The second "free" is redundant and hence implied. I only explicitly mentioned it to explain the phrase to you...
(which really makes no sense
...apparently unsuccessfully so, sigh. It must suck to be this dumb.
because you could substitute beer with anything in that case, such as "free as in free cars")
Just how often do you get "free cars" in the real world, my severely challenged friend? Okay, okay. Presumably as often as you get free beer, but for the rest of the world, "free beer" is actually not the rarest thing in the world. It tends to correlate with a bit of a social life outside mom's basement, though.
he said "free as in beer".
So you are able to read. Next step: reading comprehension.
Note that he never said "free beer".
He didn't need to (hint: that's what the big-boy word "implied" means, in the paragraph above)
You should have paid attention in school. Illiteracy is a horrible thing.
See, my concern are those "other things", which would boil down to de-facto interweaving the formerly separate projects, adding dependencies from project A to project B, and project B to project A, which means, as you certainly know, that it's really more one project AB. I'll admit I'm not tracking changes to the systemd source repository, so maybe my concern has not become reality yet, but I think it's not very far fetched that this will happen, if it didn't already.
I mean what would you do, if you want to implement a fancy feature in your $pet_project, but unfortunately it requires $pet_project specific support in $dependent_project, and $dependent_project happens to be inside your own repository. Don't tell me that the reasoning would be "oh yeah, we better hold on and think of a implementation-agnostic approach to this particular issue rather than just committing this little patch". Not for most programmers, and especially not for special expert L.P.
Well we can all think what we want about the modern desktop but there is where the majority of the users will be, tyranny of the majority so to speak.
Yes. But is this what we actually want? I for one don't, and this isn't meant to sound elitist, but simply realist. Experience shows that if you let "the masses" in, things tend to become shitty and commerialized. Yes, I also thought, at some point, that it would be very cool if everybody used Linux. Unfortunately "using Linux" is pretty much pointless if you don't use the shell, and for that you need to be actually interested in the matter. Most people want to use their computer as an appliance, and this is what Linux (or real unix) has always sucked at.
If Linux is being made ready for the masses, and, looking at the current process of windowsification, it certainly is headed in that direction, it will become just that, another windows. yay. This is sadly why I don't try to "convert" people to BSD as I used to do when i was a fanboyish linux-advocating PFY. Demonstrate that you're actually interested in operating systems, that you don't mind sticking your nose in C source and that you don't wet yourself over lack of support for $latest_hype, and I'll happily show you the way (and walk it a bit) towards (what I consider) reasonable OS, is how I currently hold it.
Jesus do you need the damn joke broken down for you?
Please don't call me Jesus, it's really more an inside name for my apostles. If you are one of my apostles, you might have missed that we switched to a smarcard based authentication system recently (it's two-factor!). Thanks for considering.
do you need the damn joke broken down for you?
Apparently so. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm extraordinarily dumb, it might just mean your joke was extraordinarily bad.
You said they didn't have the resources. Now that Trump is elected they magically have the resources from donations.
No, now they're pretty non-magically starting to raise money for the mirror.
Why didn't they do it before?
Who knows, maybe nobody gave a shit? Maybe it was on their TODO list for ages? Maybe they were reasonably convinced that the previous government did not pose a danger to their project?
Because Trump wasn't elected yet and they couldn't scare people into irrationally thinking the president elect had magical internet erasing powers
I can think of a ton of other excuses they could have used to scare people into donating for an outside-US mirror, well before Trump.
Well one of the candidates did, ha-ha-ha that's a joke too, get it? Please don't make me explain this one too.
As a German, I lack any sense of humor, so please do. Well, provided this joke isn't as crappy as your previous attempt at humor. You might also want to note that the US doesn't cover the entire planet and adjust your assumptions accordingly wrt. how familiar I am with - or how few actual fucks I give about - the details of this election that go beyond "who did actually end up getting elected".
Democrats were using fear of Trump (Racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, inexperienced, etc, ad nauseum) to garner votes. It didn't work.
