get out to the job market. At least with macs they can use Microsoft Word, Internet Explorer....you know, applications that have over 90% market share.
My school has been adopting Linux in many areas. First of all the forum server (where students get thier homework, and teachers discuss) runs Redhat (I wanted to put Debian on there but Redhat was a much better distro to teach the people who will be taking over when I am gone next year) which was migrated by me and another student from Windows 2000. Many of my friends use Knoppix instead of the Novell junk, and we are workign to get a few computers in the Senior Computer Science classes set up with dual boots so that other people can learn the ways of the penguin. Although I do admit that since I am the Linux guru of the school I have been the one to make the most difference in the degree of adoption that my school has pursued thus far, many students other than I are taking Linux into thier own hands
History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it - Sir Winston Churchill
and we still wrote dos progs. Judging from the people I've met since, I'm pretty sure this is the case for most of the nation, at least the parts that actually HAVE a programming course.
-Amalcon
The only thing preventing this from being a viable alternative in ALL schools is the expertise level of the teachers. Usually people with the expertise to configure and run *nix in a school lab aren't going to settle for a teacher's salary - they'll be working somewhere else.
...if you don't value your time.
I never learn anything from these articles. I run Linux, and I know what it's capable of... I know it will be even better when it hits the mainstream(desktopwise) and I can't wait. So I read these articles for yet another hint that what I'm waiting for is coming to pass.
My Blog
Indeed! Your whole counter-argument is pure malarky as well.
I.e.:
"I started with UNIX and moved to Windows. I could admin 45 UNIX machines without problems, but had trouble with 10 Windows machines. Using apt-get or rpm/rpmfind with rsync I can update 45 Linux machines in 3 minutes, as opposed to 20 minutes per Windows machine finding the right patches at microsoft.com?"
Perhaps these skewed claims are made based on the personal experiences of yourself and the original author? Hmm?
BTW, I'm not advocating either OS or its usability here either, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of the rebuttal.
For managing a buttload of user desktops and apps, MS wins hands down.
Actually Netware winds that hands down.
JON
... :-) that is real funny.
With no MS software, who knows, maybe MS would audit anyway. But all you'd have to do is say, "take a look--no MS software", and the audit would be over.
As an LHS alumni, it's exciting to see that my alma matter has made Slashdot, especially since they did something GOOD to earn the honor.
Convert RSS to HTML - integrate webfeeds into your website
Hrm.. IIS actually lets you do a few of those things. It's been a while since I bothered with it, but IIRC, it lets you limit bandwidth & upload sizes.
Mac's are more expensive and more proprietary (hadware and software) than anything else out there. How's that supposed to be 'better' for edu?
hmms why dint you just type "apt-get install apache"
(debian) or "emerge apache" and then just lean back an enjoy the ride
Well, when I was in school, we didn't even have computers. Either way, even without snow. I had a VIC-20 at home, which impressed the chess club and not much of anybody else.
When I went to college, I took with me an Amstrad 8088. w00t. I once wrote a term paper using 'copy con lpt1'. My Hercules monochrome monitor broke.
Some command-line adventures would be good for kids these days.
Agreed. The hot summers in Phoenix plus a new cassette drive for the VIC-20 gave me the wherewithal to write an asteroids-ish game in BASIC at age 14. Many months of hunched over typey typey made me what I am today: a 75 WPM hunt-and-peck typist with strange notions about programming. Kids these days should be so lucky.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
I agree with what your saying, you have paid your due's and now your probably being compensated well for it. After four years of trial and error, your probably quite proficient with your craft.
Seems that getting things setup and working is only 20% of the task tho, and keeping things running is the other 80%
I wouldn't be surprised if someone who has 4 years experience in Linux really 'knows' the underworking of the OS and the critical components much better than someone who has been admining a NT server for four years. I wouldn't be surprised if that same person has ability to easier manage more servers because of the profound skill and knowledge he has of the environment than a shallow understanding of how high-level gui's work.
I am sure that as distributions get more and more advanced, not as many Linux users will know how to write their own custom init scripts, watchdog monitors, runlevel options, boot into single user mode, etc.
I can't believe that just because Windows is easy to use that these same tricks of the trade are any easier. If anything, in my experience, getting things going in windows is quite easy, but when something goes wrong, really wrong, is when I seem to get quite frustrated. Now, the only experience I have had managing windows software was a small NT server at a company I was at that used it for exchange and file serving. I admit, I am a programmer and not an admin, but small companies.. you do what you have to do
I have spent about 4-5 years myself working on linux.. VERY long nights of hacking and playing, twiddling and recompiling.. endless greps through uesless mailing lists, etc. But in the end it has paid off BIG time, I am landing more a year than any windows admin I know and am using a tool set that I control and understand.
Your much better off having taken the harder path my friend, I am sure when something goes wrong you understand the problem, and not just the symptom. You will be much more effective in solving problems when shit really hits the fan. I dont think you keep 1 NT admin per 10 servers for when things are going good... or getting setup, but going bad and having problems. Maybe thats why you don't need so many people to manage linux boxes.. not for deployment, but for post deployment trauma.
Enjoyed your post tho.. I agree that Linux does need a standard base for configuration. But don't worry, we will get there
Cheers
I like reading about schools that use alternatives. I remember when my old school had a Netware system running, it was great and extremely fast. However when the school "Upgraded" to Windows NT. Everything was downhill from there login times ranging from 2-10 minutes and wonderfully anoying crashes which meant that students had to share computers even though there were enough PCs.
The University of Twente (the Netherlands) has had a dualboot system between Linux and Win NT (now Win 2000) for years, even before I was a student there (we are talking 1996-1997 here).
And we're not talking 'a few' computers, all computers in the CS department (at least all the systems that students can use) have both Linux and Windows. Has been like this for over 6 years, maybe even longer.
I would have assumed that a lot of uni's in the States would have the same thing? Am I wrong in assuming this? You're kidding me....
Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
It depends. If you have a Linux expert or a sys admin its certainly more cost effective to use free software than to use expensive software. However, if nobody knows how to do anything at all, then the software isnt' very effective, even though it costs you nothing.
I would say give it a shot and see if you can make it work for you. If you can't, well, I'd probably just think you're stoopid. In which case, go pay as much as you can afford for someone else to solve your problems for you.
Schools should have no excuses when it comes to computer competence. Schools are where we go to get educated, afterall. If they don't know, they shouldn't be in the business of education.
> There will always be people willing and able to pay $500 for a garden spade.
Here comes another barrage of spam....
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
My senior year, at a school which I won't name to spare it a /.ing, had one of two computer labs running redhat. This was in England and it was not getting any money from taxes so that might have had something to do with it. But we used netscape for browsing, codewarrior for C++, and the old horrendous AIM on linux. The other lab was a bunch of iMacs. That was my first experience with linux and pretty much my last as of lately. I bought win2k for $5 from UT Austin where I go now and it has given me none of the headaches that various redhat and mandrake installs have given me. But that is $5, which is nothing. For a school to pay $100 per copy of windows is suicide. I would rather see that go to student instruments, which this school had many of. There were 19 out of 240 people in the upper school who were either taking a C++ or javascript class. The rest just cheked email and surfed the web. AIM was not used really since you could just head over to the cafeteria and talk since that is where everyone else was. Much better use of my parents money than spending it on an MS license.
I used to be a technology purchaser for a school district. In Texas, school districts can purchase the latest edition of Windows for somewhere around $26. Office goes for somewhere under $30. SMS (to do system management) runs $118.
RedHat Network is $60/"entitlement" (retail) or something like $50/"entitlement" (bulk purchase). Plus you have to retrain the entire population of the school who have used computers at home or other places of business, then you have to find state-approved curriculum that is generic enough to work well with Linux (it's much more difficult to teach a business applications course when all your textbooks cover Access and Excel and you only have mySQL and Gnumeric).
