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Courts Overturn FCC - Return of the Monopoly?

An anonymous reader writes "The DC Circuit Court of Appeals today threw out FCC restrictions which previously forced large regional phone companies to allow companies such as AT&T and MCI the ability to offer local phone service. The court also upheld FCC rules that no longer require large phone companies to share their advanced broadband networks of the future with competitors. The USTA response: 'This is a decisive victory for consumers, for innovation and for free markets.' The AT&T response: 'At a time when consumers and small business owners are just beginning to realize the benefits of competition, the D.C. Circuit today held up a stop sign and halted eight years of progress.' Enough about the Baby Bells already -- how is this going to effect my VoIP phone from VoicePulse (similar to Vonage)? Did I switch to VoIP so I can pay $15/month for my phone bill, but will have to pay $80/month for FTTH or some other form of broadband?"

218 comments

  1. Wow... by gkuz · · Score: 5, Interesting
    forced large phone companies to allow companies such as AT&T and MCI

    Am I the only one here old enough to remember when AT&T was a "large phone company"?

    1. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
      Am I the only one here old enough to remember when AT&T was a "large phone company"?
      Yes, insensitive clod!
    2. Re:Wow... by Argofickyusilf · · Score: 1

      No. Me too!
      Folks are starting to forget history (the last ten.. or..twenty years).

    3. Re:Wow... by Ray+Radlein · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What on earth does AT&T do these days, anyway? They've sold off their cable business, they've sold off their cell phone business, they don't do much local phone service (possibly even less, after this ruling)... and isn't their ISP service just a rebranding of someone else's? Aside from long distance phone service, what do they do?

    4. Re:Wow... by jefdiesel · · Score: 1

      I thought it was when AT&T was THE "large phone company"..

      But hey I'm in Canada, where phone Monopolies are growing day by day..

      --

      I hate spyware and spies
    5. Re:Wow... by zerocool^ · · Score: 4, Informative

      ATM / Frame Relay Bandwidth.

      We've looked at quotes from AT&T on DS-1 and DS-3 types of bandwidth. They own their own nationwide backbone, and are a tier one provider.

      Not to mention their long distance service, and many many payphones which now cost $0.50/call.

      ~Will

      --
      sig?
    6. Re:Wow... by iantri · · Score: 1
      Payphone calls for $0.50/call? Local?

      That's freakin' nuts.

      Here in Canada, (in Ontario.. Bell Canada is the major telco here) payphone calls are CDN$0.25/call. Very cheap. There's no difference in cell phone penetration either, by the way -- it's much the same as in the States.

    7. Re:Wow... by the0ther · · Score: 0, Troll

      I imagine that AT&T like many other businesses is in business to rig taxes and participate in other parties' tax schemes. Is it just me, or does it seem like 80% of the economy is smoke and mirrors, with the 20% of non-smoke-and-mirrors being food/porn/info/med/drugs and other industries which do not require tax finagling because their value is in-itself?

    8. Re:Wow... by biobogonics · · Score: 1

      Am I the only one here old enough to remember when AT&T was a "large phone company"?

      Not just a "large phone company" but "the phone company".

      I predicted back in 84 that in 20 years they would put the Bell System back together...

      But since then AT&T has proven it's utter incompetence in advertising. Their recent "&" ads prove that AT&T couldn't market eternal life.

    9. Re:Wow... by bizitch · · Score: 1

      Cool factoid ....

      They actually own a couple of Class "A" Internet networks

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    10. Re:Wow... by MrTangent · · Score: 1
      What on earth does AT&T do these days, anyway?
      They probably live off their immense patent portfolio. :)
    11. Re:Wow... by spikedvodka · · Score: 1

      don't you mean when AT&T was "THE Phone company"?

      --
      I will not give in to the terrorists. I will not become fearful.
    12. Re:Wow... by sharkey · · Score: 1
      What on earth does AT&T do these days, anyway?

      Well, their business division DOES change your account rep every month or so, and moves your account from state to state just as often. However, said account rep does NOT return calls or place any actual orders.

      --

      --
      "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
    13. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I worked for a mom-and-pop shop (Read, all employees had full-time tasks elsewhere, and weren't getting paid for their time here) ISP that was driven under by SBC, due to overbilling that they refused to resolve.

      They told us we were still under contract rates through the next two years. The next month they started charging us the monthly rate. (Three PRIs. One was a dedicated circuit to our ISP, the other two were incoming dial-up connections.) We discovered this after a few months (remember, everyone's full-time elsewhere), and scrambled to mitigate damages. They wouldn't let us drop one of the PRIs because there was a "hold" on the account for "nonpayment." We cleared that up after six months of incessant phone calls to them.

      But there's still this tens-of-thousands bill we're trying to pay off. We've stopped using the second dial-up PRI, and have worked out an agreement to pay off the debt. We file a billing dispute to get a chunk of the bill chopped off, and they sat on it for over a year, still charging us the monthly rate for three PRI connections plus twenty or so analog lines plus the charge for a dedicated connection to our ISP.

      So, finally, we had to go bankrupt. And for three people with full time jobs elsewhere, it's a heavy load of stress to go through the bankruptcy process, with SBC trying to get at personal finances (always kept separate!) in addition to the corporate ones.

    14. Re:Wow... by NateTech · · Score: 1

      Something about "doomed to repeat it" comes to mind... ;-)

      --
      +++OK ATH
    15. Re:Wow... by etLux · · Score: 0



      I believe AT&T now has a "don't ask, don't tell" policy concerning this.

    16. Re:Wow... by gcaseye6677 · · Score: 1

      Unless AT&T recognizes that the old monopoly days are over, they will be out of business in less than 10 years, maybe even sooner. Since they started as a monopoly company and operated throughout most of their history as a monopoly, they are ill prepared to deal with the new telecom environment. They should keep their backbone data services and get rid of everything else. If they think their future is in charging people 10 cents a minute for long distance, they've got another thing coming. And since 'competitive' local phone service has been a colossal disaster, I don't think the future is there either. Considering how badly they mangled their cable TV and cellphone business ventures, its best they stick to only what they can do best.

  2. Badly Worded by El+Pollo+Loco · · Score: 3, Informative

    " forced large phone companies to allow companies such as AT&T and MCI the ability to offer local phone service."

    I think they mean that large companies like AT&T and MCI were required to allow OTHER companies to offer local phone service.

    1. Re:Badly Worded by Razor+Blades+are+Not · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, no.
      AT&T and MCI are national companies. The large companies are large local (ie state-wide) companies which were forced by the federal government to allow other companies to use their lines to "enhance" competition. The other companies which were allowed in had very little presence in the local market (hence were "small" companies), even while they were giants in the national long distance markets.

    2. Re:Badly Worded by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2, Insightful

      umm, no, ATT and MCI did not have local service before this.

      the big problem is that the local phone companies had to give the competition leases on the lines that could not even pay for the mantinence of the lines. what sucks is that I am on Talk America, so if this holds, I might lose my service and get stuck with SBC.,....on the upside, this ruling will give the baby bells incentive to start expanding their DSL networks again.

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    3. Re:Badly Worded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The large companies are large local (ie state-wide) companies which were forced by the federal government to allow other companies to use their lines to "enhance" competition. The other companies which were allowed in had very little presence in the local market (hence were "small" companies), even while they were giants in the national long distance markets.

      The Baby Bells (regional local-phone-service monopolies) have gotten fairly big due to mergers. As far as I know there are now only four: BellSouth, Qwest, SBC, and Verizon.

    4. Re:Badly Worded by zerocool^ · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I was also under the impression that the whole "share the last mile" thing wasn't working anyway. My friend who works at a computer repair shop -slash- budding DSL provider said that they were taking a loss on the DSL stuff at first because they were having to deal with verizon for access to last mile cable. Verizon sells DSL service for ~$35/month, and they wanted ~$32/month from the company my friend works for just to use the last mile (this was just for the wire to the customer's house, not transit, tech support, advertising, etc etc).

      So, I think this is a step backwards in a lot of ways, right?

      ~Will

      --
      sig?
    5. Re:Badly Worded by lovswr · · Score: 1

      Yes, this is true. I work in the Telecom industry & I noticed that about 4 years ago, Ma Bell-that old crafty gal, is picking herself up again. Also AT&T & Sprint both own large local (as in last mile) foogtprints. (in New York city, AT&T local has almost twice the local access of the regional incunbent, Verizon). But, "lovswr" you say, "were not the long distance companies (AT&T proper, MCI, & Sprint) specifically prevented from owning local access?" Yes. Since I actually worked for Sprint in the past, I know the details of that situation. I'm sure that AT&T & MCI did similar things. The company that we call Sprint has for the last 7 to 8 years or so has, in fact, been nothing more than a marketing entity. Their legal corparate name is United Telephone Company. UTC was & is a local provider, operating primarly in Southern Florida, Las Vegas & parts of Kansas (the worldwide Sprint HQ is in Kansas City...Esrey spent hundreds of millions upgrading the campus (the Sprint University is also there) just before the ill-decided attempt to merge with Wordlcom...yes I & many other ex-employees have a ax to grind with the shiester ex-CEO as he stood to gain almost 2 billion alone if that merger had gone through. UTC bought Sprint in some kind of wierd reverse merger. I say wierd becuase Sprint gave UTC the money to buy themselves. Then Esrey, being the largest shareholder installed himself, Ron Lemay, & the rest of the old Sprint board into the same positions at UTC. You would think that the Long Distance & local parts , both ostensibly being "Sprint", management would have tried to leverage this to a competitave advantage. BZZZZZZZZZT! Other than US Worst, Sprint Local was horrible to deal with. Of course the fact that they were union & we were not had something to do with it, but a little common sense (which as you might suspect, is very short at most large Telecoms) was basically against all that was good & Holy(tm). As to Bellsouth, Qwest, SBC, & Verizon. They are in fact the incarnations of the original 6 RBOC's (Regional Bell Operating Companies) minus AT&T Canada (now Allstream) & Bellabs (formerly Lucent, & now Agilent...All the telcoms keep changing their names in hopes that people forget what "horrible" companies they really are). The original big 6 were Bellsotuh, Bell Atlantic, Pacbel, Southwestern Bell, & Ameritech. Southwestern Bell morphed into SBC & then bought Pacbel & then they got Ameritech too. So there we have half of Ma Bell back together. Verizon is the unholy meeting of Bell Atlantic, Nynex (the worst telephone company in N. America, bar none..Ok except maybe for Navaho Tel) a little bit of SNET (Southern New England Telephone) & the long distance part of GTE. Qwest is the stillborn child of International player Qwest & the smallest of the original 6, US West. US West had the largest physical home territory, & the worst facilites. However, in thier defense, you try maintaing a CO that can only be approached by a half-day's foot march in the Rockies. That leaves Bellsouth standing alone & boy did they not take the cheese. (Bellsouth has been trying to merge with Sprint, Worldcom before MCI, MCI or one of the other remaings RBOC's so often that nobody in the industry pays much attention to the rumors anymore. Hell BS actually had talks with France Telcom!) Basically, Ma Bell is getting back together & our eyes are wide shut. Local toll quality (what the hell does that mean anyway) VOIP may be the last hope. Otherwise, in 3 to 5 years, there will be a defacto national monopoly on residential voice service in the continetal US.

    6. Re:Badly Worded by lovswr · · Score: 1

      Ok..who stole all my carriage returns...

    7. Re:Badly Worded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, you're wrong, and the other person was right. MCI and AT&T can only offer local service if local companies such as SBC, Bellsouth, etc. allow them to use their local copper networks ("the last mile"). The local companies promised to do this in exchange for not being forced to build out broadband to rural areas. The funny thing is, the local companies stalled for years until they could find a judge to overturn the deal made in good faith by the FCC.

