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Microsoft Exec Urges Linux Developers To Try Windows 10 (softpedia.com)
An anonymous reader shares a Softpedia article: Microsoft has finally acknowledged the potential that the open-source world in general, and Linux in particular, boasts, so the company is exploring its options to expand in this area with every occasion. Most recently, an episode posted on Channel 9 and entitled "Improvements to Bash on Windows and the Windows Console" with senior program manager Rich Turner calls for Linux developers to give up on their platforms for Windows 10. "Fire up a Windows 10 Insiders' build instance and run your code, run your tools, host your website on Apache, access your MySQL database from your Java code," he explained. Turner went on to point out that the Windows subsystem for Linux is there to provide developers with all the necessary tools to code just like they'd do it on Linux, all without losing the advantages of Windows 10. "Whatever it is that you normally do on Linux to build an application: whether it's in Go, in Erlang, in C, whatever you use, please, give it a try on Bash WSL, and importantly file bugs on us. It really makes our life a lot easier and helps us build a product that we can all use and be far more productive with, he continued. Editor's note: The original title from Softpedia was edited because it was misleading. A Microsoft employee doesn't represent the entire company (at least in this instant he wasn't speaking for the company), and at no point has he asked "all Linux developers" to "give up" on Linux.
Yeah, sure...
Why the fuck would any Linux developer want to do this? It's not as if Windows 10 offers any significant, or even real, architectural advantage, and it's not like Linux doesn't have plenty of its own development tools. So far as I can tell, Windows 10 has absolutely no developer advantages at all, and in fact, simply represents a pointless extra layer for any developer working on Linux.
You know, I almost preferred the Gates-Ballmer Microsoft, because it was brilliantly maniacal. The new Microsoft is just a whining pathetic pack of halfwits who can't really even decide what direction their company should go. Sure, they may be more open source friendly, but so the fuck what?
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
no way jose...
Because seriously, there is positively no way I will ever put Windows on any computer that I ever own unless I am being paid what I think my time is worth for the inconvenience.
So since it's clearly not worth your time to pay me to use it, it's not worth mine to install it.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Why on earth would we do that? Windows is closed-source proprietary software.
GPL a good hunk of the codebase and we'll talk. Until then, we've got our own problems to solve.
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
drink bleach.
That said, you can download VM's of all Microsoft OSes from Microsoft.com for free. They're for compatibility testing and time limited, but otherwise fully functioning,
It's never been the ability to run Linux programs on Windows that's kept me from moving to Windows 10, I can build just about any program designed for Linux to make use of Windows...perhaps with a bit of code fiddling depending on how ingrained Linux support was made. What keeps me from swapping to Windows 10 is the fucking back doors that MS wants to run by default....and the fact that Windows 7 still runs quite well inside the sandbox.
He's not telling anyone to give up on Linux at all. He's saying, "Hey developers that use Linux. Try doing the *the same thing* you do on Linux within the new Bash on Ubuntu on Windows project. Let us know if something sucks so we can fix it and make it better." He doesn't want people to stop using Linux. He wants to make using Ubuntu *in* Windows better.
For the moment, Microsoft will use persuasion to try to kill Linux, and become the only commercial OS on the planet, other than Apple's. They're already making moves to have people in position to influence Linux development. The next steps will likely be to sabotage Linux and cripple it in some way, while Windows becomes capable of running all Linux software, making stand-alone Linux obsolete.
What exactly is there to offer? I can't imagine anyone wanting to throw an extra layer on top of their work just to help Microsoft find bugs.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
During development of any project, configuration and the ability to own the software environment often comes into play. It really comes down to, I'd rather not have them in my system changing things without my permission.
Microsoft like to dump things that they're not interested in anymore.
This is just another thing. It'll be "get on windows 10, it has linux" then a year or two later, it'll be "we've EOL'ed this product - use Visual studio instead, you're already half way there"
Normal strategy for microsoft. You'd be a fool to follow it.
But they did say please:
please, give it a try on Bash WSL
If you're going to solicit charity, IMO you should be a charity, not a for-profit company.
Someone had to do it.
Fire up a Windows 10 Insiders' build instance and run your code, run your tools, host your website on Apache, access your MySQL database from your Java code
or i run these tools on Linux, which has a 20+ year track record of running this software, and not some OS that conveniently added support once they realized the future of cloud computing was entirely based around avoiding their historic and well documented efforts to intentionally fuck up everything they touch.
Good people go to bed earlier.
April fools day or something? As an exclusive GNU/Linux user since about 2001 all I can say is: what?
Why would I do something like that? Because of bash? Does this think that bash is *the* reason not to use Windows and to be on a Linux distro? For real? I wonder if I am the target audience for this, I use Ubuntu and/or Mint for development and OpenBSD, Debian and Fedora for deployment, most of the code is Java, I use PostgreSQL and a bunch of other tools. So I didn't switch to an iOS product, have been on a Unix like system for the last 15 years or so. This guy believes that for some reason I would go to Windows? What a strange idea. Why would he target a Linux user, there are so few of us out there, why not go after a Mac user?
You can't handle the truth.
I'm using a W10 work laptop. Just this morning I pulled up the Calc app for some minor numerical twiddling. Just as I was dismissing it*, it had some pop over asking me how I was enjoying the app (or something to that effect). And I used to regularly get notifications asking me how I felt about W10 and would I recommend it to my friends. And lets not forget that W10 updates keeping bring back shit that you don't want or need**
I know that at some point will have to get a W10 system for my home dev work, but MS is doing everything it its power to turn me off W10 (and I am not even getting to the telemetry stuff***)
* I wish I had been able to stop myself from closing it. It would have made a great screen cap for TDWTF.
