I thought of something I wanted to share. Back in early 2000 I left Debian for FreeBSD (could have been any at that time maybe), the main reason being that there was this one guy who was dutifully packaging kde as a side project and he got so harrassed by gimme-gimme lusers that he quit. At that point I thought "Nah, I better move up".
This is really true I didn't made this up in retrospective.
Really, I am amazed to see the willingness of all those useless non contributing critters to bite the hand that not only feeds but indeed.. breathes the very life into your upcoming corpse that made you become the little critters that would.
It's been 8 years since the first Linux desktop miracle, ok. None have galvanized. debian should be happy to be rid of a useless mass of fanboys.
Because it works for everything I need to do and it does so predictably. I need to know very few things to just admin my desktop.
* Have you encountered many problems with hardware compatibility, particularly USB, RAID, and audio?
No. generally hardware is very well behaved if you have normal mainstream or (in sectors) corporate hardware that "everyone has" it will work just fine in both those segments.
* Have you had difficulty finding applications that will run on it?
Not more than with Linux as virtually all Linux apps are being ported pretty quickly (and we can run them under Linux Compat as if they were running on a Linux kernel). I run a full KDE desktop with some of the extra apps (k3b. kmplayer,..)
* In general, will software written for Linux compile and run on FreeBSD without too much difficulty?
In general, yes. There will always be some problematic cases (usually when software is written solely for Linux) but usually they will be overcome and fixed. See also ports. Linux binaries from current Linux systems ought to run on a FreeBSD box also.
Hmm, although the gist of what you're saying is probably true, don't be too harsh on FreeBSD5 just yet. Let's see how it stabalizes. I do agree thet NetBSD is awsome in its simplicity and all, and they do have all major packages and it looked to work very well on my SMP (2xPIII-1100) box with 2-current. Great desktop response, really good. But I also get that with FreeBSD and SCHED_ULE.
pkgsrc might be smaller in numbers but in quality it just smokes ports (don't even argue)
No matter what, the *BSDs are on the run and that's just great! The OSS world very much needs the BSDs as much as it needs Apache, Sendmail, Bind,.. etc.
And pf was of course modeled after Darren Reed's ipfilter which was OBSD's package filter software in the past (until there was some disagreement), and NetBSD's (still now) and optionally FreeBSD's (one of two, now three).
In fact I think iptables was somewhat modeled after ipflter. There has been an ipfilter port for RedHat around RH5 IIRC but it got abandoned.
(skipping the part about this guy's fondness for OSS, and how he and the whole Dean campaign tried to have its perceived "coolness" rub off on them -- anyone can see that)
There was a documentary about the attempted US-backed coup in Venezuela a couple years ago and that film has that exact title. The guy may not even know where the popularized TRWNBT line came from let alone appreciate the irony. It certainly isn't original. Admittedly, it may rub off some more of that perceived "coolness" on him.
BTW That film has been shown on tv stations all over the world (except the US I assume). Democracynow.org has it in its archives I think.
I think I can answer this to some extend, or at least narrow it down a bit.
USL/Novel ended after 1993 IIRC and then the thing needed to be repaired and re-gather steam. There was mailnly the lite and the net tapes to work with at this point from what I understand.
The dot com boom came much later (your reasoning has a time gap).
There was a split, actually NetBSD got established (from net) just before FreeBSD (from lite). Around 1995 ish the dot com boom started its rally. But the big linux boost was more like 98/99 along with the peak of the dot com dreams.
Meantime ISPs were starting up, many of which mom and pops. The interesting question is why the (new) techies went mostly for Linux (slack, debian, redhat).
Meantime the web started to roll. The first and perhaps last profitable web business is... porn. But they mostly went with FreeBSD, as did yahoo. So if power horses were needed they used BSD. Or if they weren't upstarts and had cash it was Solaris or something. A lot of this was already there when small upstart ISPs got around.
It cannot be argued that BSD was still completely in shambles at that point in time. So I have to agree with OP, although it can't be denied that the USL/UBC suit did a lot of harm and wasted a lot of time. It can't be the sole reason if it was good enough for Yahoo to use in, say, '96.