That's, like, very interesting.
Now that he's actually been elected (You mean the mother fucker won?!?!? (This is a reference to a bit by Eddie Murphy about elections (also a joke.)))
Since this is the first of your jokes that I immediately "get", and since it's pure shit and didn't even make me twitch, I'll take it as the baseline of your joke quality.
[blah blah trump]
Ok. Or maybe people don't trust in that everything going on in the US government is completely legit and happens 100% in compliance with the laws and the constitution (Film at fucking eleven). Nobody has a faint clue what your shiny new president is going to do, or to try. Everybody knows that if a govenment really wants something, it tends to find a way to make it happen. So in the light of this unpredictability, I'd say it's a justified, precautionary move.
Well to be honest, putting different projects into a single code repository [...] is not really my definition of "absorbing software" or an "integrated do-everythig approach".
Then what is?
and putting common code into shared libraries
You won't see me complaining about this.
All those [avahi] issues sounds like the zero conf functionality have been enabled on your system for some reason, since they are handled by a separate deamon (avahi-autoipd) it's probably started by something else like NetworkManager, avahi by itself should not bring this up afaik.
Oh, right! I totally forgot NetworkManager on my list:-).
modern desktops
Don't get me started on "modern desktops"..
(And yes, I too have heard about some former X11 developers being among the wayland crowd. Do you know what's their proportion wrt. to the total amount of X11 developers? (I don't).
rust: [sarcasm]
[missing the sarcasm]
The part about rust was sarcasm.
Well I would say that KDE is a far more complicated beast
Yes, that's why I'm mad at gnome in the first place. If KDE was lightweight and simple, I wouldn't have made them use gnome in the first place. On my own systems it's either headless or i3, that way I can avoid the pain that is the "modern desktop" with all its brokenness and dependencies and... damn it didn't I ask you to *not* get me started on that?!
That's because you're an idiot. Have you never been to a party or event where there was free beer? It's "free as in free beer", provided there actually *is* free beer, which does happen occasionally. It does in no way imply that beer would generally be free, that's frankly something I would expect only autistic people to not realize or understand.
Which is why we don't send nuclear materials into the sun.
That's an adorably naive thing to say. Are you picturing that once something is in orbit, you just let it fall towards the sun? Hint: if it's in earth orbit, it's already falling towards the Sun, and, for that matter, towards Earth as well. It just keeps missing because basic orbital physics. If you want to actually make it imact the sun, then you're in for a hell of delta-v, and that is for huge masses.
Except when you do, which might well be accidental. But i guess, you don't do accidental. Sure.
Ah, and I thought I was talking to someone who wasn't calling me out for the obvious flaws in what i'm saying
FTFY. Nice direct insult, btw. I at least had a good reason to say what i said, and given what comes next, I still mean it.
I no longer bother with any sort of manual backups.
Yeah, me neither. Your point being? Why do you add a "manual" there? Oh wait, rhetorical question. Your argument is a failure and I suspect you realize it yourself, otherwise you wouldn't have to resort to straw men. Worrying that you still do.
My phone can connect to an external display, keyboard and mouse. I can do anything from my modern handheld PC that you could do on an archaic desktop PC.
Just how hand-held is it after you hooked it up to that. And no, off the top of my head, here are three things you cannot do from your modern stationary phone that I can do on my archaic desktop: 1. dissipate power 2. connect an ethernet cable 3. replace hardware
Meanwhile, Gmail handles attachments, threaded conversations, and search much better than Mutt. All key features.
Search, maybe, google is good at that. You're paying for it with your privacy, but ok.
Attachments and threading? You mean the kind of "threads" that are effectively flat lists in gmail? Are you sure you know mutt well enough to make such claims?
supposing I reply, how do you see it? On your phone, I suppose... but then since you sent the message from your command-line SMS client, the conversation log on the phone is one-sided, which is unfortunate if you want to look at it later.