    8. Re:Badly Worded by 4of12 · · Score: 1

      Verizon sells DSL service for ~$35/month, and they wanted ~$32/month from the company my friend works for

      Classic.

      There is so much haggling between monopolies and their corresponding regulatory commissions (staffed by appointees from politicians taking donations from aforementioned monopolies) about what the right price is for competitors to be allowed access to the equipment in the central office. Sounds like the local carrier was more influential than your friends DSL startup company. Imagine that. Money has inertia.

      It reminds me of a similar argument where our local electric utility monopoly wanted to charge more for others to use the lines for distributing power. In essense, the power company had unwisely invested years ago in some expensive nuclear power plant, was thereby saddled with debt, and thought that the rate for using the powerlines should include the costs of servicing that debt.

      --
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    9. Re:Badly Worded by operagost · · Score: 1

      Try posting in Plain Old Text mode and using Preview.

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      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    10. Re:Badly Worded by mp3phish · · Score: 1

      No landline provider was ever "Forced" into sharing their lines at "below cost". This is an outright LIE. Look at your telephone bill sometime. It's about $9 per month on mine. You pay for a federal fund which gets dispursed to the local landline providers. Landline users are the people who have paid for these landlines using a federal tax which gave significant funding for the landlines in the first place. ANY local phone company who "owns" the landline and isn't sharing them for wholesale prices is breaking the law because they accepted federal tax dollars to pay for those landlines. Period. Now... all that business about "leasing them below cost" is just hogwash. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the $40 you pay per month (before taxes and regulartory fees) doesn't go tward the cost of the physical copper and copper maintenance in any significant amount. It mostly all goes to the day to day cost of operation of the local telco. The copper fraction is an insignificant figure in the calculation of your bill's cost.

      --
      Your ignorance is infinitely greater than you realize.
  3. The telcos will adapt by SYFer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Did I switch to VoIP so I can pay $15/month for my phone bill, but will have to pay $80/month for FTTH or some other form of broadband?"

    Yes.

    If anyone thinks for a minute that the telco behemoth will lie down and let the "free" internet eat its lunch, you are mistaken.

    --
    "...all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness..." yada yada
    1. Re:The telcos will adapt by estes_grover · · Score: 1

      If anyone thinks for a minute that the telco behemoth will lie down and let the "free" internet eat its lunch, you are mistaken.

      Very true. There was a time, maybe 8 to 10 years ago, when there was some chance that the 'Internet' would go the way of CB radio. You know: big fad, people jump in and fiddle with it and it fades from popular view. Remember those old internet phone pgms that would run over your half-duplex Soundblaster?

    2. Re:The telcos will adapt by dkt5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Exactly. What I see eventually happening, if/when VoIP takes a big wet bite out of the traditional voice service, we will start seeing widespread bandwidth metering, more or less based on the per minute usage/cost of VoIP calls.

      Those of us who use their internet connections for other bandwidth hungry applications will have to look around for companies which provide un-metered service - which will further improve their bottom line by reducing their own bandwidth costs.

      There's no such thing as 'free'. The only reason we're getting "unlimited" broadband for a reasonable price is that every provider is in a 'land grab' for market share. Once they all have a nice grip on their piece of the market, and all the smaller competitors have been forced out, we will see a concerted effort by all to push the pricing up. (or am i the only one who has noticed the increases in price in satellite/cable tv service over the last few years)

  4. Great by HappyCitizen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think it would be better the way it used to be for the consumer. I mean really, now that all the competition is gone, prices will probably skyrocket. Of course, maybe not because the companies no longer have to loose money to competition (if the competition isn't doing so great). Why did they do this? It just makes me wonder..

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    1. Re:Great by E-Rock · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Most (all?) local phone service has its rates capped by the Public Utilities Commission (or whatever it's called in your state). Now, the prices will almost surely creap back to whatever the cap is, but they can't shoot thru the roof.

    2. Re:Great by Hes+Nikke · · Score: 1

      around here, the PUC is in SBC's pocket....

      the PUC has set a minimum price anyone can charge for DSL. it's quite annoying!

      --
      Don't call me back. Give me a call back. Bye. So yeah. But bye our, well, but alright we are on a shirt this chill.
    3. Re:Great by PleaseDontBeTaken · · Score: 1

      I think that's just for some basic services (the line) and a basic package (like crappy message rate service for those that have ever had the privilege. Other packages, and additional features like caller ID, voice mail, and the mystical "wire line maintenance gold" are iirc not regulated.

      Cable is the same way.

      --
      --
  5. Correctly Worded by Yobgod+Ababua · · Score: 5, Informative

    AT&T and MCI (and Sprint) are long distance companies.

    Unless the local Bell-equivalents share their last-mile wiring with them, they cannot offer local phone service, because they have no physical connection to the customer.

    1. Re:Correctly Worded by El+Pollo+Loco · · Score: 1

      Acutally we're both right. It is badly worded, as I think what the writeer tried to say is that the rule is intended for local companies to have access to the POTS network at government mandated rates. But in this case, the "local" companies are AT&T, and whoever doesn't own that last mile, as you said.

    2. Re:Correctly Worded by pla · · Score: 1

      Heh, how odd... We seem to have independantly chosen the same subject line for our response. :-)

    3. Re:Correctly worded by quantum+bit · · Score: 1

      I for one will feel VERY pissed off if I get a call in the next few days from Verizon, telling me that if I don't sign back on with them I will have no phone service. But that seems like precisely the implication of this ruling.

      If Verizon is stupid enough to do this, it could very well be the death knell for POTS. Such a large regression in customer choice might be enough to push many people to going exclusively wireless for phone service (maybe broadband as well).

    4. Re:Correctly worded by fenix+down · · Score: 1

      Well that'll work out great then. You get rid of your price-regulated Verizon phone line and get an unregulated Verizon cell phone and Verizon DSL. Verizon gets to fire all it's local phone people and you go bankrupt! Everybody wins!

    5. Re:Correctly worded by beakburke · · Score: 1
      Well that'll work out great then. You get rid of your price-regulated Verizon phone line and get an unregulated Verizon cell phone and Verizon DSL. Verizon gets to fire all it's local phone people and you go bankrupt! Everybody wins!

      Yeah except Verizon actually has competition for phone and internet service from competing wireless carriers and cable companies.

      --
      ----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
    6. Re:Correctly worded by DougWhite · · Score: 1

      This probably won't happen just yet. For one, AT&T and MCI have entered into contracts with the local bell companies. So you probably could have upwards of a few years before the loval bells could close their monopoly. Two, there is still one more appeal to go. Three, the old law was legal. The one that barred the local bell companies from manufacturing equipment, and providing long distance.

  6. Tell me what to think.. by jfroot · · Score: 4, Funny

    The headline wasn't clear on what position I am supposed to be taking on this. Will somebody please let me know so I can rant about it. Thank you.

    1. Re:Tell me what to think.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The local telephone companies were required through the original FCC rules to open their network to competitors. (IE AT&T can offer local service by leasing the lines to the local telephone company) This ruling throws out those rules so local telephone companies can refuse to lease their lines. Basically your local phone rates are going to go up, at the least.

    2. Re:Tell me what to think.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The headline wasn't clear
      at least you knew enough not to RTFA.

    3. Re:Tell me what to think.. by the+argonaut · · Score: 1

      So basically what you're saying is nothing's going to change except maybe who gets to put the screw in your back.

      --
      fuck you.
    4. Re:Tell me what to think.. by Artraze · · Score: 1

      The headline wasn't clear on what position I am supposed to be taking on this. Will somebody please let me know so I can rant about it. Thank you.

      Really? Some of my best rants had absolutly no position. Or was that informaiton...

  7. 80 for fiber? sign me up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    i'm moving off campus, and i'd be happy to pay speakeasy's 100/month for 3M/756kbps dsl. complaining about 80 bucks for fiber is like complaining about premium gas(93+) at a buck fifty.

    1. Re:80 for fiber? sign me up by fenix+down · · Score: 1

      i'd be happy to pay speakeasy's 100/month for 3M/756kbps dsl.

      Well, ok, so you're an idiot, but some of us like to spend our money on food and clothes, and whatnot.

    2. Re:80 for fiber? sign me up by Mr.+Piddle · · Score: 1


      Wow, you're a student who is willing to afford $1200 per year just for internet access on top of everything else (e.g., tuition, food). How big is your trust fund?

      --
      Vote in November. You won't regret it.
    3. Re:80 for fiber? sign me up by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      Actually, I already pay $60 for my DSL and $50 for my phone line. I'd gladly pay $80 for FTTH and $25 for VoIP. It would be a cost reduction for me.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  8. Do it for the children (of the phone company) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "'This is a decisive victory for consumers, for innovation and for free markets.' "

    How? How? Damn it. How?

    Anyone want to take a shot at it, because I don't see it?

    1. Re:Do it for the children (of the phone company) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It could force some innovation in VoIP. I personnally know of one telco VoIP project that was cancelled because their lawyers decided that if they went aheadm all their competitors would have access to the same features they were going to offer. Since they would be paying multi-millions of dollars for the equipment and would be forced to let their competitors have access for a low fixed rate, they decided it wasn't worth the investment.

    2. Re:Do it for the children (of the phone company) by cmowire · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem, I think, is that they didn't think up where the line of demarcation is supposed to be and this was all written before high speed Internet access was a popular product.

      I've been a champion of the idea (not mine, but I forget where I read it) of seperating the part of the system that goes between the house and the central office. Which removes alot of the stupidity and weird legal areas from the equation. The CLEC and ILECs will then lease space in the CO and pay some amount of money per pair. This network provider will then have a clear incentive to upgrade their network wiring (fiber and DSL-capable wiring is priced higher) and you aren't forcing a company to let their competitors into their CO at a questionable percentage of normal rates.

    3. Re:Do it for the children (of the phone company) by DougWhite · · Score: 1

      VoIP isn't regulated as a Telecommunications company, yet. They do not pay into Universal Service, and they do not have to pay the local telephone company for completing the long distance call. AT&T does. for every 10 cents you pay AT&T, your local phone company gets a penny (or some percentage)

      Furthermore VoIP is an emerging market with competitive growth. The FCC is actually optimistic that VoIP is going to be a true competitor to local bell.

      Generally speaking forcing somebody to lease their equipment out is the extreme end. And really is a last resort strategy. The US takes property rights very seriously

    4. Re:Do it for the children (of the phone company) by DougWhite · · Score: 1

      Well if you have a bunch of people stuck paying high monopoly phone rates they will flee like rats off a sinking ship.

      This encourages people to figure out how to transmit voice of cable lines, power lines, and wireless.

    5. Re:Do it for the children (of the phone company) by ZoneGray · · Score: 1
      By allowing the industry to move ahead instead of waiting around while the FCC repeatedly tweaks it rules. From a WSJ editorial:

      This time around the judges' frustration at being ignored was palpable. Instead of remanding the issue back for yet another turn on the FCC's merry-go-round, the court vacated the rules after 60 days pending motions to reconsider. "This deadline is appropriate," said the court, "in light of the Commission's failure, after eight years, to develop lawful unbundling rules, and its apparent unwillingness to adhere to prior judicial rulings."


    6. Re:Do it for the children (of the phone company) by mp3phish · · Score: 1

      In your post you claim to have heard about "universal Service" fund but then in the last sentence you talk about the government "forcing" them to lease out this service because of money they accepted from the federal government to pay for this equipment...

      You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you accept federal funding for your landlines, you are required by law to lease it at cost to competitors. This is because the federal government grants the company a monopoly on the copper because it would be impractical for many competitors to lay the lines everywhere too.

      The system is well defined and it has worked a long time. Now that some yahoo judge thinks he can tell competitors that they can't lease the lines that the federal government subsidised SIGNIFICANTLY this whole shithouse will go up in flames..

      Time to have our kicks first though...