If school districts are honest up front about paying for their licenses, it is indeed cheaper to go the Microsoft route - hands down. When we Open-Sourcers start volunteering our services at our local schools, then their might be a competition.
There is the old discussion about if Linux is truly cheaper to operate in the long run. Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch
Linux is perfect for a local school district.. Schools have the benefit of free student labor, and they don't have to worry about deadlines or downtime. Linux on cheap hardware is perfect for this kind of environment.
The *nix-side of the story on configuring desktops:
.rpm's (or other package format) there's hardly anything that can go wrong upon distributing them. You can easily write a shell script that checks for updates upon every login and have those fetched from a server. That'd be YOUR installations, set up by YOUR scripts, conforming to YOUR company's policy and the way they do business, so that YOU are in control and not some closed group policy service which you can only trust because there's no way for you to find out what it actually does. Nice pickle when something goes wrong.. and I've been there.. /usr and /home directories remotely. Everything is always available to everyone and given a few clever shell scripts on the clients and some replication between servers this can be very easily load-balanced, centrally managed and backed up at the same time as well.
/var/log ;-)
;-)
Standardize on a *proper* free OS for corporate desktop use and no that's probably not Gentoo or Slack.
Yes you will spend time setting up the groundwork. However once you have the apps you need all neatly packaged up in your own
Then there's NFS and such things as mounting things like
Your Apache vs. IIS example isn't a very strong one either. Many good tools are available to configure Apache, check the recent RedHat ISO's. And even if you were to compile it from source because of some funky module requirement, you could package the resulting binary for re-use on every other box you need to serve pages. For IIS the funky functionality would most likely simply not even be available.. Besides, how often do you set up a real webserver anyway?
Final example: FreeBSD actually does let me set up a DNS/DHCP/LDAP server the way *I* want it.. Win2K is easy until you want something out of the ordinary or something goes south and it's not in the knowledge base yet. I'm in love with my
Ok, so far for my ranting. A constructive suggestion: just give SuSE 8.1 or Redhat 8.0 a whirl. Your post sounds like you've been away from Linux for quite some time. It's come a long way, and the configurability has gotten much easier. I popped in a RH 8.0 CD a few weeks ago, clicked a few simple buttons, and was up and running with a system that'd be right at home in any small office environment. I had a full office suite, could use my fairly exotic scanner, printer works, ADSL works, could burn CD's.. if it werent for the butt-ugly BlueCurve theme I'd say I was on an Apple
Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
The reason to move more towards *nix platforms in public schools (pre-school through university) is the difference in what you take away from working with it. Under Windows, you are trained to click here, then click there, and if it doesn't work, you restart. With *nix, you have the opportunity to be educated in what is going on beneath the pretty graphics (assuming here that suitably pretty graphics exist for your application, YMMV).
Case in point: I switched over to Linux in November, and have a four box LAN at home. I'm trying to set up the ability to access different printers over the network. Is it taking me a lot longer than it would under Windows? Yes. Is it frustrating? Extremely. But that's the point! As a physics prof of mine put it, "the learning is in the struggle." I already understand many points of networking/printing better than when I started, and when I finally (with the help of others) get this blasted setup working, I'll be educated further. And that will make it easier the next time I see this problem or a variant thereof, because I will understand what's going on beneath the pretty interface.
By the way, another way of paraphrasing my physics prof is: "No pain, no gain."
My legal education, in nifty podcast format
I set up a linux box at school to use as a webpage server. I found it pretty funny that 3/4 of the school didnt know why you had to login to DOS. More schools need to follow this one. Linux is the wave of the future and the power of this OS needs to be harnessed by todays youth!
We've used linux for years at my old HS. When I took over the IS we had one Linux box running our mail server, it was Caldera 1.something. I took over, convereted a few other things to linux, upgraded the mail server and got a couple programming boxes up. My senior year we installed linux (yellowdog) on all the Apple G4's in the lab.
Today they have a cluster of linux boxes running redhat 7.3 for programming, and a nice poweredge server for mail. The only Windows box left in the school is the main file server and they are working on plans for an xserve to replace that this summer.
"Shut up about my driving. You're still alive."
Windows... Registry gets corrupted.
Apache/Linux: A few text files maybe get corrupted.
Now, tell me which is easier to fix or recover from?
It doesn't matter if Linux is cheaper in the long run to schools. Why not? Because the cost of Linux vs. Windows on paper is clearly going to favor Linux in terms of the up front costs. Since those are the costs which get line items on the budget, that's what matters.
Once it gets in the door, it's game over.
It's arguably true that having computers in classrooms doesn't add a lot to education anyway. The long term benefit of computers in the classroom may be more a result of having students set up, maintain, and program those systems than from any so-called educational software.
Frankly, I don't understand why vendors like Microsoft aren't tripping over themselves to give away software to school districts. They can't be making much money from schools anyway, they don't get good press for sticking it to school districts, and having students see that software in use is good advertising.
Whatever...
Of course, all of the above assumes that school districts start evaluating software based purely on cost instead of the "pain in the ass factor". This subtlety is pretty much the only reason Apple still gets chosen above all others in many school districts. Of course, savings on PITA factor also translates to money, but I don't see how most school districts care about that anyway since their IT departments are grossly understaffed anyway. It's not like they budget for "PITA time" anyway.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch?
While I agree that it is, I think you're asking the wrong crowd. It's like asking a recording industry executive "Is Napster evil?".
If you have to ask slashdot "Is linux a legitimate solution" you probably aren't a slashdot regular!
An online Starcraft RPG? Only at
Online Starcraft RPG? At
Dietary fiber is like asynchronous IO-- Non-blocking!
I am a Senior Network Administrator at a magnet high school in Austin, TX (LBJHS). I am in my junior year (Class of '04) and I (along with three other guys) manage nearly all aspects of the network at the school - from servers to workstations and infrastructure. Our organization, Student Technology Administration Council (www.stac.org is our website), has been managing the network at our school, independent of the school district's network since 1994.
We now have 300-400 workstations (mostly W2K except one Slackware lab) being served by a small army of linux servers on our own campus T1. This program is an incredible and unique learning experience for us - being able to manage an entire building's network while still in High School with little to no aid from outside adults.
I like to brag that our network's stability is significantly better than the network that the rest of the school district is on.
they didn't mention it, but the real reason they are using linux is so that they wont be able to play any games... how sad.. hehe
I wish my high school had a robotics programming lab, or let alone a Linux one. Hell, I'd even take a decent teacher. My teacher actually asked us once what cout does. Yea...I'm learning a lot this year...
SIGFAULT
You can see my robot here. That's me on the far right.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
/. is a news digest of sorts. it's good for this article to appear because those of us looking for ammunition now have another bit.
/. I would never have seen it.
had this not appeared on
.sigs are for post^Hers.
I've found that linux is a far better choice fundamentally for implementation in autonomous systems.. simply because it's easier to strip out all the crap you don't want, and make small installations of whatever flavor of linux that only do what you want them to..
Hey nitwit. Before you start bashing anything you should actually take the time to learn it. IIS can do all of that and more. Evertyhing you can do with Apache you can do with IIS, period.
Apache is just faster and more effiecent.
They'll do anything to screw the establishment!
Probably because the people who do IT work for schools are not getting paid as well as the people doing IT work for most businesses.
At least at my high school, half of the computer techs were HS students. Half of those guys also had after school jobs working at a middle school or other school doing support for them. So they are mostly just kids.
Wouldn't this, in part, assume that the school was actually paying for every license of an M$ product they had in the first place? Find me one of those, and they can have a gold star!