** It's not just MS that is doing this. I recently discovered my Mac Book Pro had downloaded a 4.7GB installer for Sierra, when I have explicitly said no every time El Capitan prompted me to upgrade. I have no idea when that download happened.
*** I only feel like I tamed my MacBook Pro when I added a 3rd party firewall that allows my to whitelist network egress.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
So far as I can tell, Windows 10 has absolutely no developer advantages at all
In the mobile and server fields, I'd agree. But in the desktop field, the advantage of Windows is in the economies of scale of having far more users than X11/Linux has.
Remove the forced updates and spyware first.
As someone who uses Windows almost exclusively, I want to add that I plan to never use Windows 10. I'll be moving to Linux or BSD or some such, so at least as far as selling/offering anything to me is concerned, developing for Windows 10 is worthless.
This reads a lot like telling someone who already owns a house and is completely free of their mortgage that they should just throw all caution to the wind, give their house away to some random stranger, and spend the next 25 years paying for a new home with less than half of the square footage and no basement.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Unfortunately it is the airheads at Canonical that helped them with this. It was obvious that this would help Windows only and Ubuntu showed themselves to be so clueless and easily taken advantage of to go along with it. It is an advantage on the MS side since it gives people a reason to use Windows rather than Linux and thus hurt the Linux kernel. Of course many people know that Windows will take away the ability to control and audit the OS and would bring people under the enslavement of the Windows OS, a black box that microsoft can use to exploit and control its users.If Ubuntu really was competent they would have made it possible to run Windows hardware drivers and Windows Apps on Linux, which is really what would help people get off of Windows. And I dont mean the glitch prone, pathetic, 50% application compatability that Wine has, which is just not good enough, for average users would need to be 99%.
yeah, don't think so.
I'd be more than willing to 'give it a go' with Windows 10, as they suggest. Give me my download and 30-60 day trial that isn't hamstrung beyond the timer.
Why yes. Why time is worth that much, and no I won't give them money on a license, just to 'see' if I think it's worth a greater time investment.
What? I have to create a 'Microsoft' account online, to get said 'Windows 10 Insider' download, which I guess will then be required to tag to a secondary email account which will go into their 'data-mining' operations and mass ad. network?
No thanks. I'll stick with my $dist_of_choice.
Why would I EVER want to run Java from Apache?
This guy is just throwing around some random buzzwords he remembers from the previous decade.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
"Turner went on to point out that the Windows subsystem for Linux is there to provide developers with all the necessary tools to code just like they'd do it on Linux, all without losing the advantages of Windows 10"
lol, wut?
There has never been a time developing on Linux where I thought, "gee, I wish I were on Windows right now." When I'm on Windows, I hate it. Everything is so tedious on Windows, and everything from the registry to using escape characters for path delimiters just makes no sense.
It's properly called GNU/Windows 10
I develop daily on OSX, Linux, and Windows. Guess what, ALL operating systems SUCK. The strengths of one tend to be the weakness of others.
Windows 7 works perfectly fine for my needs. I neither want nor need your spyware laden Windows 10.
Please go monkey dance "developers!" to your visualbasic developers instead!
Even if we can run linux tools on windows kernel, the system is still to heavy, outside our control... and have a still shitty company behind, just look to all the user tracking MS added to it and "edge is safer than firefox and chrome" bullshit... not, MS is still a shitty company
on the good side... MS is clearly jumping to the "then you win" step from the First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Higuita
If your platform is good, then you don't have to beg people to use it.
From what I see what MS wants is developer Mindshare and visual studio. As developers move to cloud, mobile, and html 5 it risks becoming irrelevant.
Visual Studio 2017 has Android, Linux, mono, typescript, Python, and other tool support. So MS is porting it for these reasons as setting a Hyper-V VM running Linux can be a pain.
So this is good as competition keeps bad companies good
http://saveie6.com/
"from your Java code". Yup... That's a major concern among Linux users, their Java code.
been there done that.
As John McEnrow said, 'You can't be serious'.
Why would any Linux dev want to use an OS that is patent encumbered, not free, controlled by a Patent Troll and one where you the user is not in control but MS is.
Can I have some of what you are smoking please. It must be good stuff.
no basement.
Deal breaker.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
host your website on NOT IIS , access your NOT SQL Server database
Wow, somebody's trying to get NOT EMPLOYED today.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Get back to me when there's efforts to make the Linux subsystem a first class citizen: when I can effectively run the NT kernel and a Linux distro and basically not have the Win32/Win64 subsystem running. Then we can have an actual discussion about the Linux subsystem on Windows. Because otherwise, it's rather clear the whole point is to motivate developers to run their non-GUI server apps on Windows and push people to migrate to a Windows-only solution as the Linux subsystem will never work well enough with Win32/Win64 to be acceptable--it's just the inherent nature of inconsistency between the expectations of each subsystem.
Otherwise, no, I'm not going to help you with debugging your broken subsystem to make it "good enough". That does me no good because at best it's going to be inferior to just running a Linux system.
Advantages for whom? Microsoft and its extreme data harvesting?
The irony here is that my experience with Windows 10 is what finally drove me to switch to Linux full time on my personal laptop.