I think the real difference is in BSDs academic nature, which in the early 90s probably meant that it was only known at colleges (and at Sun, IBM and all of course, even at SCO at that time;-), but it was not at all known in the hobbyist/hacker/entrepeneur side of society, while Linux was. Grass roots and all that.
If you're still with me, here's some things to muse about: did the GNU tools/userland and philosophy inspire a new (or older but "left out") generation enough to be a main factor? After all, "linux" is generally associated with "freedom" (which must have 42 definitions) and the C-64 generation (home computers), while BSD is associated with "unix", and by association "mainframes", and "70s". Anything but home computers.
And of course Linux was the antidote to "unix" before it became the proclaimed antidode to Microsoft. All things at its time folks... No doubt BSD will be humping along also.
So, wrapping it all up somewhat, after thinking this through, would the main difference have been that Linux and GNU became the haven of "the outcasts" (very generally speaking) versus the establishment (including universities and professional -- read unix -- IT in general) at a time when just that was needed? Compare with a goldrush or anything alike at any time and place when the jackpot just gets hit if you like, it's the practical opportunists that hit the jackpot, not the academics. So I'd say that it's a mixture of time and place, of ability (good enough), of availability and exposure (the Internet arrived, remember), and of attitude/character/social factors/counterculture and everything of the audience. I suppose also the desire to use this new Internet (and what was before, the phone hacking folks for example must have gotton onto the Net around the same time) to use the possibility to get in contact with likeminded people and if you initially have small circles they tend to find eachother and mingle.
I realize that this is much more grey in reality and nowadays in some ways the opposite seems to be going on in terms of Linux vs BSD relatively speaking, as perceptions and the whole situation concerning Linux versus the Status Quo has changed dramatically. And of course BSD can make good use of most software developed on/for Linux, especially on the desktop, and so while the Linux desktop matures, so does the BSD desktop. And that's good. We all win.
FYI, I have personally (seriously) used Debian 1998 to late 2000 and then tried FreeBSD and stuck with it since.
And I won't go into licensing. I do think that the GPL (or rather it's loudspeakers) cleverly appeal to both socialist-
Bwech 32 bit braincells at work? Hate to talk about karma etc but heck...
Well, if I get to deal out mod points I prefer to hand out + points, apart from the rare "overrated" if someone's really gotten too much mod on for example an extremely biased/shaky (think near-troll) view on the subject.
Read this: I was clearly making a JOKE. With so few comments it does make one wonder how 'Redundant' that is. Perhaps I insulted a right wing baggy with patches on it (yes a patch literally means a band-aid talk about revelations) or something at some point. Perhaps the expresion was used many times long ago (although I don't avidly follow Mars stories I'd be pressed hard to have missed a common joke but who knows, any URLs?)
But then again got too much karma anyway so what the heck. Rejoice. Live up to your projected mentality. Hehe I've already won that's kinda nice.
but why didn't they pick up and join/enhance theora?
I mean if scaling in terms of licensing and perhaps also tech/performance was a problem with MS and with Real and that was one of the motivating factors, why not hook up with an existing emerging solution.
With the patents and all, first I read its fortunately non patentable mathematics, then I read it's patent pending. Confusing.
I'm pretty sure I did email you personally at the time though because you were listed as one of two contact addresses. virkram and nhart to be specific. Feb 18 2004, contents now outdated.
OK, I'll get back to you (both) soon via the forum/maillist(s). I'd need to sync first to the latest source. I did start with the entire sorce (including real codecs and all) to begin with. I'm not very interested in splay:) I don't think that's the problem though.
It's frustrating to see the "real stuff" all build without a major problem only to not be able to get through the gui-y bits. As I said I'm not really a developer but I'm sure I can provide feedback.