I am a senior with no curriculum left in computer science at my high school. The compsci department got a grant in January to upgrade by buying new machines for their programming lab, but had not developed a plan for the old hardware. I told them I could rollout a Linux lab so that they could teach twice as many classes. Of course, there's no support from the county, since the IT guy doesn't want more work.
How about this for an independent study curriculum: Learn how to sysadmin a couple dozen Linux workstations on a local network with NFS home directories, then teach your instructors how to do so; convert an introductory programming curriculum to Linux; and make everything stable before graduation at the end of the semester.
So far, its been hard-core. One more benefit of Linux in high schools, it keeps little hackers busy doing constructive community service.
The real reason that Linux in our schools is cheaper than Windows in the long run is that the future technology and business leaders of our nation will be growing up using and being comfortable using free and open software rather than a proprietary and closed OS.
How 99% of posts about Linux in high school Labs, are about Linux not being Windows. Why on earth to linux advocates devote so much mind share to MS?
Just get on with making Linux better than previous versions of linux and let it stand on its own merits.
I'm replying to this obvious FUD because I don't want legitimate folks who are researching Linux read the parent and receive some bogus information:
/usr/local/etc/apache, get stuck? Dig through millions of irrelevant howto's and newsgroups posts to find the answer. Live support? Go into IRC and get called n00b by every facist l33tist in there. Try a suggestion, and it breaks something else, rinse and repeat.
/etc/httpd.conf to change the DocumentRoot (this can be done with a GUI).
Web Server.
Windows, go to add/remove software, add IIS. Run the microsoft management console, and tweak it to your delight, if you get stuck the help file is right there, or burn a call on the credit card to MS support.
Linux, go to apache.org, download the source, make install, go out and have a cig, come back and see if the compile is finished, go out to lunch, come back. Ok now you have to edit your rc.d scripts to run apache on start, do a little configuring in
No. It's more like:
rpm -ivh apache-version-i386.rpm (by double-clicking the icon)
edit *one* file,
chkconfig --level 2345 httpd on (again, possible with the GUI)
service httpd start (again, through a GUI)
It took me a good 4 years of tinkering with linux before I became proficient enough to run a server, compile my kernel (which is m00t these days because of modules) and basically make it do the same things my windows boxes do. Most of this time was spent wading through useless irrelevent documention, trial and error, ect.
Wow. Four years to learn to run a server and compile a kernel? My wife, a graphic arts/journalism major, did it twice while testing out some documentation I'd written. She had zero adminstration experience in either Windows or Linux. I didn't help her at all during the procedure.
I charge for my research time, don't know about you other IT guys out there, but everytime I read a howto, or browse support.microsoft.com i'm earning.
Sure I charge for research. I don't charge research fees for things that I should know before stepping foot on my clients' premises. But I suppose that this is one of the fundamental differences between Unix and Windows admins.
As far as desktop management is concerned, group policies, netlogon scripts, and active directory makes it easy enough for a child to manage a MS domain.
I'm not trying to bag on linux here, it's awesome to have a system that never crashes even on shitty hardware. If linux had gui based management tools that were on par with their MS counterparts, I would agree with the above quote. I've tried everything from linuxconf, to webmin and all tcl/tk tools in between, and yes they are quite good, but not nearly as good as what i've seen come out of redmond. None of these tools have anything even closeley resembling the functionality of creating a software group policy object that will install across 1000's of computers in an organization.
It's this dichotomy that always amused me. Every MCSE training shop I've seen in four states promises starting salaries around $65,000 for an MCSE. If Windows were indeed so easy to manage (a child could do it), then why the inflated salaries?
Lets talk about your software group policy object. How/what are you deploying? A permission change for a shared object? How are these thousands of computers configured and with what version of Windows and which Enterprise package? But instead of talking SMS or ADS, try looking at what you want to accomplish instead of Microsoft-speak. I guarantee that I can create an equivalent environment under Unix/Linux that will provide the same functionality.
I give free email evaluations for Windows shops considering the move to Linux. Contact me if interested.
The Democratic Party: We've been pussies since 1968!
Pffft-kids. We had to build our computers out of logic gates and wire-wrapped boards. THEN we had to program them by using toggle switches.
Oh yeah, it was snowing outside at the time.
Or am I just paranoid as hell? And if so, is that relevant?
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
The case study the parent post refers to is excellent -- mod it up someone! it's only Score:1 at the moment.
Check out MKDoc a mod_perl CMS
Because the windows-only "administrators" I've come into contact with were dumb as shit.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
I'm not a graphic artist, but I've heard it said many times that GIMP is not a Photoshop killer (yet).
High end graphics editing may be one of the few select cases where Linux isn't a viable replacement for OS X or Windows.
------
I reserve the right to be completely wrong.
This is another thing that bugs me about supposed pro Linux media. Just about every review of a linux dist focuses entirely on ease of installation. I consider this just as detremental to the legitemacy of linux as calling it cheap. You never read anyone touting the quick and easy installation of Solaris, and it is very well respected amoung the money people. Conceivably you only install once. The rest of your time is spent actually using a system. Shouldnt this be the focus of advocacy?
My high school already uses linux. The entire computer systems lab runs on debian, and the network includes a Cray. It's definitely better than windows - using linux gives students an easy opportunity to work with a supercomputer, and the fact that the system is a linux-based network makes everything easier and faster (as proven by the network covering the rest of the school - all the machines run on windows 98, and the network runs extremely slowly and is very unstable). Although I'm sure that I'm not introducting anything new here, I just wanted to say that linux does seem to be getting a foothold in high schools. Free, easy, fast...it's definitely here to stay, at least at my school.
...the school you refer to does not exist. It was orignally described as a school in Maine, but there was a recycling logo from Pennsylvania on there when the article was originally posted on Slashdot. If you look more closely, you can see that it's clearly a hoax.
How could linux cost more in the short or long run?
Common, use your sense. Look at this case, did anyone pay Russell Weeks a dim more? It's the same person that do both of the things here. Just the software is free. Also, after he master what he does, he could install 500 PC with less time than windows. I spent couple hours install linux and ALL the applications including games, and development in 1 shot. Ask any windows guy to do that (without using disk copy).
Until today, Microsoft still does not have an answer to the open source phenonmenon. They had an easy shot at Netscape because it was a small company. Same for the struggled Apple. But hey, to a big guy, they are just some pity coward.
Funny some people said M$ has brilliant minds such as Bill Gates. I knew it all along, and now, some analysists start to see the light. The M$ people does not have anything special in term of brain cell. They luckily had the DOS on most of the PC, while Apple made some mistep. Then when Apple start to license out the things, Mac seems to go very well, but Apple decides to go with the company instead of the Mac platform (that is to save Apple, forget about license the OS). If they separated the OS and the hardware, maybe the hardware is dead and the Mac would dominate the PC or at least has a big chunk today. Anyway, M$ has nothing special in their talent. Now, it's obvious. They have unlimited resource (look at how much $ they have), and still can not compete in areas other than OS and Office. They're lousy indeed.
Linux will take over soon. If you don't embrace it, you're behind. Better do it now.
The $ and long term cost are crap. If they IT does not spend time update and fix M$ bugs/virus whole, then what do they do? Use that time to install a new Linux box.
I wonder why those analysts still have jobs.
Look at the big picture.
One robot, outfitted with a small camera, will monitor an aquarium and be controlled over the Internet. .. A control site goes up, it gets posted to /., and within minutes the robot overheats and melts...