Not only are they not paying you, but they want you to pay them, since you would have to buy a copy of windows, or do they just assume everyone has windows on all of their machines?
All the "OMG Why would anyone use this" comments are silly and this feature isn't intended for you. What this would be awesome for is those of us who develop for linux servers (Web Apps) on their Macs. One of the great things about MacOS is that I can use all the same tools locally. Sure, I could use Linux on the desktop, but then I can't use photoshop, microsoft office, deal with driver compatibility issues, live with the awful window managers, etc etc.
Already was having second thoughts about the new MacBook Pros. With features like this in Windows, there may not be much reason left to stick with Mac.
...so they can use their "telemetry" to sell you to advertisers.
Great argument, there, Microsoft. Since changing all the end-user agreements so they're all biased toward M$'s income, and their operational assumption that YOU bought your computer, but M$ owns it, lock, stock and barrel...sure, let's all start using the unnecessary and irrelevant "Windows 10" layer to build Linux apps on.
Bellevue seems to be surrounded by mirrors, reflecting every image back to it's occupants.
I use Linux because I care a lot about my freedom and privacy. Why would I subject myself to such an OS/product in stark contrast with what I care about, and as a developer, create things to encourage others to do so too? Come back when you care more about freedom and privacy than about maximum profits.... see you never.
You're missing the point. It's a matter of which factors are most important. There are many times when it's more convenient to use a non-free tool, but it is still reasonable for someone to decide that the loss of freedom outweighs the gained convenience.
the problem is s lot of linux user do so because of ideology.
"Fire up a Windows 10 Insiders' build instance and run your code, run your tools, host your website on Apache, access your MySQL database from your Java code," he explained... "so our telemetry system can steal your code, your tools and your personal information."
FTFY
So, according to the summary this is fake news!
Over my dead Zune!
Table-ized A.I.
Why the fuck would any Linux developer want to do this?
Mainly because some of us have jobs where we need to use commercial applications Illustrator, MS Office etc. for teaching and admin and yet still want to be able to code for research. It used to be that many of us in this situation used Macs because they combined an underlying UNIX OS with the ability to run commercial software. Sadly Apple is going off the rails now and while I used to despise Windows XP and earlier (the last ones I ever really encountered), Windows 10 is a very different beast.
I've only been playing with it for a couple of weeks and that's on a desktop not a laptop but so far I have been impressed and intend to migrate over to a Dell XPS or Surface Book in the next month or so rather than to the obscenely priced and hardware challenged new MacBook Pros. You get roughly the same mix of UNIX development shell and environment with the ability to run commercial software. It's not as polished as OS X but Apple do not sell any modern desktop machine with a GPU and without a built in monitor and this way I always have the option to dump Windows and revert entirely to Linux and then run Windows as a VM with PCI passthrough for the GPU if the Linux subsystem does not work out.
> all without losing the advantages of Windows 10.
What are those?
Film at 11.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Linux Developers know, why they use linux. They know windows. Of course, who doesn't. Most know OSX. And they are linux developers. And they know, how to do stuff efficiently on linux and what a PITA it is to use windows for the same things.
Why does MS even think, they can convice them (expect with a lot of money, of course)? I guess the people who try an image campaign, never learned linux themselfes.
If you want me to come over and be your QA then you'd better start paying me the M$$$$$$$.
A port of my developer tools to be compatible with the Windows ABI. They could help the clang effort [1], but what I would like is for some support in GCC. I'm pretty sure that none of the GNU people are going to support that endeavor, but I'd like it, so that my mingw/tdm-gcc compiled binaries don't feel so sucky compared to native ones that use windows runtime libs.
[1] http://clang.llvm.org/docs/MSVCCompatibility.html
I actually did install this, and I have to say it's pretty good. MS did a decent job with this.
How does bash end up on Windows? It's licensed under GPL (https://www.gnu.org/software/bash/). Why is it fine for Microsoft to include this in a commercial product that is otherwise closed source and governed by a proprietary license?
I'm in the game because of Free Software (yes, *free*, not "open source", pronounced in a lowered voice and with pouted lips). You are in the game to control your users.
Our views of the world are incompatible. Keep your stuff for yourselves.
I've watched your predatory behaviour for way too long to trust you so > much.
My father is a professor for theoretical physics. He has a paper just before publication but had to correct the drafts. The instructions called for PDF annotations, so I installed Okular for him. But the described workflow was rather specific to Acrobat Reader, so he rebooted Windows (which he had not done for a long time). It called for updates.
Now the _only_ Linux partition left is the swap partition. All others are either "Microsoft Windows data" or "Windows recovery". It hasn't bothered repartitioning the Windows partition in order to store the recovery data. It preferred deleting and redesignating the Linux partitions for that.
Given that they have in-house testing and decision-making, and that this was an official automated update at least on the level of "recommended" and given that partitioning a disk with partitions marked for non-Windows use has been around dozens of years, this does no longer count as gross negligence. This is criminal, pure and simple. And not even the Microsoft EULA reserves the right to destroy anything _outside_ of the Windows installation.
Windows 10 anniversary edition. This is your wife killing your mistress and putting her corpse on your bed as an anniversary present.
Enjoy.
"Microsoft Exec Urges Linux Developers To Try Windows 10"
And just how he urges them. And not just the Linux developers, also the Linux users.
This will be my Christmas vacation, and I don't even use Windows. Fuck you, Nadella, fuck, fuck, fuck. You are going to die with desktop computing, and you deserve it.
