Then why publish at all? Why not just hand down edicts from the gods and assume everything worked to plan.
Your conception isn't science. It has to be disseminated and then other scientists need to look over it all.
We'll know in a couple months if there are any obvious flaws.
We've had mistakes hide in plain sight for decades.
As to your insult, you make me sad. Any claim to intellectual integrity went right out the window when you started throwing out cheap insults to mask your incompetence.
You can always control a conclusion if you control the premise.
If I told you to just trust me because I'm really sure you wouldn't take that as a fact would you.
I'm not being unreasonable here. I just think it's a bad idea to jump to any conclusions until people have had more time to go over the data.
The level of certainty is THEIR estimation of certainty. If you're wrong but think you're right then you're going to say you are very certain. If you made a mistake but didn't realize it then that isn't going to factor into your calculations.
Science is not about trust. It's about methodically checking things without attachment.
You don't know what happened there. We've had such things happen in the past. Especially with all the scientists in one place all using the same piece of equipment... anything is possible.
Possibly we're not the only ones... but maybe we're the only ones in this part of the galaxy? Radio waves are not a realistic means of interstellar communication. They dissipate too quickly.
So even if there is lots of intelligent life out there you would still be wasting your money with SETI as they'd be focusing on the wrong type of technology.
Until we have a theory as to what technology can transmit information across galaxies without being reduced to meaningless static... there is no point in SETI. You're trying to listen without ears. Get the ears first and then listen. Radio telescopes aren't going to cut it.
Wrong. The clock starts when the data has come in and the initial analysis has been disseminated.
Possibly the clock won't start until they formally publish. It doesn't start until the wider scientific community gets a good look at the data. And even then it will take months for that to be properly processed.
What we have here is something that "might" be the higgs. Great. Possibly in six months we'll know for sure.
Forgive me thinking it's premature to jump to conclusions until the information has been vetted by a larger group of scientists. I distrust anything that moves that fast because I know human auditing systems don't work that fast. Which means this was only internally audited.
Just because their data is similar to what they were looking for doesn't mean everything hangs together perfectly. There have been many instances in which data was close to what hypothesis said it would be without the hypothesis being accurate.
All I'm saying is slow down and let a wider group of scientists look at the findings. If in three months everyone thinks they found the higgs then I'll take this more seriously.
I've been following this and it sounded like they were going through a very long check list of possibilities. Trying one thing after another. And this whole thing about "we're getting close" was mostly that they were getting close to the end of the list of possibilities.
What I worry is that they didn't so much find it as they got to the end of the list and are concluding by process of elimination that that must be the Higgs.
I'm obviously a layman and my opinion on these matters isn't worth much. But I am a fair judge of human nature, human bureaucracy, and I do understand how important this issue is to the physicists. It would be deeply embarrassing if after all this they make a break through.
The whole concept of the martyr is overrated. People like to bring up Jesus Christ forgetting that it was the official adoption of the religion by the empire that actually brought it to power.
Simply going after someone and being fairly relentless about it has a long history of success.
As to whether this is moral or just... that's a different argument. But this is having a chilling effect and many people that might otherwise want to play this game choosing otherwise.
I'm a big fan of net neutrality but the way to go about it is through competition not through government fiat.
If people that buy internet access always have access to several different options then any ISP that behaves badly will lose customers.
Right now we have cable and phone line monopolies. This is why we have a problem. Allow any company to run cable or phone lines so long as they pay a pole fee which is set by the local city or county.
That will mean more cable is run everywhere and competition will increase. Large cities will see the biggest rise. Small towns either might not see anything or they might start their own local ISPs.
In any case, that is how you solve this problem. Not with an edict from washington.
it doesn't exist for anyone... you think young lawyers or accountants are well treated?
Get real. They're worked like dogs. And you think having a law degree means you're assured a good income? You're lucky if you can get a job at all.
The point I'm making is that these professions are not paid for by the hour for young workers. They get a salary. That doesn't mean they don't work long hours. You could very well be spending most of your time at the lawfirm... that is in a 24 hour period over 50 percent of that could be at work.
So don't tell me that programmers are the only ones that have it bad. They aren't. The problem with programmers is not that they're worked hard. Being worked hard is a necessary evil. And it's only going to get worse as labor costs go up and the companies need to work employees harder to justify the expense.