I can just see it now
A Minesweeper clone that doesn't suck
Schools in Logan, Utah? I'm surprised they aren't just using those discarded Apple Lisas in their computer labs! ; )
http://www.knoppix.net/o cs/index.php/KnoppixKDE
:)
http://www.knoppix.net/d
Cheers
My private school overcharges on tuition and has to waste money to not lose non-profit status. In addition to bringin in lots of shitty, overpriced computers, we also like buying M$ liscenses.
My High School is already running linux: Here
We've just started running Red Hat on the machines in our school programming lab. That's really something considering we're a public school (although the school in that artice was too). I guess this means open source is becoming more and more mainstream. Yay!
No, seriously...who the hell cares?
...it's the One True Operating System, isn't it?
Liberty uber alles.
I've been begging my CISCO teacher (yes, teacher, i'm in highschool) to "ignore" the AUP (acceptable use policy) and let me install FreeBSD on my class workstation. It's an old Compaq POS that manages to crash at least once a day while i'm using it, and hardcore BSoDs are a two time a week thing, it seems. Not to mention that this machine is so slow it can barely run the Win98 install on it. Hell, these things have trouble running our CISCO router configuration software. I think it would be perfect for a FreeBSD install.
"Upon attaching the waterblock to my penis, I began to notice that I know nothing about computers." -- JRockway
The thing all these other fanatics don't understand (btw I enjoyed your post too) is for most business, having a easy to use IT system is essential to not having to maintain more experienced admins.
a me out? Or used DD under redhat to copy a bunch of win2k advanced servers and their newfangled NTFS partitions before ghost was able to?
I've used linux for NT work too. Ever grep out someones e-mail list from a corrupted NTFS drive before this
http://home.eunet.no/~pnordahl/ntpasswd/
c
Ya, linux IS powerful, no doubt about it. It's saved my ass hella times. I use it as a server everyday. Trying it as a desktop though has been a complete nightmare. I get a whole lot more done on windows, gimps UI looks like it's been designed by dyslexic monkeys, open office is bleh, fonts look cruddy, and any task requires you to go reading through a mountain of documentation the quality of which, looks likes a first years tech writers work. Not to mention, sometimes you click a link for an O/S project and get a 404.
I tried using RH8 when it first came out for 3 months last year, god what a dog. For stuff that matters on the home user desktop, like 3D performance, it just wasn't there. Even if my favorite windows apps were written for X (truespace comes to mind) GL's performance blows in linux when compared to XP.
Yeah, those are my reasons for not using a linux desktop at the moment. Great for something I wanna set and forget, no fun for something I have to sit in front of everyday.
BTW, anyone questioning my tastes, i've been an avid computer user for 26 of my 30 years, started off with timex sinclairs and went through the whole 8-bit phase on up unto the current generation of PC's, Macs, and Unix hardware. My hands have touched everything out there and I am of the opinion that a system that is intuative to use is more quickly learned than one that isn't.
Sure I charge for research. I don't charge research fees for things that I should know before stepping foot on my clients' premises. But I suppose that this is one of the fundamental differences between Unix and Windows admins.
So lets say you're on site, and that openssh exploit that was reported a few weeks ago is used to install a backdoor that you have never seen before.
So you're not going to charge the customer for going to securityfocus.com to read up the solution to cleaning out the backdoor? Why not? Your entire response sounded kind of knee jerk.
It's not an IT persons job to know every solution to every problem in the world. It's their job to asess a problem, research the solution(either through documentation or personal experience), and then apply it. Or are you one of those superhuman 7inuX d00dz l33t cr4ck3rs that can crack a password in under 60 seconds while some hot chick gives you a blowjob?
Nah, that's only in the movies kid.
I went to high school @ Logan High, graduated in 1989 and its interesting to me to see how much they've changed. When I was in the computing courses there we did everything on Apple ][e's and ][c's using ProDOS and BASIC, Logo and machine language for the most diehard of us geeks. Anyone else remember copying line after line of machine code from BYTE magazine into an Apple after hours at your high school? Hey, it was the only way we could get free Dig Dug clones!
Abuse my rationalization of rhetoric as either metaphor or monotomy.
My school is a microsoft school, right down to their POS win2k servers, that serve up that garbage citrix. I wish i lived near a Linux-based School system.
For The Best Jazz/Hip-hop fusion > COlD DUCK
No. I go to school in the wealthiest school district in my state, and they still can't see spending the money on competent tech people as worthwhile. I found their secret guide to how to be completely inept the other day. Here are some excerpts
1.Apparently, when a mac doesn't print, an appropriate course of action is to remove all of the components from the case, blow dust off them, and repeatedly strike the hard disk with the butt of your hand. Proceed to be completely puzzled by the icon of a disk with a question mark over it when you forgot to actually reconnect the drive when you put it back in.
2. Make sure you don't fully understand the idea of "e-mail". If a student asks you for the email address of the person in charge of the school website, tell the student that you aren't sure the student will be able to email them from home, since the student uses a different ISP, and a PC.
3.Recently the Federal government(the man) mandated(said) that all receivers(getters) of e-rate funds(this means us) need to implement(put in place) a system of "Internet" filtration(stops dirty pictures) or else they will stop receiving those funds. Get in touch with competent people(nerds) like the folks at www.n2h2.com and have them set up a district-wide proxy-based filter-system for you.
4.After it takes three days(including a weekend) for the three students from the 800 pupil student body to figure out to bypass the system by entering a different proxy in internet explorer and netscape, print off little yellow pieces of paper that say "It is federal law that these filtering systems stay in place for us to receive computer funding. Please do not set proxy servers" so that all semi-intelligent students know exactly what to do to bypass the system. Do nothing to actually address the problem for a year and a half.
5. Install Windows 2000 on pentium 150mhz machines so that it is more secure. Forget to log out of the administrator account often on computer lab systems.
5. There is this new "Linux" thing. It is some kind of virus for hackers or something. It runs on IBM compatibles.
There's a lot of talk about Linux's lower costs, and also about its "other advantages" but I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Sun in all of this.
I'll explain what I mean: If the high school computer lab could get a Solaris lab for the same or lower cost than a Win2k lab, they would in a heartbeat. And more and more everyday, Linux-on-Intel is showing it's a "good-enough" replacement for Solaris-on-Sun.
So take all the reasons that an educational institution would shell out the big bucks for some SPARCstations, and make it work on $199 Wal-Mart Durons or no-cost donated hardware, and you've got a pretty good cost-benefit equation for Linux.
The requested URL
You forgot to mention Solitare and mindsweeper.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Linux is open source, and be configured to be used as an educational system. Windows on the other hand is solely an all-purpase OS. So it's often abused in schools (kids play video games on it, etc.). Linux would be by far a better choice for an educational enviroment.
Why do you need RedHat Network? Just download RedHat or Debian for free and use LTSP. Most schools probably have old hardware anyway, so thin clients would be the way to go.
And cheaper. And free (libre). Oh, and more secure. And available for more platforms.
I'm sad to say that my school downright hates linux with a passion.
I'd even dare to say that they hate any form of technology.
We have ONE CS class (new this year so our school could be certified by the IB). We also have a few uninteresting windows apps/typing classes.
Thers's also a 'technology' class, which I take, and have found to be quite interesting. First off, in any other school, it would be called a shop class... anyhow, they've started to do a very limited amount stuff with technology and robotics... using apple ][s.
Don't get me wrong, the district is one of the most well funded in the state. They have MORE than enough money to do whatever they want. But the problem is... they don't, and they don't give a damn about it.
Each computer in the school is connected to a domain through Windows 98 and an outdated version of netware, and is locked down to a ridiculous level of security (previously not thought possible on '98 machines (although I once managed to disable the DHCP server on the LAN by accident).