      --
      Your ignorance is infinitely greater than you realize.
  9. Of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not only will the removal of competition drive prices up, there will be nothing left but mediocre at best ILEC service with no incentive to improve it.

    1. Re:Of course by homer_ca · · Score: 1

      If the ILECS want to hold on to their monopoly on POTS phones, they'll just monopolize themselves into irrelevance. A POTS phone is useful, but it's not the necessity it used to be. Wireless phone plans are cheap enough to use as an only phone. For broadband, cable is the only viable alternative for most people, but there'll be more on the way. Qwest is unbundling DSL from phone service. FTTH, powerline, and community wireless are all possibilities.

  10. Correctly worded by pla · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think they mean that large companies like AT&T and MCI were required to allow OTHER companies to offer local phone service.

    Nope, they got it right...

    For example, look into MCI's "Neighborhood Complete" package, which I currently use. Rather than having Verizon for my local service and MCI for my LD carrier, this rule allowed me to use MCI as my local carrier as well - Meaning that I pay only one phone bill per month, for $15 more than I paid to just Verizon each month, and I get unlimited free LD as a bonus (along with voicemail, CID, CW, 3-way, and I think a few others).

    I for one will feel VERY pissed off if I get a call in the next few days from Verizon, telling me that if I don't sign back on with them I will have no phone service. But that seems like precisely the implication of this ruling.


    Whaddya know, for once I find myself on the same side of an issue as the FCC. Ah well, I suppose this will finally give me the incentive to switch to 100% cellular.

  11. The thing that gets to me.. by cmowire · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The thing that gets to me is that the RBOCs agreed to open up their networks to local competition and, in return, would be able to go into the long distance business.

    Now that this comprimise has been made, they want to not be required to open up their networks. But do they have to get out of the long distance business? Of course not.

    Cake and eat it, anyone?

    The real solution would be to have the phone companies divest the part of them that manages the wiring between your house and the CO.

  12. This might be a good thing by pavera · · Score: 5, Interesting

    With all the municipalities building their own fiber network and alot of master planned communities doing the same, (I work for a company that builds fiber networks for master planned communities) believe me, getting qwest off our backs has been a pain, they demand that we give them access to our network even though we own it, we've had to spend more than 500,000 in attorney's fees just to keep them at bay, with this ruling maybe that issue will go away, municipalities and other private companies can build their networks and we don't have to worry about qwest/sbc et al demanding that we let them have access to our networks.

  13. Enough about the Baby Bells already by sarastro_us · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Are there even any Baby Bells left? Last time I checked there were something like four big companies controlling telecommunitations nationwide. So much for the regional bells...

    1. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by NSash · · Score: 1

      You said it. I'm on the east coast and my provider used to be Bell Atlantic, but now it's Verizon. I haven't even heard of Bell Atlantic in years...

    2. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by cmowire · · Score: 1

      I make a point of still calling SBC by their pre-merger name of "Pacific Bell". ;)

    3. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by nomadic · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ahoy hoy?

    4. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      I make a point of still calling SBC by their pre-merger name of "Illinois Bell".;)

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    5. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by tverbeek · · Score: 1

      I still call SBC by their pre-merger name of "Ameritech". In weak moments, I call them by the name engraved on their office building downtown: "Michigan Bell". Or "the phone company".

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    6. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bell Atlantic changed their name to Verizon about five years ago. They are the self-same company, just a different name. You didn't switch providers, or have your regional provider swallowed by another.

    7. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by DougWhite · · Score: 1

      I for one like refering to it as its merger name of Satan's Bastard Child

    8. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by whmac33 · · Score: 1

      Just had to give crappy Qwest its props.

    9. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I still call them by their pre-merger name of Southwestern Bell

    10. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by matastas · · Score: 1

      Depends on who you ask, really. 'Baby Bell' is just a slang term for Regional Bell Operating Company (RBOC), since they all split off from Ma Bell (AT&T). Your players are:

      -SBC. Combination of Ameritech, Southwestern Bell, and PacBell, primarily.

      -Verizon. Combination of Bell Atlantic, NYNEX, and GTE (who was not an RBOC).

      -BellSouth.

      -Qwest. Combination of US WEST and Qwest (who started in LD).

      And let's not succumb to hyperbole: the 'four big companies controlling telecommunications nationwide' bit sounds a little tinfoil-hat. They've consolidated a bit, yes, but they still serve the same purpose: offer local (and now LD) phone service across a given region.

    11. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know. That's why I posted with my karma bonus: I was making a crappy joke.

    12. Re:Enough about the Baby Bells already by tad001 · · Score: 1

      When did C&P change it's name to Bell Atlantic?????

  14. Alternatives by noelo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    At the end of the artical it implies the it will be many years befor ehte appeals avenue is exhausted. But at that stage will anybody care. Broadband will more likely be wireless based and most people will probably have mobile phones.

    1. Re:Alternatives by leon.gandalf · · Score: 0

      A nice alternative is a Cable based high speed internet and a VoIP phone provider.... I pay NOTHING to the local telco.

    2. Re:Alternatives by phliar · · Score: 1
      Broadband will more likely be wireless based and most people will probably have mobile phones.
      How do you get 1.5Mbps wireless to every house? Over-the-air capacity is fine for voice, especially since they charge by time -- there's a strong incentive to keep calls short, and the bandwidth required is not huge.
      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    3. Re:Alternatives by imperialstormtrooper · · Score: 1

      haha cell companies still have minute restrictions...how close do you think they are on giving up unlimited highspeed bandwidth?

  15. Monopoly growing? by sarastro_us · · Score: 1

    How can a monopoly grow since, by definition, it is the only game in town?

    1. Re:Monopoly growing? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      By entering markets where the game has not yet reached, or branching out into new markets where it leverages its older monopoly power to seize new control.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    2. Re:Monopoly growing? by LearnToSpell · · Score: 1

      How can a monopoly grow since, by definition, it is the only game in town?

      Is Microsoft a monopoly?

    3. Re:Monopoly growing? by His+Shadow · · Score: 1

      Tried and convicted. Unless that was a rhetorical question, in which case, cancel last.

      --

      Fiat Homos et Pereat Theos

    4. Re:Monopoly growing? by Endive4Ever · · Score: 1

      Not really. At a certain point a few years back, before Linux became as big as it now is, and after the failure of OS/2, Microsoft was essentially a monopoly. And they were ruled as such by a court.

      But not really anymore. You can even buy computers at WalMart that run alternative OSes, for goodness sakes.

      --
      ---
    5. Re:Monopoly growing? by jefdiesel · · Score: 1

      The Canadian phone companies are buying each other out, entering new markets, offering both land and wireless services, offering DSL, wi-fi hotspots, dialup internet, video rentals, and even talking about offering television over the phone lines.

      This is happening all across the country, a couple of what used to be 'provincial' telco's, are now multi regional, and growing.

      Bad enough when they were the only 'player in the game' in one town, now they're a player in multiple games in multiple towns.. sure there is a few options for cell service, dsl, and video rentals.. but your cable co is your cell phone co, is your ISP, owns the newspaper, and rents you videos, has about a dozen cable channels, and who knows what the f#ck else..

      I think that fits in the growing monopoly title..

      --

      I hate spyware and spies
  16. Wow...History redux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Am I the only one here old enough to remember when AT&T was a "large phone company"?"

    I'm old enough to remember when smoke signals outside my teepee was good enough.

  17. Anti-Trust or special FCC powers? by Saltation · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The linked articles aren't clear. Does anyone know if this case dealt purely with special FCC powers, or was it decided on Sherman anti-trust grounds?

    If it was on Sherman anti-trust grounds, I can see why it went this way. The courts are very reluctant to apply such a devastating remedy, and tend to read down any application.

    Interestingly/counter-intuitively, American regulators have effectively NO useful anti-monopoly or anti-abuse-of-market-position powers. Sherman Act gives only the financial equivalent of the nuclear bomb. Below that, there's essentially nothing: no system of graded fines or automatic restraint/requirement orders, no ability to remove company officers or investigate pricing, nothing.
    The courts and regulators could do with a few more blackjacks, shillelaghs, and baseball bats, with some pointed sticks thrown in for more serious cases.

    Then you'd be less likely to see such extremes of legal position. The regulators/courts could adopt middle grounds more reasonable to all parties.

    --
    Sal

    Writings: saltation.blogspot.com
    Wravings: go-blog-go.blogspot.com

    1. Re:Anti-Trust or special FCC powers? by nelsonal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here's how it went down. Congress back in 1996 told the FCC to get competition working in the phone business. So they made some new rules, which were struck by the Supreme Court a few years later. Incidentally the bubble was mostly caused by the 96 telecom act, rather than the internet. The interent was rolling along nicely prior to 96, but all of the sudden from 96 to 2000 there were a bunch of startups who wanted to eat AT&T's lunch. They all went after the same market flooded it and killed the industry for the past three years. IT only suffered because a whole bunch of telecom equipment depends on computers to make it work, (telecom was buying 20% of Sun and IBM's hardware through 2000, then it all went away.
      Anyway, last year, the FCC tried again, but basically left the dicision making up to the states. The court mostly said that the FCCs lack of decision making ability angered it and they have 60 days to try again. The decision was almost as good as the crayon related one posted yesterday.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    2. Re:Anti-Trust or special FCC powers? by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "Sherman Act gives only the financial equivalent of the nuclear bomb"

      Sherman set up us The Bomb!

      (sorry, it had to be said...)

  18. No competition? Wrong. by mstorer3772 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A: This will damage competition.

    B: This will NOT destroy it.

    You've got a number of local phone options:

    1) your local provider

    2) Cell phones.

    3) Your cable company (though I could be wrong here, it's entirely possible that digital cable/phone will be torpedoed by this. Does anyone know?)

    So that's at least two, possibly three seperate groups vying to give you local service.

    I'm sure the cost will go up, and features may be cut. But I don't think this is some telco apocalypse.

    --
    Fooz Meister
  19. didn't this same ruling by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    that forced the bells to share, allow them to be Long Distance carriers-- and if that law has been repealed, doesn't that mean they can no longer be long distance carriers? as in- no more verizon long distance?

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
    1. Re:didn't this same ruling by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 3, Insightful

      kidn't this same ruling that forced the bells to share, allow them to be Long Distance carriers

      I believe so.

      and if that law has been repealed, doesn't that mean they can no longer be long distance carriers? as in- no more verizon long distance?

      Nope.

      1) It wasn't a "law". It was a regulation.
      2) It wasn't "repealed". A part of it was "struck down" by the courts.
      3) Only the part that required the baby bells to open their local lines at regulated cost was struck. The rest of the reg - letting them go into the long distance market - is still there.

      It's a "victory for competition" only in the sense that it deregulates more of the market. Net result (if this holds) is that everybody is playing equally in the future.

      Which means that the people with government-subsidized copper already in the ground and the people who have to bury new stuff and wire a city are "on an equal footing".

      I guess some are more equal than others. B-(

      Fortunately, if you have to dig up the streets to wire a town in order to reach your customers, you might as well wire it with glass fiber. B-)

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  20. Also Teleconferencing by jonskerr · · Score: 1

    I used to work in the Minneapolis conference center; they now have a large biz conf thang that hosts huge teleconferences of 5000 participants. And the stuff listed above, of course. They other thing they do is whine about the old days and their shrinking market share while still blowing thousands of dollars a day on executive compensation (like the CEO they hired before Mike Armstong and then decided he wasn't good enough and sent home with a 25 million dollar severance).

