Well, first, in this case the network is run on public property (you know under the street and on the pole) so it's not completely a private network. The government has the right to say, hey, we let you run all these ugly wires everywhere, you have to share access to them.
Second, you can charge for others to access the network so your investment in the infrastructure should bring returns regardless of who provides phone service.
Oh, I've seen real numbers to back that - the company I work for is starting to offshore development on a trial basis (small portion of the development for now, but if it works out OK, it will expand). 10 times is rather conservative actually. It's a simple factor of standards of living. For less than $200/month you live like a king over there.
I understand and agree that salaries is only one factor, and the conversion cost to the outsourced model itself is significant. But like another poster said - this is the oil snake currently being sold by MBAs.
You're correct that this what happened with manufacturing. And we all said - OK, since we can't compete in manufacturing, I'll guess we'll become a service industry. Oops, service is going abroad too now (and not just programming jobs, we're talking any and all desk jobs are the target). That leaves what exactly?
I am not against progress - if you can call it that in this case - I'd just like to know how our economy, which is so consummer driven, is going to survive this trend in the long term. Convert, retrain you say. But to what? Back to manufacturing? Most people can't answer that question, they just say it will all work out in the end, it always does. I like the optimism, but that's not in my nature.
If you're worried about your job being outsourced, put your energies into making sure you're giving your boss the best value he can get, and make sure he knows it. Continuing professional education is one good way, and I'm sure people here can suggest others.
That's nice, but from experience outsourcing is not done on a job by job basis, they are usually done for a whole organization (possibly in waves). And these kinds of decisions are made well above my boss' level (or my boss's boss for that matter). These decisions are made in the board room and numbers is the ONLY thing they take into consideration. How productive we are in irrelevant when they can have an army of Indians possibly less productive individually, but more productive as a whole (or so they hope anyway).
Even if you are twice as good as they are, they are 10 times cheaper. Remember that.
I didn't say that EVERY country in the world could, and surely Jamaica and Haiti would be examples of countries that couldn't. Just that there are PLENTY or countries that can and do TODAY - and they're not all G8 either.
If you read the grand-parent you'd know we were talking about manufacturing jobs. The grand-parent made the (false) assertion that advanced technology can only be manufactured here.
Well, I understand there are a handful of top notch schools that definetely rank on a worldwide basis. But I would suggest they are definetely the exception rather than the rule. They probably represent less than 5% of the higher education capacity in this country (yes, I made that number up, it's just a wild guess).
For most people, the state run systems ARE the only choice both financially but certainly being able to get in (those few top notch schools have very few spots).
I prefer to judge the higher education system based on what the vast majority of people attend. Not what the select few get to attend.
College in Europe (which is where I come from) is NOT for the top students. If fact it's close to free (despite of the English complaining - I heard that NPR piece too) and remarkably easy to get in (often a HS diploma is all you need). BUT - and that's where they differenciate themselves from the US system - much harder to graduate from. In general, there is no grade inflation problem in Europe, let me tell you. In this country it's VERY easy to cruise through and get your diploma with very little delay and a B average. An A average takes a little bit more effort, but barely. That's been my experience of the higher education system in this country, and I don't consider myself exceptionally bright either.
As far "popularity" of US School, I think this has more to do with the fact that 1) it's in the US and the US is powerful nation and 2) English is the universal language. That definetely was my reason. I venture to say that a top notch university in Poland (for example) is not likely to attract many if any foreign students.
Then it will move to Phillipines (already happening actually), then some other poor country, then another. There are plenty of poorer countries to last my lifetime, and my kids. That's maybe as far as I really care.
I understand the earth will survive this, that's not really my concern.
Yep. All of those. But if there is nobody that can afford to build houses, you won't need quite as many. Also teachers - but with a very high unemployment rate local tax revenue takes a serious dip and so the school district won't be able to pay a whole lot of them... Same with roads.
That's the point I am trying to get across - sure there is a category of workers that are seemingly safe, but with both manufacturing and service jobs going abroad and no middle class to speak of, it seems this country won't be doing very well.
I know it's a doomsday scenario. Hopefully the trend will slow or stop. We will see.