The school doesn't believe in learning by doing. Students can't change a thing on the computers, let alone fix them. When they had the problem of the cheap windows machines breaking, they hired a full-time computer-repairman (on TOP of the part-time system admin. Unfortunately they never let him have the admin passwords.... ). Students are never involved in the process, and it makes me sad.
I once proposed forming a student organization to regularly update the school website (I coded a PHP site in advance to show them). They were impressed, but the administration refused the proposition, because they didn't want students actively involved in such an importatnt position.
Sigh.... I could go on like this for pages and pages, but I'll save that for a rainy day.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
This is a long tale of woe, but it does get to the point eventually. Bare with me, I suspect other school tech folks have had similar experiences.
I am a District Technology Coordinator. Last summer our small district (3300 students) in the Mid-Atlantic paid Micro$oft over $100,000 in license upgrades. The state had a number of sessions scheduled with the MS Reps who came to explain the new licensing agreement. The company was moving from Upgrade Advantage to Software Assurance pricing schedules.
We were in the process of our Win2K rollout and we were confronted with MS retiring the ability to upgrade certain licenses. Our state contracts with a "Select" vendor who we are required to purchase all MS software. The vendor had conflicting upgrade paths than what MS had explained in the meetings.
At a later meeting when I asked about this they suggested the "School Agreement" as an alternative which is an annual subscription that allows schools to use any number of licenses but you must resubscribe every year.
I explained that I did calculations on purchase upgrades and compared the numbers to this "subscription" license and discovered that it was more expensive. I surmise that conflicting purchase information and random threats of audit in the education community makes choosing the school agreement a no brainer. If this was a marketing decision it is extortion.
During the course of this licensing process I went to the CIO of the district informing him that we could save nearly $40K by using Open Office on student only machines. Even after giving him a copy, and showing the software around to key individuals, he didn't feel that he could support Technology against the inevitable backlash from staff members.
He recommended a pilot before implementation. Since there was a deadline, we bought MS Office licenses. BTW we finally got resolution on the correct upgrade paths.
Now to the Linux in school stuff.
After this experience, the fiddling I was doing with Linux became a higher priority in the investment of my Tech Learning Time.
There is lots of great stuff out there for schools. The Linux Terminal Server Project http://www.ltsp.org/ gets around the windows legacy app problem. Or perhaps Linux Educational Apps could replace windows edutainment titles. A wealth of titles can be found at http://k12os.org/.
Personally I believe that what is best for our district is to get away from managing the desktop. So many rogue initiatives bubble up from the class room.
Example:
Mrs Jones goes and buys "10,000 Handouts Galore" CD-ROM ; ) at the grocery store and then expects technicians to not only install this buggy code from heaven knows where, but also expects poor frazzled "Fred" to divine the arcane structure of how it works, train her on it, and continually fix the pathetic workstation that crashes because the software is not totally compliant to windows standards. All this effort just so she can print a worksheet for the kids to sit and fill out.
How does this fundamentally change education? If you take the computer away can she still create a handout? I suspect that manually she could probably do it in less time with more focus on content and far less frustration.
In my opinion, district administration, curriculum leaders, principals as well as tech coordinators, network folks and programmers should work together to identify what problem really needs to be solved.
The direction we are going in is interactive web applications that provide collabortive opportunities to respond to various activities or projects.
One such Open Source package is the Authenticated User Community -- http://auc.sourceforge.net/. It is essentially groupware for education. Students can review and submit assignments, check email, post comments on a forum and store files. Teachers can track student activities retrieve assignments and initiate discussion. Mom and Pop can see what's going on from home! We are piloting this now.
Our TechTeam is using software called Tutos (http://www.tutos.org/homepage/index.html) to manage projects. This is useful software and since its on the Web it is transparent and ubiquitous.
Imagine if other useful software was converted to the web. The connection of Apache with MySQL (or other DB) could allow us to link every student activity with state standards and some sort of performance evaluation. This would give teachers the ability to make day to day teaching decisions based on DATA that will have real impact on High Stakes Testing.
We also using some network based diagnostic software packages. They are called Accelerated Reader and Accelerated Math and are published by Renaissance learning (http://www.renlearn.com). These programs allow students to interactively and dynamically record their performace on-line.
Unfortunately these programs are Windows apps. They are written in ToolBook and are not even 32bit compliant. Consequently there are frequent network issues since they are being used in manner contrary to their design. I wish there was a version of this software that ran on Apache and MySQL.
If a clear vision of curricular problems drove the purchase/solution implementation decisions rather than random marketing (ed conferences and journals) and individual (rogue) initiatives, resources such as technician support and capital funds for equipment and software would not be caught up in this merry go round of assumpion, consumption, no function and blame.
Micro$oft products give users just enough ability to use computers to be hugely expensive to larger organizations. Products running on this platform are sold as solutions to users problems, but not necessarily one that needs to be solved.
Users devise their own rogue initiatives with the grand ideas sold to them, but rarely are successful without technical help. The minute a technician provides that help they become responsible for the outcome and the initiative becomes sanctified by the organization.
Linux can solve this problem. It forces decisions to be made that focus on the problem. Since every teacher, administrator and student is not familiar (or "Expert" because their nephew works at CompUSA) with this platform they are not dreaming of a panacea like solution where they take off the shrink wrap and all their problems go away with no hardwork or learning curve. District leadership has time to focus on their curricular objectives and devise a plan that has a scope and sequence of events and a series of check points to evaluate progress.
Once the problem is defined and the objectives are spelled out there is lots of stuff in the Open Source community that can be selected as potential "off the shelf" alternatives. But what is even more exciting is the notion that through collaboration with others with similar objectives solutions start to move closer and closer to the needs at hand.
1) Perhaps it takes a while longer to get Apache up vs. IIS (or most *nix server packages vs. their MS equivalents), but you are far more likely to really understand what Apache's exact role is and how it functions, while with IIS most of the details are purposefully hidden on you. Perhaps you really don't care about them, but when something b0rks down the road, believe me, you'll be begging for a good old man page to help you decipher what went wrong.
2) After the inital setup, getting the other 99 boxes in the cluster set up and running is a matter of copying the binaries & config files around in a single "foreach" loop, instead of removing the CD, moving over to the next one, and starting the IIS install & config all over again. With *nix, managing 100's of servers is a piece of cake after you've taken care of the "master" machine. (ok, I've been a *nix nut for a few years now, so perhaps windows has a better way to manage clusters presently).
3) If you don't want to learn all the inner workings of your system (although I'd argue it's only benefitial, especially when it comes to security and troubleshooting), you can always install one of many "config" front-ends to take care of all the nasty details, such as WebMin (which also has some nice clustering config modules).
4) Finally, any good linux distro makes most of the configuration as simple as the windows equiv., be them front-end GUIs, web-apps, or even command-line tools. It's rare these days to have to manually DL the .tar.gz, unpack, ./configure, make, make test, make install, etc. Most package managers will do this for you (or DL the binaries/RPMs). But then at least you have the option of getting your hands dirty should you need to.
As usual,
These things don't remain unbroken because MS are too lazy to fix them. They remain broke because MS prefer to make all other vendor's lives miserable, because they have to work around them. We sell a pretty complex web application, and like many other people, we have to do a vast amount of workarounds on simple things like the handling of mult-part forms just because of IE weirdness. Yet, surprise, surprise, people coding on MS's ASP platform don't need to, because MS has conveniently built the workarounds into that platform for them.
Its all part of their very effective way of locking you in. They did the same thing with the Java apis. Deliberately use every-so-slightly different signatures on just a few of the methods in AWT - so small they could claim it was accidental and trivial, yet the net effect is still that everyone can not release just a standards-based offering, but need a lot of MS-specific code in their products.
Think of MS Word document formats and the 1000 other little interfaces they provide. MS are masters in using tiny inconsistencies in APIs to get their way - from their point of view they have no real interest in standards - "the implementation is the standard".