    --
    O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon
  21. mci DID have local service by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    in some markets
    http://consumer.mci.com/res_hispeed.jsp

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  22. Worried about DSL? by pagansage · · Score: 4, Informative
    I'm sure a lot of people are worried about the DSL situation with respect to the smaller companies (i.e. speakeasy). I didn't find any mention of this in the links above but a nytimes article had this at the end:


    The court upheld other rules requiring the former Bell companies to allow providers of high-speed DSL Internet service to use their copper wires, but not upgraded fiber optic or fiber-copper lines. The FCC said requiring the companies to provide access to the upgraded lines would deter the former Bells from making better systems.


    At least for now...

    1. Re:Worried about DSL? by tdwebste · · Score: 1
      The FCC said requiring the companies to provide access to the upgraded lines would deter the former Bells from making better systems.

      troll ON
      Then why in hell did to they allow phone and cable companies to own each other.
      troll OFF

      In Canada the cable company, by the way which is not owned by the phone company, is provides broadband service in competition with the phone company. Because of this competition internet is cheaper in Canada.

    2. Re:Worried about DSL? by beakburke · · Score: 1

      Sigh, that's not true in the US. LOCAL phone companies cannot own cable companies. AT&T is not a local phone company.

      --
      ----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
    3. Re:Worried about DSL? by tverbeek · · Score: 1

      Which means that the indy DSL providers (do we still call them CLECs?) have hit a "copper ceiling", stuck using pairs of old copper wire while the Bells get exclusive use of whatever new stuff (e.g. fiber) they pull through those municipally-granted rights of way.

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
  23. Just wrong. by juuri · · Score: 3, Interesting

    While I don't discount the numerous advancements and network builds out the former baby bells have done they seem to be forgetting they wouldn't even exist as separate entities if we (through government subsidizing) hadn't built out their networks in the first place.

    Someone in the FCC needs to sit down and figure out just how much we doled out to each company for their buildouts and then either offer the company ways to pay us back or force them to offer discounts to other people who wish to use their network until the discounted amount matches what we gave them (adjusted for inflation of course).

    --
    --- I do not moderate.
  24. Why is it... by ect5150 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why is it when I hear 'This is a decisive victory for consumers, for innovation and for free markets.' come out of the mouths of large firms like AT&T, I begin to cringe?

    --
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    1. Re:Why is it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You should be happy then...you don't even need to RTFA, but if you had read the article *description* you'd know that AT&T *dislikes* the ruling. The USTA is the one responsible for your quote. Frankly, I think AT&T is in the right with this one...

    2. Re:Why is it... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Years of experience and conditioning, maybe?

      We're fscked.

  25. Confused... by MrWhitefolkz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I admit I haven't paid to much attention to this issue. But why should owners of a network be required to open it up to someone else? If I build a network for a location, I don't want to let others onto it unless it makes me extra money and doesn't hurt my income. Shouldn't the free market and not the government dictate something like this?
    The only argument I can think of against this is because of a monopoly. However, I don't see (in my limited view of the world) that there is a monopoly preventing people from competing.

    1. Re:Confused... by kcurtis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For one thing, the local wires were run to my house back in the late 19th century (yes, 19th) at a subsidized cost - subsidized by taxpayers. (I know the dating because the Verizon tech told me what a pain it is to wire my house to the 1890-s era copper)

      Why should an infrastructure built by an illegal (well, eventually ruled illegal) monopoly be left completely in control of, in my case, Verizon?

      Why shouldn't I be allowed to ask MCI to provide me service over 100-year-old copper?

      Should MCI or AT&T have to run copper to every house in my town that wants to use their services?

    2. Re:Confused... by avdp · · Score: 1

      Well, first, in this case the network is run on public property (you know under the street and on the pole) so it's not completely a private network. The government has the right to say, hey, we let you run all these ugly wires everywhere, you have to share access to them.

      Second, you can charge for others to access the network so your investment in the infrastructure should bring returns regardless of who provides phone service.

    3. Re:Confused... by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Because in many cases the local telco has a legal monopoly on those lines, granted as part of their agreement with the city/county/state. Anyone else could build lines, technically, but they may not run them on or through city property. It's considered unfair competition for them to be able to deny competitors access to their network when their network is the only way those competitors can legally reach customers. Even when that's not the case, the local telco was subsidized in building their network and had the luxury of legally guaranteed profit margins while they paid off the enormous initial investments involved, and it's considered unfair for them to take advantage of that now when their competitors aren't allowed the same subsidies and guarantees.

      And of course then there's the telco's behavior when the shoe's on the other foot. Some CLECs who did build their own networks specialized in business phone services. Suddenly the telcos discovered that it was they who needed access to the CLEC's networks to complete their customer's calls to the businesses being served by the CLECs. In that case, the telcos fought tooth and nail against the right of the CLECs to charge for access to their networks.

    4. Re:Confused... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Informative

      ... why should owners of a network be required to open it up to someone else? If I build a network for a location, I don't want to let others onto it unless it makes me extra money and doesn't hurt my income. Shouldn't the free market and not the government dictate something like this?

      The issue is that the "Incumbent carriers" already have billions of bucks worth of copper wire (and miscelaneous other stuff) in the ground and strung on poles. That was all subsidized by government-enforced monopoly prices over decades. A new competitor would have to dig up cities (more expensive now than it was back then) and bury his own wires - then try to compete with somebody who already HAS the wires, pretty much already paid off by money extorted from customers while the government enforced the monopoly.

      EVENTUALLY they'll have to go to an open market. Like when the already-buried wire is running out and new stuff will have to be installed no matter who is providing the service. (Even then an established company will be ahead, only having to do incremental upgrades.) But right now the incumbent players have a major edge - thanks to past government favors at the consumer's expense. The FCC is trying to level that playing field.

      And the court is trying to keep the FCC within the law as written.

      Fortunately, the FCC seems to be honestly working for the consumer's interest (as they perceive it) this time, rather than rubber-stamping the industry players' recommendations. And the court also seems to be trying to do that as well (as part of its job of interpreting the law). They just have this little difference of opinion about whether one of the regulations is legit.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    5. Re:Confused... by Aku+Head · · Score: 1
      There needs to be some sort of free access to the communications infrastructure because it is not practical for each person to string a wire to his ISP.

      In the old days, AT&T would only allow you to connect AT&T equipment to the phone line in your home. They claimed that anything else would degrade everyone's telephone service. Then a court told them that they couldn't make rules like that. Then people were free to use modems. Then they connected computers together with the modems. This led to the internet.

      My point being that none of this would have happened if the courts hadn't forced AT&T to open up their system.

      It wasn't clear from the news article what the effect will be on my DSL service. It sounds like the phone company will still share the copper wires with DSL companies, but they will be free to jack up the price as much as they want. And since the phone company is also an ISP, they have an incentive to jack up the price so high that it drives the independant providers out of the market.

      The courts have previously ruled that the cable companies don't have to share their coax network with anyone. The judges in the current case seem to be fine with a nation where your only choice for broadband access is one phone company or one cable company. The cable companies have no competion for cable television, so they raise the price a little every year. If they lose most of their competion for broadband internet access, I can see them raising that price on a regular basis, also.

      The phone company will raise their price at the same time, in an attempt to always be one dollar cheaper.

    6. Re:Confused... by imperialstormtrooper · · Score: 1

      other companies have access to the local market...it call an Unbundled Network Element(UNE)...the thing the babybells are fighting is the fact they have to sell these UNEs at a LOSS...you can't maintain these lines for very long if you are losing money with each sell...then who will keep up the network? smoke signal communications? cheapphoneco inc? i doubt it...why don't they let the phone companies come in a sell cable tv on the incumbant cable tv company's coax or fiber? same principal....

    7. Re:Confused... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      the thing the babybells are fighting is the fact they have to sell these UNEs at a LOSS...you can't maintain these lines for very long if you are losing money with each sell

      That's what they say. Some would argue that the stuff that's already in place costs much less than the UNE price to simply turn on and maintain.

      I don't think there's any argument that, if they are out of previously installed equipment and have to add more, the UNE price for the new stuff is less than it costs to install it. Which means the baby bells drag their feet big time about rolling out any new stuff.

      And of course they don't want to rent the existing stuff at below new-stuff cost and then have to turn around and install new stuff for the next customer because all the spare old stuff is being rented to their competitors at below replacement cost.

      And they SURE don't want to install new stuff for their competitors, in places where the old stuff already ran out, and rent it below cost.

      This is one reason the incumbents don't want to roll out any new services while the UNE regs are in place.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    8. Re:Confused... by imperialstormtrooper · · Score: 1

      "And they SURE don't want to install new stuff for their competitors, in places where the old stuff already ran out, and rent it below cost.

      This is one reason the incumbents don't want to roll out any new services while the UNE regs are in place. "

      hell,would you?

  26. You own WHAT? by phr2 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    getting qwest off our backs has been a pain, they demand that we give them access to our network even though we own it

    What precisely is it that you think you own? The wire you put under the street between CO's and people's houses? OK, maybe you own that. What about the street itself, and the tunnels under them? I don't know about the case where you're a municipality, but you certainly don't own the street if you're a regional phone company. And yet, you've been given some kind of monopoly access to under-street cable tunnels and for that matter, residential termination points. If you claim I'm wrong about that, well, say I run an ISP with a downtown office--I'd like to run my own fiber through your city's streets and then up your city's utility poles just like the phone companies do, so I can drop Ethernet cable to the homes of my subscribers, and give them moby bandwidth without having to pay an RBOC to transport data for me. Where do I sign up to do that? I can't? Didn't think so--there's a monopoly like I said.

    Given that the RBOC's are getting exclusive access to a public resource, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't have to share that access for the public's benefit. If they want to own their own network, let them build their own streets to run the cables under. If they want exclusive rights to put cabling under public streets, they better be willing to give the public access to the bandwidth.

    Maybe there's some part of this that I'm missing, since I generally assume that anything Michael Powell's FCC does is bad, and when the courts smack the FCC it's a good thing. But this seems to me like a case where if the FCC has mandated more access to last-mile wiring, it's done the right thing.

    1. Re:You own WHAT? by imperialstormtrooper · · Score: 1

      ah yes but these companies have the same right to place cable and fiber on the r/w subject local and d.o.t. requirements. franchis fees and taxes are paid on whatever is put into service,both buried and aerial...what if the government said you had to give every hitchiker a ride because you drive your car on their street? would you continue to support them?

    2. Re:You own WHAT? by phr2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, if the govt gave me the exclusive right to drive a car on the street and said nobody else was allowed to drive a car there, I'd expect to also be assigned some responsibilities about driving other people around. Hitchhikers are allowed to drive their own cars instead of hitchhiking, if they want. But as far as I've seen, telcos, power utilities, and cable TV companies get exclusive rights from the cities to lay cable under the street. It's not generally the case that every Joe Schmoe willing to fill in the right forms and pay the applicable fees can run cable under the street. There's only a limited amount of cable space down there and access to it is carefully controlled.

    3. Re:You own WHAT? by imperialstormtrooper · · Score: 2, Informative

      you are right. you have to have the fcc approve your application. a true attempt at competition would go through this trouble. the competition that the telecom act has provided allows fly by night shucksters come in,make a few bucks on penalties from the local phone companies then fade back into the night when they made their easy money. they get line access sold to them at BELOW COST. a few legit competitors to local phone companies have come in placing their own cable and have done well....baby bells do not have "exclusive" rights to place cable anywhere...they have an obligation to place cable where companies like at&t and sprint deem it unprofitable to fool with.

    4. Re:You own WHAT? by phr2 · · Score: 1

      Please tell me more about Baby Bells not having exclusive rights to place cable. I'd like to run cable under the street from my apartment building to my office downtown. Think the city will do anything but laugh at me if I ask for that?

