How soon before these machines are shipping with Linux preinstalled?"
Guess what, companies that spend hundreds thousands of dollars on such boxes frankly don't give a fuck about Linux. Why would you want to run Linux on those anyways? Linux on non-x86 platforms lacks commercial application support. Want Oracle? Need JDK? Need this supernifty application server? Forget about it on Linux/Alpha. And as previous posters have mentioned, running Linux on SMP boxes with +4 CPUs is a waste of time and money. FreeBSD and Linux are good to run on your PCs but this is it. They don't come to compete with the midle range or high end RISC unix servers.
The config tested was $5500, but a base DS10 is supposed to be around $3500... maybe not too bad for a nice 64-bit box.;)"
Uh, $3500 is too much for a basic box
For about $2500 you can have SUN Ultra5/366Mhz UltrasparcIIi/128MB ram/8GB ide-7200rpm disk with a 17 inch monitor. The same combo will cost you only $1300 if you are a student.
The advantage of SUN's is that you can have Solaris on it (which I really like) and it has better application support than Linux on non-intel platforms (Linux on non-x86 platforms lacks most of the commercial/binary-only software you can have on intel)
The only thing that I see as a big disadvantage about SUN workstations is that the SUN compiler still has to be purchased (for like $3000), otherwise you are stuck with gcc again which just like in Alphas' case does not optimize very well.
If I was running a hardware company I'd support one or maybe two distributions at most. There are probably 10 major distributions. Are you kidding? The company would have to be proficient in all those distribs to provide a meningful support. Follow packaging tools in all of them, pay attention to all pitfals and idioticities present in each of those, follow updates of every distribution, know which version of which program, glibc, kernel, apache, samba, etc is installed in those distributions, etc.
I'd rather have them support just one distribution and do it right instead of having them support a dozen of dists and doing a sloppy job (or a good job at pretty high price probably).
As usuall, all of those latest packages will release -before- Debian 2.2 (which is frozen) does and only after that Debian 2.2 will release to ensure that we, the Debian users, are always runnunng previous versions of everything !:p
AMD compatible chipsets -always- had problems with AGP. This is a non-issue with Linux since the only 3D driver that works is 3DFX and it does not use AGP much.
Recently I have noticed that all "Ask Slashdot:" columns are about "I am going to write this paper about and I was wondering if <some stupid question>". Damn, do you fscking research yourself! Enough of this crap already! "Ask slashdot" was an interesting column for discussions on interesting technical topics, etc now it is becoming "Help me to do my homework coliumn". My $0.02
Bah, people who need that kind of power don't fool themselves with toys are buying -real- workstations such as SGI/MIPS, RS/6000, SUN/sparc or Compaq/Alpha.
GHZ have no meaning.
300mhz MIPS/R12000 has better FPU performance than any existing Intel CPU at any clock speed so far.
I agree mostly with you. But Linux on UltraSparc is not all that worthless. It has its own little niche. Some people prefer running it on their workstations. Consider that Debian and Mandrake for example, have a package management system that is light years ahead of Solaris stuff. Second, you don't need to compile any freeware, it is all there part of a distribution (gcc, GNOME, etc)
But yes, I wouldn't trust my UltraSparc server to Linux. First of all, -NO- commercial software is available on it. Finally, Linux/Intel or Sparc/Solaris is much more proven and stable because both have been around for a while.
How the TCP/IP performance on the Sparc ports compared to the Intel ports of Linux (I'm thinking about the Mindcraft benchmarks here... would the different hardware have made any difference?)
"Oh linux blows goats in this benchmark compared to NT, but wait. We could find a super big, super expensive ultra sparc box running linux, and then we might beat NT "
Is this what you are trying to say?
GNOME debs for the Debian/stable
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RedHat 6.2 - RSN
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· Score: 1
There are Debian packages for gnome, E, wmaker, etc See instructions on www.gnome.org
Enough with overclocking already. This isn't your $70 Celeron toy. When you get to work +$5.000 chips , you are free to overclock them but I doubt it even occurred to anyone to overclock their $9000 UltraSparc cpu or similar. Yep, overclocking is stupid. flame on..