Maybe in your area (maybe it's state law where you live). But I can tell you it's definetely not the case in Pennsylvania. I've moved several times, and both before and after I signed up with Verizon, no dial tone. Even just recently after signing up for Vonage and transfering the number, no dial tone on the line that comes from the street anymore.
Another thing I generally don't buy, is that the university system is any better here than abroad. And I've experience several of them. In fact I find it rather mediocre at best over here. But maybe that's another topic for another day.
But I like your general optimism that about constant innovation. You've got the right attitude. Time will tell if it stays true.
To think foreign countries are unable to produce complex machines (like CAT scanners, etc) is very naive (if not arrogant) considering that a very very large portion of every electronic is made in countries like Taiwan, China, Korea and Japan (and other).
I doubt the any CAT scanners is made in the US. Perhaps assembled in the US still, but it has nothing to do with the quality of the labor force.
I suspect the only reason a company like Boeing does not build its planes abroad is a certain sense of patriotism (plus whatever government/legal pressure they probably get from keeping the operations in the US).
The point about burgers and doctors is that (in my doomsday scenario) those would be the ONLY jobs left in the US (for practical reasons, nothing to do with racism). Enough jobs to employ just a small fraction of the US population.
When manufacturing jobs went abroad, everybody said - fine, we'll be a service based industry. But service jobs are leaving too. So, please tell me, what else is there? I do hope that someday that "better job" you describe will make itself evident.
There is an arrogant view (just below the surface in your post) that Americans are smarter than foreigner and therefore we'll always be one step ahead in terms of skills and jobs. As a foreigner (now living in the US) I don't buy it. There is no reason that every single service job in the US can't be moved to India (or wherever). It just will take a little time to implement.
Efficiency is part of the equation without a doubt (as an IT worker at a US manufacturer, my job is essentially to eliminate manufacturing jobs through automation). But it's hardly the big picture. Go to any store (walmart) and looks for the "made in the USA" products. You can probably count them on one hand.
The american consumer does not win in the long term. At best, it's a very short term gain. Sure he can buy something a bit cheaper today, but if the trend continues*, his own job will be going to India (or wherever) and he won't be able to buy anything tommorow (for lack of income), regardless on how cheap it is.
The American economy may be expanding, but it's not expanding nearly as fast as India's or China's. The American economy is not creating jobs nearly as fast as it's loosing them.
* manufacturing is all but gone from this country, and services are also leaving. From IT (programming jobs and tech support) to accounting no job is safe from an Indian worker earning a 10th of what his american counterpart makes. There is only a need for so many doctor (even that they can do remotely these days) or burger flippers.
An.exe (with or without that extension) will probably also work between version of Linux just fine, as long as you have the various compat libraries installed.
Drivers, however, are a whole different story, and I seriously question you assertion that a driver written for windows 98 (or whatever) will "pretty much" work on windows 2000 (or whatever). Having done various upgrades of Windows over the years (both at work and home) I have yet to ever see this working. If I did, I would not trust it - and neither would Microsoft.
Well, I understand you may not be a native english speaker, however I wish you had spell checked your message before sending it. It's VERY easy to dismiss letters/emails with lots of mispelling, and yours has lots.
Switching to SI DOES have a significant advantage. The US would finally be using the same units as the rest of the world. I am sure it would it be an easy task, but it would be worth it in my opinion.
I get your point (yet still disagree) about crafting units to their purpose (base-12 for some, base-2 for others, etc), but the english system does not even bother to keep it consistent within the same kind of units. inch, feet, yard, mile, etc.
The reason I disagree is simple: somehow the rest of the world gets along just fine with SI. I've never felt that I was "fitting square pegs in round holes" back when I still lived in Europe. From my various engineering classes in college (in the US), I vaguely remember one formular/calculation (don't remember which, it's been a while) that was a lot harder with SI, while the rest was significantly easier with SI.
If the best you can come up against SI is some inconsistency about a prefix (which never bothered me growing up in Europe - I now live in the US and have lived both sides of the coin), then I don't think you have much of an argument... But I am amazed that you managed to write so many words about it anyway.
The "10 is a difficult number" argument is one I am familiar with, but I don't buy it. Simply put, we think and calculate in base-10 (ever seen a 12% or 16% sale at the mall?) with noteable exception such as time and angles - both of which are probably the most challenging for people to do basic math with (try asking someone how many minutes in day and see how long it takes to get a response), which only reinforces my point.
