its more complicated then that... you're forgetting people that were tired of being lorded over by fat nobles and various busy bodies that wanted to control every aspect of their lives.
The new world meant getting away from people that made their lives miserable.
let me rephrase then smart guy... in a language you don't speak/read?
And european languages don't count since there are too many similarities.
I can figure out spanish, italian, german, etc and I don't speak or read any of them. But we share a common macro culture and there are enough similarities.
Depends on what part of the country you're in... go to New Mexico for example and you'll run into a lot more of them.
In New York city or Los Angeles you won't run in any at all.
Diversity. The US is not comparable to any country on earth because we're more like a thousand nations blended together into inconsistent chunks. Occasionally you run into a chunk that is largely intact... other times its pureed into a mishmash of a dozen other things creating a unique composite. And it shifts throughout the country. Culture changes... sensibilities change... religions change... politics change... more diversity then you'll find in any one nation in the world.
Dave... what country in the world is as diverse as the United States? Please tell me another country that has our demographics.
There isn't one. The US, like many countries, has many things about it that are unique to itself. Name any country in the world and I can cite a few things about it that it and only it has going for it. The US is no different in this respect. And diversity of population is something the US has to a greater extreme then any other other country on earth.
Its neither a something to be proud of or ashamed of... it merely "is". Like two plus two equaling four... you run the numbers and move on.
cite a source you'll accept... I offered one... you'll find that all sources that offer anything on the issue show this pattern... so I really don't care which you cite.
Your only case if you want to sustain this argument is to reject all data sources and say that there is no evidence one way or the other.
Very well... then we have no literacy statistics at all and there is no discussion since we have no evidence one way or the other.
Thus you are in the position of accepting some source or simply abandoning the discussion altogether.
And what inadequacies would you lay at the feet of America?
Be specific please.
You say we have a literacy problem? Really? Is it general throughout the whole population or concentrated amongst a given population and relatively uncommon elsewhere? It is...
Okay... So why it is it unreasonable to suggest that the problem is not a general problem but rather an issue with that given group of people? It isn't unreasonable. Its actually the most reasonable assessment.
As to your pathetic and baseless attempt to label me a racist with zero evidence... I can only roll my eyes and pity you for being so limited. Your intellectual framework is so tragically limited that you cannot help but label anything that falls outside of your orthodoxy as evil. You're like some 14th century peasant screaming "burn the witch!" Its quite sad that in the 21st century I must be subjected to such nitwits on the internet.
The reality is that you're suffering from a common psychological phenomenon known as cognitive dissonance. You have a strong impression of the world and very little self awareness or mental flexibility. Such that when presented with something you have no answer for you superimpose something you know or are comfortable with on top of that unknown entity.
The reality is that you don't know or understand my argument. You didn't even try. You simply know it doesn't match your pattern. So rather then think about it you impose your pattern on top of it and assume it.
Its a form of self deception. Your mind is strawmanning the universe and I have the misfortune of sharing it with you.
You're just another of those sad fools that labels anything he doesn't understand as "evil!" without bothering to grasp what he's talking about. Your opinions of me have about as much worth as the twits that thought the atom bomb would ignite the atmosphere.
If you want to attempt to have a rational discussion then we will go through your silly misconceptions one at a time and take them apart.
You say I make statements and then run away... Clearly you don't know me. I do not run away... ever. And that doesn't mean I'm never wrong. Rather, I take arguments to their logical conclusion and then declare victory or offer surrender as appropriate. You're calling me a coward... if only an intellectual coward. Well, chum... Will you answer my challenge and continue this discourse or will it be YOU that runs away?
I suspect your response to this will be some fatuous twattle such as "I won't waste my time defending myself" or some other self serving and transparent dodge. I await your pathetic retreat... should you decide to hold your ground, I will mercilessly dissect your cheap little insults until nothing is left but your shame.
Have you ever tried to play a game that wasn't made in your language?
Its almost impossible to play many games if you can't read. I can't speak to every console game... obviously there are games that don't require any kind of reading. But seriously... try loading up a game and switch the language to something you can't read. You can guess with better then 50 50 odds but it isn't pretty.
Just saying...
And to further my point... I don't know or have ever met an illiterate adult in my life.
Thus when someone says the US has a terrible problem with illiteracy it is frankly incomprehenisble to me because these poor people aren't really a part of my society. I have no interaction with them at any time during my day... ever.
And further understand that this isn't because I shun them or refuse to interact with them... they're not at my place of work. They're not at my places of entertainment. They do not join my social groups. How the hell would I even see these people unless I went out of my way to find them?
I know some complete idiots... truly stupid people... some of them have medically certified developmental disorders... and even they can read.
So when I hear of all these people that can't read... and I know people that have fetal alchohol syndrome that can still read... you can understand why I'd be a bit confused as to how this happens.
To be illiterate in this society you either have to be so new to it that it has had no opportunity to educate you. Or you have actively resisted education.
I really don't see any other explanation short of sever mental disabilities.
Possibly this is merely a reflection of my own limited perspective... So be it... I can only operate based on my own experiences and natural intelligence. I am no different from anyone in the world on this basis. We are all equal in this constraint. We differ only in that we have different experiences and different capabilities. If your experiences gifted you a broader vision on this issue then I beg that you share it with me that we might both benefit.
Ah, but does socioeconomic achievement correlate with the same subculture?
What you'll find in most cases is that people with a higher socioeconomic achievement tend to have a different subculture then those of lower socioeconomic achievement.
