Ahhhh. Here's twitter again calling everyone he doesn't like a "troll".
I don't get your point. Perhaps you'd also like to show us the percentage of those revenues that come from Linux, and maybe proof that these companies were not making money before they started doing whatever they're doing with Linux. Or even proof that the fact they are making money comes from the fact that they are using Linux. Not that I contest the fact that they are making money off Linux, no. But then you go off and say...
People are making money with free software, get over it.
... because we all know that IBM and HP were essentially bankrupt before they discovered open source.
In reality, one of the few companies to actually pull a profit is RedHat, and it took them a veritable eternity to break even. Not necessarily bad, but hardly a glowing testament to how you can make money off something that is given away to begin with. Mandrake had to resort to handouts. I don't know if SuSE ever made a profit before being bought out by Novell.
Oh and twitter, I hope you actually reply instead of just "slithering away" (your words) after someone calls you on your bullshit.
Note also that Windows uses a lot of "cheats" (or clever programming, depending on who you ask) to make the system appear fast
Here we go...
for instance showing the login screen for Windows 2000 and its successors BEFORE the system has finished loading and all daemons have started running.
This is true. True more so for XP than 2000. But that doesn't make it any faster because there's still a couple of seconds where you can't do jack shit even though the screen is already "drawn". Never fooled me, really. But then again, I've never seen Linux (any distro with any window manager or not) boot faster than Windows. I'm sure you can boot Linux in about 3 seconds if you spend 4 months tweaking it and that's been done as a cool geek experiment, but the average Linux user (if there's ever such a thing) probably won't go there anyway, and neither will the major user-oriented distros.
And also we have the thing with IE and lots of other MS software being loaded in the background wether you ask or not
OK, let's do a little experiment. Load up Windows. Download Geoshell and reboot. Now, load up Process explorer and try to find a single instance of a process mapping the IE render library (mshtml). No? OK, now load IE. How fast was that? Now load Mozilla or Firefox. This whole "oh teh M$ is teh cheat" is absolutely bogus. IE is simply fast, and Mozilla is simply slow. Period. That doesn't make one a better browser than the other, but I'm not going there.
and only hiding the icons instead of unloading them when the user tries to "close" them thereby sacrificing memory to gain percieved speed for the user.
What exactly do you mean? When I close a window I expect the process to go away and be unloaded. If anything the executable image will remain in memory and it will load without swapping next time, but are you saying that Windows "hides" windows instead of unloading their processes when I ask it to? That's nuts. Or are you referring to this? Heh. You really don't believe the argument that this problem is a Microsoft issue, right? Because the only application that has that problem happens to be Mozilla.
It is, but it doesn't matter. The editorial quip hath spoken and the lunatic zealots have made up their minds. Funny nobody reports on all the IBM patents that cover dumb things like these - thousands of them per year.
Your attempt at making it seem like an innovation is dissappointing even for Microsoft standards. Where's the jargoned up spiel about M$'s new paradigms and methods? That.NET reference and the mention of different languages, as if other compiler collections did not exist is a start.
Don't fly off the handle now. His comment was regarding something VS.NET does, which is nothing new by itself (even vi and Emacs will highlight 'NOTE' and 'TODO' entries in comments), except that the IDE will add the note as a task in a separate UI widget for later reference. Your blathering rant about.NET is offtopic otherwise.
Further, the AutoComplete thing is not necessarily new, but Microsoft did it right. As another poster mentioned, Quicken had something like it. I remember Lotus Organizer also had a crude version of the same (rough) functionality.
Microsoft however were the first to integrate this into the browser, not only in the address bar but in HTML forms as well. I'd like to see some proof (if you have it) that there was a browser implementation of this technology before IE4.
AutoComplete is also part of the Windows shell, and you can use it in your own applications, binding things like the internet history, favorites or the filesystem, or even create your own lists. Go on over to CodeProject.com and search for 'AutoComplete', and then come back and show me the KDE or whatever equivalent to that.
I like the way that KDE's IDE autogenerates html helpfiles and other documentation just like this. I'd like to see those morons at Microsoft try to extort money from anyone who would like to use or distribute KDE. Actually, I would not. I really want them to just take their ill gotten gains and leave the rest of us alone.