Again, how do machinists do their work in Europe? If and only if the answer to that was "they do it in english/imperial" I would believe you. But it's not. They can and do cut things in one millimeter or one micron, or their job is not sloppier or looser than an American machinist.
You know, as an engineer, who happens to work in a steel mill, I am quite familiar with physics and the properties of steel. And I can tell you with a high level of confidence: you are full of it. The "thousands of an inch" is a convienience factor based on training and the equipment they use. It has nothing to do with physics.
"You are 3A miles away " - oh yeah, that sooo much easier than to switch to metric. Are you out of your mind???
OK then, meters to km maybe not that often. But meter to centimeters - all the time (just as often as you'd do inches to feet). Like it or not, it is still easier for the vast majority of people (even in the US) to divide by 100 than by 12. But more important to that, is the lack of consistency - if everything was base 12, but it's not. For example, 16 ounces to a pound. Metric conversion units are simple, and don't require memorization of conversion factors. All you need to know, it's the universal prefixes (vocabulary, not math skills): Mega-, kilo-, deca-, centi-, milli-, etc (and really for everyday life you only really ever use 3 of them: kilo-, centi-, milli-).
You know, you can use fractions in metric too. There is nothing that stops you from saying 1/10 of a centimeter is somehow you think it's easier to remember than 100 millimeters.
As far as machinists, I have no idea what the "cutting rate of steel" is supposed to mean (eventhough I work in a steel mill). But it sounds like you're just saying that their equipment is calibrated to deal best with english units. Well, recalibrate! Change the equipment! I assure you, machinists in Europe do not have to make any conversions to the english system to do their work, and they don't have "metric steel" either.
Being base 10 is a huge advantage. For whatever reason most people can easily perform divisions and multiplications in base 10. Multiplying or dividing by 100 is easy: move the comma by 2. Conversion between units in metric is incredibly easy, even without a calculator.
Converting inches to feet to yards (to whatever else weird unit) is not something most people can do in their heads (at least when you deal with big numbers)
Slashdot Mirror
Well, first, in this case the network is run on public property (you know under the street and on the pole) so it's not completely a private network. The government has the right to say, hey, we let you run all these ugly wires everywhere, you have to share access to them.
Second, you can charge for others to access the network so your investment in the infrastructure should bring returns regardless of who provides phone service.
Oh, I've seen real numbers to back that - the company I work for is starting to offshore development on a trial basis (small portion of the development for now, but if it works out OK, it will expand). 10 times is rather conservative actually. It's a simple factor of standards of living. For less than $200/month you live like a king over there.
I understand and agree that salaries is only one factor, and the conversion cost to the outsourced model itself is significant. But like another poster said - this is the oil snake currently being sold by MBAs.
You're correct that this what happened with manufacturing. And we all said - OK, since we can't compete in manufacturing, I'll guess we'll become a service industry. Oops, service is going abroad too now (and not just programming jobs, we're talking any and all desk jobs are the target). That leaves what exactly?
I am not against progress - if you can call it that in this case - I'd just like to know how our economy, which is so consummer driven, is going to survive this trend in the long term. Convert, retrain you say. But to what? Back to manufacturing? Most people can't answer that question, they just say it will all work out in the end, it always does. I like the optimism, but that's not in my nature.
If you're worried about your job being outsourced, put your energies into making sure you're giving your boss the best value he can get, and make sure he knows it. Continuing professional education is one good way, and I'm sure people here can suggest others.
That's nice, but from experience outsourcing is not done on a job by job basis, they are usually done for a whole organization (possibly in waves). And these kinds of decisions are made well above my boss' level (or my boss's boss for that matter). These decisions are made in the board room and numbers is the ONLY thing they take into consideration. How productive we are in irrelevant when they can have an army of Indians possibly less productive individually, but more productive as a whole (or so they hope anyway).
Even if you are twice as good as they are, they are 10 times cheaper. Remember that.
I didn't say that EVERY country in the world could, and surely Jamaica and Haiti would be examples of countries that couldn't. Just that there are PLENTY or countries that can and do TODAY - and they're not all G8 either.
Belgium
If you read the grand-parent you'd know we were talking about manufacturing jobs. The grand-parent made the (false) assertion that advanced technology can only be manufactured here.