Do you think the values of a white person living in a trailer park and eating spam is the same as a white person living in a NYC penthouse?
Obviously not.
Tracking subculture is difficult because it is not discretely tracked but rather inferred and assumed. We can't do anything beyond that unless different data is collected.
My argument is not that black people or latin american or asian people are different but rather that given subcultures are past down from parent to child. These cultural traits have consequences that can be good or bad. It is these LEARNED/TAUGHT cultural traits that I believe are responsible for the achievement gaps. As such, I believe the ultimate solution is to encourage elements within their own cultures that advocate for healthier traits.
These traits need not be adopted from other subcultures. This is not a suggestion that they copy another group. Merely that they stop doing things that aren't working and do something that does work. Whatever that is is up to them. It is not for me to tell anyone how they must or even should live. I believe in a free country where people can live and believe how and whatever they want.
That said, if a given subculture expects my tax dollars to subsidize their failures then I feel the whole of society has a right to expect that subculture to reform eventually. It is not reasonable to expect everyone in society to pay generation after generation without end to subsidize the same mistakes.
Is that unreasonable? I strive to be reasonable... that is a core tenet of my personal philosophy. If I am being unfair, then please explain it to me and we might come to a common understanding.
Unfortunately, what you've just done is make a case for segregation since it is not possible to share a society with a group of people that arbitrarily don't have to follow the law. Or some group that can reflexively play a race card at any time to justify any action or circumstance.
To share a common society we must share a common law.
Now you'll point out that statistically given groups tend to go to jail more often or receive harsher penalties for the same crimes.
First let me say that of course the system is some times unfair. Everything in this world is occasionally unfair. In fact, sometimes it is systemically unfair. And in either case you have my full cooperation and attention to fix such injustices. That said, the presence of injustice is not an argument for anarchy. It is rather an argument for reform.
What would you propose as a fix to correct these injustices? Your fix CANNOT apply one rule for one race and another rule for a different race. The law must be impartial.
I'm afraid you've made a mistake in assuming poverty causes these issues. You are making a mistake akin to a doctor saying a fever is caused by a cough just because everyone with a fever has a cough.
Causation and correlation.
Causation pertains to elements that cause a thing or event to occur while correlation pertains to elements that occur at the same time but had no part in causing that series of events.
Poverty in this case is a symptom... not the disease.
You do not cure cancer by proscribing painkillers. And you will not fix this problem by throwing money at it.
To see real lasting change you must trigger a cultural change that becomes part of the inherited cultural framework. It must pass from mother and father to sons and daughters... once established it should be self sustaining.
Anything short of that is a waste of time.
How to do this? I humbly leave that to people more knowledgeable and acceptable to these cultures. They wouldn't accept my presumption of authority or guidance. So I will not waste my time offering it.
All I can do is offer my support to those people acceptable to those communities that try to bring lasting change. No where have I said this will be easy or quick. But the solution is not money... We will offer the money anyway because we care and we want them to do better. But we also understand that the money is worthless without a real effort to change.
Without that effort... in a thousand years you could see patterns no different from today indifferent to any amount of money thrown at the issue.
There is a great deal wrong with it but the problem with it is not a national problem.
Rather, the problem is that unlike many cultures the US is extremely diverse an so the education system must be very different for different groups to be effective.
For example, would you teach white native english speakers in Montana the same way that you'd teach Spanish speaking children in Texas?
Obviously not.
Each education program must be tailored to the needs of each student body. The push by the US federal government for a federal education standard ultimately imposes a One Size Fits All approach that is harmful to most students. It will hold back or bore high functioning students and hold back or discourage disadvantaged students.
Education policy must be local. Ideally to the specific class room. Teachers should be empowered to adapt their lessons to the students they are teaching and not be forced to conform to a national standard or a state standard or a county standard or a city standard or even a school standard. Ideally the lessons should be unique to the individual students if possible but likely the best that is practical is a class standard.
Teachers should be evaluated on their performance with each given group of students. Performance should be measured by the improvement of each student or class over it last measured proficiency. It is not reasonable to judge the teacher or the students against national averages for purposes of judging the teacher's contribution to the students. If you start with average children that come from illiterate households it is not reasonable to judge them against high functioning children from college educated households.
As with so many things, education is complex. And the solution to complexity is to not try and come up with some complex perfect system that can handle any potentiality but rather to give everyone the freedom to make up their own mind and make case by case adaptations.
Effectively... the solution to complexity is granting self determination to local school systems and tolerating differences in their approach.
Obviously at the end of the day we must be measured against some standard, however that standard should be at the end of one's education and not before.
It goes without saying that any system that fails to produce the desired results should be examined for problems.
Schools that are or have been producing a high level of properly educated students should be left alone... that is... if it works, don't fix it.
Given that these impressions are based upon stereotypes from television they are about as valid as the notion that french people don't bath or that all english people have bad teeth.
Your attempt to claim knowledge of a people you've never met and a place you've never been because you've seen some entertainment programs is not a mark of sophistication. Rather, your lazy estimation of a whole people is more typical of the white trash trailer park dwellers presume to deplore.
What is after all the mark of a sophisticated mind? Is it a lazy thoughtless assumption based on day time television? Should I honestly be expected to respect your opinion?
My culture landed on the moon, sport. When you run a search on the internet you probably do it on Google. You're probably using a computer that runs windows or apple. And your CPU is likely either intel or American Micro Devices.