Right, but you can't really use all of 3D capabilities of TNT ultra in Linux either. The glx drivers that nvidia released are still broke.
Also, the kind of video boards that use used in sun's grahpics workstations (read not U5) Such as Elite3D m6 are used for a real work not for games. I'd like to see install Elite3D board in your Linux box.
I tell you why I prefer using SOlaris/Sparc as opposed to Linux/X86 when building a distributed tightly integrated computing facility.
1. Linux NFS still blows goats. 2. Linux NIS+ support still blows goats 3. Solaris jumpstart installs are way better than redhat kickstart (it blows too) 4. You cannot boot the x86 machine off the network 5. With solaris/sparc. You never have to worry about hardware support. The OS will find it, detect, configure it.. I laugh at you all Linux zealots saying Linux is easy to install. Try to install Solaris on an UltraSparc, you will see what I am talking about 6. 3,4, and 5 mean Linux distributions lack support for completely unattended installs.
I admin such computing facilities (100s hosts) and supporting linux would be a nightmare because it was never designed for that. It is Ok as a stand- alone server or workstation though. But in our environment I prefer solaris.
Remember Sun's "Network is the computer" slogan? They weren't lying about that..
Re:Telnet is the only solution.
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SSH v. SRP
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Your post is totally off subject. You can use telnet -application- to acconect to any TCP port. When people say telnet is insecure the refer to the telnet -protocol-. You can even use telnet program to connect to the -ssh- port on some host and conduct all your transactions in a secure way if you could just encrypt and decrypt all the data in your head. No one is saying that the application should go away, but people who know about ssh and still use telnet for remote logins should be shot.
Uh whats wrong with communicator being built on Solaris 2.5.1 ? It is binary compatible with all current versions of solaris (2.6,7,8). If fact many vendost use Solaris 2.5.1 as their reference platform, since they are all upwards binary compatible it makes sense to build on 2.5.1 to make sure that folks that still run 2.5.1 or 2.6 have no problems with this software.
Same with linux. Are you claiming that linux programs compiled on 2.0.x systems won't run on 2.2.x systems? Glibc is a bigger issue. Sometimes glibc2.0 programs do not run correctly on glibc2.1 systems, but this is nature of linux. I doubt that commercial software vendors are thrilled at the idea of making new builds just because there a new incompatbile library every six months. Linux2.0glibc2.0 version works good enough for me.. my linux distribution is Linux 2.2.x/glibc2.0 based
You believe to the (MS sponsored) FUD from mindcraft study do you? What do you mean "does not scale"? Does not scale on big computer? Does not scale on small computer? Something else?
There are several TOP-500 linux based supercomputers (includeing some being used in NASA)
Also, someone from NASA has said before "If it does not come with source, this is not software". They want a good stable OS _with_ the source. They don't give a shit about "support". They are smart enough to tweak and fix whatever they need on their own.
NT reliability is a joke. I reboot my linux servers and workstations only to 1) Install new hardware. 2) Upgrade kernel. Try that on NT.
And there are companies behind Linux. SGI, RedHat, Linuxcare, Caldera, VAResearch, etc offer all kinds of support as long as your pocket is deep enough.
1. gnome-terminal != Linux 2. The sysadmins at your school are lazy. I have been running the latest stable Gnome (october gnome) for the last three months. It has not crashed on me yet.
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Guess what, companies that spend hundreds thousands of dollars on such boxes frankly don't give a fuck about Linux. Why would you want to run Linux on those anyways? Linux on non-x86 platforms lacks commercial application support. Want Oracle? Need JDK? Need this supernifty application server? Forget about it on Linux/Alpha. And as previous posters have mentioned, running Linux on SMP boxes with +4 CPUs is a waste of time and money. FreeBSD and Linux are good to run on your PCs but this is it. They don't come to compete with the midle range or high end RISC unix servers.
The config tested was $5500, but a base DS10 is supposed to be around $3500 ... maybe not too bad for a nice 64-bit box. ;)"
Uh, $3500 is too much for a basic box
For about $2500 you can have SUN Ultra5/366Mhz UltrasparcIIi/128MB ram/8GB ide-7200rpm disk with a 17 inch monitor.