Turner went on to point out that the Windows subsystem for Linux is there to provide developers with all the necessary tools to code just like they'd do it on Linux, all without losing the advantages of Windows 10.
I assume he means good compatibility with modern games and a greatly lightened wallet?
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Microsoft Exec Urges Windows 10 Linux Compatibility Layer Developers To Try Native Windows 10 Code
I mean, after all, you've switched to Windows. Why go through all the extra trouble of writing code that would run on Linux? We've got some wonderful vendor lock-in for you.
Yes, I'm completely unhappy with the free operating system I already have that does what I want. What I really need is a middle layer that charges me money, tells me what to do and ignores my choices in favour of what it thinks is best.
I think your friend was trying to be polite.
Beg is the proper term. Microsoft is on their knees begging Linux developers.
First they ignore you,
then they laugh at you,
then they fight you,
then you win.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
Just saying it like it are.
Gag me with a spoon!
Dear mr. Nandella - i kicked your company out of my house after windows Vista - i see what you do to windows10 - how you disrespect the privacy of your loyal buyers.
I'll never come back - i'd rather die from eating my banknotes - instead of spending them on microsoft-products.
My data are mine - and i refuse to use bing, hotmail, office, live-products - and also windows, windows phone, sql-server...
You may invent whatever you want - i'll never use Azure - because - you're worth to be distrusted. Your company's record proves it.
Once i take a decision - i'll never look back - and i'm certainly not going back to windows - never again (and apple is no option - hell no).
Right after Microsoft releases Office for Linux.
And maybe it will be worth my time to look at it, or not. Right now, Linux does everything I need. Unless there's a compelling advantage to Windows 10, then no.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Why would it be desirable to run bash on Windows 10 when I'm going to get a better experience using bash on anything else be that Linux, BSD, either native or virtually. I can understand for some people this might be their only choice, but that doesn't make it good, it's just making the best of a bad situation. If they want me to try it, they'll have to make it better than on Linux, not just "good enough to ship". Because if I'm going to use Windows 10, it had better have some concrete benefit given all its massive downsides.
The modern consumer descendant of Unix is macOS. Before I start taking a lot of unfriendly fire, let me tell you that I am a long time Linux fan and Ubuntu has been my friend for many years. But if you want to try a paying Unix clone, buy the cheapest Mac mini with a Microsoft mouse and keyboard and a regular monitor. You will be surprised.
Linux Mint!
If you are a developer working for a corporation, there are tools that run only in Windows (Outlook/Exchange, lotus notes come to mind). Instead of developing in Linux and using a VM for the Windows tools (with the corresponding comsumption of resourses of resources) you may as well develop in Windows10 altogether.
Or, if corporate forces you to use Windows (I am Looking at you Huawei), instead of firing up a VM with linux, or using the half baked cygwin, you can develop on Win10 Bash...
Or, if you develop applications that target more than one platform (say, windows and Linux), you may use Windows to develop and test for linux and windows, no VMs required.
Or, if you fancy a specific piece of gear (say, a very fancy laptop) and do not want to have all the hassle with the drivers (yes, I know the windows situation is not Linux's fault, but is a fact of life.... :-( ), you can get it, and develop your linux SW on Windows 10...
Or, if you are a gamer, and developer at the same time, you do not need no dualboot bodongles...
These are but a few reasons that may entice a Linux developer to develop on Win10 Aniversay...
*** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
I don't develop for Linux but I do build keyboards & program them using TMK or QMK firmware. Getting a development environment for this stuff installed in Windows in the past has been a bear. I just yesterday installed the Linux subsystem and it really does work. This is great 'cause I'm about to begin another keyboard project & I don't need to dual boot just to build the firmware.
"Whatever it is that you normally do on Linux to build an application: whether it's in Go, in Erlang, in C, whatever you use, please, give it a try on Bash WSL, and importantly file bugs on us. It really makes our life a lot easier and helps us build a product...
Fuck you, PAY ME.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
No thanks.
Have gnu, will travel.
Microsoft doing this is like asking a safety-conscious analytical security freak to yield their control for a moment to a control freak.
We don't 'not use your OS' because of its lack of kernel-level power (the Windows 98 days were done a long time ago). We don't use it because it USES US. For eff's sake, you sound like an old 1980s Reagan-era "drug pusher" by making requests like that. "Just try it, you'll love it and want more! Here, I'll prove it by giving you some for free to try."
I, personally, don't know of one single Linux developer OR user that hasn't experimented with Windows 10, in the retail storefront or outside of it, that hasn't just made a simple statement with a laugh like, "Oh. Yay. There's another one. This time they are taking more control away from the user. Gee, why don't I get on it right now?"
That quote isn't exact, but it pretty much covers every individual I know in the OSS/Linux communit[y|ies].
I always think about Spender from GrSecurity when I read this. He uses windows to develop for Linux because it makes him more productive.
As a long time every day user and programmer (Linux, FreeBSD since year 1, MacOS for 28 years, Windows for 20 years), of all major platforms I'm using Linux desktop primarily (and most of my colleagues use OSX) but.. I cannot disagree with Spender. I'd be more productive on Windows for my Linux code (than on either OSX or Linux). I just choose the Linux desktop for other reasons ("I like it" "ideology" "its slowly getting there").
Still, today, Win10 is still the faster, more productive environment for Linux code.. oh and its always extremely good for Windows code too - as long as you don't use old APIs, which really, you shouldn't anymore.