I could go on... We are not a stupid people. We are a very large, complex, diverse, dynamic, and powerful society.
Assume you can sum us up that simply and you'll just be admitting you know nothing about us at all.
Within the US we have absorbed every culture in Europe from Greece to Ireland... from spain to finland. Some have melted into the population and some have preserved enclaves that are distinct to their ethnic heritage. And that is only the start.... we have native Americans... many nations. Much depleted after their near genocide but many still survive and some of them are even thriving. We have dozens of cultures that come from south of our border. Too many to specify here. Each different. A Guatemalan is not an Ecuadorian is not a Chilean is not a Mexican. And then you have the many Asian cultures. Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese. And even within each of these groups you have different cultures. Some came at different times in history and so express the cultures of those times. Others simply came from different regions or have different backgrounds and so are just different. And then you have middle easterners. We have Jews from Iran, Christians from Saudi Arabia... and of course many muslims from there as well. All self selected to come to these shores. And then we have Russians, various flavors of eastern europeans... some came during the time of the Tsars, some came during the time of Lenin, some during the time of Stalin, and some still came after the fall of the USSR.
On and on. And yet you sit there and presume to judge us from some shallow impression on day time television?
I can only pity how small and limited your grasp of the world must be...
African americans raised by different subcultures either due to adoption by another subculture or because their parents for whatever reason belonged or chose to belong to a different subculture statistically perform about as well as the subculture they are raised within.
That is, you can be of ANY race and statistically match any demographic that imposes its culture on you.
The whole thing appears to be about race only in that given subcultures in the US tend to correlate with given races. This is a consequence of given populations having different historical experiences, inheriting distinct cultural traits, and then sharing those traits with their immediate family and friends.
In this way culture can be inherited. However, it is not genetic. It is not a factor of race except as a statistical correlation.
Kindly demonstrate an ability to think by using your brain. These knee jerk reactions do not make you sound noble or righteous... merely petty and callow.
As to scholars from urban ghettos be they of one race or another... you have missed my point. I am talking about statistics... not individuals. To criticize me for not appreciating individual variation is to admit ignorance of what a statistical analysis is in the first place.
No offense... but if you don't know what a statistical analysis is then you don't know enough to judge my opinion as racist or not.
As to spending more money on education, there is no correlation between spending money on education and the attainment of that education by the student body. Charity groups have taught people in mud huts how to read at a high level with practically no budget at all and some of the metropolitan school districts spend upwards of 3000 dollars per student and still suffer a 40 percent illiteracy rate. This while another school district in the same state might spend as little as 500 dollars per student and attain an illiteracy rate below 5 percent.
The money argument is one often made by large institutional teacher's unions that spend the vast majority of the money on teacher's pay and pensions well in excess of what teachers are paid at private schools that enjoy a far superior result.
So no... the money argument has been debunked/mythbusted/WRONG.
As to your economic musings on the last 80 some odd years of American history there is so much wrong with it that I don't know where to start.
I suspect since you're using political talking points repeated almost verbatim with no unique perspective at all I have to believe that you actually don't have any of your own opinions on the issue.
As such, were I to argue with you, my experience is that people like you will just repeat things they've heard like a tape recorder or a parrot. You can't have a discussion with either.
Now maybe I am being unfair... to that end, I will keep an open mind. But if you respond to this post with more of the same followed by hostility, then I'll feel justified in ignoring you as little more then a meat based robot presuming a human form. That might seem harsh but if you're not thinking for yourself then you have no right to claim otherwise.
So... if you want to have a real discussion... use your own thoughts please. Not something taken from a smattering of political campaigns.
There is a lot to be said for this however what kind of parent doesn't try to help their child learn to read?
You get books by dr seuss and other large print books geared to children learning to read. Then you make as part of the nightly ritual reading through a few pages. Every night... And once the child learns enough to read on their own you get them interested in some simple book they can read themselves.
You encourage writing by giving them a diary... tell them to write stories or their thoughts... secret messages for their invisible friend... it doesn't matter. They can write anything. Give them a note pad and tell them you'll buy them their special treat from the grocery store if they can write it correctly on the shopping list.
Appreciate, no where above did I suggest a people were inferior or challenged on a genetic level. To the contrary I have tried to stress that the problem is cultural... learned... a behavior. The same children raised in a different environment often do much better. We see this with children adopted from single teen mothers that opt of adoption rather then abortion. Those children, should they find willing foster parents tend to perform as children do from that demographic rather then from their parent's demographic.
Nature has an effect on a case by case basis. But on average most humans are pretty similar... big distinctions between people from one demographic to another are almost always cultural.
By this logic it would be bigoted to define any group of people as a culture. I could point at Russians or Japanese or Australians and you could make the same statement.
I'm sorry, but people can be grouped and they will be grouped because there is no way to process information about millions of people without breaking them down into manageable groups.
You might here try to blame me for this categorization and make me responsible for it... as if it were my idea or if I had a more enlightened attitude it wouldn't happen. But the reality is that you do it yourself and so does every other human being on this planet. Our neurology does not afford that level of discrete calculation. We operate by finding patterns of large data sets and then manipulating the patterns.
That is literally how our species thinks. To try to think otherwise is to work against your nature. And while that is occasionally useful it is impractical. Especially since pattern based thinking is often equally accurate, more insightful, capable of rendering predictive analysis in ways that a case by case evaluation never will, etc.