Please understand that as someone interested in porting the (full featured) app, I'm not very interested in the cumber, ehh ribosome build system for example (ok that was a cheap shot;-). You shouldn't expect that from me either IMHO. I can understand how such a thing has come about though, and I also understand that the really interesting parts of helix are the server and the producer but as a user (aren't we all) I want the player. And please respect the viewpoint that I may want to work with what's called the community but not actively join it for whatever reasons I may have.
Anyway thanks for answering, and yes I think it was when the web pages were moving. You may be pleased to hear that I was able to run the linux version (built from source) on FreeBSD in January already, only for some daft reason the button images didn't show so I had to guess:)
Allow me to get up to date with the source and then I will accumulate and maybe comment on patches so far and try to clearly indicate where it goes wrong. One more thing: if you're going to have a FreeBSD port or package it has to roughly be in synch with latest gtk so I will target 2.4 anyway. Breakage as I see it might be caused by that but better to solve than to go around by mandating older versions.
Cheers, you guys made my day. I'd gotten frustrated enough to not bother with helix anymore. I changed my mind now.
"Alpha for both is scheduled for May 10th.... Kevin Foreman GM, Helix RealNetworks, Inc."
Great. Perhaps you can make sure it at least compiles on FreeBSD (and others) as well, because it still doesn't. The GTK stuff (arguably *the* part added by "the community") is seriously screwed and uses deprecated widgets/methods. In GTK-2.4 these are disabled by default in its hearder files. It took me a while to realize this.
And yes I contacted "the community" (the web site said "help wanted") but never got a response. Guess they don't want patches that are NIH. OS specific stuff seems to be easily patched but after a few sundays wasted on it, I got sick of dealing with bit rot in the GTK stuff or the interfaces between hxplayer and its GUI. I'm not a developer, but it's pretty clear that folks have barely looked at other platforms yet.
1) If I link to a site that links to a site that has DMCA violating speech, does that mean my site is violating aswell? what about google? If so, how far does this chain go?
Too far.
2) What if someone links to a google cache?
Same thing.
3) Can I say DMCA violating things to my lawyer? What about to a public court?
No and none.
4) If I violate the DMCA outside America, will the FBI trick me into going to Rome and then drug me and take me back to the USA?
Possibly.
5) If I say something that violates the DMCA on national TV will viewers be breaking the law by watching, and will Tivo be breaking the law by recording it? will these people also require a trial?
Likely.
6) If I wear DMCA violating clothing can the police confiscate it if it means i would be breaking public nudity laws? (ie it could be underwear too)
Likely.
7) Im i allowed to violate the DMCA while engaged in sexual intercourse in the state of Florida? What if its consensual?
No and not likely.
8) When praying, is it ok to attempt to tell God that the shift key will disable some CD copy-protection systems?
Not likely.
9) On violating the DMCA, certain evidence would be submitted to court, such as video/audio tapes containing said violation. Who owns this evidence, who can see it and how does the freedom of information act apply to it?
An undislosed party with undisclosed evidence. Nice try.
10) I thought of a way to circumnavigate X device, am I liable under the DMCA if the thought is in my head? what would happen if i talked about it in my sleep? Could i write about it in a private diary? an online journal? a letter?
Yes, always. Yes, always. You'd be held and recorded. Sure, sure, sure, but thye would be recorded.
Tss. Juniper is full of it. It clearly is an implementation flaw, not a specification flaw. As pointed out in an earlier post RFC-793 allows for and recommends checking ACK numbers as well as SEQ numbers when validating a RST, but apparently not many implementations do so (though they still may have other preventive measures that rules out the brute-force-RST scenario).
Slashdot Mirror
I made the choice that I didn't like that community (at that time). I didn't state anything else about any other OS.
(sorry to reply to myself)
I thought of something I wanted to share. Back in early 2000 I left Debian for FreeBSD (could have been any at that time maybe), the main reason being that there was this one guy who was dutifully packaging kde as a side project and he got so harrassed by gimme-gimme lusers that he quit. At that point I thought "Nah, I better move up".
This is really true I didn't made this up in retrospective.
FWIW
no Ubuntu. Happy forking :)
(and this comes from a FreeBSD guy)
Really, I am amazed to see the willingness of all those useless non contributing critters to bite the hand that not only feeds but indeed.. breathes the very life into your upcoming corpse that made you become the little critters that would.