Basically, the Windows platform is very much underrated. No nonsense, super compatible, very fast. They just have a terrible, terrible reputation.
I got a hair appointment and then relatives are coming over...
Listen, leave your number.
I'll call you. No, really, I will.
I was a primarily Microsoft-centric developer for around 15 years, predating the existence of .Net framework. Windows 8/10 and the walled garden philosophy (along with the spying) are directly responsible for me moving my personal and professional computing platforms to Linux.
I now spend my professional time helping folks move away from MS wherever possible. The same principles that lead me to make changes are causing many large enterprises and government agencies to look at other options as well. The licensing is out of hand, particularly for the few remaining cash cows such as SQL Server and Office (nee 365). Don't let the door hit you in the arse, MS.
1) From what I now, Erlang doesn't work on Windows as well as on Linux. I'd wager it's related to lower level details, and not something that an implementation of the GNU userspace can fix. Therefore, I distrust their claim regarding Erlang.
2) Why did they feel the need to mention Erlang explicitly, is it really that popular in Linux world?
From what I see what MS wants
who cares what they want, the question asked about benefits to the user
Unfortunately PHP still doesn't run well on Windows. Come back once the Linux Subsystem for Windows runs a bit better and has better compatibility with server applications.
does come from a company more gay than the Twilight movies, more Teletubby than the TV show,
more back-room-dealng than Nancy Pelosi and HRC, more motvationally challenged than SpongeBob SquarePants,
more invasive than proctologists tools, as well as....
Less sane than Harley Q, Less brave than a Puppeteer, Less honorable than BJ Clinton, Less honest than any car salesman,
less benefcial to society than toilet paper, less tasty than uniicorn poop, less healthy than Zika, and..
has no more common-sense than a Pug/ringworm/emoboi/dustbunny.
Hell yeah all that and mandatory file locking by default. That complete bullshit notion of what a 'service' is and can do. And on top of that 'run as administrator' and symlinks as a privileged operation. What could possibly go wrong.
I had Windows 10. Gave it a honest try. Piece of shit. Reminds me of Vista and Me...but slower and uglier. And they had to "move" everything. After 10 months or so I just realized I hated using it. So I deleted it -- last week actually.
I have really only one need (left) to run Windows anything -- accounting & reporting software @ work. Windows for me has just become an annoyance appliance required to run a couple of windows.
My "go to" today would be Windows 7. 32 bit is still faster (?) and 64 bit is problematic for the one 16 bit app __still__ in use. Ugh. I was just this past week deciding if I should just go back to XP to run the required apps. XP is still WAY faster than all of the above. It's not like Windows is used for web access anymore (or even has access to the Internet). It's just a intranet app layer...
iOS in my pocket, MacOS on my desktop, and Linux for literally everything else -- IoT and every damn server I have.
Fuck Microsoft.
I would love to have Windows 10, minus the bloated reincarnation of ThatDamnedPaperclip, and have a simple user interface like xfce4 (on ubuntustudio), have the bash command line not live within a cupboard in the os, and basically all the stuff I take for granted on my Linux boxes. Only when Windows 10 becomes open source under a GPL compatible license, and Microsoft is happy with people forking the code and doing different stuff with it, will I be happy to even contemplate ditching Linux for Windows. Right now, Windows 7 is my goto legacy platform for VSTs and games. Windows 10 has a bash console that, whilst a breath of fresh air compared to cmd.exe or powershell, is a crippled third-class citizen compared to the command line environment I take for granted on Linux (and also on my ageing 'vintage' macs).
I don't expect that anytime soon.
So let me get this straight. I should switch from a free development environment, that I can install on as many machines as I want, that doesn't feed me ads, that doesn't phone home with my information, that doesn't auto-update unless I configure it to and that ships with source code, to a system that costs money, costs more money to install on multiple machines, feeds me ads, phone home with my information, auto-updates by default and is closed-source?
What's the value proposition here, again?
Ugh...No kidding. Just moved from CT to FL and missing it--especially the mostly-constant temps for fermenting beer.
There are 'open' basements in FL--they're just called swimming pools. Of course, my basement looked like an indoor swimming pool from time-to-time.
beware!
MS Windoze wll send back to the muddership all that they want about your workflow, your modus operandi, and nervous ticks.
It's A TRAP!
They have shown their hand many times to buy or steal anything they think is important, whether it is or not. They prefer free.
As a windows developer since 1993, I can say they have tried to build the biggest programmng pyramid possible. Designed by their own ID/subconscious.
Escher and Dali would look upon it wth ether envy or disgust - probably disgust.
They have forgotten a few things only Bill really knew - since all the leaders since have not been programmers first.
Now they have a really PITA OS, with tendrils and control..... Just say NO!
Worse than desktop Linux circa 2006. On par with desktop Linux plus systemd circa 2016; roughly equal system boot failures.
Not interested in being spied upon by legions of Microsoft creepers and their friends.
Neither do I have any interest in participating in crazy forced update experiments from the same company that fired most of it's QA staff a couple years ago.
Microsoft has made moves over the last couple of years with unyielding upgrade harassment campaigns persistently ignoring users wishes and resorted to dirty underhanded UX tricks to fool people into installing Windows 10. Why should I or anyone else trust a company that behaves in this manner?
There have always been UNIX ports of everything readily available to any windows user who wanted them going back literally decades. The problem isn't the tools or even the operating system. The problem is the COMPANY.