In short... be reasonable. I am a human being. Permit me the ability to calculate as a human being.
As I said, to ignore the demographic information is to do no more then confess ignorance of the data.
It is a tragedy of this era that so many read statistics without understanding how to read them.
I say this without insult to you despite my bluntness. It is extremely common that people simply don't know how to read statistics. Major newspapers often fail to grasp very simple concepts like "causation" vs "correlation" which most people on slashdot get but only because enough members have harped on it to get people aware of the issue.
that is not the end of rules that must be followed when you read statistics. Statistical information is really about logic. Its like a constructing a mathematical proof where you describe all relevant phenoma to such an extent that there is only one conclusion. Its about isolating facts and eliminating false conclusions and irrelevant variables.
Too often people are lazy with statistics. They see it as a means to not have to think. They point at some numbers and say that's the answer not grasping that those numbers are data that must be processed scientifically. That requires intelligence, skepticism, curiosity, and patience. Statistics are very rarely handled with all four and so most statistical observations are utterly without worth.
If the above sounds lecturing, pompous, or arrogant, know that that is not intentional. I know no other way to express the concepts and ideas that as I have above. I do so with humility and good will. I do not think I am better then you... if anything I've had different experiences in my life that have given me some advantages in some areas. Doubtless you've experienced some things that have given you advantages over me. A healthy society is one in which we share our strengths and compensate for each other's weaknesses.
This is my attempt here... Best wishes from the internet.
white and hispanic americans are self selected... the only group that isn't self selected are african americans because they were mostly brought to the Americas against their will.
All other groups however are self selected. You cannot say that asian americans are self selected but Hispanic americans are not. True, it was more of a commitment to cross the ocean etc. But it was still a choice. And that was likewise a choice all the white people made before they came to the Americas.
it is theorized that is possibly why we have an optimistic outlook while those that remained in europe have a pessimistic outlook. We were the hopeful ones that took a chance to start a new life in a new land.
Personally, I lament the end of the frontier... I'd keep going west if there were more west to go to... sadly we reached the end of the world.
I'd go to mars if it were open to me... I'd suffer the hard scrabble life in some cramped biodome. It would be a new world.
That is my stock and my nature. Once places get built up enough and all the land gets marked off... a part of me just pines for what lays beyond.
That statistical argument ignores the details in those statistics.
If you ignore all the demographic information that actually tells you what is going on in the population and only focus on ONE variable then you find a high level of illiteracy.
However, if you filter the list you'll find that much of the illiteracy is in communities that have been historically prone to that status for... literally... ever. Nearly all of it is in America's urban squalor. And even then you don't find Asian Americans with high levels of illiteracy despite the fact that many of them either still live or recently came from those urban blight zones.
We have certain demographic groups in the US that are having a very hard time. The reasons for this are debatable but to pretend that our problem is universal and broadly distributed throughout our society is merely to admit ignorance of the facts.
Certain groups are having a problem and they need help. Their failures however do not speak to the general ignorance of our population as a whole.
The US remains one of the better educated populations on the planet. What drags us down is that we have a diverse population where as Japan for example has a very homogenous population. There isn't much immigration from mexico for example or a large discontented african american population that has sadly enshrined ignorance as a badge of honor. Those are facts of the American population at this point. And it isn't reasonable to expect any society to be able to raise everyone up to the same level especially when factions are currently being encouraged to resist integration.
The mantra of the day is "be different, honor your distinctions, etc" and that's fine if your differences are either neutral or admirable. However, if they're a general detriment to yourself and society maybe adopting a more successful attitude might be in everyone's interest.
Here is where someone calls me a racist or a bigot. I am neither. My comments were not anti race but anti subculture. And only against subcultures that have failed. The US is full of subcultures and most of them are successful. If it works, then keep doing it. You'll hear no complaint from me. But if what you're doing isn't working and you're draining national resources to keep your subculture on life support... maybe that should stop.
These communities get enourmous amounts of money from the federal, state, and city governments. Society at large wants to help. We want them to be successful. But it will NEVER happen until these subcultures either adapt to be independent or are supplanted with a more rational framework.
And that is the problem with education, crime, etc in the US almost entirely.
I'm sorry if that sounds politically incorrect but there is reality and there is delusion. Pick one.
We're not talking about the area immediately around airfields.
And as to low flying airplanes... that is correct... the FAA does not have authority there.
Do understand, you can apply additional regulations at the state level if you want.
But why would you want to do it? The point of the FAA is to keep commercial airliners from crashing into each other. Beyond that they really don't have a place in anything.
By the law, their authority starts at something like 700 feet. Stay below that and they have no business saying anything one way or the other about it.
These drones pose no threat to conventional aircraft because they operate at closer to ten thousand feet... not under 700.
The FAA can do what they like above 700 feet. But below it they have no authority or purpose.
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its more complicated then that... you're forgetting people that were tired of being lorded over by fat nobles and various busy bodies that wanted to control every aspect of their lives.
The new world meant getting away from people that made their lives miserable.
And freed of that baggage... they flourished.
let me rephrase then smart guy... in a language you don't speak/read?
And european languages don't count since there are too many similarities.
I can figure out spanish, italian, german, etc and I don't speak or read any of them. But we share a common macro culture and there are enough similarities.
Depends on what part of the country you're in... go to New Mexico for example and you'll run into a lot more of them.
In New York city or Los Angeles you won't run in any at all.