That's actually not a problem for me because i regularly pull the data on my phone to my computer, making the log two-sided again. (alternatively i could just use my phone as the sms gateway when there's no free to use on on the interweb around at a time). That said, I don't see how this (non-)problem wouldn't equally apply to your workflow.
And then there's the big advantage of my conversation logs being on my hard disks, while yours are being data-mined at google's...
with 40 Xeon cores [...] a browser? That's no load.
Okay, I certainly see how having 40 xeon cores helps with browser performance... I somewhat doubt it's very representative for browser users, though.
56% of the items on your list are part of the systemd project repository.
Funny, huh? I used to dislike the items even when systemd was the only item on that list that's part of the systemd repository. Not my fault systemd keeps absorbing software like that. That'd be ONE of the reasons I dislike systemd, since you were asking. If I want the integrated do-everything approach, I might just as well switch to Windows. So there goes your guilt by association hypothesis. Now, since you asked so nicely:
pulseaudio: significant CPU usage, overly complex, written by the systemd guy (that's guilt by precedent (postcedent?), not by association)
avahi: thinks it owns the network stack. creates a pseudo interface even when it's not needed, assigns a link-local address and potentially brings it up. have seen it confuse the boot process on debian in nasty ways. Also written by our special friend, par for the course.
dbus: grown, not designed. used to connect desktop crap together, now abused as a general purpose IPC. doing IPC in userland is a shitty idea, mainly because of the possibility that the ipc userland daemon might not be running. even the systemd special experts have realized this and thus are pushing for kdbus.
iproute2: reason for existance: Linux's ifconfig is ill-designed and grew over the years to be pretty 802.3 specific. Instead of designing ifconfig and the driver interface cleanly, additional programs were thrown into the mix. iwconfig, iw, you name it. Meet iproute2 and command lines like "ip link set up dev tap0". In case you're missing the irony here, they redesigned it, but apparently intentionally chose the one actually annoying artifact from ifconfig - the nonstandard (non-getopt) invocation syntax. So cool. then there's the exit code issue that i've talked about in our other conversation.
udev: actually i don't know udev very much, it's just unnecessary stuff i tend to dispose of on linux systems. i get that it's useful for people who don't know how to load a driver into the kernel. or what drivers they need, for that matter.
wayland: i'm mostly meh about it. seems to me like its main selling point is that it's something new, and X11 is old. so far i see no reason why i could possibly want it. maybe when i feel like using something less flexible for a change.
rust: is actually a nice language and prevents programmer error and world will be safe. C's days are counted. provides universal basic income too.
gnome: huge, complicated beast. also i hate it for making me migrate my parents from gnome 2 to KDE.
How is it a straw man? Did you badly misspell "rhetorical question" there? I'm only pointing out a flaw in your reasoning. And since you're talking about trust, how much do you trust your GSM carrier to "negotiate" (quotes because it's unilateral) encryption with your phone?
Gmail is as good as any crappy native MUA mainly because crappy MUAs are bloated and webbrowserized themselves. What if I don't want to run a crappy one, web-based or not?
E.g. Gmail comes nowhere near mutt (not even close) with respect to responsiveness, flexibility, speed, usability, power(fulness?), resource usage,.... On top of that, it has the subtle advantage that it can actually be used for mailhosters other than Gmail.
Slashdot Mirror
Yeah. That, and the fact that they were going to be thrown away.
I'd venture a guess that Amazon has actually figured out how to reliably store data.
Except he didn't say "free as in free beer"
The second "free" is redundant and hence implied. I only explicitly mentioned it to explain the phrase to you...
(which really makes no sense
...apparently unsuccessfully so, sigh. It must suck to be this dumb.
because you could substitute beer with anything in that case, such as "free as in free cars")
Just how often do you get "free cars" in the real world, my severely challenged friend? Okay, okay. Presumably as often as you get free beer, but for the rest of the world, "free beer" is actually not the rarest thing in the world. It tends to correlate with a bit of a social life outside mom's basement, though.
he said "free as in beer".