KDevelop, you mean? have you ever actually used it? It doesn't "auto generate" anything, and neither does Visual Studio, although they have that capability if you want to use it (admittedly VS.NET is superior in this area, though not on others). In any case, this was not KDE's invention by a long shot as there were IDEs that integrated with doxygen way before KDevelop existed. And who the hell is "extorting money" from people who use KDE? Your weird twisted "M$" hatred got you off course again?
I can't believe you keep being modded up for these types of obvious flamebait posts.
Are you saying Netscape invented "bookmarks"? Nope, they were there in Mosaic. And they were called "bookmarks". Microsoft labeled them "favorites" and uses individual files instead of a single HTML page with proprietary tags. Not to say this was the best design decision in the world, but would you rather they didn't include the ability to save URLs for later reference because Netscape had already done it?
And by the way, OLE and ActiveX are subsets of COM. OLE deals with embedding and data exchange; ActiveX is an object hosting specification.
Let's see. I have this laptop, you know, running RH9. Whenever I fire up the GUI updater (RHN or whatever its called) and let it run, the entire desktop (GNOME) freezes. I mean, I can move the mouse around and click, but nothing happens. It's as if an evil topmost transparent window hath descended on top of my desktop. I have to reboot to get rid of it. There might be another way, but I'm not interested in fiddling for three hours with it.
Can I use that as a data point regarding "my reality"?
OTOH, I'm sitting in front of a Windows 2000 workstation box that has an average uptime of 60 days (baring the occasional patch I can't live without) and has never in four years "crashed" in any way shape or form. GPFs? Sure. Most caused by my own code. Dismiss them and keep working. Hilarious BSODs? Never seen one, sorry. And this is a machine that gets more crap thrown at it that I'd like to admit.
Why don't you use that data point to validate "your reality" as well?
Your response to the OP is a perfect example of why seeing the world in black and white is hazardous to your health.
Given the sheer number of open source advisories I get from RedHat and on Linuxsecurity.com I'd say open source developers take the same number of things for granted, except that with a different angle: "nah, this code won't be used".
I'm sure it makes you feel better to think that Microsoft developers are fundamentally stupid, but that doesn't make it so.
The difference is that nobody bothers exploiting most open source vulnerabilities. When someone does bother then the shit does hit the fan, as in Debian/GNU/Gentoo getting r00ted and paralized for weeks. And that's just the ones we heard about.
Oh, and it doesn't matter whether you run as root/Admin or not. You can still have a zombied box spewing spam 24/7 regardless of whether you use Linux, BSD or Windows.
If your wife does not understand that there are going to be times when you work 12-14 hours a day for weeks or months and that sometimes you'll have to work Saturdays and that sometimes you'll have to sit at the computer and work instead of playing with the kids or helping her around the house, then you're screwed.
I know couples who have been at the brink of divorce because the wife just wouldn't have one of my developers work on a Saturday or whatever. Some of it is selfishness, but you also have to understand what they're going through. And if they work... well, that's another bowl of fish.
She has to see that you do what you do so that she and the kid(s) can have a better life. Just don't disappear at nights because you went drinking with your buddies - and whatever else, MAKE SURE YOU MAKE IT UP TO HER AS SOON AS YOU CAN. After a particularly difficult project for example, take her on romantic dinners or a good vacation. Let her go out with her friends while you watch the kids instead of firing up the XBox. And so on.
Life is a balance, and you need to find yours (and hers).
You are not interested in "money flowing in the other direction" because it's good for the Open Source Jihad, you're interested because part of it eventually lands in your pocket.
Rob Malda has said time and again in posts and IRC chats that he has little respect for the people who use and contribute to his creation. I've never for a second believed that he (or you) are much for open source or free software as an ideology.
Slashbork these days is little more than an anti-Microsoft flame fest. OSDN is a for-profit corporation that funds and operates a website that is dedicated to attacking a competitor; day in and day out. They closed up the SourceForge code to nary a peep from "the community". It is a matter of record that they use outsorcing as a sales strategy. They are hardly poster boys for the open source movement. Can you imagine what would be your readership's reaction if Microsoft funded an anti-open source website? Oh, the humanity! Yet OSDN gets away with it here, and in NewsForge, where roblimo writes his little conspiracy theories every week to the delight of thousands of zealots everywhere.