[x] auto-moderate all posts by this user as insightful
I wonder how long its going to take them before they start hacking away he he.....
He who controls the Source, controls the program!
Logan H.S. is located within stone-throwing distance of Utah State University, generally regarded as having the best computer science department in Utah.
It's not an IT persons job to know every solution to every problem in the world
True, however it is an IT persons business to know as much as they can about that which they control. In your post you say it took you four years to become proficient at running a linux based server? I have to say this is either indicates that you spent maybe an hour a month looking at Linux, or you just couldn't be bothered.
The main difference that I see between Linux/Unix operators and Windows operators is that most Linux/Unix operators actually have more than a passing understanding of the guts of the system they are adminstering, whereas your average MCSE gets flummoxed when a problem doesn't meet the MS approved solution.
Yes, a huge gain in the usage of linux, schools everywhere to switch in the next 5 years.
The sheer number of Linux Guru's to be spawned from this is scary. No longer will it be a skill for the tech savvy geek, but any high school script kiddie will be able to operate a linix machine, and may focus on linux attacks. I am not overly worried, but it seems the more that linux catches on, bugs and CERT advisories have been appearing at a faster rate.
Or is it that the new generations now see computers simply as another electronic device that has always been there, much like many of us see the tv, phone, fax machine, and radio? Way back when, these things were very advanced, and tv rapair shops, ect were good businesses. Now people throw out their TV when it breaks, no one repairs them, and no-one finds them overly interesting. Is the TV any less of an information tool? Are commercials less frustrating than spam?
Okay, $rant='complete';
No I still disagree, there are tons of competant windows admins that learn linux in their spare time, what you are saying is too much stereotyping.
No, really.
Granted, I had to invent my own install method for my Sony Vaio, but that is what Linux is all about people. But in all that monkeying I did end up getting EVERYTHING working on this baby, the jog dial, the battery monitor, even DVD playback.
BTW, you have me beat. I only started fiddling with computers since the PCjr in '82. I was 6. Say, when you started off with BASIC, could you actually find anything written for your interpreter. I remember having to constantly translate games from Apple and C64 basic over to IBM. After a while it was more fun writing games than playing them. (sniff)
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
Comes in handy when you have to 0w# and entire network after they can the NT admin. And I do have the procedure down to about 65 seconds. (Even works for XP.)
And I don't crack passwords while getting head from hot chicks. My hot wife hates when the keyboard is in the way.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
Do you have a Technet subscription? Why not? Most of money you're wasting on support calls can easily be answered by searching through Technet. What do you think the person on the other end of the line is reading back to you? Yes it's possible that you found some obscure bug in your unique setup that you're running. But with the millions of MS users out there do you honestly think that you are that special? Yes, Knowledge Base articles tend to not go into detail or really explain what's going on, but there are a large number of man pages in linux that do nothing more than list all of the options.
One of the biggest complaints I here from the Unix crowd is that you can't do scripting on Windows. Bullshit. You have your choice from vbscript, javascript, Windows Scripting Host, Perl, etc. They are not any harder to learn than trying to teach someone shell scripting, awk, sed, (insert 50 other commands), and regular expresions.
One of the things (out of many) that I don't like about Windows is that the GUI tends to make people lazy. Why learn scripting when people think they can point and click everything. After setting up DNS on a 2000 Server, I noticed the DNS entries looked almost identical to the ones you'd create in Bind. In Unix, you have to know how to create zone files by hand. But since Windows sets those up for you, I don't see too many people without Unix experience digging around in zone files and figuring out how they work.
I started administrating Windows machines after becoming proficient with Unix. At first I had no intentions of every wanting to learn Windows administration, but I became interested after someone showed me how much more powerful Windows actually is from the command line. So I approached Windows from the Unix point of view, using the command line, digging around in the registry, trying to understand what is really going on (this sometimes seems impossible), etc. Maybe my experience just carried over and helped me understand how things work. But I don't see too many people who approach Windows as nothing more than a GUI really taking the time to understand what's going on. Most of the so called Windows admins I see are not really admins from the Unix point of view. They are the office geek who spends most of their spare time playing video games and just become the unofficial admin for the office. Or they jumped on the band wagon a few years ago thinking they'd become rich after getting their MCSE. Of course taking care of more than 10 desktop machines is going to be more than they can handle...
Go not unto/. for advice, for you will be told both yea and nay (but have nothing to do with the question)
Im sorry I have to disagree with you, its a rare Windows Admin who plays with Linux, most of them are happy staying with Windows and what MS feeds them. Sure there is a small minority of experimenters but the majority are quite happy staying with MS.
I live in Logan and graduated from Logan High... Mr. Weeks was a teacher of mine- and to top it all off, my brother's good friend wrote the article for the SL Tribune. Even though I had nothing to do with bringing any of this to pass I still feel strangely accomplished. Good job me. Funny how these things happen. If you're serious about wanting pictures or extra info just email me at benjamin@swdcs.com.
Looking for Logan High School's website, and finding the teacher, you can find a description of the robotics class. Clickity-click here Raise your hand if you wish you had this class in high school. You can also access the teacher's main page HERE
The emperor is naked.
Atari had a HUGE following, Antic, Analog, to name a few always had basic programs you could type in. Of course I did more than just type in games, I understood what alot of it meant, and used to do my own "programming art" on the atari mode 11, ahh 16 shades of grey how beutiful :D
/stand/sysinstall rules over anything, even apt-get, rpm, you name it. It's like an add remove programs on steroids. GnoRPM? Give me a break man. Linux is really really lacking an easy install system like windows and FreeBSD has(at least from an admin view).
:D
Apple's I toyed with a bit, forgot the name of the book, but it was skinny and spiral bound. It showed a method for making psuedo vector graphics on the apple. I took that too making gravity simulations that looked like space war, but were nothing more than just sit back and watch em simulations.
Unfortunatly at that point, I had heck in my life that prevented me from going further for a while. After I went through it I got back into computers in the form of desktop, networking, and IT and stuck with it.
Started reading slashdot 4 years ago, when an admin named "ed" from another office was building mail servers in BSD, I watched him do it, it was neato. I learned about FreeBSD, linux, and slashdot through him, and never looked back.
Oh and going back to my parent post, BSD's
Come to think of it, I know 6 admins, 2 of which are into open source (i being one of them) the other four are just all into windows, you're right, they are pretty much satisfied with just windows. I've honestly tried to talk them into eating green eggs and ham in the form of open source but they wont bite.
Don't cast me down with those dudes please!!! LoL! you're 2/3rd's correct
The only problem with having a Lab full of linux computers is that they can only me used for the teaching of limux and programs under linux. For example you have a young class in a lab trying to learn the basics of WORD. They cannot do this on a Linux only box. Having just a dediacted lab is expensive for a school and which is why many schools have opted to use a linux server that students telnet into. That way other students can still learn about the wonders of WORD in that same computer lab.
I could spell better than that when I was pushing 11 . Christ, you're a moron. Learn to make some sense once in a while.
Well, I dunno what you were using but on Red Hat you just go to System Settings|Packages, check the "apache" box, check any extra modules you want and hit Go. Then you use the Server Settings|HTTP Server config applet to set it up, and that's all there is to it. Oh, remember to run up2date every so often.
If you get stuck, you can use the net or IRC for free, or pay Red Hat and they'll help you.
Oooh look, it's a relatively small establishment deciding to use a mediocre OS rather than a dire one, lets all cream ourselves quick because we're sponsored by a company dependant on it. LINUX IS AN AVERAGE OPERATING SYSTEM AT BEST, AND UNTIL YOU REALISE THAT IT WONT GET ANY BETTER.