So you are able to read. Next step: reading comprehension.
Note that he never said "free beer".
He didn't need to (hint: that's what the big-boy word "implied" means, in the paragraph above)
You should have paid attention in school. Illiteracy is a horrible thing.
Pot, meet Kettle.
among other things
See, my concern are those "other things", which would boil down to de-facto interweaving the formerly separate projects, adding dependencies from project A to project B, and project B to project A, which means, as you certainly know, that it's really more one project AB. I'll admit I'm not tracking changes to the systemd source repository, so maybe my concern has not become reality yet, but I think it's not very far fetched that this will happen, if it didn't already.
I mean what would you do, if you want to implement a fancy feature in your $pet_project, but unfortunately it requires $pet_project specific support in $dependent_project, and $dependent_project happens to be inside your own repository. Don't tell me that the reasoning would be "oh yeah, we better hold on and think of a implementation-agnostic approach to this particular issue rather than just committing this little patch". Not for most programmers, and especially not for special expert L.P.
Well we can all think what we want about the modern desktop but there is where the majority of the users will be, tyranny of the majority so to speak.
Yes. But is this what we actually want? I for one don't, and this isn't meant to sound elitist, but simply realist. Experience shows that if you let "the masses" in, things tend to become shitty and commerialized. Yes, I also thought, at some point, that it would be very cool if everybody used Linux. Unfortunately "using Linux" is pretty much pointless if you don't use the shell, and for that you need to be actually interested in the matter. Most people want to use their computer as an appliance, and this is what Linux (or real unix) has always sucked at.
If Linux is being made ready for the masses, and, looking at the current process of windowsification, it certainly is headed in that direction, it will become just that, another windows. yay. This is sadly why I don't try to "convert" people to BSD as I used to do when i was a fanboyish linux-advocating PFY. Demonstrate that you're actually interested in operating systems, that you don't mind sticking your nose in C source and that you don't wet yourself over lack of support for $latest_hype, and I'll happily show you the way (and walk it a bit) towards (what I consider) reasonable OS, is how I currently hold it.
Jesus do you need the damn joke broken down for you?
Please don't call me Jesus, it's really more an inside name for my apostles. If you are one of my apostles, you might have missed that we switched to a smarcard based authentication system recently (it's two-factor!). Thanks for considering.
do you need the damn joke broken down for you?
Apparently so. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm extraordinarily dumb, it might just mean your joke was extraordinarily bad.
You said they didn't have the resources. Now that Trump is elected they magically have the resources from donations.
No, now they're pretty non-magically starting to raise money for the mirror.
Why didn't they do it before?
Who knows, maybe nobody gave a shit? Maybe it was on their TODO list for ages? Maybe they were reasonably convinced that the previous government did not pose a danger to their project?
Because Trump wasn't elected yet and they couldn't scare people into irrationally thinking the president elect had magical internet erasing powers
I can think of a ton of other excuses they could have used to scare people into donating for an outside-US mirror, well before Trump.
Well one of the candidates did, ha-ha-ha that's a joke too, get it? Please don't make me explain this one too.
As a German, I lack any sense of humor, so please do. Well, provided this joke isn't as crappy as your previous attempt at humor. You might also want to note that the US doesn't cover the entire planet and adjust your assumptions accordingly wrt. how familiar I am with - or how few actual fucks I give about - the details of this election that go beyond "who did actually end up getting elected".
Democrats were using fear of Trump (Racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, inexperienced, etc, ad nauseum) to garner votes. It didn't work.
That's, like, very interesting.
Now that he's actually been elected (You mean the mother fucker won?!?!? (This is a reference to a bit by Eddie Murphy about elections (also a joke.)))
Since this is the first of your jokes that I immediately "get", and since it's pure shit and didn't even make me twitch, I'll take it as the baseline of your joke quality.