When exactly are you going to run a few free adverts for open source projects so they can get a few eyes? Noooo, that would mean cutting into the revenue stream that Microsoft so graciously provides. You should have stuck with the Google Ad-sense banners, which Microsoft does not use and are much less disruptive.
These Microsoft ads (on an.org TLD, of all things), along with your ever-enlightening editorial quips appended to the "M$" flame-of-the-day are, unfortunately, part of this website's influence. You haven't finished understanding that, and I suppose you never will.
Go ahead and bitchslap my "karma", but the ironies are just too great. FUD always flows both ways.
.
* "You" means the people who run Bashdork, with the possible exception of Cliff.
My pleasure. It's a fine editor. I used it for quite a while and for one reason or another went back to vim and IDLE, but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to Python folks.
Now, you mention you had trouble with boa. You're going to want to get it working unless you want to spend some money, because for $0.00 that's as good as it's going to get. Otherwise the two above are good investments. IIRC Komodo has a free version, but I'm not sure. PythonWorks had great potential but it's not being developed any more. It only supported Tkinter anyway.
That's as far as GUI designer support. If you're not having any luck you might want to try wxWorkshop. I've heard some people have luck embedding their dialogs in C++ libraries and binding them to Python programs. YMMV.
If all you want is a good Python editor with debugger support there are a bunch of them out there:
Personally the best Python-specialized editor I've used is IDLE, though it has no GUI capabilities. IDLE ships with the full Python distribution for Linux and Windows, and it behaves essentially the same in both platforms.
Heh. I wonder if any fanboys will actually dare reply to this.
Windows could be *much* better than it is, but Linux is not exactly a stirring alternative. I've always found it clunky and unstable (if the application you want to use is throwing segfaults all over the place but doesn't crash the OS that really doesn't make me feel any better - "oh, well. I can't run KDevelop but at least I can sit here and admire the desktop! Linux rocks!")
The problem is that most people who praise Linux as a superior choice are mostly looking at things that the average user (and indeed, most people who use computers) could care less about.
I hope Linux gains more market share in the desktop. If nothing else it will pressure Microsoft to make Windows even better than it is today.
Why would blocking outbound 25 be a problem?? Cox did it a couple of months ago. Blanket block to all its residential customers, with no advance warning. Just like that.
It took me three days to figure out why I couldn't connect to my domain server (which is hosted by my ISP).
Much as I disliked the idea, if Cox did it then Comcast should, too. If anything that would take care of about 90% of all the zombies. The ones in the business customer base are probably counted in the few hundreds and can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
And I don't see why it sucks if you're running your own email server - inbound 25 should no be closed, and you can send through Comcast's relays anyway. Or at least that's how it works with Cox.
Now that the Linux development is totally transparent when will we be able to audit Microsoft, SCO, and other propriarity code for stolen bits and pieces?
Linux has existed for more than 10 years. Is it just now that the process is "totally transparent" to you? What about the whole BitKeeper issue (not that I think it is an issue, but many people do)? Have you decided that this month-old scheme will be absolutely successful?
And further, what exactly gives you the right to demand that Microsoft (or any other commercial software developer) try to prove a negative to you? Because your code can now be "audited"? The Windows source code is and has been available to a lot of people for many years. Given that it can be leaked wholesale, do you think for a second that no one would have found a way to get the word out that it contains "stolen" code from some open source project?
That Microsoft would ever open themselves up to trouble by using code that is not theirs without a proper license is just wishful teenage thinking. One of those memes like the "hidden APIs" in Windows which have been proven totally untrue time and again.
We should shout out of the top of our lungs that the propriarity way foster code stealing because no one can audit it.
By your own reasoning SCO has a case because I could not "audit" the Linux code before yesterday. And given the sheer number of GPL violations in the past few years I could definitely make a case that open source also "fosters" code stealing.
Try to think before you "shout out of the top of your lungs".
They should have apologized. You know, something like "we're sorry". There's none of that there. Instead, he goes off on some vague rant about "competition" and "professionalism" and ends with "don't do it, it's bad".
That means nothing. He's just trying to put out the fire he started without admitting that he or his crew did anything wrong.
"Sorry". A powerful word, but apparently not present in his vocabulary.