    5. Re:You own WHAT? by imperialstormtrooper · · Score: 1

      get liscensed by the fcc...have a business plan and liscense...pay your taxes and fees...all the same things the evil baby bells have to do...and the cable companies...and the legitimate competitors who place their own cable( http://www.knology.com). follow the procedures and you can place your equipment. just be prepared to pay the taxes,franchise fees etc. that are a cash cow for the local government. but i also want you to provide phone service to poor old pedro the migrant worker who just put a trailer 20 miles outside of town and is wanting a single phone number so his family has a line of communication to the outside world... and it also needs to hooked up the mandated 911 service in your area...and then if i want to sell him my service AFTER you spent a hundred grand getting poor little pedro his phone line you MUST sell it to me for less than the cost per month it takes to maintain it(forget about the intial cost)....

    6. Re:You own WHAT? by calidoscope · · Score: 2, Informative
      But as far as I've seen, telcos, power utilities, and cable TV companies get exclusive rights from the cities to lay cable under the street.

      The right to put stuff under the street isn't quite as exclusive as you think. In most municipalities, if you can convince the powers that be that the utility you want to put under the street is in the public interest, convenience or necessity (and you're willing to pay the appropriate fees) - then you can use the streets. I believe this is covered under franchise law (not talking about restaurant franchises here).

      An example - a company decided to approach New York City with an idea to serve the public - and make money for the company. The city said OK and New York got its first subway system. This is a little more disruptive than your fiber optic line.

      The rational for granting utilities an exclusive franchise was that it would be cheaper to have a regulated monopoly than having competing entities "wastefully" duplicating service. In return for the monopoly status, the utility would be subject to regulation. This is where I get really uncomfortable with the FCC deciding that local governments have no right to regulate telecommunications.

      As long as I'm on the soapbox - if a telecom company states it doesn't want to be subject to local regulations - then I'd say the telecom is not entitled to any special protection from local governments. Say Jim-Bob backhoe operator cuts through the fiber optic lines - I'd say "tough shit".

      Anyway, kudos to you for bringing up the issue of who owns the right of way - this is something that a lot of slashdotters have absolutely no fscking clue about.

      --
      A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
    7. Re:You own WHAT? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      even if a backhoe cuts the line, the operator/owner of the backhoe is liable. if i take a backhoe and crush your car, i would still be liable. i think i know were you were going but that might have been a bad example. btw i don't think the local govenment has any buisiness regulating the telecom. maybe if they apply to a state or federal comision that normally has oversight and they instatute the regulation but not on a local level were the citty counsol gets mad at developer x because he is sleeping with his wife or something and imposing undue regulation. this is especially hazardous when the local government don't spend the money to fully uunderstand the impact of thier regulation.

    8. Re:You own WHAT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to run my own fiber through your city's streets and then up your city's utility poles just like the phone companies do, so I can drop Ethernet cable to the homes of my subscribers, and give them moby bandwidth without having to pay an RBOC to transport data for me. Where do I sign up to do that? I can't? Didn't think so--there's a monopoly like I said.

      Have you actually tried or are you just making shit up? Because around here (Northern Minnesota) anyone can use the utility Right of Way if they agree to pay the municipality for access.

    9. Re:You own WHAT? by pavera · · Score: 1


      Since we install in greenfield master planned communities, the land developer (a private company) owns the land, and they give us easements to trench and lay the fiber, we own the fiber, the conduit said fiber is in, and we pay a monthly fee to the land developer for the easement. The land is privately held it is not owned by the city. The city owns the streets, but we aren't under the streets, we are in an easement beside the street. As other poster's have stated, any company can get easements from the gov't for hanging cables or pulling them in most munis. There are also private companies that own polls that you can string on for a fee. The big cost is not the fee to hang the cabling, it is the fee for the cabling. That is why qwest/sbc et al have not installed FTTH because the cable is too expensive.

    10. Re:You own WHAT? by mp3phish · · Score: 1

      " they get line access sold to them at BELOW COST"

      Below cost by who's measure? If you are taking the word of SBC, you haven't heard the whole story. SBC claims that "below cost" is the entire cost of laying the line and maintaining it, including upgrades over time. This might sound true... until you take into consideration two gotcha's:

      1) Universal service fund: this fund pays out to local telco's to help maintain their phone lines. They get this money in exchange for laying quality landlines to homes (in which they profit from their business) Without this fund the telco's would not have laid the wires in the first place. Add in the universal service fund, and their cost of profiding the physical line, including maintenance, drops dramatically.

      2) Lines run through public land: Without free, monopolized, unobstructed access to public and private land (which is granted to them by law free of charge) their actual cost of maintaining the landlines would skyrocket. The public is granting them free access to land they would normally have to lease and/or purchase. When the telco pays me rent each month for the wires in my yard, then and ONLY then will it be ok for them to not share those wires with my alternatives.

      SBC claims are BS. They are FAR from leasing the lines at "below cost".. they are still making profit from it. The problem with the bells is that they are losing business so their (normally) more profitable half is tanking(their services profits have turned to red ink). They are trying to say that cost to provide copper has increased. But in reality, they are trying to make up for the red ink on their services side by jacking up prices on a completely unrelated segment of their "assets": the copper. They are in red ink and have been for quite some time. mostly due to loss of customers because of overcharging. Almost ALWAYS, any time a business loses marketshare, they end up in red because of restructuring. This is exactly why SBC et al are losing money and it has NOTHING to do with leasing landlines "below cost".

      What should happen is the baby bells should be forced out of all end user markets and regulated to landline providers. The exact reason SBC has been in red ink for 2 years is the same reason this spinoff is needed: they overcharge for the copper and services to end users, so they have reason to go to their competition. They should be forced to spin off their services as long distance/ISP companies which lease from the landline providers, just like all other services telco's. This would keep the price of copper steady, universal, consistant, and priced at actual costs. No more overpricing copper to offset losses in other business segments unrelated to the cost of the lines.

      BTW, any landline provider that threatens to cut off your service because you switched to their competition has commited a federal offence. You should report them to your state's attorney general and the nearest FCC office.

      --
      Your ignorance is infinitely greater than you realize.
  27. so what will happen to the clec? by caserio · · Score: 1

    I choose the clec all the time. Verizon always tries to get into the way but they were bounded by law to allow the small guys to use there copper. Now will they all just go away? Man that is going to suck! I hate verizon.

  28. Your VOIP costs. by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

    Yep. They're gonna go up. Sometimes fair trade isn't fair to everyone.

  29. AT&T was the long distance and miscelaneous pa by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    What on earth does AT&T do these days, anyway? ... they don't do much local phone service

    AT&T hasn't done much local phone service since the courts split them up.

    AT&T was the part that got the nationwide long-distance network (along with the other miscelaneous stuff, like UNIX), going head-to-head with the upstarts like MCI and sprint. The part that did the local service was spun off as a double-handfull of regional "Baby Bell" local telephone companies.

    It's only lately that AT&T has been allowed to even THINK about playing in the local service area.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  30. interesting quote by Polo · · Score: 4, Insightful
    • "
    • Smith of SBC said that even without regulation, the regional companies will continue to give competitors access to their networks -- but at rates set by the market, not by the government."


    I wonder what "rates set by the market" means when you own the market?
    1. Re:interesting quote by imperialstormtrooper · · Score: 1

      at&t owned the longdistance market not too long ago...the rates set by the market seems to have worked out there...cell phones, cable companies(VoIP), legit local phone competitors, etc. will keep the up the heat to keep prices low...do you really think people will continue to use a wired line if it is not price and service competitive?

  31. More sides to this story... by ninejaguar · · Score: 5, Interesting
    This isn't as simple a case as at first glance. What the courts are doing is telling the FCC that they're attempts are too weak, and must come up with something better than simply letting states decide how to handle the problem. The courts in this case are on the consumer's side. It's only by accident that Powell's son is also on the court's side as the FCC's rulings, as weak as they were, was far more restrictive than his monopolistic tastes could handle. Powell's son is not a good guy. He is anti-consumer. It just happens that the court would prefer a much more decisive FCC ruling and that the FCC must contend with the problem itself and not pawn in it off to the states. This is why the court chastised the FCC. The article is full of noise by other companies claiming that this was an approval of their business practice. That is incorrect, and simply posturing. The FCC will have to come up with a consumer friendly ruling, or face more rejections from the court. If they don't, this will be decided in the Supreme Court as other litigations are winding their way up. Then you're really gonna start hearing some noise from the companies. However, by then, Powell's son will have been given the boot. Talk about nepotism. I can't believe that loser actually got such a visible post.

    = 9J =

    1. Re:More sides to this story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do know that it was Clinton that appointed Powell's son to the FCC right? It really is a VAST rightwing cnspiracy when even clinton is part of it.

    2. Re:More sides to this story... by Ryan+Amos · · Score: 1

      The point is, would he have gotten the job if his dad wasn't Colin Powell? I think not. The same could be said of our current president, but that's another issue for another day.

    3. Re:More sides to this story... by ninejaguar · · Score: 1
      That doesn't say anything other than it's just more proof for people who claim Clinton behaved more Republican than Democrat. Some say he was one of the best Republican presidents.

      = 9J =

    4. Re:More sides to this story... by leerpm · · Score: 1

      What the courts are doing is telling the FCC that they're attempts are too weak, and must come up with something better than simply letting states decide how to handle the problem. The courts in this case are on the consumer's side.

      No, I do not see how the FCC letting the individual states regulate this is anti-consumer. Each state is going to have a much better understanding of its own local market, than the FCC would of that same market. But the court has ruled that the FCC now has to come up with its own set of rules for each and every market, and it must do this within 60 days! Please tell me how this is pro-consumer? If the ruling stands, it can only lead to short-sighted and uninformed regulations going into place in all of these various markets. Because how they could possibly expect any agency to do a full indepth analysis, and come to a decision in 60 days is beyond me.

    5. Re:More sides to this story... by ninejaguar · · Score: 1
      No, I do not see how the FCC letting the individual states regulate this is anti-consumer.

      This is not my opinion, its the court's. The court is saying that this is the FCC's responsibility, and they cannot shirk it. If you have trouble with the ruling, write the court. Or, write your congressman and senator and have him write legislation to change the FCC's mission.

      Each state is going to have a much better understanding of its own local market, than the FCC would of that same market.

      Whether what you believe is true or not, the FCC exists and has a job to do. The court simply stated they must do it, and they cannot brush it off to the states. This current FCC incarnation has been caught various times trying to shlep off work to outside entities. Work that Congress has not authorized them to hand off to others. Ironically, it is the courts that are trying to stop the FCC from enfeebling itself by shirking responsibilities assigned to it by Congress.

      While you may make your arguments based on market analysis, I advise you to politically analyze the situation. It's all there within the divided ideology inside the FCC in how to execute its job according to the mission assigned to it by Congress. It is getting overwhelming signals from the White House via Powell's son that anything resembling regulation is not to be looked upon kindly. Yet, here it is with a mission from Congress to do the right thing. What's a politically squeezed quasi-governmental agency to do but to go all squishy? What comes out of it are wildly ineffectual attempts to pass the buck. It's a good thing we have courts, otherwise we'd be screwed.

      = 9J =

  32. Parallels with the TCA act of 1996? by Dukeofshadows · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When they mandated competition for local phone service via the TCA act of 1996 they put loopholes in the laws that allow some shady people to get into the phone business. It was legal for a while (and might still be) to form a small phone company, lease out the equipment and lines from the large local Bell for way below cost, charge 20% less than what it would cost the Bell company to run the thing, and make lots of profit. Not all of these little competitors do this, in fact there are lots of legitimate companies who work to provide the customer with awesome service and who provide much of their own equipment. However, the drag put on the Bell companies is rapidly causing many ofthem to hit financial trouble and cuold eventually force some of them to reorganize or try to get out of land-based phone service entirely. It should be noted that if the Bell companies falter while the shady companies are still attached to them, both the customers of shady companies and Bell customers would be at a loss.