The problem is rather that pay is by the hour rather then by the job itself.
We can make the above better but its going to take a lot of labor and tax reform. The cost of hiring and employing people keeps going up. And this is largely why wages have stagnated. Sure, the employee is making less but that doesn't mean the company is paying less. Add up the taxes, insurance, benefits, and red tape and they're paying more.
People at the bottom income bracket could be making twice their current income if we reformed these systems.
And this is also a large factor in why unemployment is rising.
It just is... And until this is fixed enjoy the outsourcing.
So I have another program to find dragons and big feet. Will you fund my program? It's really cheap. I only want two million a year for it.
That's a tiny amount of money.
I don't care how little it is... it could be 1 penny. How much it is not relevant. It's not worth funding at any price.
If scientists want to donate their own personal time to work on it. And the radio telescopes have unused time... then have fun. I but the instant you want a portion of the national tax money to look for aliens the answer is no.
I'll fund NASA. I don't care if nasa gets a much larger budget. If the SETI budget covers everyone's lunches in NASA it will be better spent.
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Then why publish at all? Why not just hand down edicts from the gods and assume everything worked to plan.
Your conception isn't science. It has to be disseminated and then other scientists need to look over it all.
We'll know in a couple months if there are any obvious flaws.
We've had mistakes hide in plain sight for decades.
As to your insult, you make me sad. Any claim to intellectual integrity went right out the window when you started throwing out cheap insults to mask your incompetence.
Time... give it a little time. You're rubber stamping things before they've even submitted official papers.
Let them submit their findings and then we can wait while the scientific community goes over the results.
Calm down. Deep breaths in and out. Patience.
We have a failure to communicate and you're now boring me.
We're done.
You can always control a conclusion if you control the premise.
If I told you to just trust me because I'm really sure you wouldn't take that as a fact would you.
I'm not being unreasonable here. I just think it's a bad idea to jump to any conclusions until people have had more time to go over the data.
The level of certainty is THEIR estimation of certainty. If you're wrong but think you're right then you're going to say you are very certain. If you made a mistake but didn't realize it then that isn't going to factor into your calculations.
Patience.
No, I said such things are possible.
Science is not about trust. It's about methodically checking things without attachment.
You don't know what happened there. We've had such things happen in the past. Especially with all the scientists in one place all using the same piece of equipment... anything is possible.
Just be patient.
Wrong.
I am merely reserving judgment until the findings are disseminated and vetting by peers.
Your claims to scientific knowledge are undermined by your insistence of reckless haste.
Patience and total dispassion are prime virtues in science.
Slow down, follow procedure, and calm down.
As to building another LHC... I'd be surprised if the physicists didn't say at some point that they need a bigger and more powerful accelerator.
Possibly we're not the only ones... but maybe we're the only ones in this part of the galaxy? Radio waves are not a realistic means of interstellar communication. They dissipate too quickly.
So even if there is lots of intelligent life out there you would still be wasting your money with SETI as they'd be focusing on the wrong type of technology.
Until we have a theory as to what technology can transmit information across galaxies without being reduced to meaningless static... there is no point in SETI. You're trying to listen without ears. Get the ears first and then listen. Radio telescopes aren't going to cut it.
That's fine... I just object to people jumping to conclusions until the process has worked itself out. It takes time.
A strawman isn't an argument. Do it again and I'll have to assume you're a troll.
I haven't made up my mind. To the contrary, I am merely waiting for confirmation. That takes time. I'm being patient.
That is the only intellectually valid response. To be hasty in such a matter is unjustifiable.
I applaud the team's work and wait for their findings to be vetted by third parties.
Wrong. The clock starts when the data has come in and the initial analysis has been disseminated.
Possibly the clock won't start until they formally publish. It doesn't start until the wider scientific community gets a good look at the data. And even then it will take months for that to be properly processed.
What we have here is something that "might" be the higgs. Great. Possibly in six months we'll know for sure.
I simply have a problem with concluding things quickly.
Human auditing systems are not that fast. So if you decide this fast it wasn't audited.
I want it audited before I give it credence.
you're right. regardless... I think it's prudent to let this settle a bit before drawing any firm conclusions.
So they say... you can't say 99.99999 percent until it's been peer reviewed.