Well, I understand there are a handful of top notch schools that definetely rank on a worldwide basis. But I would suggest they are definetely the exception rather than the rule. They probably represent less than 5% of the higher education capacity in this country (yes, I made that number up, it's just a wild guess).
For most people, the state run systems ARE the only choice both financially but certainly being able to get in (those few top notch schools have very few spots).
I prefer to judge the higher education system based on what the vast majority of people attend. Not what the select few get to attend.
College in Europe (which is where I come from) is NOT for the top students. If fact it's close to free (despite of the English complaining - I heard that NPR piece too) and remarkably easy to get in (often a HS diploma is all you need). BUT - and that's where they differenciate themselves from the US system - much harder to graduate from. In general, there is no grade inflation problem in Europe, let me tell you. In this country it's VERY easy to cruise through and get your diploma with very little delay and a B average. An A average takes a little bit more effort, but barely. That's been my experience of the higher education system in this country, and I don't consider myself exceptionally bright either.
As far "popularity" of US School, I think this has more to do with the fact that 1) it's in the US and the US is powerful nation and 2) English is the universal language. That definetely was my reason. I venture to say that a top notch university in Poland (for example) is not likely to attract many if any foreign students.
Then it will move to Phillipines (already happening actually), then some other poor country, then another. There are plenty of poorer countries to last my lifetime, and my kids. That's maybe as far as I really care.
I understand the earth will survive this, that's not really my concern.
Yep. All of those. But if there is nobody that can afford to build houses, you won't need quite as many. Also teachers - but with a very high unemployment rate local tax revenue takes a serious dip and so the school district won't be able to pay a whole lot of them... Same with roads.
That's the point I am trying to get across - sure there is a category of workers that are seemingly safe, but with both manufacturing and service jobs going abroad and no middle class to speak of, it seems this country won't be doing very well.
I know it's a doomsday scenario. Hopefully the trend will slow or stop. We will see.
Maybe in your area (maybe it's state law where you live). But I can tell you it's definetely not the case in Pennsylvania. I've moved several times, and both before and after I signed up with Verizon, no dial tone. Even just recently after signing up for Vonage and transfering the number, no dial tone on the line that comes from the street anymore.
Another thing I generally don't buy, is that the university system is any better here than abroad. And I've experience several of them. In fact I find it rather mediocre at best over here. But maybe that's another topic for another day.
But I like your general optimism that about constant innovation. You've got the right attitude. Time will tell if it stays true.
To think foreign countries are unable to produce complex machines (like CAT scanners, etc) is very naive (if not arrogant) considering that a very very large portion of every electronic is made in countries like Taiwan, China, Korea and Japan (and other).
I doubt the any CAT scanners is made in the US. Perhaps assembled in the US still, but it has nothing to do with the quality of the labor force.
I suspect the only reason a company like Boeing does not build its planes abroad is a certain sense of patriotism (plus whatever government/legal pressure they probably get from keeping the operations in the US).
The point about burgers and doctors is that (in my doomsday scenario) those would be the ONLY jobs left in the US (for practical reasons, nothing to do with racism). Enough jobs to employ just a small fraction of the US population.
When manufacturing jobs went abroad, everybody said - fine, we'll be a service based industry. But service jobs are leaving too. So, please tell me, what else is there? I do hope that someday that "better job" you describe will make itself evident.
There is an arrogant view (just below the surface in your post) that Americans are smarter than foreigner and therefore we'll always be one step ahead in terms of skills and jobs. As a foreigner (now living in the US) I don't buy it. There is no reason that every single service job in the US can't be moved to India (or wherever). It just will take a little time to implement.
well, feel free to actually provide an ARGUMENT against mine. Or personal attacks will do fine as well.
Efficiency is part of the equation without a doubt (as an IT worker at a US manufacturer, my job is essentially to eliminate manufacturing jobs through automation). But it's hardly the big picture. Go to any store (walmart) and looks for the "made in the USA" products. You can probably count them on one hand.
The american consumer does not win in the long term. At best, it's a very short term gain. Sure he can buy something a bit cheaper today, but if the trend continues*, his own job will be going to India (or wherever) and he won't be able to buy anything tommorow (for lack of income), regardless on how cheap it is.