[blah blah trump]
Ok. Or maybe people don't trust in that everything going on in the US government is completely legit and happens 100% in compliance with the laws and the constitution (Film at fucking eleven). Nobody has a faint clue what your shiny new president is going to do, or to try. Everybody knows that if a govenment really wants something, it tends to find a way to make it happen. So in the light of this unpredictability, I'd say it's a justified, precautionary move.
Ta da! Now laugh.
Ok.
Burma Shave.
you should consider posting it a 3rd time, just in case.
The fuck?
began collecting donations
why [wasn't this] done before if they have the resources.
Does that sound like they "have the resources"?
Well to be honest, putting different projects into a single code repository [...] is not really my definition of "absorbing software" or an "integrated do-everythig approach".
Then what is?
and putting common code into shared libraries
You won't see me complaining about this.
All those [avahi] issues sounds like the zero conf functionality have been enabled on your system for some reason, since they are handled by a separate deamon (avahi-autoipd) it's probably started by something else like NetworkManager, avahi by itself should not bring this up afaik.
Oh, right! I totally forgot NetworkManager on my list :-).
modern desktops
Don't get me started on "modern desktops"..
(And yes, I too have heard about some former X11 developers being among the wayland crowd. Do you know what's their proportion wrt. to the total amount of X11 developers? (I don't).
rust: [sarcasm]
[missing the sarcasm]
The part about rust was sarcasm.
Well I would say that KDE is a far more complicated beast
Yes, that's why I'm mad at gnome in the first place. If KDE was lightweight and simple, I wouldn't have made them use gnome in the first place. ... damn it didn't I ask you to *not* get me started on that?!
On my own systems it's either headless or i3, that way I can avoid the pain that is the "modern desktop" with all its brokenness and dependencies and
happy now?
Yes, thank you!
You're welcome.
The point being (which I am sure you're missing on purpose) is that "Windows" (or Mac) is not just the ONLY "desktop" out there.
How does this have anything to do with what was being discussed? How was that ever 'the point' here?
I wasn't planning on moving to U.S. anywhere, but thanks for the heads-up :)
That's because you're an idiot. Have you never been to a party or event where there was free beer?
It's "free as in free beer", provided there actually *is* free beer, which does happen occasionally. It does in no way imply that beer would generally be free, that's frankly something I would expect only autistic people to not realize or understand.
Visual Studio for Linux wouldn't^H^H^H be a bad idea.
Exchange for Linux would kill Windows^W^Wcause laughter and facepalm.
FTFY
what's a terrist?
Which is why we don't send nuclear materials into the sun.
That's an adorably naive thing to say. Are you picturing that once something is in orbit, you just let it fall towards the sun? Hint: if it's in earth orbit, it's already falling towards the Sun, and, for that matter, towards Earth as well. It just keeps missing because basic orbital physics.
If you want to actually make it imact the sun, then you're in for a hell of delta-v, and that is for huge masses.
I don't delete.
Except when you do, which might well be accidental. But i guess, you don't do accidental. Sure.
Ah, and I thought I was talking to someone who wasn't calling me out for the obvious flaws in what i'm saying
FTFY. Nice direct insult, btw. I at least had a good reason to say what i said, and given what comes next, I still mean it.
I no longer bother with any sort of manual backups.
Yeah, me neither. Your point being? Why do you add a "manual" there? Oh wait, rhetorical question. Your argument is a failure and I suspect you realize it yourself, otherwise you wouldn't have to resort to straw men. Worrying that you still do.
My phone can connect to an external display, keyboard and mouse. I can do anything from my modern handheld PC that you could do on an archaic desktop PC.
Just how hand-held is it after you hooked it up to that. And no, off the top of my head, here are three things you cannot do from your modern stationary phone that I can do on my archaic desktop:
1. dissipate power
2. connect an ethernet cable
3. replace hardware
Hangouts syncs all of the messages to all devices.
How convenient. What about deletions, are they also synced to all devices?
And the disadvantage that a drive failure loses your history
Ah, here's the problem. I had the false impression that I was talking to someone vaguely computer-literate. My bad, I'll adjust my expectations.