It's been 8 years since the first Linux desktop miracle, ok. None have galvanized. debian should be happy to be rid of a useless mass of fanboys.
Totally UN GRATE FUL, here's to debian!
of this immediate threat of being poked in the eye by terrarists with their shuttles. These weapons should not fall into terrarists' hands.
* Why do you prefer it over other Unix-like OS's?
..)
Because it works for everything I need to do and it does so predictably. I need to know very few things to just admin my desktop.
* Have you encountered many problems with hardware compatibility, particularly USB, RAID, and audio?
No. generally hardware is very well behaved if you have normal mainstream or (in sectors) corporate hardware that "everyone has" it will work just fine in both those segments.
* Have you had difficulty finding applications that will run on it?
Not more than with Linux as virtually all Linux apps are being ported pretty quickly (and we can run them under Linux Compat as if they were running on a Linux kernel). I run a full KDE desktop with some of the extra apps (k3b. kmplayer,
* In general, will software written for Linux compile and run on FreeBSD without too much difficulty?
In general, yes. There will always be some problematic cases (usually when software is written solely for Linux) but usually they will be overcome and fixed. See also ports. Linux binaries from current Linux systems ought to run on a FreeBSD box also.
HTH
It surely is broken but no fixes so far were less broken it seems...
Let alone a new install app.
"BitTorrent is an _excellent_ tool"
:)
Yeah but give me good ol ftp any day
Hmm, although the gist of what you're saying is probably true, don't be too harsh on FreeBSD5 just yet. Let's see how it stabalizes. I do agree thet NetBSD is awsome in its simplicity and all, and they do have all major packages and it looked to work very well on my SMP (2xPIII-1100) box with 2-current. Great desktop response, really good. But I also get that with FreeBSD and SCHED_ULE.
.. etc.
pkgsrc might be smaller in numbers but in quality it just smokes ports (don't even argue)
No matter what, the *BSDs are on the run and that's just great! The OSS world very much needs the BSDs as much as it needs Apache, Sendmail, Bind,
And pf was of course modeled after Darren Reed's ipfilter which was OBSD's package filter software in the past (until there was some disagreement), and NetBSD's (still now) and optionally FreeBSD's (one of two, now three).
In fact I think iptables was somewhat modeled after ipflter. There has been an ipfilter port for RedHat around RH5 IIRC but it got abandoned.
Insightful, my rim!
(skipping the part about this guy's fondness for OSS, and how he and the whole Dean campaign tried to have its perceived "coolness" rub off on them -- anyone can see that)
There was a documentary about the attempted US-backed coup in Venezuela a couple years ago and that film has that exact title. The guy may not even know where the popularized TRWNBT line came from let alone appreciate the irony. It certainly isn't original. Admittedly, it may rub off some more of that perceived "coolness" on him.
BTW That film has been shown on tv stations all over the world (except the US I assume). Democracynow.org has it in its archives I think.
I think I can answer this to some extend, or at least narrow it down a bit.
;-), but it was not at all known in the hobbyist/hacker/entrepeneur side of society, while Linux was. Grass roots and all that.
USL/Novel ended after 1993 IIRC and then the thing needed to be repaired and re-gather steam.
There was mailnly the lite and the net tapes to work with at this point from what I understand.
The dot com boom came much later (your reasoning has a time gap).
There was a split, actually NetBSD got established (from net) just before FreeBSD (from lite). Around 1995 ish the dot com boom started its rally. But the big linux boost was more like 98/99 along with the peak of the dot com dreams.
Meantime ISPs were starting up, many of which mom and pops. The interesting question is why the (new) techies went mostly for Linux (slack, debian, redhat).
Meantime the web started to roll. The first and perhaps last profitable web business is... porn. But they mostly went with FreeBSD, as did yahoo. So if power horses were needed they used BSD. Or if they weren't upstarts and had cash it was Solaris or something. A lot of this was already there when small upstart ISPs got around.