I think the question should be phrased (as per bash.org's #2635 quote):
<asr> 'fo sheezy.
<Sabboth> what the fuck does that mean in english? you should understand that having a day job precludes me from 'keeping it real' and as such, I lack a certain familiarity with the language of the 'streets' as it were.
Google needs to cater to the absolute lowest common denominator. There are a lot of people out there that still use NS4.x, IE4 and other old, weird-ass browsers that would choke on anything that smells remotely like "standards-compliant".
This might be an outrage to developers and "let me build the nigthly Mozilla tarball" type geeks, but that's the reality, and all high-volume popular web sites like Google have to deal with that.
Well, the first non-Windows platform we'll probably see.NET running in will be OS X (Mono notwhitstanding). After all, the SSCLI runs there "out of the box".
You are free to abstain from purchasing it. It's like the open source "feel free to ask for a refund". Just don't buy it, stop bitching and use something else. Hey, it's a market they're losing, right? So what's the problem? You should be happy that "M$" is about to pooch the Mac market (according to your calculations, at least).
How about you run OpenOffice on an emulator and call them "arrogant" because they won't port it to your OS of choice. Or, complain to Apple for not creating a usable Office suite, and call them "arrogant".
Slashdot Mirror
I don't get your point. Perhaps you'd also like to show us the percentage of those revenues that come from Linux, and maybe proof that these companies were not making money before they started doing whatever they're doing with Linux. Or even proof that the fact they are making money comes from the fact that they are using Linux. Not that I contest the fact that they are making money off Linux, no. But then you go off and say...
People are making money with free software, get over it.
In reality, one of the few companies to actually pull a profit is RedHat, and it took them a veritable eternity to break even. Not necessarily bad, but hardly a glowing testament to how you can make money off something that is given away to begin with. Mandrake had to resort to handouts. I don't know if SuSE ever made a profit before being bought out by Novell.
Oh and twitter, I hope you actually reply instead of just "slithering away" (your words) after someone calls you on your bullshit.
Here we go...
for instance showing the login screen for Windows 2000 and its successors BEFORE the system has finished loading and all daemons have started running.
This is true. True more so for XP than 2000. But that doesn't make it any faster because there's still a couple of seconds where you can't do jack shit even though the screen is already "drawn". Never fooled me, really. But then again, I've never seen Linux (any distro with any window manager or not) boot faster than Windows. I'm sure you can boot Linux in about 3 seconds if you spend 4 months tweaking it and that's been done as a cool geek experiment, but the average Linux user (if there's ever such a thing) probably won't go there anyway, and neither will the major user-oriented distros.
And also we have the thing with IE and lots of other MS software being loaded in the background wether you ask or not
OK, let's do a little experiment. Load up Windows. Download Geoshell and reboot. Now, load up Process explorer and try to find a single instance of a process mapping the IE render library (mshtml). No? OK, now load IE. How fast was that? Now load Mozilla or Firefox. This whole "oh teh M$ is teh cheat" is absolutely bogus. IE is simply fast, and Mozilla is simply slow. Period. That doesn't make one a better browser than the other, but I'm not going there.
and only hiding the icons instead of unloading them when the user tries to "close" them thereby sacrificing memory to gain percieved speed for the user.
What exactly do you mean? When I close a window I expect the process to go away and be unloaded. If anything the executable image will remain in memory and it will load without swapping next time, but are you saying that Windows "hides" windows instead of unloading their processes when I ask it to? That's nuts. Or are you referring to this? Heh. You really don't believe the argument that this problem is a Microsoft issue, right? Because the only application that has that problem happens to be Mozilla.
Someone, quick! Call the thousands of commercial software companies in the world - they must have missed the memo!
It is, but it doesn't matter. The editorial quip hath spoken and the lunatic zealots have made up their minds. Funny nobody reports on all the IBM patents that cover dumb things like these - thousands of them per year.
Your attempt at making it seem like an innovation is dissappointing even for Microsoft standards. Where's the jargoned up spiel about M$'s new paradigms and methods? That .NET reference and the mention of different languages, as if other compiler collections did not exist is a start.
Don't fly off the handle now. His comment was regarding something VS.NET does, which is nothing new by itself (even vi and Emacs will highlight 'NOTE' and 'TODO' entries in comments), except that the IDE will add the note as a task in a separate UI widget for later reference. Your blathering rant about .NET is offtopic otherwise.