    The law also implemented a double standard: national companies like AT&T and MCI were able to get into the local phone business while regional Bell companies could not enter the long-distance business without going through a rigorous set of checks and requirements that take years to meet (I think BellSouth is only now getting into that market 8 years later...). Overall if AT&T and MCI have had to face even an inkling of the problems over broadband that the Bell telephone companies have had to over telephones, then the law ought well to get thrown out and rewritten, IMHO.

    --
    As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
    1. Re:Parallels with the TCA act of 1996? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget that it was the RBOCs that where more than willing to lose x% of their POTS customers to competitors even if it meant selling their own competitors the same service for less, and take a loss. The reason for this was that they wanted to get into the "lucrative" LD business. Unfortunately for them competition and probably the Internet drove LD profit margins to the ground and it wasn't the lucrative business it once was.

      Now, since it was an obvious mistake, they are trying to get rid of local competition so they can go back to their old price-setting monopoly ways.

    2. Re:Parallels with the TCA act of 1996? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      You are right on, this is in fact part of the continuing saga of the TCA of 1996. The FCC has now had 8 years to come up with a legal way to allow shared access to RBOC resources failed to do so. Contrary to the inflamatory statements in the original post, this ruling doesn't have anything to do with allowing or disallowing competition in the local access market. This ruling disallows something called UNE-P unbundled network element platform, which is basically the mandated renting of telco switching (not just the local loop) facilities to competitors at a loss. CLEC's essentially leased complete phone service and resold it doing nothing more than shuffling paper. It was artificial competition, only good in the short term. The losses this caused not only hurt the LEC's but also 10's of thousands of their employees that were laid off. At the same time this discouraged investment in new network equipment and spread the burden of support across the fewer remaining employees. (Keep in mind that most of the CLEC's utilizing UNE-P didn't have support staffs of their own) This led to reduced service for both RBOC and CLEC customers. I am so glad to see that you took the time to articulate the issue amongst all of this leftist FUD. This issue had nothing to do with competition, this was about fair play. CLEC's are still perfectly capable of putting in their own switches and competing head to head, they still have access to the local loops after this ruling.

    3. Re:Parallels with the TCA act of 1996? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Well the interesting part is that the TCA you mention says that they were to provide the access at cost. If thier faultering is because of this then they aren't costing out thier services properly. i can see a little revenue drop by clients switching to cheaper services but if thier costing is acurate they should see no impact outside of the pure profit.

      Any companie should be able to either resize acording to this need or at the minimun, stucture thier pricing to be competative. It's not like they are being asked to give the service away, just give access to it at cost.

      Now the funny thing about this the mini bell companies on several ocasions tend to treat others companies with less of a priority and sometimes even create problems along the way to purposely give bad service to customers that no longer use "thier" service. This was increasingly evident when DSL providers first tried to compete with the bell's T1 lines. For several years providers failed and got out of the offering because they couln't keep the lines running and had other problems that only effected them. Another incedent wich is a personal one, was were we were going to change our local service on two different ocasions to one that included free in state long distance. Each and every time about 2-3 weeks before the switch was supposed to happen, a problem arose on our line that wouln't let us dial out or recive incoming calls. After 1 or 2 weeks without reliable phone service we decided not to switch and everythign was miraculasly fine untill our other attemp. This wasn't coincidenal and was being cause by somethign outside our building (2 different contractors check our wireing as well as the bell south people)and in thier network.

      I'm sad to see this court ruling but think it will be won on appeals and in the end just cost the consumer more money.

    4. Re:Parallels with the TCA act of 1996? by DougWhite · · Score: 1

      This is true. I know SBC runs up several million in fines every year for failing to keep the unbundled lines they are forced to sell operational.

    5. Re:Parallels with the TCA act of 1996? by DougWhite · · Score: 1

      This double standard was necessary. Those complicated steps were to make sure the Baby bells released their monopoly control over one area in order to compete in long distance. The long distance market was already competitive. If the Baby bells were allowed to bundle long distance with their local monopoly they would destory the competition in the long distance market.

      Currently all the local bells are allowed to compete for long distance in their regional area save for a few holdout states. SBC has become the worst telemarketing offender placing 6 calls since 2004 asking me to switch. Now here is the funny thing the no monthly fee rate they are offering me for long distance is 5 cents a minute. The local toll rate (calls over 15 miles) I have to pay is 7 cents a minute.

    6. Re:Parallels with the TCA act of 1996? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an employee for a CLEC in the Minneapolis area, I can speak from experience that Qwest has even undercut our contracted rates with other companies to try to put us under.

      http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/20 02 /02/11/daily3 8.html

      If federally mandated rates were such a burden for them, they would have been looking for a taxpayer bail-out by now. Our taxes put that copper out there, so anyone should have a fair shot at the resource.

  33. Re:No competition? Wrong. by nelsonal · · Score: 1

    If anything this should speed the roll out of cable telephony since the competitors prices just increaed.

    --
    Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
  34. Re:No competition? Wrong. by homer_ca · · Score: 1

    Cell phones work fine for voice, but they don't work for dialup Internet (well they do, but it's slow and expensive). As long as you have some option for Internet access, the cell phone is a much better deal than a landline.

  35. Why is it that.. by dj245 · · Score: 1
    Why do people seem to want to promote their long distance providers? When I tell people that I no longer have a landline and have gone VoiP because a landline was way too expensive (in effect, promoting my provider) everyone I have talked to then says something like this:

    "Have you considered Service X? They have this Y plan for only $Z a month. Its saving me money."

    This is very irritating. Have other people encountered this regularly too? MCI seems to be the worst lot, with their $50 plan. Apparently they want people to be in their 'neighborhood' or something. Sure, mod me offtopic, but the parent post does this too, mentioning his specific Voip service. A lot of other previous posts have done this too. Is this some sort of social phenomenon where phone companies have actually convinced their customers to advertize for them?

    I've tried to avoid mentioning my specific service provider, as its the subject of this post.

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    1. Re:Why is it that.. by PetWolverine · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think this is the free advertising you take it as. Rather, it's something consumers have learned to do in order to survive. Phone companies are not always very forthcoming about their prices, but it's unlikely that a customer of theirs would lie to make them look better. So, people talk to one another about their phone service, and for those who have spent time shopping around for a good provider, perhaps their own service seems like an obvious thing to bring up in a conversation about phone companies.

      --
      I found the meaning of life the other day, but I had write-only access.
  36. Re:No competition? Wrong. by tdwebste · · Score: 1
    2) Cell phones.

    Please don't tell me you think there is any real competition in the US cell phone market.

    Each company needs to construct its own towers nation wide. This cost allow effectively keeps out competition. In other countries such as Hong Kong were the cell phone service providers rent tower time, service is a lot cheaper. And you will not believe it, customer service does not suck like it does in the US. Until the US market is broken into tower providers and cell phone service providers there will be no effective competition.

    Isn't that why internet is reasonally priced in the US. The phone companies are required to lease access to the local teleco switch office. "Creating competition". I guess competition is NOT good for business.

    Someone please explain how this decision is good for me as a consumer.

  37. the world was a better place... by bsDaemon · · Score: 1

    ...when there was just AT&T. No telemarketing, no John Stamose 10-10-987, no hassle, no worries.

  38. MOD PARENT UP by bluelantern · · Score: 1

    Not every court decision is the end of the line and many are just passing the buck back to the parties involved to make clearer their ideas instead of leaving the issues vague out of laziness or lack of desire to offend.

  39. Its no big deal by poofyhairguy82 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    We live in a wireless world. Future wireless standards will soon have the bandwidth of a cable modem anyway. This ruling will just making those technologies role out cheaper and faster (since that's now where the future money is). SBC is already getting into satellite networks. Mmmm. Good two way satellite.

    Plus, if fiber isn't shared, then more will have to be put down (more for everyone). The largest problem I foresee is if is if the applies to power lines as well (which would kill many beneficial deregulation efforts all over the country).

    1. Re:Its no big deal by lovswr · · Score: 1

      I for one use my Earthlink DSL primarily for playing Q3. As I live just south of Atlanta, & there are several hosted Q3 severs in the Metro area, a 40ms ping is not uncommon. A geosynchronous satellite link will add, as a minimun, a 2000ms (as in almost 1 second up & then 1 second back down) delay that is inherent in RF propagation of such distances. That is unacceptable.

  40. Whoa whoa whoa...back up a second by Atario · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You can get fiber you your home for $80 a month?? Where do I sign up?!

    --
    "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
    1. Re:Whoa whoa whoa...back up a second by PacoTaco · · Score: 1, Funny

      Try here.

  41. At SBC by z4ce · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I knew some people not far below the CTO level at SBC. These regulations basically made it impossible for them to roll out new services. If they would add new lines, they would have to pay to roll out the lines then have to sell them to competitors at a loss.

    These regulations really were slowing the spread of broadband technologies. Of course, the question comes so how should it be priced? The government set prices will always be wrong. Making it either unprofitable for the regional telco or the CELC.

    If the regional telco gets to set the prices, it will of course be way too high.

    The only logical thing I can think of is to do exactly what the court did, throw out the regulations.

    Luckily a host of new technologies should force the telcos to be competitive in the "Communications" space. We have two-way satellite, cell phone-based internet access, wi-fi internet access, broadband over power, and currently most importantly cable modems. In Chicago, my dad actually had a cable modem/VoIP thing sitting outside his house with a little UPS. He had no idea it wasn't using traditional phones lines. He just knew he only had one bill, from the cable company.

    This kind of situation should bring about very low prices without the regulation side effects. Considering how easy it is to switch with number portability and all it should bring about some beautiful Bertend, Duopoly competition.

    1. Re:At SBC by PetWolverine · · Score: 1

      In Chicago, my dad actually had a cable modem/VoIP thing sitting outside his house with a little UPS. He had no idea it wasn't using traditional phones lines.

      Does he know whether he will continue to have a phone, and for how long, if the power goes out? The setup had a UPS, but how long would that UPS last, and how long will the one at the cable company's end of things last?

      Does he know whether he is guaranteed to be able to connect to 911 in case of emergency?

      Will he have a telephone if the cable goes out? How often did the cable go out compared with the phone, back when he had a phone? Is the new "phone" as reliable as the old one?

      These are all risky questions with VoIP. If you do your research before selecting a service, you should be safe--or at worst, you're knowingly and willingly giving up your safety. For a cable company to offer a service like that without even telling the customer that the phone service isn't over a traditional phone line is terribly irresponsible marketing.

      --
      I found the meaning of life the other day, but I had write-only access.
    2. Re:At SBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These are all risky questions with VoIP. If you do your research before selecting a service, you should be safe--or at worst, you're knowingly and willingly giving up your safety.

      Beh! Telco COs are run by giant UPSs too. They have deisel generators to back them up, of course, but I think you'd be surprised how often those generators fail when they're needed.

      Besides, when it comes to safety, landline E911 no longer has that much advantage to cellular. People nowadays have many more options when it comes to alerting the authorities. For that matter, a cat burgler or rap1st would find it easier to isolate a house with a landline than a resident with a cell phone.. whether its VoIP or POTS.

      Will he have a telephone if the cable goes out?

      On the same note, will he have a telephone if the telephone goes out?

      If he gets his phone over the cable and someone cuts it, of course he won't have service. However, with cable co's now being required to carry HD programming and upgrading their plant to HFC and two-way DOCSIS compliance, the cable plant has become MUCH much more reliable than it was just a decade ago. They've been collectively working their way to "carrier-class" for a while now.

  42. Re:AT&T was the long distance and miscelaneous by imperialstormtrooper · · Score: 1

    the 1996 law gave companies like at&t and mci the right to get into phone service,while restricting the baby bells right to get into long distance. the long distance companies have been in local service, but they only target dense business districts with higher profit margins than residential markets. baby bells are required to serve everyone,regardless of profitability(sometimes spending thousands of dollars to serve 1 customer). all while having to jump through hoops to try to get into long distance and being heavily regulated. all the while the cable tv gestapo serves who they want,when they want and can jack up your freaking bill ten bucks a month without a damn warning....they're all bastards that are watching me through the powerlines anyway....i know they do....