Remove the registry, create more visibility at kernel and base levels, use syslog for logs, use text files for configuration, create unlimited ttys for ssh access, and I might think about it.....
well....basically....ditch Windows and create a MS Linux distro with a linux kernel ....
Windows is a product to SELL and is not enviromentally friendly.....linux is a kernel to use.
Didn't anyone alert their marketing department that it doesn't really matter what device you are on.. and that the goodness is whats ON the Internet? A Belchfire 2020 running latest software from Frobnitz company sees the same CNN.com feed. Viewing platform is no longer relevant, as it was.
Time for a new Political party in the US (or two!) One is off the rails Other cant pony up a leader.
easy set up. acts just like Ubuntu + bash. presumably just as easy to uninstall.
installed pip, tensorflow, keras, and other stuff - no problems.
[btw I did have problems doing this on my actual real Ubuntu machine - versioning issues]
wrote and tested several python ML programs using BLSTM etc - no problems.
the windows environment (browser etc) still worked fine while the machine was flat out training a model.
would be a great way to check something out before installing on your regular Ubuntu.
when graphics is fully supported it will be even more interesting.
if CUDA was supported it would be even better.
...when they learned that President Trump was going to cut off all their cheap access to H-1B visa labor. They need to replace all those testers with free labor out in the community. Seems logical since so many open-source advocates spend lots of their personal time coding for free anyway....
>"all without losing the advantages of Windows 10. "
Such as? Malware? Single-platform browsers? Spyware? Thanks but no thanks, happy with Linux native!
Cause I really wanted more overhead, licences and emulations layers to debug, yééé!
I get paid to use M$ products at work, including Windows 10; and it sucks. Though there are some bits I want to try with the Windows Subsystem for Linux.
They're kidding themselves. Developers, above all others, want complete control of their computer. It's totally unacceptable to be forced to reboot the computer (for updates or whatever) on its schedule, not yours. It's totally unacceptable that you can't choose the updates that are applied - a developer needs such fine-grained control. It's totally unacceptable that Windows allows a window to pop up in front of what you're doing and take the focus. Developers also won't be bothered by advertising on their desktop, and would find their operating system automatically installing apps to be an insult. There's plenty of other reasons lots of developers won't consider Windows, but those are at the forefront for me. Windows is not targeting developers, and many of the choices Microsoft has made over the course of it's development effectively alienate developers in increasing numbers.
I'm sure someone will argue that more expensive versions of Windows allow somewhat improved control over updates, but charging more to control ones computer is no way at all to get developers on board.
And then there's the cost of buying into the Microsoft ecosystem. If you want to develop for Windows primarily, then inevitably you're going to find yourself needing to test on Windows server platforms, and possibly integrate with things like SharePoint and the likes, and because they've scrapped affordable programs like Technet, you're looking at having to buy the top-tier MSDN at several thousand a year. Additionally, they're making it harder and harder for small teams or individual developers to access that material legally.
Advantages of Windows 10? What advantages?
and importantly file bugs on us.
Oh, you want free help. Just say so next time please.
So they're providing "Improvements to Bash on Windows and the Windows Console." Here I thought people did fairly well bashing Windows all on their own. Little did I know they were working on better ways to bash their OS.
I downgraded back to Windows 7 from 10 because Windows 10 was really slow on my laptop. And now my laptop has blue screened just about every time it's booted up with Widows... Even after using the recovery disk to bring it back to a factory image. The Linux Mint MATE that I have is now where I can reliably do all the work that I need to do. Plus Linux Mint MATE is so resource friendly I can do more simply because there are more CPU cycles available. This is noticeable with things like Blender and compiling lots of code.
So we hear that the platform doesn't matter, that Windows 10 is awful and nobody wants the forced upgrade yet in spite of that people *still* don't want to use Linux. I'm curious to hear what the excuse for desktop Linux is this time, it's free, it's easier to install than ever, you can use a LiveUSB to try it without even installing it at all, you can use LiveVMs to try it without even needing to reboot, as you say the platform-specific issues no longer exist (you can even run Office365 on Linux if you really need to) and you can even buy a range of laptops with it pre-installed from huge vendors like Dell. But still relatively nobody uses it, in fact pretty much all open source programs run on Windows too without any significant effort to port them.
There has been a history of blindly defending desktop Linux so now that all the old purported barriers are gone it's time to start to look inward and understand why people don't want to use it. Because sooner or later this "web apps" fad is going to die off.
the window manager is horrible. Windows is good enough for games (running full screen) but not for my work needs.
just bat$h!t crazy. I'm serious. These guys are on another plane of reality. I can't even call it psycho because it psycho is never funny. Kooky. The house is empty. Batty. Loony. Bonkers. Loopy. Mad as a hatter.
In your dreams. Consider yourself middle-fingered once more, Microsoft.
Were [any] of these resolved in Windows 10?
Let's replace the Linux running under the covers in virtually every WiFi router with Windows 10! Oops... gonna need a little more memory!
Look, Windows 10 is not a bad OS for users, but Linux is still significantly easier to develop software on and for, and I say that as someone that has developed on both and someone who is currently working for Microsoft.
Same reason nobody uses the windows store: Few developers write applications for it.
If you want to write a desktop application (which few people do anymore; it's all about web applications these days) win32 tends to be your best target.
Meanwhile, if you want to write server side application, Linux tends to be your best target.
Obviously Linux wins, even if it has fewer developers and less money.