Diversity. The US is not comparable to any country on earth because we're more like a thousand nations blended together into inconsistent chunks. Occasionally you run into a chunk that is largely intact... other times its pureed into a mishmash of a dozen other things creating a unique composite. And it shifts throughout the country. Culture changes... sensibilities change... religions change... politics change... more diversity then you'll find in any one nation in the world.
Dave... what country in the world is as diverse as the United States? Please tell me another country that has our demographics.
There isn't one. The US, like many countries, has many things about it that are unique to itself. Name any country in the world and I can cite a few things about it that it and only it has going for it. The US is no different in this respect. And diversity of population is something the US has to a greater extreme then any other other country on earth.
Its neither a something to be proud of or ashamed of... it merely "is". Like two plus two equaling four... you run the numbers and move on.
cite a source you'll accept... I offered one... you'll find that all sources that offer anything on the issue show this pattern... so I really don't care which you cite.
Your only case if you want to sustain this argument is to reject all data sources and say that there is no evidence one way or the other.
Very well... then we have no literacy statistics at all and there is no discussion since we have no evidence one way or the other.
Thus you are in the position of accepting some source or simply abandoning the discussion altogether.
Your move.
And what inadequacies would you lay at the feet of America?
Be specific please.
You say we have a literacy problem? Really? Is it general throughout the whole population or concentrated amongst a given population and relatively uncommon elsewhere? It is...
Okay... So why it is it unreasonable to suggest that the problem is not a general problem but rather an issue with that given group of people? It isn't unreasonable. Its actually the most reasonable assessment.
As to your pathetic and baseless attempt to label me a racist with zero evidence... I can only roll my eyes and pity you for being so limited. Your intellectual framework is so tragically limited that you cannot help but label anything that falls outside of your orthodoxy as evil. You're like some 14th century peasant screaming "burn the witch!" Its quite sad that in the 21st century I must be subjected to such nitwits on the internet.
The reality is that you're suffering from a common psychological phenomenon known as cognitive dissonance. You have a strong impression of the world and very little self awareness or mental flexibility. Such that when presented with something you have no answer for you superimpose something you know or are comfortable with on top of that unknown entity.
The reality is that you don't know or understand my argument. You didn't even try. You simply know it doesn't match your pattern. So rather then think about it you impose your pattern on top of it and assume it.
Its a form of self deception. Your mind is strawmanning the universe and I have the misfortune of sharing it with you.
You're just another of those sad fools that labels anything he doesn't understand as "evil!" without bothering to grasp what he's talking about. Your opinions of me have about as much worth as the twits that thought the atom bomb would ignite the atmosphere.
If you want to attempt to have a rational discussion then we will go through your silly misconceptions one at a time and take them apart.
You say I make statements and then run away... Clearly you don't know me. I do not run away... ever. And that doesn't mean I'm never wrong. Rather, I take arguments to their logical conclusion and then declare victory or offer surrender as appropriate. You're calling me a coward... if only an intellectual coward. Well, chum... Will you answer my challenge and continue this discourse or will it be YOU that runs away?
I suspect your response to this will be some fatuous twattle such as "I won't waste my time defending myself" or some other self serving and transparent dodge. I await your pathetic retreat... should you decide to hold your ground, I will mercilessly dissect your cheap little insults until nothing is left but your shame.
Your move, twit.
Have you ever tried to play a game that wasn't made in your language?
Its almost impossible to play many games if you can't read. I can't speak to every console game... obviously there are games that don't require any kind of reading. But seriously... try loading up a game and switch the language to something you can't read. You can guess with better then 50 50 odds but it isn't pretty.
Just saying...
And to further my point... I don't know or have ever met an illiterate adult in my life.
Thus when someone says the US has a terrible problem with illiteracy it is frankly incomprehenisble to me because these poor people aren't really a part of my society. I have no interaction with them at any time during my day... ever.
And further understand that this isn't because I shun them or refuse to interact with them... they're not at my place of work. They're not at my places of entertainment. They do not join my social groups. How the hell would I even see these people unless I went out of my way to find them?
I know some complete idiots... truly stupid people... some of them have medically certified developmental disorders... and even they can read.
So when I hear of all these people that can't read... and I know people that have fetal alchohol syndrome that can still read... you can understand why I'd be a bit confused as to how this happens.
To be illiterate in this society you either have to be so new to it that it has had no opportunity to educate you. Or you have actively resisted education.
I really don't see any other explanation short of sever mental disabilities.
Possibly this is merely a reflection of my own limited perspective... So be it... I can only operate based on my own experiences and natural intelligence. I am no different from anyone in the world on this basis. We are all equal in this constraint. We differ only in that we have different experiences and different capabilities. If your experiences gifted you a broader vision on this issue then I beg that you share it with me that we might both benefit.
Ah, but does socioeconomic achievement correlate with the same subculture?
What you'll find in most cases is that people with a higher socioeconomic achievement tend to have a different subculture then those of lower socioeconomic achievement.
Do you think the values of a white person living in a trailer park and eating spam is the same as a white person living in a NYC penthouse?
Obviously not.
Tracking subculture is difficult because it is not discretely tracked but rather inferred and assumed. We can't do anything beyond that unless different data is collected.
My argument is not that black people or latin american or asian people are different but rather that given subcultures are past down from parent to child. These cultural traits have consequences that can be good or bad. It is these LEARNED/TAUGHT cultural traits that I believe are responsible for the achievement gaps. As such, I believe the ultimate solution is to encourage elements within their own cultures that advocate for healthier traits.