  43. Ha, ha - AT&T telemarketer just called by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Right after I saw this post, an AT&T telemarketer called, asking me to switch to their "new local service" in my area. I guess her timing couldn't have been worse.

  44. Insightful? by Night+Goat · · Score: 0

    Mods, how is asking a question "insightful?" The answer might be insightful, but asking a question usually allows someone to gain insight.

    1. Re:Insightful? by AvengerXP · · Score: 1

      The question is usually much more important than the answer in terms of insight. It shows intelligence. The answer is just processed facts. Facts don't denote intelligence. But facts with insight intermixed can be insightful. Better?

      --
      Trolls dont like to be Flamebait, because they burn so well. Protect our Troll heritage!
    2. Re:Insightful? by Night+Goat · · Score: 1

      OK, but where's the insight in asking why the USTA said the statement they did? Now if the USTA was on Slashdot and clarified their position, there's some insight.

    3. Re:Insightful? by cardshark2001 · · Score: 1
      Mods, how is asking a question "insightful?" The answer might be insightful, but asking a question usually allows someone to gain insight.

      Do too you're low user number I'm saprised you our asking that question.

      The mods decide when too give points. Dont complain when you loose. </satire>

      --
      WWJD? JWRTFA!
    4. Re:Insightful? by Moofie · · Score: 1

      If you've never heard an insightful question, you've never been in a classroom where there were people who were smarter than you, and I feel sorry for you.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    5. Re:Insightful? by Night+Goat · · Score: 1

      Best comment I've seen in a while. Now that is insightful!

    6. Re:Insightful? by Night+Goat · · Score: 1

      Oh, I've heard insightful questions, this just isn't one of them. An insightful question has to bring a new idea to the discussion, this unfortunately does not.

    7. Re:Insightful? by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Then we should mod you (-1 Non-specific).

      : )

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    8. Re:Insightful? by PleaseDontBeTaken · · Score: 1

      The informative "PDA" commercial informing me that my local phone co wants to bring me the future faster is just the ED ads where they don't actually mention the product because they might run afoul of the truth in advertising laws.

      ED - read "male trouble"

      --
      --
    9. Re:Insightful? by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      There can be questions that are insightful. A question may reveal the true nature of something than the answer or some description. A lot of philosophical questions are insightful. I don't know if these are good examples but here are some:

      Why is the point of living?
      What is beyond the universe?

      Sivaram Velauthapillai

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
  45. Re:No competition? Wrong. by imperialstormtrooper · · Score: 1

    this does not hurt real competition...it hurts shady-fly-by-night-pawnshop-make-a-buck-by-exploit ing-the-system-con-artists fake competition...

  46. ILECs will still be required to provide loops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    People seem to be misreading the ruling. There are two issues involved:

    1) The Telcom act requires the ILECs (incumbent carriers) to offer Unbundled Network Elements (UNEs) as part of the "deal" for being allowed back into long distance.

    2) The FCC and State commissions set the rates for the UNEs. In most cases, this results in the CLECs getting UNEs for a price that is lower than it costs the ILEC to provice the service. This has the effect of effectively "charging" ILEC phone customers extra in order to subsidise their own competitors.

    As the ruling was explained to us (I work in the wholesale IT department of one of the ILECs), it only affects the pricing (item 2), NOT the UNE rules. ILECs will still be required to provide UNEs, but at the same price as they charge to the retail department of the ILEC. (The retail part of the ILEC does the marketing to individual customers, and provides the value add services like voice messaging.)

    It also looke like this is going to be appealed to the Supreme Court, so the immediate effect is zero.

  47. effect != affect by Trejkaz · · Score: 1

    I think there is a difference between these two words. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    --
    Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
    1. Re:effect != affect by whmac33 · · Score: 1

      There's a difference, but the real question is was the proper one used.

  48. F the FCC by stull13 · · Score: 3, Funny

    As unpopular an opinion as this may be, I am happy any time the authority of the FCC is challenged in any way.

    The FCC is an unelected arm of the government that already has far too much control. We may applaud their efforts to limit the power of corporations, but how do we feel when they limit what we are allowed to see/hear/think? We can't have it both ways.

    The next time you think it is a good idea to grant any power to the FCC at all, ask yourself how you would feel if you didn't have Howard Stern during your morning commute.

    1. Re:F the FCC by pangian · · Score: 1

      Yeah sorry, I'm going to take the bait and disagree with you on that. The telecoms (wireline) bureau of the FCC is actually pretty good; having made reasonably sensible policy over time that has generally been in the consumers interest. These guys are pure economists that don't seem to get as much pressure to make political positions. This probably owes partly to the fact that phones aren't as public (if I swear or expose my breast over the phone, only the person on the other end--probably my mother--suffers) and partly because its an area where competition is actually increasing--due to cell, cable, etc--rather than having increased competition for limited bandwidth.

      The media bureau is problematic, not as you suggest because they are unelected and unaccountable, but rather precisely because they aren't insulated from political pressure. The head of the FCC is a political appointee that often chooses/is forced to pander to those who want to limit what you are allowed to see/hear/think.

    2. Re:F the FCC by toast0 · · Score: 1

      #1) Morning commutes are herd mentality, I have a job where I commute when the freeways are clear thanks.

      #2) Howard stern is an asshat, and not terribly entertaining. If I'm going to listen to people talk, I'd prefer to listen to something with intellegence, and perhaps wit; or maybe I'd just like to listen to music.

      #3) Yes, the FCC has too much power, however it is nice that nearly everything I own is required to deal with interference.

    3. Re:F the FCC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      #1) you're a fucking idiot

    4. Re:F the FCC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The next time you think it is a good idea to grant any power to the FCC at all, ask yourself how you would feel if you didn't have Howard Stern during your morning commute.

      Elated.

  49. cry me more crocodile tears... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "rigorous checks" the Bell companies had to meet was basically whether or not they were allowing anyone else into the local phone business. So...in reality AT&T, MCI, etc. were not able to get into the local phone business anywhere the Bell companies could not (very shortly thereafter) get into the long distance business.

  50. corporate tri-uph by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

    " In a 3-0 ruling by the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, the judges wrote that the FCC [...]lacks the authority to delegate responsibility for setting those rates to the states. The court also ruled the FCC had failed to prove that competitors in the local phone market are 'impaired' without government-regulated access to critical parts of the phone network controlled by the regional giants."

    Sounds like Verizon is paying off more than just Supremes Scalia and Rhenquist. What could possibly convince them that telcos charging markups and delays to carried competitors isn't a decisive advantage? And since the FCC delegated its tariffs to the states, wouldn't a more appropriate remedy be to force the FCC to merely use the state tariffs as the (determinant) basis for a federal tariff structure, tailored for different conditions regionally, rather than throw out any tariff or authority at all? This is a corporate coup that kills everyone but incumbent carriers and paid-off judges.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  51. VoIP is the future anyway by geekee · · Score: 1

    It doesn't matter whether or not the govt. makes local phone carriers share their networks. VoIP is the future anyway, and their is competition since this can be done over cable, wireless, or twisted pair. Making local carriers share their networks isn't real competition anyway. It's just another form of regualtion where the phone company is forced to give competitors bandwidth at a regulated rate, which doesn't change things much from forcing the phone company to give you service at a regulated rate.

    --
    Vote for Pedro
    1. Re:VoIP is the future anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, voice over IP is not in my future. You see, there is this little issue known as latency. My internet provider is the local cable company, and the IP connection they give me has a latency that varies but often hits 30 or 40 ms. I hate to say it, but that is not low-latency. And that is without the inevitable 1/4 sec or whatever of buffering that you MUST have if you are going to run audio across the open Internet and minimize (note: not eliminate) dropouts.

      Basically, voice over IP is cheap, but it is an inferior technology, and I don't plan to switch to it, since I get my phone service at quite a reasonable price as it is.

  52. Ma Bell is coming back? by CyberVenom · · Score: 1

    Hey, give it a few years and maybe all the baby bells will merge back into Ma Bell, and all of the old school phreakers will once again be presented with a standardized interface to reverse engineer. >;-}
    Maybe they will even absorb AOL/Time/Warner...
    Hmmm. So Bell will own the wiring, but they can't (God, I hope not!) own the air! Wireless will be the last-mile technology of the future anyway after the real engineers make it [more] secure and usable instead of simple being the novelty item it is today. (ok, I admit, I run an open network with one computer where I could more easily have used a CAT5 cable, but it is cool to play with and it works well when freinds visit. I watch the network carefully anyway for excessive leeching... I don't mind if people borrow a little bandwidth, as long as it doesn't get in my way.)

    1. Re:Ma Bell is coming back? by Buelldozer · · Score: 1

      Aren't you paying attention to the screams of the Amatuer Radio Operators on this BBOP deal? The FCC sets the regs on the airwaves as well, which means that if your precious Wireless ISP doesn't pony up the $$$ and somene elses system tromps on it....well you better start shopping.

  53. The Golden Rule by deck · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The USA applies the golden rule: He who has the gold rules.,/p>

    Did you think I was going to say something about do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This country is headed to the corporatist state (and the ruling party doesn't matter -- they both give in to BIG business). This is just another step down that path.

  54. I protest this article by claytongulick · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does anyone realize that in order to "allow" competition this forces Verizon to sub-lease out their phone lines at BELOW cost?

    This is a return to Monopoly? Ridiculous. Verizon was being forced by the FCC to basically hand out cash to any telecom company that wanted it. This has obvious results, Verizon won't invest in those lines, since it is LOSING MONEY.

    The only realm left to Verizon (other than wireless) is the broadband market. Verizon has invested billions of dollars in DSL and in fiber to expand the reach of broadband to 80% of the homes in the US. Now they are deploying FTTP which will give us data rates in the 100s of megabits.

    So there are two options, either regulate them into non-existance and force them to sell bandwidth to competitors who have invested NOTHING, or to let them reap the rewards of the capital they have invested and to keep the muddling hands of the government out of broadband regulation.

    --
    Drinking habits can be dangerous. You can choke on the cloth and the nuns will wonder where their clothes are.
    1. Re:I protest this article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, regardless of how much their costs actually are, we can rely on their department of creative accounting to show conclusive proof that they are forced to sell line capacity below cost. Even if said capacity was built and paid for by government subsidies in the 1930's.

  55. Existing Agreements? by lizardbox · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I would like to know if anyone has any insight on what will happen to exising agreements that current CLEC's have with the RBOC's.

    Also, I wanted to through my cents in. I don't know if anyone noticed, but this is not going to make much difference (if you look into my future glass ball). In a year or so, SBC or Bell South will buy MCI (after they come out of bankruptcy). AT&T will also be bought. There will be more steps taken towards the consolidation of the telecom industry. We will once again be back with 1 or 2 huge phone companies (providing both local and long distance services). They can bundle in dsl, they can add voip services, and might as well buy the local cable company or even better yet, merge with a national cable company. (Or a parternship ala time warner + MCI style). Whether the TCOM ACT of 1996 remains in effect or not, the telco's will once again be too huge for the little guy to survive.

    Do not worry though, the telecom act of 2016 will break said companies back up again! (in the return of Judge Greene!)

    --
    -Carpe Diem (lizardbox)
  56. Greatnews! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Too late for Lucent, these discounts made it impossible for RBOCs to invest in new technology as they had to resell at a loss and Lucent died with no product orders. Now with the opportunity to make a profit they can put some great technology in place! Once the court order has settled down we should see some real growth in the technology sector!