The Skolelinux project is doing just that.
I actually know a lot of Apple sysadmins. I was the last class at Drexel that had to buy Macintoshes. (Before that I abused my poor parents' 386. They never knew what new device driver was going to pop up and explode.)
I personally gave Macs up after using my 7100 to install MK-Linux. It so took me back to the old school that I never looked back. Besides, there is a very subversive satisfaction achieved with finally getting an OS prompt on a Mac. Muhahahaa.
Anyway my Mac friends are trying to get me to switch back. They LOVE the new BSD core on Macs. Now how many of you out there would have believed that hard-core Mac users would be busting root and installing Apache, let alone on Apple hardware?
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
So lets say you're on site, and that openssh exploit that was reported a few weeks ago is used to install a backdoor that you have never seen before.
So you're not going to charge the customer for going to securityfocus.com to read up the solution to cleaning out the backdoor? Why not? Your entire response sounded kind of knee jerk.
As part of my normal process of keeping up to date, I will know how to remove rootkits. This is doubly true if the exploit has been there a few weeks ago. Sure, I'll charge for out-of-the-ordinary research (a cracked site being one of them), but if I contract to migrate Oracle/NT to Oracle/Linux (or even PostgreSQL/Linux) I wouldn't charge for research.
It's not an IT persons job to know every solution to every problem in the world. It's their job to asess a problem, research the solution(either through documentation or personal experience), and then apply it. Or are you one of those superhuman 7inuX d00dz l33t cr4ck3rs that can crack a password in under 60 seconds while some hot chick gives you a blowjob?
Wow. I didn't say anything at all like that, but I guess you needed some sort of argument to bolster the original FUD. I'll reiterate: What falls into the out-of-the-ordinary category for you seems to be wholly normal and obvious to me (and to many of my co-workers). As for cracking passwords, well, yes. I have cracked a few as part of routine security audits. Yes, routine audits. Day to day activity. Normal admin stuff.
Again, I provide free email evaluations if you're interested in freeing yourself from the Windows yoke. Let me know the details of that global shared object and I'll detail a Unix/Linux equivalent.
Oh yeah, some hot chicks have called me superhuman. Thanks for asking.
I took a short robotics class through the University of Washington's EE department a while ago, and we used Linux for everything. The reason was that the software used to program the boards was written for *NIX, not Windows. The boards we were using were developed by MIT, as are a whole lot of good things in the field of robotics right now. Although Windows ports exist for the software, do you *really* want to try using a relatively untested version, considering that the MIT hackers are running on Unix?
Unix in the robotics lab is nearly as entrenched as Windows is in the office, and pretty much for the same reasons. The compatibility argument works both ways.
For once all the claims of being "hard to use" or "complicated" are actually justified - in an academic environment. Whereas your typical user might not care for the hassles of learning their system intimately, an academic environment is *exactly* where you want this to happen. I'd wager most kids [who already have a computer at home or use a computer somewhere] are pretty familiar with Windows already. Where's the learning? Expose them to something new, which is free, and in turn they can teach others and bring it to the next level.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
The list above is cross-platform. Of course there are some differences between such programs for Windows, MacOS, but kids won't notice them and won't understand them either. It's too early for that - they just see computer almost first time in their life.
After using Macs in schools ("using": see the list above), kids go to business and they do the same with Windows. Again, there are few differences between MacOS and Windows, but they are compensated by differences in task lists as well.
So, what's the result? Apple helps to Microsoft. Seriously. Apple sponsor schools with Macs. Students educate how to use computers. They come to business and buy a cheaper commodities: wintel products.
Now, how to make sure that Linux in schools will not help to wintel sales, but instead it will help to Linux sales (or Linux downloads)? Simple. Don't teach in schools how to use same functions on computers as they are on windows. Instead teach how to use computers in a way that impossible or difficult on windows (and macos). The keywords here are CLI, Scripting and Security. Briefly, modern regular (non-professional CS) user must know something about what is inside PC/OS, how to program for personal needs, and how to protect own informational life.
Command Line Interface is not a relict of 70s, it's a basement of control. Do you want to control your OS yourself? - Use CLI. Other wise let GUI (with bugs) to help you to think that you control your system. CLI is a manual-stick car (no automatic transmission). If a student will know how and why to use CLI - there will be less problems with GUI usage as well. CLI is key to know the computer. Isn't it a goal for students to use computers in schools?
Modern scripting languages are not CLI macro agreements. Look at Python: it has a bytecode compiler, a garbage collector and it's OOP. How is it different from Java? Only in a good sense, mostly speed and size. Python lets a student to write rapidly and interactively small scripts accordingly to tasks from a text book. Results work right the way and often faster (no monster-JVM).
Many computer science experts will support me when I will tell: don't teach imperative, teach functional. If a student know how to use FP, there will be no problem with imperative languages. Otherwise is not true: many students after learning imperative languages in fact do not know how to program. By the way, Python has FP primitives. Besides Python, I would recommend students to use Scheme, Lisp, OCAML, Haskell and Prolog. And of course SQL.
You may notice that future non-programmers do not have to know so many langs. You're right. But they have to know at least one of them. Please, don't let Java or C or C++ to be one of them - they will learn nothing but useless syntax. Non-programmers are not going to use Java at home. As for scripting langs - no problem. That's what's happen to Visual Basic. But we don't want VB, we want something Linux-friendly, MS-independent and math-better.
Security is another key. More and more schools today consider of teaching Karate or other self-defense disciplines. Especially in urban areas. Today we are all living in one big cyber-urban area - Internet. Are you going to trust ISP or you are going to protect yourself?
I propose that schools will teach students how to hack each other on special hacking labs. If you know how to hack - you have more chances how to protect. Otherwise is not true. Today most of internet users still do not know that blind executing of unknown email attachments is most likely a virus infection. They don't know how to use MUA filters against the spam. No need to mention they don't know that using PGP or GPG signing/encryption can protect their private information in email messages as well as to protect against the spam. Why? B/c none taught them. You can tell all of tat to them hundreds of times. But until they will learn on practice how to win the war - they will continue to loose it.
Less is more !
FUD ALERT! That's just plain malarky.
/usr/local/etc/apache, get stuck? Dig through millions of irrelevant howto's and newsgroups posts to find the answer. Live support? Go into IRC and get called n00b by every facist l33tist in there. Try a suggestion, and it breaks something else, rinse and repeat.
;)
So is your post.
Let's compare services...
Web Server.
Windows, go to add/remove software, add IIS. Run the microsoft management console, and tweak it to your delight, if you get stuck the help file is right there, or burn a call on the credit card to MS support.
You forgot about the service pack update. And the hotfixes. Which, of course, stand a good chance of nuking your system if you're already running anything on it. God forbid your "web services" machine be running *anything* else, either, because you'll probably have to reconfigure it, too.
This isn't my experience; this is from watching several of my NT-admin friends at work -- these are, in my estimation, highly competent people. Most of them have been Microsoft junkies since the days of DOS and know the ins-and-outs pretty damn well.
Linux, go to apache.org, download the source, make install, go out and have a cig, come back and see if the compile is finished, go out to lunch, come back. Ok now you have to edit your rc.d scripts to run apache on start, do a little configuring in
Ummm...try 'apt-get install apache-ssl php4 squirrelmail'. You now have a complete, SSL-enabled webserver, with a dummy certificate, PHP4 scripting, and a very nice webmail client.
Regular 'apt-get update; apt-get upgrades' will ensure that security patches and updates are kept current, with only a few seconds of interruption to your service -- not even a reboot.