These traits need not be adopted from other subcultures. This is not a suggestion that they copy another group. Merely that they stop doing things that aren't working and do something that does work. Whatever that is is up to them. It is not for me to tell anyone how they must or even should live. I believe in a free country where people can live and believe how and whatever they want.
That said, if a given subculture expects my tax dollars to subsidize their failures then I feel the whole of society has a right to expect that subculture to reform eventually. It is not reasonable to expect everyone in society to pay generation after generation without end to subsidize the same mistakes.
Is that unreasonable? I strive to be reasonable... that is a core tenet of my personal philosophy. If I am being unfair, then please explain it to me and we might come to a common understanding.
Unfortunately, what you've just done is make a case for segregation since it is not possible to share a society with a group of people that arbitrarily don't have to follow the law. Or some group that can reflexively play a race card at any time to justify any action or circumstance.
To share a common society we must share a common law.
Now you'll point out that statistically given groups tend to go to jail more often or receive harsher penalties for the same crimes.
First let me say that of course the system is some times unfair. Everything in this world is occasionally unfair. In fact, sometimes it is systemically unfair. And in either case you have my full cooperation and attention to fix such injustices. That said, the presence of injustice is not an argument for anarchy. It is rather an argument for reform.
What would you propose as a fix to correct these injustices? Your fix CANNOT apply one rule for one race and another rule for a different race. The law must be impartial.
I'm afraid you've made a mistake in assuming poverty causes these issues. You are making a mistake akin to a doctor saying a fever is caused by a cough just because everyone with a fever has a cough.
Causation and correlation.
Causation pertains to elements that cause a thing or event to occur while correlation pertains to elements that occur at the same time but had no part in causing that series of events.
Poverty in this case is a symptom... not the disease.
You do not cure cancer by proscribing painkillers. And you will not fix this problem by throwing money at it.
To see real lasting change you must trigger a cultural change that becomes part of the inherited cultural framework. It must pass from mother and father to sons and daughters... once established it should be self sustaining.
Anything short of that is a waste of time.
How to do this? I humbly leave that to people more knowledgeable and acceptable to these cultures. They wouldn't accept my presumption of authority or guidance. So I will not waste my time offering it.
All I can do is offer my support to those people acceptable to those communities that try to bring lasting change. No where have I said this will be easy or quick. But the solution is not money... We will offer the money anyway because we care and we want them to do better. But we also understand that the money is worthless without a real effort to change.
Without that effort... in a thousand years you could see patterns no different from today indifferent to any amount of money thrown at the issue.
Its simply what is...
There is a great deal wrong with it but the problem with it is not a national problem.
Rather, the problem is that unlike many cultures the US is extremely diverse an so the education system must be very different for different groups to be effective.
For example, would you teach white native english speakers in Montana the same way that you'd teach Spanish speaking children in Texas?
Obviously not.
Each education program must be tailored to the needs of each student body. The push by the US federal government for a federal education standard ultimately imposes a One Size Fits All approach that is harmful to most students. It will hold back or bore high functioning students and hold back or discourage disadvantaged students.
Education policy must be local. Ideally to the specific class room. Teachers should be empowered to adapt their lessons to the students they are teaching and not be forced to conform to a national standard or a state standard or a county standard or a city standard or even a school standard. Ideally the lessons should be unique to the individual students if possible but likely the best that is practical is a class standard.
Teachers should be evaluated on their performance with each given group of students. Performance should be measured by the improvement of each student or class over it last measured proficiency. It is not reasonable to judge the teacher or the students against national averages for purposes of judging the teacher's contribution to the students. If you start with average children that come from illiterate households it is not reasonable to judge them against high functioning children from college educated households.
As with so many things, education is complex. And the solution to complexity is to not try and come up with some complex perfect system that can handle any potentiality but rather to give everyone the freedom to make up their own mind and make case by case adaptations.
Effectively... the solution to complexity is granting self determination to local school systems and tolerating differences in their approach.
Obviously at the end of the day we must be measured against some standard, however that standard should be at the end of one's education and not before.
It goes without saying that any system that fails to produce the desired results should be examined for problems.
Schools that are or have been producing a high level of properly educated students should be left alone... that is... if it works, don't fix it.
Given that these impressions are based upon stereotypes from television they are about as valid as the notion that french people don't bath or that all english people have bad teeth.
Your attempt to claim knowledge of a people you've never met and a place you've never been because you've seen some entertainment programs is not a mark of sophistication. Rather, your lazy estimation of a whole people is more typical of the white trash trailer park dwellers presume to deplore.
What is after all the mark of a sophisticated mind? Is it a lazy thoughtless assumption based on day time television? Should I honestly be expected to respect your opinion?
My culture landed on the moon, sport. When you run a search on the internet you probably do it on Google. You're probably using a computer that runs windows or apple. And your CPU is likely either intel or American Micro Devices.
I could go on... We are not a stupid people. We are a very large, complex, diverse, dynamic, and powerful society.
Assume you can sum us up that simply and you'll just be admitting you know nothing about us at all.