. As for data mining... meh. If it means the ads I see are more useful to me, that's a benefit, not a disadvantage.
Meh indeed.
Meanwhile, Gmail handles attachments, threaded conversations, and search much better than Mutt. All key features.
Search, maybe, google is good at that. You're paying for it with your privacy, but ok.
Attachments and threading? You mean the kind of "threads" that are effectively flat lists in gmail?
Are you sure you know mutt well enough to make such claims?
supposing I reply, how do you see it? On your phone, I suppose... but then since you sent the message from your command-line SMS client, the conversation log on the phone is one-sided, which is unfortunate if you want to look at it later.
That's actually not a problem for me because i regularly pull the data on my phone to my computer, making the log two-sided again. (alternatively i could just use my phone as the sms gateway when there's no free to use on on the interweb around at a time). That said, I don't see how this (non-)problem wouldn't equally apply to your workflow.
And then there's the big advantage of my conversation logs being on my hard disks, while yours are being data-mined at google's...
with 40 Xeon cores [...] a browser? That's no load.
Okay, I certainly see how having 40 xeon cores helps with browser performance... I somewhat doubt it's very representative for browser users, though.
56% of the items on your list are part of the systemd project repository.
Funny, huh? I used to dislike the items even when systemd was the only item on that list that's part of the systemd repository. Not my fault systemd keeps absorbing software like that. That'd be ONE of the reasons I dislike systemd, since you were asking. If I want the integrated do-everything approach, I might just as well switch to Windows.
So there goes your guilt by association hypothesis. Now, since you asked so nicely:
pulseaudio: significant CPU usage, overly complex, written by the systemd guy (that's guilt by precedent (postcedent?), not by association)
avahi: thinks it owns the network stack. creates a pseudo interface even when it's not needed, assigns a link-local address and potentially brings it up. have seen it confuse the boot process on debian in nasty ways. Also written by our special friend, par for the course.
dbus: grown, not designed. used to connect desktop crap together, now abused as a general purpose IPC. doing IPC in userland is a shitty idea, mainly because of the possibility that the ipc userland daemon might not be running. even the systemd special experts have realized this and thus are pushing for kdbus.
iproute2: reason for existance: Linux's ifconfig is ill-designed and grew over the years to be pretty 802.3 specific. Instead of designing ifconfig and the driver interface cleanly, additional programs were thrown into the mix. iwconfig, iw, you name it. Meet iproute2 and command lines like "ip link set up dev tap0". In case you're missing the irony here, they redesigned it, but apparently intentionally chose the one actually annoying artifact from ifconfig - the nonstandard (non-getopt) invocation syntax. So cool. then there's the exit code issue that i've talked about in our other conversation.
udev: actually i don't know udev very much, it's just unnecessary stuff i tend to dispose of on linux systems. i get that it's useful for people who don't know how to load a driver into the kernel. or what drivers they need, for that matter.
wayland: i'm mostly meh about it. seems to me like its main selling point is that it's something new, and X11 is old. so far i see no reason why i could possibly want it. maybe when i feel like using something less flexible for a change.
rust: is actually a nice language and prevents programmer error and world will be safe. C's days are counted. provides universal basic income too.
gnome: huge, complicated beast. also i hate it for making me migrate my parents from gnome 2 to KDE.
happy now?
How is it a straw man? Did you badly misspell "rhetorical question" there? I'm only pointing out a flaw in your reasoning. And since you're talking about trust, how much do you trust your GSM carrier to "negotiate" (quotes because it's unilateral) encryption with your phone?
Gmail is as good as any native mail program
Gmail is as good as any crappy native MUA mainly because crappy MUAs are bloated and webbrowserized themselves.
What if I don't want to run a crappy one, web-based or not?
E.g. Gmail comes nowhere near mutt (not even close) with respect to responsiveness, flexibility, speed, usability, power(fulness?), resource usage, ....
On top of that, it has the subtle advantage that it can actually be used for mailhosters other than Gmail.
no basement.
Deal breaker.