Jesus, calm the f' down. Would it kill anyone to be patient?
It's absurd to assume this settled and done before it's been examined by a wider group.
It's fundamentally unscientific to be so hasty.
End of line.
Forgive me thinking it's premature to jump to conclusions until the information has been vetted by a larger group of scientists. I distrust anything that moves that fast because I know human auditing systems don't work that fast. Which means this was only internally audited.
Just because their data is similar to what they were looking for doesn't mean everything hangs together perfectly. There have been many instances in which data was close to what hypothesis said it would be without the hypothesis being accurate.
All I'm saying is slow down and let a wider group of scientists look at the findings. If in three months everyone thinks they found the higgs then I'll take this more seriously.
I'll believe that when it's been passed around by peers for awhile.
hmmm... an experiment must be falsifiable.
I've been following this and it sounded like they were going through a very long check list of possibilities. Trying one thing after another. And this whole thing about "we're getting close" was mostly that they were getting close to the end of the list of possibilities.
What I worry is that they didn't so much find it as they got to the end of the list and are concluding by process of elimination that that must be the Higgs.
I'm obviously a layman and my opinion on these matters isn't worth much. But I am a fair judge of human nature, human bureaucracy, and I do understand how important this issue is to the physicists. It would be deeply embarrassing if after all this they make a break through.
So... I'm skeptical.
It sounds like they're saying they "think" they found it. Which is not the same thing.
We'll save the "bittersweet" nonsense until it's confirmed.
The whole concept of the martyr is overrated. People like to bring up Jesus Christ forgetting that it was the official adoption of the religion by the empire that actually brought it to power.
Simply going after someone and being fairly relentless about it has a long history of success.
As to whether this is moral or just... that's a different argument. But this is having a chilling effect and many people that might otherwise want to play this game choosing otherwise.
I'm a big fan of net neutrality but the way to go about it is through competition not through government fiat.
If people that buy internet access always have access to several different options then any ISP that behaves badly will lose customers.
Right now we have cable and phone line monopolies. This is why we have a problem. Allow any company to run cable or phone lines so long as they pay a pole fee which is set by the local city or county.
That will mean more cable is run everywhere and competition will increase. Large cities will see the biggest rise. Small towns either might not see anything or they might start their own local ISPs.
In any case, that is how you solve this problem. Not with an edict from washington.
it doesn't exist for anyone... you think young lawyers or accountants are well treated?
Get real. They're worked like dogs. And you think having a law degree means you're assured a good income? You're lucky if you can get a job at all.
The point I'm making is that these professions are not paid for by the hour for young workers. They get a salary. That doesn't mean they don't work long hours. You could very well be spending most of your time at the lawfirm... that is in a 24 hour period over 50 percent of that could be at work.
So don't tell me that programmers are the only ones that have it bad. They aren't. The problem with programmers is not that they're worked hard. Being worked hard is a necessary evil. And it's only going to get worse as labor costs go up and the companies need to work employees harder to justify the expense.
The problem is rather that pay is by the hour rather then by the job itself.
We can make the above better but its going to take a lot of labor and tax reform. The cost of hiring and employing people keeps going up. And this is largely why wages have stagnated. Sure, the employee is making less but that doesn't mean the company is paying less. Add up the taxes, insurance, benefits, and red tape and they're paying more.
People at the bottom income bracket could be making twice their current income if we reformed these systems.
And this is also a large factor in why unemployment is rising.
It just is... And until this is fixed enjoy the outsourcing.
There are plenty of companies founded by an run by programmers. If you're good you can work for one of them.
If you're not then you're going to have to work harder. Deal with it.
So I have another program to find dragons and big feet. Will you fund my program? It's really cheap. I only want two million a year for it.
That's a tiny amount of money.
I don't care how little it is... it could be 1 penny. How much it is not relevant. It's not worth funding at any price.
If scientists want to donate their own personal time to work on it. And the radio telescopes have unused time... then have fun. I but the instant you want a portion of the national tax money to look for aliens the answer is no.
I'll fund NASA. I don't care if nasa gets a much larger budget. If the SETI budget covers everyone's lunches in NASA it will be better spent.
then it would be reasonable to fund it with donations as a charity.
Why do you need tax money?
I don't see the point of SETI... I don't believe there is anything for them to find.