The same combo will cost you only $1300 if you are a student.
The advantage of SUN's is that you can have Solaris on it (which I really like) and it has better application support than Linux on non-intel platforms (Linux on non-x86 platforms lacks most of the commercial/binary-only software you can have on intel)
The only thing that I see as a big disadvantage about SUN workstations is that the SUN compiler still has to be purchased (for like $3000), otherwise you are stuck with gcc again which just like in Alphas' case does not optimize very well.
If I was running a hardware company I'd support one or maybe two distributions at most. There are probably 10 major distributions. Are you kidding?
The company would have to be proficient in all those distribs to provide a meningful support. Follow packaging tools in all of them, pay attention to all pitfals and idioticities present in each of those, follow updates of every distribution, know which version of which program, glibc, kernel, apache, samba, etc is installed in those distributions, etc.
I'd rather have them support just one distribution and do it right instead of having them support a dozen of dists and doing a sloppy job (or a good job at pretty high price probably).
As usuall, all of those latest packages will release -before- Debian 2.2 (which is frozen) does and only after that Debian 2.2 will release to ensure that we, the Debian users, are always runnunng previous versions of everything ! :p
Nah, Solaris has this functionality built-in already. Just add the following in /etc/system:
set noexec_user_stack = 1
set noexec_user_stack_log = 1
This is not FUD.
AMD compatible chipsets -always- had problems with AGP. This is a non-issue with Linux since the only 3D driver that works is 3DFX and it does not use AGP much.
The article is NOT correct. Read the other article here. They are replacing a 4 CPU SUN E450,
...
with a 24 CPU IBM server.
Thats quite a typo. SUN E450 is a "workgroup" class server is 4 CPUs. E10000 is the high end SUN server with 64 CPU, etc
And of course whoever runs slashdot must be full of it if they think this is even a remotely interesting news to be posted here
So laris 2.5.1 used to run on powerpc
With 256KB RAM, this is clearly intended for the Workstation Market.
:p
Geez, nice workstation!
My nintendo has more than that!
Recently I have noticed that all "Ask Slashdot:" columns are about "I am going to write this paper about and I was wondering if <some stupid question>". Damn, do you fscking research yourself! Enough of this crap already! "Ask slashdot" was an interesting column for discussions on interesting technical topics, etc now it is becoming "Help me to do my homework coliumn". My $0.02
Bah, people who need that kind of power don't fool themselves with toys are buying -real- workstations such as SGI/MIPS, RS/6000, SUN/sparc or Compaq/Alpha.
GHZ have no meaning.
300mhz MIPS/R12000 has better FPU performance than any existing Intel CPU at any clock speed so far.
Who cares? Aren't there already dozens of regular IRC networks? Undernet, EFnet, Dalnet, Ircnet, openprojects, and probably a couple dozens more.
In which way NetBsd is more "industrial strength" that Linux (don't tell me about being "realy unix" and other crap).
Talk about Solaris, AIX, etc if you talk about "industrial strength". NetBSD runs only on sigle processor boxes right now, this is it.
You must be smoking crack.
In terms of modern hardware that is produced -today- (not 10 year old garbage like VAX or decstations) Linux supports at least as much as NetBSD.
The NetBSD for sparc64 is still in betas while the Linux port has been running on a wide range of ultra sparcs for a while now.
Linux also runs on SGI/MIPS, other mips, Alphas, ARM, PowerPC, M68K, and probably others (see www.linuxdoc.org for details).
Also linux, supports SMP on almost all platforams while NetBSD does do it not even on intel.
What do you mean by slow?
I am sitting in front of a +4 year old SparcStation4/110mhz/128mb ram running Solaris 2.6. It is not a screaming machine, but it is far from slow.
I agree mostly with you. But Linux on UltraSparc is not all that worthless. It has its own little niche. Some people prefer running it on their workstations. Consider that Debian and Mandrake for example, have a package management system that is light years ahead of Solaris stuff. Second, you don't need to compile any freeware, it is all there part of a distribution (gcc, GNOME, etc)
But yes, I wouldn't trust my UltraSparc server to Linux. First of all, -NO- commercial software is available on it. Finally, Linux/Intel or Sparc/Solaris is much more proven and stable because both have been around for a while.