It cannot be argued that BSD was still completely in shambles at that point in time. So I have to agree with OP, although it can't be denied that the USL/UBC suit did a lot of harm and wasted a lot of time. It can't be the sole reason if it was good enough for Yahoo to use in, say, '96.
I think the real difference is in BSDs academic nature, which in the early 90s probably meant that it was only known at colleges (and at Sun, IBM and all of course, even at SCO at that time
If you're still with me, here's some things to muse about: did the GNU tools/userland and philosophy inspire a new (or older but "left out") generation enough to be a main factor? After all, "linux" is generally associated with "freedom" (which must have 42 definitions) and the C-64 generation (home computers), while BSD is associated with "unix", and by association "mainframes", and "70s". Anything but home computers.
And of course Linux was the antidote to "unix" before it became the proclaimed antidode to Microsoft. All things at its time folks... No doubt BSD will be humping along also.
So, wrapping it all up somewhat, after thinking this through, would the main difference have been that Linux and GNU became the haven of "the outcasts" (very generally speaking) versus the establishment (including universities and professional -- read unix -- IT in general) at a time when just that was needed? Compare with a goldrush or anything alike at any time and place when the jackpot just gets hit if you like, it's the practical opportunists that hit the jackpot, not the academics. So I'd say that it's a mixture of time and place, of ability (good enough), of availability and exposure (the Internet arrived, remember), and of attitude/character/social factors/counterculture and everything of the audience. I suppose also the desire to use this new Internet (and what was before, the phone hacking folks for example must have gotton onto the Net around the same time) to use the possibility to get in contact with likeminded people and if you initially have small circles they tend to find eachother and mingle.
I realize that this is much more grey in reality and nowadays in some ways the opposite seems to be going on in terms of Linux vs BSD relatively speaking, as perceptions and the whole situation concerning Linux versus the Status Quo has changed dramatically. And of course BSD can make good use of most software developed on/for Linux, especially on the desktop, and so while the Linux desktop matures, so does the BSD desktop. And that's good. We all win.
FYI, I have personally (seriously) used Debian 1998 to late 2000 and then tried FreeBSD and stuck with it since.
And I won't go into licensing. I do think that the GPL (or rather it's loudspeakers) cleverly appeal to both socialist-
It's got its own libc but the compiler used is gcc.
... a Wall Mart should fit in :)
Bwech 32 bit braincells at work? Hate to talk about karma etc but heck...
Well, if I get to deal out mod points I prefer to hand out + points, apart from the rare "overrated" if someone's really gotten too much mod on for example an extremely biased/shaky (think near-troll) view on the subject.
Read this: I was clearly making a JOKE. With so few comments it does make one wonder how 'Redundant' that is. Perhaps I insulted a right wing baggy with patches on it (yes a patch literally means a band-aid talk about revelations) or something at some point. Perhaps the expresion was used many times long ago (although I don't avidly follow Mars stories I'd be pressed hard to have missed a common joke but who knows, any URLs?)
But then again got too much karma anyway so what the heck. Rejoice. Live up to your projected mentality. Hehe I've already won that's kinda nice.
Beep Beep. Playing my part.
BUNNYWOOD
but why didn't they pick up and join/enhance theora?
I mean if scaling in terms of licensing and perhaps also tech/performance was a problem with MS and with Real and that was one of the motivating factors, why not hook up with an existing emerging solution.
With the patents and all, first I read its fortunately non patentable mathematics, then I read it's patent pending. Confusing.
The running linux version was *not* built from source on FreeBSD just plugged into linux compat. oops.
Please see my answer to rgammon_real.
I'm pretty sure I did email you personally at the time though because you were listed as one of two contact addresses. virkram and nhart to be specific. Feb 18 2004, contents now outdated.
Cheers, thanks for answering
OK, I'll get back to you (both) soon via the forum/maillist(s). I'd need to sync first to the latest source. I did start with the entire sorce (including real codecs and all) to begin with. I'm not very interested in splay :) I don't think that's the problem though.