The American economy may be expanding, but it's not expanding nearly as fast as India's or China's. The American economy is not creating jobs nearly as fast as it's loosing them.
* manufacturing is all but gone from this country, and services are also leaving. From IT (programming jobs and tech support) to accounting no job is safe from an Indian worker earning a 10th of what his american counterpart makes. There is only a need for so many doctor (even that they can do remotely these days) or burger flippers.
An .exe (with or without that extension) will probably also work between version of Linux just fine, as long as you have the various compat libraries installed.
Drivers, however, are a whole different story, and I seriously question you assertion that a driver written for windows 98 (or whatever) will "pretty much" work on windows 2000 (or whatever). Having done various upgrades of Windows over the years (both at work and home) I have yet to ever see this working. If I did, I would not trust it - and neither would Microsoft.
Well, I understand you may not be a native english speaker, however I wish you had spell checked your message before sending it. It's VERY easy to dismiss letters/emails with lots of mispelling, and yours has lots.
Switching to SI DOES have a significant advantage. The US would finally be using the same units as the rest of the world. I am sure it would it be an easy task, but it would be worth it in my opinion.
I get your point (yet still disagree) about crafting units to their purpose (base-12 for some, base-2 for others, etc), but the english system does not even bother to keep it consistent within the same kind of units. inch, feet, yard, mile, etc.
The reason I disagree is simple: somehow the rest of the world gets along just fine with SI. I've never felt that I was "fitting square pegs in round holes" back when I still lived in Europe. From my various engineering classes in college (in the US), I vaguely remember one formular/calculation (don't remember which, it's been a while) that was a lot harder with SI, while the rest was significantly easier with SI.
If the best you can come up against SI is some inconsistency about a prefix (which never bothered me growing up in Europe - I now live in the US and have lived both sides of the coin), then I don't think you have much of an argument... But I am amazed that you managed to write so many words about it anyway.
The "10 is a difficult number" argument is one I am familiar with, but I don't buy it. Simply put, we think and calculate in base-10 (ever seen a 12% or 16% sale at the mall?) with noteable exception such as time and angles - both of which are probably the most challenging for people to do basic math with (try asking someone how many minutes in day and see how long it takes to get a response), which only reinforces my point.
Again, how do machinists do their work in Europe? If and only if the answer to that was "they do it in english/imperial" I would believe you. But it's not. They can and do cut things in one millimeter or one micron, or their job is not sloppier or looser than an American machinist.
You know, as an engineer, who happens to work in a steel mill, I am quite familiar with physics and the properties of steel. And I can tell you with a high level of confidence: you are full of it. The "thousands of an inch" is a convienience factor based on training and the equipment they use. It has nothing to do with physics.
"You are 3A miles away " - oh yeah, that sooo much easier than to switch to metric. Are you out of your mind???
OK then, meters to km maybe not that often. But meter to centimeters - all the time (just as often as you'd do inches to feet). Like it or not, it is still easier for the vast majority of people (even in the US) to divide by 100 than by 12. But more important to that, is the lack of consistency - if everything was base 12, but it's not. For example, 16 ounces to a pound. Metric conversion units are simple, and don't require memorization of conversion factors. All you need to know, it's the universal prefixes (vocabulary, not math skills): Mega-, kilo-, deca-, centi-, milli-, etc (and really for everyday life you only really ever use 3 of them: kilo-, centi-, milli-).
You know, you can use fractions in metric too. There is nothing that stops you from saying 1/10 of a centimeter is somehow you think it's easier to remember than 100 millimeters.
As far as machinists, I have no idea what the "cutting rate of steel" is supposed to mean (eventhough I work in a steel mill). But it sounds like you're just saying that their equipment is calibrated to deal best with english units. Well, recalibrate! Change the equipment! I assure you, machinists in Europe do not have to make any conversions to the english system to do their work, and they don't have "metric steel" either.
Being base 10 is a huge advantage. For whatever reason most people can easily perform divisions and multiplications in base 10. Multiplying or dividing by 100 is easy: move the comma by 2. Conversion between units in metric is incredibly easy, even without a calculator.
Converting inches to feet to yards (to whatever else weird unit) is not something most people can do in their heads (at least when you deal with big numbers)