Within the US we have absorbed every culture in Europe from Greece to Ireland... from spain to finland. Some have melted into the population and some have preserved enclaves that are distinct to their ethnic heritage. And that is only the start.... we have native Americans... many nations. Much depleted after their near genocide but many still survive and some of them are even thriving. We have dozens of cultures that come from south of our border. Too many to specify here. Each different. A Guatemalan is not an Ecuadorian is not a Chilean is not a Mexican. And then you have the many Asian cultures. Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese. And even within each of these groups you have different cultures. Some came at different times in history and so express the cultures of those times. Others simply came from different regions or have different backgrounds and so are just different. And then you have middle easterners. We have Jews from Iran, Christians from Saudi Arabia... and of course many muslims from there as well. All self selected to come to these shores. And then we have Russians, various flavors of eastern europeans... some came during the time of the Tsars, some came during the time of Lenin, some during the time of Stalin, and some still came after the fall of the USSR.
On and on. And yet you sit there and presume to judge us from some shallow impression on day time television?
I can only pity how small and limited your grasp of the world must be...
Don't try to high hat me... I am better at it.
Actually it is you that just used strawman.
African americans raised by different subcultures either due to adoption by another subculture or because their parents for whatever reason belonged or chose to belong to a different subculture statistically perform about as well as the subculture they are raised within.
That is, you can be of ANY race and statistically match any demographic that imposes its culture on you.
The whole thing appears to be about race only in that given subcultures in the US tend to correlate with given races. This is a consequence of given populations having different historical experiences, inheriting distinct cultural traits, and then sharing those traits with their immediate family and friends.
In this way culture can be inherited. However, it is not genetic. It is not a factor of race except as a statistical correlation.
Kindly demonstrate an ability to think by using your brain. These knee jerk reactions do not make you sound noble or righteous... merely petty and callow.
As to scholars from urban ghettos be they of one race or another... you have missed my point. I am talking about statistics... not individuals. To criticize me for not appreciating individual variation is to admit ignorance of what a statistical analysis is in the first place.
No offense... but if you don't know what a statistical analysis is then you don't know enough to judge my opinion as racist or not.
As to spending more money on education, there is no correlation between spending money on education and the attainment of that education by the student body. Charity groups have taught people in mud huts how to read at a high level with practically no budget at all and some of the metropolitan school districts spend upwards of 3000 dollars per student and still suffer a 40 percent illiteracy rate. This while another school district in the same state might spend as little as 500 dollars per student and attain an illiteracy rate below 5 percent.
The money argument is one often made by large institutional teacher's unions that spend the vast majority of the money on teacher's pay and pensions well in excess of what teachers are paid at private schools that enjoy a far superior result.
So no... the money argument has been debunked/mythbusted/WRONG.
As to your economic musings on the last 80 some odd years of American history there is so much wrong with it that I don't know where to start.
I suspect since you're using political talking points repeated almost verbatim with no unique perspective at all I have to believe that you actually don't have any of your own opinions on the issue.
As such, were I to argue with you, my experience is that people like you will just repeat things they've heard like a tape recorder or a parrot. You can't have a discussion with either.
Now maybe I am being unfair... to that end, I will keep an open mind. But if you respond to this post with more of the same followed by hostility, then I'll feel justified in ignoring you as little more then a meat based robot presuming a human form. That might seem harsh but if you're not thinking for yourself then you have no right to claim otherwise.
So... if you want to have a real discussion... use your own thoughts please. Not something taken from a smattering of political campaigns.
There is a lot to be said for this however what kind of parent doesn't try to help their child learn to read?
You get books by dr seuss and other large print books geared to children learning to read. Then you make as part of the nightly ritual reading through a few pages. Every night... And once the child learns enough to read on their own you get them interested in some simple book they can read themselves.
You encourage writing by giving them a diary... tell them to write stories or their thoughts... secret messages for their invisible friend... it doesn't matter. They can write anything. Give them a note pad and tell them you'll buy them their special treat from the grocery store if they can write it correctly on the shopping list.
Appreciate, no where above did I suggest a people were inferior or challenged on a genetic level. To the contrary I have tried to stress that the problem is cultural... learned... a behavior. The same children raised in a different environment often do much better. We see this with children adopted from single teen mothers that opt of adoption rather then abortion. Those children, should they find willing foster parents tend to perform as children do from that demographic rather then from their parent's demographic.
Nature has an effect on a case by case basis. But on average most humans are pretty similar... big distinctions between people from one demographic to another are almost always cultural.
By this logic it would be bigoted to define any group of people as a culture. I could point at Russians or Japanese or Australians and you could make the same statement.
I'm sorry, but people can be grouped and they will be grouped because there is no way to process information about millions of people without breaking them down into manageable groups.
You might here try to blame me for this categorization and make me responsible for it... as if it were my idea or if I had a more enlightened attitude it wouldn't happen. But the reality is that you do it yourself and so does every other human being on this planet. Our neurology does not afford that level of discrete calculation. We operate by finding patterns of large data sets and then manipulating the patterns.
That is literally how our species thinks. To try to think otherwise is to work against your nature. And while that is occasionally useful it is impractical. Especially since pattern based thinking is often equally accurate, more insightful, capable of rendering predictive analysis in ways that a case by case evaluation never will, etc.
In short... be reasonable. I am a human being. Permit me the ability to calculate as a human being.
You'd think that, but you'd be wrong.
Education statistics from rural Montana for example are excellent.
here are some stats:
Alaska (2003) 13.3
California (2003) 20.3
Montana (2003) 5.9
New York (2003) 22
you can find the stats here:
http://nces.ed.gov/naal/estima...
As I said, to ignore the demographic information is to do no more then confess ignorance of the data.