Further, the AutoComplete thing is not necessarily new, but Microsoft did it right. As another poster mentioned, Quicken had something like it. I remember Lotus Organizer also had a crude version of the same (rough) functionality.
Microsoft however were the first to integrate this into the browser, not only in the address bar but in HTML forms as well. I'd like to see some proof (if you have it) that there was a browser implementation of this technology before IE4.
AutoComplete is also part of the Windows shell, and you can use it in your own applications, binding things like the internet history, favorites or the filesystem, or even create your own lists. Go on over to CodeProject.com and search for 'AutoComplete', and then come back and show me the KDE or whatever equivalent to that.
I like the way that KDE's IDE autogenerates html helpfiles and other documentation just like this. I'd like to see those morons at Microsoft try to extort money from anyone who would like to use or distribute KDE. Actually, I would not. I really want them to just take their ill gotten gains and leave the rest of us alone.
KDevelop, you mean? have you ever actually used it? It doesn't "auto generate" anything, and neither does Visual Studio, although they have that capability if you want to use it (admittedly VS.NET is superior in this area, though not on others). In any case, this was not KDE's invention by a long shot as there were IDEs that integrated with doxygen way before KDevelop existed. And who the hell is "extorting money" from people who use KDE? Your weird twisted "M$" hatred got you off course again?
I can't believe you keep being modded up for these types of obvious flamebait posts.
And by the way, OLE and ActiveX are subsets of COM. OLE deals with embedding and data exchange; ActiveX is an object hosting specification.
Can I use that as a data point regarding "my reality"?
OTOH, I'm sitting in front of a Windows 2000 workstation box that has an average uptime of 60 days (baring the occasional patch I can't live without) and has never in four years "crashed" in any way shape or form. GPFs? Sure. Most caused by my own code. Dismiss them and keep working. Hilarious BSODs? Never seen one, sorry. And this is a machine that gets more crap thrown at it that I'd like to admit.
Why don't you use that data point to validate "your reality" as well?
Your response to the OP is a perfect example of why seeing the world in black and white is hazardous to your health.
I'm sure it makes you feel better to think that Microsoft developers are fundamentally stupid, but that doesn't make it so.
The difference is that nobody bothers exploiting most open source vulnerabilities. When someone does bother then the shit does hit the fan, as in Debian/GNU/Gentoo getting r00ted and paralized for weeks. And that's just the ones we heard about.
Oh, and it doesn't matter whether you run as root/Admin or not. You can still have a zombied box spewing spam 24/7 regardless of whether you use Linux, BSD or Windows.
I know couples who have been at the brink of divorce because the wife just wouldn't have one of my developers work on a Saturday or whatever. Some of it is selfishness, but you also have to understand what they're going through. And if they work... well, that's another bowl of fish.
She has to see that you do what you do so that she and the kid(s) can have a better life. Just don't disappear at nights because you went drinking with your buddies - and whatever else, MAKE SURE YOU MAKE IT UP TO HER AS SOON AS YOU CAN. After a particularly difficult project for example, take her on romantic dinners or a good vacation. Let her go out with her friends while you watch the kids instead of firing up the XBox. And so on.
Life is a balance, and you need to find yours (and hers).
You are not interested in "money flowing in the other direction" because it's good for the Open Source Jihad, you're interested because part of it eventually lands in your pocket.
Rob Malda has said time and again in posts and IRC chats that he has little respect for the people who use and contribute to his creation. I've never for a second believed that he (or you) are much for open source or free software as an ideology.
Slashbork these days is little more than an anti-Microsoft flame fest. OSDN is a for-profit corporation that funds and operates a website that is dedicated to attacking a competitor; day in and day out. They closed up the SourceForge code to nary a peep from "the community". It is a matter of record that they use outsorcing as a sales strategy. They are hardly poster boys for the open source movement. Can you imagine what would be your readership's reaction if Microsoft funded an anti-open source website? Oh, the humanity! Yet OSDN gets away with it here, and in NewsForge, where roblimo writes his little conspiracy theories every week to the delight of thousands of zealots everywhere.