How the TCP/IP performance on the Sparc ports compared to the Intel ports of Linux (I'm thinking about the Mindcraft benchmarks here... would the different hardware have made any difference?)
"Oh linux blows goats in this benchmark compared to NT, but wait. We could find a super big, super expensive ultra sparc box running linux, and then we might beat NT "
Is this what you are trying to say?
There are Debian packages for gnome, E, wmaker, etc
See instructions on www.gnome.org
I wanna overclock one of these bad boys ...
..
Enough with overclocking already. This isn't your $70 Celeron toy. When you get to work +$5.000 chips , you are free to overclock them but I doubt it even occurred to anyone to overclock their $9000 UltraSparc cpu or similar. Yep, overclocking is stupid. flame on
Right, but you can't really use all of 3D capabilities of TNT ultra in Linux either. The glx drivers that nvidia released are still broke.
Also, the kind of video boards that use used in sun's grahpics workstations (read not U5) Such as Elite3D m6 are used for a real work not for games. I'd like to see install Elite3D board in your Linux box.
I tell you why I prefer using SOlaris/Sparc as opposed to Linux/X86 when building a distributed tightly integrated computing facility.
..
1. Linux NFS still blows goats.
2. Linux NIS+ support still blows goats
3. Solaris jumpstart installs are way better than redhat kickstart (it blows too)
4. You cannot boot the x86 machine off the network
5. With solaris/sparc. You never have to worry about hardware support. The OS will find it, detect, configure it.. I laugh at you all Linux zealots saying Linux is easy to install. Try to install Solaris on an UltraSparc, you will see what I am talking about
6. 3,4, and 5 mean Linux distributions lack support for completely unattended installs.
I admin such computing facilities (100s hosts) and supporting linux would be a nightmare because it was never designed for that. It is Ok as a stand- alone server or workstation though. But in our environment I prefer solaris.
Remember Sun's "Network is the computer" slogan?
They weren't lying about that
Your post is totally off subject. You can use telnet -application- to acconect to any TCP port. When people say telnet is insecure the refer to the telnet -protocol-. You can even use telnet program to connect to the -ssh- port on some host and conduct all your transactions in a secure way if you could just encrypt and decrypt all the data in your head. No one is saying that the application should go away, but people who know about ssh and still use telnet for remote logins should be shot.
Uh whats wrong with communicator being built on Solaris 2.5.1 ? It is binary compatible with all current versions of solaris (2.6,7,8). If fact many vendost use Solaris 2.5.1 as their reference platform, since they are all upwards binary compatible it makes sense to build on 2.5.1 to make sure that folks that still run 2.5.1 or 2.6 have no problems with this software.
.. my linux distribution is Linux 2.2.x/glibc2.0 based
Same with linux. Are you claiming that linux programs compiled on 2.0.x systems won't run on
2.2.x systems? Glibc is a bigger issue. Sometimes glibc2.0 programs do not run correctly on glibc2.1 systems, but this is nature of linux. I doubt that commercial software vendors are thrilled at the idea of making new builds just because there a new incompatbile library every six months.
Linux2.0glibc2.0 version works good enough for me
You believe to the (MS sponsored) FUD from mindcraft study do you? What do you mean "does not scale"? Does not scale on big computer? Does not scale on small computer? Something else?
There are several TOP-500 linux based supercomputers (includeing some being used in NASA)
Also, someone from NASA has said before "If it does not come with source, this is not software". They want a good stable OS _with_ the source. They don't give a shit about "support". They are smart enough to tweak and fix whatever they need on their own.
NT reliability is a joke. I reboot my linux servers and workstations only to 1) Install new hardware. 2) Upgrade kernel. Try that on NT.
And there are companies behind Linux. SGI, RedHat, Linuxcare, Caldera, VAResearch, etc offer all kinds of support as long as your pocket is deep enough.
You are a (moron) troll and I tell you why:
1. gnome-terminal != Linux
2. The sysadmins at your school are lazy. I have been running the latest stable Gnome (october gnome) for the last three months. It has not crashed on me yet.