  57. Bad electronics? by Annirak · · Score: 3, Funny
    The DC Circuit Court of Appeals
    And here I thought most telecom was AC coupled. I guess that's the problem right there! They used the wrong court. Take this to the AC Circuit Court of appeals and see how the decision goes.
    1. Re:Bad electronics? by Endive4Ever · · Score: 1

      The ringer mechanism is AC coupled. When you take the phone off the hook you establish a DC circuit.

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      ---
  58. Re:AT&T was the long distance and miscelaneous by DougWhite · · Score: 1

    AT&T is currently the largest competitor in the local bell monopoly system.

    My mom used to have their digital phone line, and when they sold their cable division to Comcast they called her about a month later telling her they would appreciate her business. She asked them if the aprreciated it so much, then why did they sell it to another company

  59. Verizon explained by danielsfca2 · · Score: 1

    More correctly, they merged. Verizon comprises the former Bell Atlantic, NYNEX, and GTE companies.

  60. Well, the FCC sucks anyway ... by The+Mensa+Moron · · Score: 1

    Just ask George Carlin:

    The FCC, the Federal Communications Commision, decided all by itself that radio and television were the only to parts of american life not protected by the free speech provision of the first amendment to the constitution.

    I'd like to repeat that, because it sounds vaguegly important.

    The FCC, an appointed body - not elected, answerable only to the president decided on its own, that radio and television were the only two parts of american life not protected by the first amendment to the constitiution, and why did they decide that? Because they got a letter from a minister in Missisippi!

    A reverend Donald Wildmon in Missisippi heard something on the radio that he didn't like! Well reverend - did anyone ever tell you there are two knobs on the radio? Two knobs on the radio!

    Of course I'm sure the reverend isn't that comfortable with anything that has two knobs on it. But hey reverend, there are two knobs on the radio; one of them turns the radio off, and the other one - changes the station! Imagine that reverend, you can actually change the station! It's called freedom of choice and it's one of the principles this country was founded upon. Look it up in the library, reverend, if you have any of them left when you're finished burning all the books!

    1. Re:Well, the FCC sucks anyway ... by SharkJumper · · Score: 1

      Here I go taking off-topic bait, but I...just...can't...help myself...

      I'm stretching my memory back to a couple mass comm law classes that I had to endure, so I'm sure someone can fill in the finer points a little better than I. The restrictions placed on radio and broadcast television are based on the concept of "limited spectrum." In the cases of radio and television, there are only so many stops on the frequency spectrum that are useful for broadcast over the airwaves without interference. In order to be useful, there must only be one radio or television broadcast at a given point on the spectrum in a given geographical region. Do you think the television and radio companies would line up and wait their turn for a place on the spectrum? No, they would set up shop and try to broadcast over their competitors, causing chaos on all frequencies and probably nuking neighborhood children caught in the middle of escalating signal strength wars. So, in order to actually make the spectrum useful and eliminate predatory practices, the spectrum must be regulated. In steps the FCC.

      So, now we have a limited number of broadcasters in any given region. We still have competitors lined up and willing to broadcast on these frequencies. So, how do we decide who gets to broadcast? Do we play first come, first serve? Highest bidder? Do we farkle for it? No, we go by content. What content? Content that is in the PUBLIC INTEREST. And here is where the 1st amendment argument breaks down. The 1st amendment is fine for an unlimited spectrum. You are free to set up a newspaper and distribute your views to your heart's content. You can stand on a soapbox and yell your views. The spectrum is limited only by your message, talent, money, abilities, volume of your voice, number of people that walk by, etc. Your voice will be heard in the public forum and examined in the marketplace of ideas and accepted or rejected based on its merits. With a limited spectrum, the standard is the PUBLIC INTEREST. Public airwaves, public interest. See?

      So, who decides what is in the public interest? The public of course! Who is the public? You, for one. Reverend Donald Wildmon for another. How do you excercise your voice as a member of the public to determine what is in your best interests? You make your view known to the FCC. Of course, keep in mind that you may be overruled by the vast majority of people who don't find it in the public interest for their children to hear George Carlin's seven dirty words. But, hey, you always have cable. Less limited spectrum, less limited regulation. Tivo George Carlin, and thumb your nose at the FCC.

      SharkJumper

    2. Re:Well, the FCC sucks anyway ... by Steve+B · · Score: 1
      The restrictions placed on radio and broadcast television are based on the concept of "limited spectrum."

      Head to the downtown area of your nearest major city. Count the number of different local newspapers. Count the number of different local radio and TV stations.

      Which medium has the most "limited spectrum"?

      So, how do we decide who gets to broadcast? Do we play first come, first serve? Highest bidder?

      Works for me. One of the two has generally worked for dividing up other limited commodities.

      No, we go by content. What content? Content that is in the PUBLIC INTEREST.

      As decided by politicians, who generally couldn't find the "public interest" during the public interest mating season if you doused them with public interest scent. Not that it matters, since they simply use this term as a synonym for their own interests.

      How do you excercise your voice as a member of the public to determine what is in your best interests?

      You twiddle one of those two knobs mentioned at the beginning of this thread, of course.

      --
      /. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
  61. Re:No competition? Wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do you disagree with?

    Do you disagree that there is more competition in the Hong Kong cellular market? And by the way there is laws against fly by night operations. Fraud is a very major offence in Hong Kong.

    Or perhaps you feel that the US internat market is currently full of fly by night operators, because it has competition.

  62. Re:No competition? Wrong. by whmac33 · · Score: 1

    Unless you have kids. My son decided to start talking on the phone more and watching minutes got old real fast.

  63. The issue at hand by leerpm · · Score: 1

    The court ruled on the issue of "whether the FCC had the authority to allow states to decide when the Baby Bells must allow competitors access to their voice switching networks". The court decided the FCC did not, and thus "it gave the FCC 60 days to come up with its own rules for each individual market throughout the United States."

    CNET News.com has good coverage on the ruling. So far the feedback on the decision is that it is so unfounded and ridiculous, that it is almost certain to be overturned by the Supreme Court (they are appealing after all!).

  64. Govt telco monopolies are the go by DABANSHEE · · Score: 1

    In the telco business fixed costs are a disproportionate part of the total costs, making economies of scale king, so the best way to cut costs is by having one single provider with 100% of the market (remember the costs of a national cell phone company with 1/3 of the market arn't significantly lower than a national cell phone company with 100% of the market, well relativelly speaking anyway)

    Now no one wants a private monopoly that free to charge what they want, so the go is a govt telco monopoly - meaning polies have to worry about voter reaction if they charge too much.

    So the best way to resolve this is for govts to charge enormous fees for cables running in public air-space & ground space, then buy out the 1st big telco when it's shares drop enough. Then the govt can charge nominal public air/ground-space rents to itself, making all the other telcos uncompetitive.

    Of course countries that still have govt telcos are way ahead - look at Singapore

  65. That SUCKS! by SCHecklerX · · Score: 1
    When comcast took over the local cable company, it ran my cable ISP out of business. Luckily because of the phone regulations, they were able to survive as a DSL provider. Now that seems like it will go away, so we will have to rely on one of the local monopolies for Internet access. That likely means no more providing web/mail services for small groups like my cycling team.

    This type of stuff really annoys me.

  66. Just watch your favorite Big Media (e.g. FOX) news by KarmaOverDogma · · Score: 1

    (assuming that they even cover this) and they'll let you know how you feel about it.

    .

    --
    uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
  67. Verizon/Ameritech/et.al. define their own strawmen by FreeUser · · Score: 1

    Does anyone realize that in order to "allow" competition this forces Verizon to sub-lease out their phone lines at BELOW cost?

    This assumes the local telco's claim as to cost is honest. A long and very checkered history suggests otherwise

    This is a return to Monopoly? Ridiculous.

    It is probably a return to local telco monopoly, and is a disservice to anyone who has ever been afflicted with the need to deal with the local Baby Bells. For the end user/customer, this is a very bad development at best. Some things cable and cell phones can't replace (some in-house front-door intercoms won't work with a cell for example, forcing one to have a land line. Thanks to this ruling, this will mean being forced to do business with the likes of Ameritech or Verizon, regardless of how appalling the companies behave).

    Verizon was being forced by the FCC to basically hand out cash to any telecom company that wanted it. This has obvious results, Verizon won't invest in those lines, since it is LOSING MONEY.

    How exactly does Verizon define (read: inflate) cost I wonder. There are abuses on all sides, including a long history of people like Ameritech (our local Verizon equivelent) artificially inflating "costs" in order to gouge the competition and effectively keep them out of markets. Thus, the FCC had to define what the costs were. I am skeptical as to whether or not they really are "below actual costs" or not.

    There is only one way to clear this up. Nationalize the copper infrastructure, support it as a public works project in a manner similiar to the highway system, and let all telcos offer services on top of the wire under terms of equal access. Some things government is better at than private industry: maintaining natural monopolies in a fair and reasonable manner (water services, sewage, and roads are existing examples: communication and power lines are an obvious and IMHO acutely needed addition).

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  68. Re:No competition? Wrong. by cr0sh · · Score: 1

    Actually, is this really true? I mean, perhaps at one time it was - but I was googling the other day and looked up "tower colocation" - apparently, in some manner, it is possible to colo on a tower, renting "space" on the tower (I was looking to see if this was possible in the instance of WiFi mesh networks). This seems to be something real...

    --
    Reason is the Path to God - Anon
  69. You people are idiots. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work for MCI and so I have alot of insight into this particular situation. The incumbent companies are making TONS OF MONEY. On top of the price that MCI pays to lease each line (Not provide service, either real or customer service) they also get the 6.50$ Federal Subscriber Line Charge that every phone line in America has on it. (7.00$ for the second line) This payment goes directly to the ILEC to support and maintain thier networks. So even if you have MCI or AT&T you still pay to keep your copper running, AND you pay for your CLEC to lease the line. These companies are bloated and inefficient. They want to blame thier problems on competition. Its not the competition, its thier gross inefficiency. They cant make enough money to keep their network running without millions and millions of customers. MCI can do exactly what SBC does for 50c on the dollar, and its making them lose customers. Rather than adapt and become better at business and service (Which you dont have to do under a government enforced monopoly) they prefer to lobby so that they can go back to being lazy and non-innovative. Competition lowers prices. Competition lowers And NO, Life was not better when AT&T owned it all. It was 35c a min, at night, on Sunday.

  70. BellSouth can lick my balls... by Raistlin77 · · Score: 1

    I refuse to get service from them now, as I have Vonage (vonage.com) and cable broadband. I pay less for both Comcast broadband and Vonage to have everything I had with BellSouth and more. Wanna make a difference? Go to Vonage or another similar service and switch your ISP to any non-phoneline dependent service. I guarantee that in a year or two, the competition will be allowed to return.

  71. Re:No competition? Wrong. by Raistlin77 · · Score: 1

    It will not hurt cable companies one bit... on the contrary, if the bell companies increase their prices for DSL/Phone Service, the cable companies will be able to do the same. Since the cable companies own their lines and are the direct connection to the customer, they can be directly compared to the bell companies. This would relate the same as if Comcast was forced by the FCC to allow Charter (or any other cable tv provider) to use their networks. But fortunately for the cable companies, it is far more difficult to share their network than it is for the bell companies. Cable is not run over fiber, it is all coaxial. For them to share their network they would have to do massive upgrades to their systems and wiring, because if not, the overbearing traffic would seriously degrade the performance so bad that they would probably start losing customers to the bell companies. The reason cable did not take off so quickly in the beginning was because people were worried that the more customers were using cable, the worse performance would be.

  72. Yes, the cake too... by mp3phish · · Score: 1

    Not only do they have their cake (landlines laid that they "own" paid for mostly by the federal government ie. your tax dollars) but they get to eat it too (full controlled monopoly which was origionally granted and regulated by the federal government specifically because of this universal service fund tax payment).

    Way to go and fuck you SBC.

    --
    Your ignorance is infinitely greater than you realize.