When exactly are you going to run a few free adverts for open source projects so they can get a few eyes? Noooo, that would mean cutting into the revenue stream that Microsoft so graciously provides. You should have stuck with the Google Ad-sense banners, which Microsoft does not use and are much less disruptive.
These Microsoft ads (on an .org TLD, of all things), along with your ever-enlightening editorial quips appended to the "M$" flame-of-the-day are, unfortunately, part of this website's influence. You haven't finished understanding that, and I suppose you never will.
Go ahead and bitchslap my "karma", but the ironies are just too great. FUD always flows both ways.
.
* "You" means the people who run Bashdork, with the possible exception of Cliff.
Cheers.
Wing IDE
Now, you mention you had trouble with boa. You're going to want to get it working unless you want to spend some money, because for $0.00 that's as good as it's going to get. Otherwise the two above are good investments. IIRC Komodo has a free version, but I'm not sure. PythonWorks had great potential but it's not being developed any more. It only supported Tkinter anyway.
That's as far as GUI designer support. If you're not having any luck you might want to try wxWorkshop. I've heard some people have luck embedding their dialogs in C++ libraries and binding them to Python programs. YMMV.
If all you want is a good Python editor with debugger support there are a bunch of them out there:
http://drpython.sourceforge.net
http://pype.sourceforge.net/ (more mature)
Personally the best Python-specialized editor I've used is IDLE, though it has no GUI capabilities. IDLE ships with the full Python distribution for Linux and Windows, and it behaves essentially the same in both platforms.
You might also want to check this article out. And of course, the clearing house.
You might want to shell out a few bucks for a quality language course.
Windows could be *much* better than it is, but Linux is not exactly a stirring alternative. I've always found it clunky and unstable (if the application you want to use is throwing segfaults all over the place but doesn't crash the OS that really doesn't make me feel any better - "oh, well. I can't run KDevelop but at least I can sit here and admire the desktop! Linux rocks!")
The problem is that most people who praise Linux as a superior choice are mostly looking at things that the average user (and indeed, most people who use computers) could care less about.
I hope Linux gains more market share in the desktop. If nothing else it will pressure Microsoft to make Windows even better than it is today.
It took me three days to figure out why I couldn't connect to my domain server (which is hosted by my ISP).
Much as I disliked the idea, if Cox did it then Comcast should, too. If anything that would take care of about 90% of all the zombies. The ones in the business customer base are probably counted in the few hundreds and can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
And I don't see why it sucks if you're running your own email server - inbound 25 should no be closed, and you can send through Comcast's relays anyway. Or at least that's how it works with Cox.
Linux has existed for more than 10 years. Is it just now that the process is "totally transparent" to you? What about the whole BitKeeper issue (not that I think it is an issue, but many people do)? Have you decided that this month-old scheme will be absolutely successful?
And further, what exactly gives you the right to demand that Microsoft (or any other commercial software developer) try to prove a negative to you? Because your code can now be "audited"? The Windows source code is and has been available to a lot of people for many years. Given that it can be leaked wholesale, do you think for a second that no one would have found a way to get the word out that it contains "stolen" code from some open source project?
That Microsoft would ever open themselves up to trouble by using code that is not theirs without a proper license is just wishful teenage thinking. One of those memes like the "hidden APIs" in Windows which have been proven totally untrue time and again.
We should shout out of the top of our lungs that the propriarity way foster code stealing because no one can audit it.
By your own reasoning SCO has a case because I could not "audit" the Linux code before yesterday. And given the sheer number of GPL violations in the past few years I could definitely make a case that open source also "fosters" code stealing.
Try to think before you "shout out of the top of your lungs".
Here you go.
Anything else?
That means nothing. He's just trying to put out the fire he started without admitting that he or his crew did anything wrong.
"Sorry". A powerful word, but apparently not present in his vocabulary.
Word.
This might be an outrage to developers and "let me build the nigthly Mozilla tarball" type geeks, but that's the reality, and all high-volume popular web sites like Google have to deal with that.
Things might get interesting shortly =)
How about you run OpenOffice on an emulator and call them "arrogant" because they won't port it to your OS of choice. Or, complain to Apple for not creating a usable Office suite, and call them "arrogant".
YHBT. Look at his nick and posting history.
I'll post something along these lines in the next Microsoft vulnerability article and we'll see if I get modded +5 with alacrity.