;-). You shouldn't expect that from me either IMHO. I can understand how such a thing has come about though, and I also understand that the really interesting parts of helix are the server and the producer but as a user (aren't we all) I want the player. And please respect the viewpoint that I may want to work with what's called the community but not actively join it for whatever reasons I may have.
:)
It's frustrating to see the "real stuff" all build without a major problem only to not be able to get through the gui-y bits. As I said I'm not really a developer but I'm sure I can provide feedback.
Please understand that as someone interested in porting the (full featured) app, I'm not very interested in the cumber, ehh ribosome build system for example (ok that was a cheap shot
Anyway thanks for answering, and yes I think it was when the web pages were moving. You may be pleased to hear that I was able to run the linux version (built from source) on FreeBSD in January already, only for some daft reason the button images didn't show so I had to guess
Allow me to get up to date with the source and then I will accumulate and maybe comment on patches so far and try to clearly indicate where it goes wrong. One more thing: if you're going to have a FreeBSD port or package it has to roughly be in synch with latest gtk so I will target 2.4 anyway. Breakage as I see it might be caused by that but better to solve than to go around by mandating older versions.
Cheers, you guys made my day. I'd gotten frustrated enough to not bother with helix anymore. I changed my mind now.
Try kaffeine [kaffeine.sourceforge.net]. Integrates very nicely with KDE, including embedding. Still a bit crash prone though.
"Alpha for both is scheduled for May 10th.... Kevin Foreman GM, Helix RealNetworks, Inc."
Great. Perhaps you can make sure it at least compiles on FreeBSD (and others) as well, because it still doesn't. The GTK stuff (arguably *the* part added by "the community") is seriously screwed and uses deprecated widgets/methods. In GTK-2.4 these are disabled by default in its hearder files. It took me a while to realize this.
And yes I contacted "the community" (the web site said "help wanted") but never got a response. Guess they don't want patches that are NIH. OS specific stuff seems to be easily patched but after a few sundays wasted on it, I got sick of dealing with bit rot in the GTK stuff or the interfaces between hxplayer and its GUI. I'm not a developer, but it's pretty clear that folks have barely looked at other platforms yet.
1) If I link to a site that links to a site that has DMCA violating speech, does that mean my site is violating aswell? what about google? If so, how far does this chain go?
Too far.
2) What if someone links to a google cache?
Same thing.
3) Can I say DMCA violating things to my lawyer? What about to a public court?
No and none.
4) If I violate the DMCA outside America, will the FBI trick me into going to Rome and then drug me and take me back to the USA?
Possibly.
5) If I say something that violates the DMCA on national TV will viewers be breaking the law by watching, and will Tivo be breaking the law by recording it? will these people also require a trial?
Likely.
6) If I wear DMCA violating clothing can the police confiscate it if it means i would be breaking public nudity laws? (ie it could be underwear too)
Likely.
7) Im i allowed to violate the DMCA while engaged in sexual intercourse in the state of Florida? What if its consensual?
No and not likely.
8) When praying, is it ok to attempt to tell God that the shift key will disable some CD copy-protection systems?
Not likely.
9) On violating the DMCA, certain evidence would be submitted to court, such as video/audio tapes containing said violation. Who owns this evidence, who can see it and how does the freedom of information act apply to it?
An undislosed party with undisclosed evidence. Nice try.
10) I thought of a way to circumnavigate X device, am I liable under the DMCA if the thought is in my head? what would happen if i talked about it in my sleep? Could i write about it in a private diary? an online journal? a letter?
Yes, always. Yes, always. You'd be held and recorded. Sure, sure, sure, but thye would be recorded.
Welcome to the new world!
Tss. Juniper is full of it. It clearly is an implementation flaw, not a specification flaw. As pointed out in an earlier post RFC-793 allows for and recommends checking ACK numbers as well as SEQ numbers when validating a RST, but apparently not many implementations do so (though they still may have other preventive measures that rules out the brute-force-RST scenario).
"My name is Ellen Feiss, and I'm a software developer."
:)
And I authorized this mssage