It is a tragedy of this era that so many read statistics without understanding how to read them.
I say this without insult to you despite my bluntness. It is extremely common that people simply don't know how to read statistics. Major newspapers often fail to grasp very simple concepts like "causation" vs "correlation" which most people on slashdot get but only because enough members have harped on it to get people aware of the issue.
that is not the end of rules that must be followed when you read statistics. Statistical information is really about logic. Its like a constructing a mathematical proof where you describe all relevant phenoma to such an extent that there is only one conclusion. Its about isolating facts and eliminating false conclusions and irrelevant variables.
Too often people are lazy with statistics. They see it as a means to not have to think. They point at some numbers and say that's the answer not grasping that those numbers are data that must be processed scientifically. That requires intelligence, skepticism, curiosity, and patience. Statistics are very rarely handled with all four and so most statistical observations are utterly without worth.
If the above sounds lecturing, pompous, or arrogant, know that that is not intentional. I know no other way to express the concepts and ideas that as I have above. I do so with humility and good will. I do not think I am better then you... if anything I've had different experiences in my life that have given me some advantages in some areas. Doubtless you've experienced some things that have given you advantages over me. A healthy society is one in which we share our strengths and compensate for each other's weaknesses.
This is my attempt here... Best wishes from the internet.
white and hispanic americans are self selected... the only group that isn't self selected are african americans because they were mostly brought to the Americas against their will.
All other groups however are self selected. You cannot say that asian americans are self selected but Hispanic americans are not. True, it was more of a commitment to cross the ocean etc. But it was still a choice. And that was likewise a choice all the white people made before they came to the Americas.
it is theorized that is possibly why we have an optimistic outlook while those that remained in europe have a pessimistic outlook. We were the hopeful ones that took a chance to start a new life in a new land.
Personally, I lament the end of the frontier... I'd keep going west if there were more west to go to... sadly we reached the end of the world.
I'd go to mars if it were open to me... I'd suffer the hard scrabble life in some cramped biodome. It would be a new world.
That is my stock and my nature. Once places get built up enough and all the land gets marked off... a part of me just pines for what lays beyond.
That statistical argument ignores the details in those statistics.
If you ignore all the demographic information that actually tells you what is going on in the population and only focus on ONE variable then you find a high level of illiteracy.
However, if you filter the list you'll find that much of the illiteracy is in communities that have been historically prone to that status for... literally... ever. Nearly all of it is in America's urban squalor. And even then you don't find Asian Americans with high levels of illiteracy despite the fact that many of them either still live or recently came from those urban blight zones.
We have certain demographic groups in the US that are having a very hard time. The reasons for this are debatable but to pretend that our problem is universal and broadly distributed throughout our society is merely to admit ignorance of the facts.
Certain groups are having a problem and they need help. Their failures however do not speak to the general ignorance of our population as a whole.
The US remains one of the better educated populations on the planet. What drags us down is that we have a diverse population where as Japan for example has a very homogenous population. There isn't much immigration from mexico for example or a large discontented african american population that has sadly enshrined ignorance as a badge of honor. Those are facts of the American population at this point. And it isn't reasonable to expect any society to be able to raise everyone up to the same level especially when factions are currently being encouraged to resist integration.
The mantra of the day is "be different, honor your distinctions, etc" and that's fine if your differences are either neutral or admirable. However, if they're a general detriment to yourself and society maybe adopting a more successful attitude might be in everyone's interest.
Here is where someone calls me a racist or a bigot. I am neither. My comments were not anti race but anti subculture. And only against subcultures that have failed. The US is full of subcultures and most of them are successful. If it works, then keep doing it. You'll hear no complaint from me. But if what you're doing isn't working and you're draining national resources to keep your subculture on life support... maybe that should stop.
These communities get enourmous amounts of money from the federal, state, and city governments. Society at large wants to help. We want them to be successful. But it will NEVER happen until these subcultures either adapt to be independent or are supplanted with a more rational framework.
And that is the problem with education, crime, etc in the US almost entirely.
I'm sorry if that sounds politically incorrect but there is reality and there is delusion. Pick one.
Then birds haven't adapted to flight because they occasionally fly into trees.
Animals die all the time... adaptation does not mean perfection.
Think about how many people we have on the road. Think about how often someone gets into an accident. Consider the complexity, the speed, etc.
We do quite well.
there is nothing about a modern car that would be intuitive to a cave man.
We adapt to things all the time. Its part of being an intelligent animal.
Class G airspace.
Explain why I'm wrong?
Because I'm pretty sure people that use hang gliders don't need pilot's licenses.
As to 10k feet... I said 700 feet. Could your plane go above 700 feet?
I'm going to ignore that last bit of rudeness at the end of your post and just give you an opportunity to respond. Please do so with more civility.
Exactly, that was just the console makers trying to kill it. They failed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
We're not talking about the area immediately around airfields.
And as to low flying airplanes... that is correct... the FAA does not have authority there.
Do understand, you can apply additional regulations at the state level if you want.
But why would you want to do it? The point of the FAA is to keep commercial airliners from crashing into each other. Beyond that they really don't have a place in anything.
By the law, their authority starts at something like 700 feet. Stay below that and they have no business saying anything one way or the other about it.
These drones pose no threat to conventional aircraft because they operate at closer to ten thousand feet... not under 700.
The FAA can do what they like above 700 feet. But below it they have no authority or purpose.