Selectoral College OS rules
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
More to the point, why would I pay MS money to file bug reports for them and develop for an OS my users will have to buy before they can buy my product?
Know they enemy... so MS can gather all the data on the users.
https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
(hint: I'm holding up one finger)
I hear you. After struggling with Windows 10 on my current machine, I'm planning to build a new machine. Main OS will be Linux (haven't decided what distro). Windows will be available (for testing and dev work) as a VM only.
"Microsoft": an ancient Navajo word meaning "really crappy software".
No grass to mow here, see, and you don't even have to pretend to be nice!
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Heck NO !!!! You couldn't print enough money to pay me to use that home phoning piece of cruft.
"It really makes our life a lot easier and helps us build a product that we can all use and be far more productive with", he continued.
Like I care what makes the lives of Microsoft employees easier? Fuck off.
I should change my whole dev process and tool chain to make their lives easier? Fuck off.
Buy a copy of Windows so I can install a LAMP stack under it and run it all in a VM? Fuck off.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Give up the freedom of Linux to live under the thumb of Micro$oft? No thanks.
Thanks but no thanks.
Of the people who actually know what an operating system is, a fairly large proportion use Linux. The vast majority of the population, however, has never installed an operating system and doesn't really know what one is. They just use whatever comes with their device, and sometimes get excited when a new version automatically updates, although they don't really have any idea what they're actually getting. Consider, for example the Windows 10 forced update you mentioned. Most of the people getting that update had no choice because they didn't know how to stop it and didn't really understand what was happening. So, to my view, those people don't really count when discussing what operating system people choose
all without losing the advantages of Windows 10
Um, and these would be? I'm a non-developer MS sysadmin who works with Windows all day, but uses Linux on all my home computers. I can't think of any... other than to use for managing users who are stuck in a Microsoft ecosystem. Once Powershell for linux gets a working method for creating a remote shell (specifically, to Office365), there won't even be that left.
Ideology: A tool used primarily to avoid the bother of thinking.
Same reason nobody uses the windows store: Few developers write applications for it.
Didn't anyone alert their marketing department that it doesn't really matter what device you are on.. and that the goodness is whats ON the Internet? A Belchfire 2020 running latest software from Frobnitz company sees the same CNN.com feed. Viewing platform is no longer relevant, as it was.
Read
Fire up a linux distro, run MonoDevelop or your favourite Mono IDE, run your (.NET) code, host your website on Apache, access your MySQL database from your Java code. Run Solitare, run an Active Directory server, run office. Oh and do it all for free!
Seriously? First Microsoft criticise open-source and linux, then they're trying to win the market back. I don't think it's a bad thing that they're doing this but you'd only develop on windows if you had to. Otherwise, why not develop natively.
Suck a donkey dick and die in the woods.
Sincerely, The ~sane~ world.
From the summary: "...and importantly file bugs on us. It really makes our life a lot easier and helps us build a product that we can all use and be far more productive with, he continued."
Isn't that what the goddamn phone-home telemetry shit is for?
The vast majority of the population, however, has never installed an operating system and doesn't really know what one is. They just use whatever comes with their device
The problem with that argument is that it's the same one employed to justify why everybody used Internet Explorer. These days the Chrome is gobbling up the browser market, while the incumbent Windows browser falls behind. It seems that when they are motivated enough, people are willing to install something new (or have it installed for them).
Of course, an operating system is a much bigger commitment to change, but I would have thought that the desktop use of Linux would have been able to double its market share if even a small number of Windows users did what the loud ones threaten to do; and that is to switch away from Microsoft. Sadly, this hasn't happened. While there are disadvantages to the new Windows, there are some people who actually like it and others who think that it's still good enough to use.
I'm not one of those people. I have begun the change to Linux when Windows 8 was released by moving to cross-platform applications. Now, it is easy to switch operating systems because almost all the programs I use are available on both. My only problem was that while I was making the gradual move I became hooked on PowerShell. It was nice of Microsoft to make it open source and work on Linux!
One of the key changes that took place in some version of windows since I stopped using windows was that I can use the / for a directory path separator. With this change a huge amount of what I develop for linux can now be first made on Windows and then ported. It is so so so much easier to develop C++ for windows first, then fight with linux after.
I use Linux for servers extensively, and Windows server doesn't stand a chance. But I am sick of everything on Linux being a fight. Visual Studio just works. Intelisense, just works, compiling, just works. Apps install and work. yum and apt-get made installing libraries quite a bit easier, but a huge difference is that while the OS in linux often depended upon certain libraries being certain versions. Windows usually doesn't give a crap as to what Qt I have installed. Thus I install the one that I want and not worry about breaking the OS itself.
Didn't anyone alert their marketing department that it doesn't really matter what device you are on.. and that the goodness is whats ON the Internet? A Belchfire 2020 running latest software from Frobnitz company sees the same CNN.com feed. Viewing platform is no longer relevant, as it was.
That's precisely why Android alone is already seeing WAY WAY more use than Windows is, and it and iOS are killing Windows among regular users. However if somebody buys a PC, then they likely have a specific use case in mind that is specific to windows.
In fact I'm of half of a mind to suspect that Android (in the form of Andromeda) will eventually replace Windows for regular desktop users, though I don't have a crystal ball. If that does happen though, then indeed, Linux will dominate the desktop.
He did say please....
Makes linux as bad as windows.
Also SJW bullshit, and coded likewise.