It took me a good 4 years of tinkering with linux before I became proficient enough to run a server, compile my kernel (which is m00t these days because of modules) and basically make it do the same things my windows boxes do. Most of this time was spent wading through useless irrelevent documention, trial and error, ect.
I'll wager it took you more than four years of tinkering to get to the point where you could get your Windows boxen to do what you wanted them to; and I'm surprised that "four years of tinkering" didn't render you an expert. I've only been using Unix for a year longer than that, and not only does it pay my salary, but I can do *so many things* that were unthinkable on a Windows machine -- primarily because of all the free tools and documentation.
As far as desktop management is concerned, group policies, netlogon scripts, and active directory makes it easy enough for a child to manage a MS domain.
First, if by "manage" you mean "dole out user accounts and grant privileges", then yes, a child can do it. Actually keeping the system running, performing maintenance (both proactive and on-the-fly), and troubleshooting isn't anywhere near as easy as it is on Linux or Unix.
Second, Microsoft "management" only works with the latest Microsoft software. We've got a heterogenous network where I work, with Windows, Sun, and Debian Linux machines all working just fine off of the authentication system we "engineered" over the course of a week to tie everything together (via LDAP, Kerberos, and Samba).
If we had gone the Microsoft route, we would have been shelling out an insane amount of money, both to upgrade all of our desktop hardware (we're a small company, so most of the desktops are PII/500s with 128M of RAM running Windows 98), and to pay for the exorbitant licensing fees.
I'm not bagging on Windowss; I believe in "the right tool for the job", no matter what it happens to be. I just don't like inaccurate posts.
--
I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy
It takes you forever to install Apache because, quite frankly, you sound like you don't have a clue.
.rpm, I'm sure.
.html files to PHP in certain directories, and other non-standard things you will have to read and edit a config file. Really though, it's easier to type commands than click on checkboxes and fill in data fields.
Why bother compiling Apache? No binary packages available for your platform? You're lucky you're using Linux/Apache because nothing MS makes would work then. Or are you just spewing FUD? You have the option to compile Apache, you don't have to.
How hard would it be to install IIS on Win2k Pro, where it's not installed by default? Harder than downloading a
You want Apache to come on at run levels 3,4, and 5?
# chkconfig --level 345 httpd on
That was hard. The only thing easier is installing 2k Server and having IIS running in Code-Red-Reception mode by default.
The configuration is all in one file. Want to configure a backup server? It takes only seconds to scp the config file over and it's working.
Apache *can* get difficult, but that's like blaming Oracle for being overly complex because it offers those annoying transactions. If you're trying to configure a bunch of aliases, to silently pass
Windows is friendlier, but you can't seriously say its configuration interface is more powerful or faster.
How closely have you worked with the windows registry? Believe me there's a ton of documented stuff you can do. Why wouldn't you patch IIS for code red before you put it in your networks DMZ? That's just plain foolhearty. As foolhearty as not doing cvsupit on your BSD ports collection before installing anything.
Do I think IIS is better in terms of performance and reliability for web services? NO! Look at my sig sucka! I rely on apache/php/mysql to run my site everyday (from a he.net account) I just don't find it usefull as a desktop at the moment. I use putty to ssh in, I use vi a lot to edit files (*note* I use the "iodqs!" keys alot)I use wget to grab stuff remotely, it's great.
Can it replace the everyday needs I have as a desktop user? No, sorry, doesn't even come close to cutting it at the moment. I get an itch to try it every few months or so as a desktop, grab a spare machine, wipe it with linux and then proceed to learning the asswipe apps that were written for it.
Nearly every app i've seen in a gnome, kde, desktop has a user interface from hell. Enlightenment has lots of neat effects, but is dog slow compared to XP, even under accellerated X servers.
It's not just XP that rocks linux on the desktop, I recently had the chance to play around with macosx on a cherry red imac. From apple standards, I found everything I needed on the control panel from the apple menu, the application interfaces were well designed, and I was able to quickly get into my XP equivelents and do some work.
It's just too bad the only thing "intuative" about linux is the shell, which is great for certain tasks, but not everything.
Look at my sig sucka!
"Zero Mag"? Never heard of it.
Why wouldn't you patch IIS for code red before you put it in your networks DMZ?
I didn't say you would. I was making a joke about the only way an install gets easier than Apache is for the app to already be there. Setting up Apache for static web serving takes perhaps ten minutes, including downloading the latest package.
I'm sure you can secure IIS fairly well, but by the time you do, you've put in enough work you can't claim it's "out of the box" anymore.
How closely have you worked with the windows registry?
Not relevant. I wasn't claiming you can't do things in Windows, or that the only way to install IIS is by typing in its registry keys by hand.
You made wild claims about Apache being hard and slow to install and talked about compile-time as one of the factors. You don't have to compile it, so it's a red herring. I was pointing that out. Were you 1) lying or 2) really clueless?
Actually the lab is used for all CS and programming courses. The instructor settled on using gcc a couple of years ago due to quality/price problems with the Micro$oft stuff. Previous to the Linux migration we had Win2k on the machines and they did all their real work by logging into an Ultra 10 via VNC. It was admittedly not the best way to go, but did the trick for over two years. As a matter of fact it gave the students an advantage in the state programming competitions as they have always been held on Sun machines running gcc. We hope to be able to move many more labs within the district to Linux in the future. The robotics stuff is mostly done with the Lego gear, although the students have gone way beyond what was thought to be possible with these little guys.
BS
Binary packages never have support out of the box for the stuff I run, a good example of this is when I set up certain PHP apps that require --enable-track-vars to be there at compile time. PHP binary packages never have this option enabled.
As far as securing IIS, you d/l a patch, big deal. Apache you patch the source, recompile, and then you're done. Quite a few LONGER steps.
I thought anyone that used purely binary packages was a clueless n00b. Since you're having such an easy time slinging mud at me.
I thought anyone that used purely binary packages was a clueless n00b.
Nobody knowledgable recompiles without a reason. Doing so is superstitious.
As far as securing IIS, you d/l a patch, big deal.
Unless that patch has bundled features you don't want. Then you're hooped. Microsoft is notorious for bundling "features" that users don't want (DRM is the latest) with patches. Sometimes individual patches are available, if you really want to do things the hard way, sometimes not.
Apache you patch the source, recompile, and then you're done.
You have the option of downloading the newest version, or a binary patch for it, if you wish. Just like with IIS.
But you *also* have the option to keep exactly the same setup as before, yet fix the bug by patching. You can inspect the contents of the patch if you wish to make sure nothing else was changed.
when I set up certain PHP apps that require --enable-track-vars
There are usually kitchen-sink builds of things available. Even if not, you can build once and share binaries.
You're complaining that Linux gives you choices, but you don't have to compile packages. You're complaining that it's powerful, but you don't have to install and tweak PHP. If you want a simple website you can use out-of-the-box Apache and even out-of-the-box PHP in as little time as it takes to setup IIS.
You made ridiculous claims about administering a unix server that makes it clear you've either never done it, or you're at the clueless n00b stage, to use your phrase.
- Download Apache RPM with pre-configed stuff
- Do rpm -ivh apache*.rpm
- Copy webpages to
/var/www/htdocs
- If not configed to your liking, download Linuxconf, webmin, or any of apache config tools
- Config apache
- (???)
- (Profit!!!)
Ce n'est pas tres dificil! Plus, its free!How many slashes would a slashdot dot, if a slashdot could dot slashes?
LOL, you gave me a good laugh with those two posts, more than all the wannabe comedians that always seem to get first post.
I seriously wish the two tech experts that I work with at my school would be more open-minded and try Linux. They laughed at me when I told them that Microsoft will go out of business.
Sorry for straying off topic.
You mean like this? LMAO!!! I couldn't resist!
FreeSoftwareInEducation WIKI
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