>>> I'd actually prefer it to look like Windows NT/2000/"Classic". That has been, and forever will be, my preferred "working GUI". Right now my Cinnamon setup more or less looks just like it. It's how I make MATE and XFCE look as well. >>>
Please, please tell the world how you managed to overcome the overlay scrollbars, the fading scrollbars, the persistent notification clouds on the desktop, the non-menu and other Cinnamon amenities. I failed.
Bull shit you can run from run office365 on linux, unless by 'run' you mean view the crippled web verson
Wow, MS, not so fast. Impressive abition, but first:
FOSS Windows, NTFS and stuff and start an open system development, then we're talking. Until then it's Linux or the occasional macOS for those of us who've got extra cash and less time to fiddle.
Glad' we could clear that up.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I got the recomendation from MS support to install W7 first and then update. There seems to be a bug in W10 activation that makes it fail when trying to create a unique system identifier (or what ever) for the machine. Its working better in W7. I said fuck it and ran XP in virtualbox under Linux. Get back to me when you have an OS that does not have DRM, don't phone home and can install itself on hardware that was build for it.
Wndows sucks! Not because of its horrid UI but because of its draconian licensing and DRM system.
Iinstalled a windows 10, back when they were practically forcing the update upon us.
Now after an update it stopped booting, the only solution the windows rescue thingie proposes is format and reinstall.
Thank you, I am back to using wine.
Why would anybody put up with such poor technology.
Linux doesn't force you to reboot, and these days you don't have to reboot at all with kernel splicing.
On the other hand the instant you step away from your desk, Windows 10 kills your applications and reboots to install upgrades. Why does it do this in 2016?
SURELY NOT!!!!!
Don't move to the central U.S. The soil there makes basements a bad idea, and even if you do have one of the few places that are geologically stable enough for it, you won't find someone who knows how to make a basement due to lack of demand. (or it will be too expensive because you have to cut into rock)
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
You don't understand even when Microsoft gave Windows away for free I didn't use it. It is not about MS being better or not it is about peace of mind even if everyone else stopped using Linux I still would. I like the fact that it just works and works my way.
It does indeed have a basement, and it's got a serious mold problem. It's called the windows registry.
Trust me, the last thing you want in florida is a basement. Between the insects, humidity, and potential flooding, it would be a "disasta" (quoting Trump). Ironically, the second to last thing you want in florida is a "florida room" (becomes a sauna for half the year), and you can add skylight to that list too.
I wasn't planning on moving to U.S. anywhere, but thanks for the heads-up :)
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
I'll go back to Windoze when you pry my Linux systems (including laptop where I am posting this from right now) out of my cold dead hands! I don't knowingly install spyware on my computers...
Sometimes, real fast is almost as good as real-time.
> su -
su: Authentication failure
Doing serious, professional programming using a Raspberry Pi when you are better served by a i5 with 8G RAM is just... childish.
On what do you do the programming in order to earn the money to buy the i5 with 8G RAM?
How many distinct applications' windows can your phone show simultaneously on said external display?
This isn't such a bad solution for some developers. It is basically the same thing WINE attempted to do. Run Linux but still run Windows, only in reverse.
Imagine you work for a company that provides you a Windows machine, and you have to be the one to switch it to Linux all the time. You mostly code on Linux and the business systems run on Linux. However, you constantly have to load up that Windows VM for all the Windows-required functionality your company has. This is real and common. Examples: 1) legacy system only works on Windows. 2) you have a Power Point that looks terrible in open/libre office so you have to open it in actual Power Point. 3) Your VPN solution only works on Windows (according to IT) and you have to hack together a solution on Linux and every time they change a settings, you have to spend hours debugging your VPN cause IT doesn't support VPN from Linux. 4. There are thousands of windows only applications that business run. Some of the main ones are going away but more Windows only business apps are written every day.
So if you have to run Windows and Linux already, and Windows 10 now has a Linux subsystem, I could see the benefit of using one OS.
But there are non-technical reasons Linux users won't run Linux.
1. Religious-like zeal for Linux
2. Hate, spite, lack of trust, for all things Microsoft (a lot of which has been duly earned)
3. Privacy concerns, both real and imagined
4. Security concerns, both real and imagined and/or less targeted
5. etc...
Most developers aren't writing Android or LAMP apps.
You need some stable environment to run your linux virtual machines in.
I'm an old school programmer who was looking forward to going back to some unix like environment but I've had nothing but trouble installing and running Ubuntu 16.10.
Now I have a failed chrome with flickering screens, I've had to track down a bios update for a processor error - some sort of intel step thing linux couldn't handle, I was surprised to find google drive is not supported. I still can't find a good c++ debugger. Eclipse is a mess. and on and on and on.
my laptop with it runs hot with fans going while doing nothing.
I can handle errors with cutting edge stuff but this was an upgrade install and things simply broke.
in the end people said run windows and set up virtual machines for your work - sad.
What advantages?
A microsoft vai ceder licenças do windows 10 pros desenvolvedores????? acho que nem assim eu toparia tal teste.
Linux is still not on the desktop, so how can we get the tremendous experience of a malware ridden OS?
Well just use Win10 instead of linux as base OS, and you have it all.
No need anymore to push linux for the desktop to get the full virus treatment.
Atari rules... ermm... ruled.
From a Network World article: Windows 10 is possibly the worst spyware ever made. Quote: "Buried in the service agreement is permission to poke through everything on your PC."