The fact of the matter is that in the common use of English, tomatoes are not fruits. So pray tell, if the common layman and the skilled chef alike believe tomatoes to be vegetables, why should they be anything but?
Why do layman call tomatoes fruit? Because the supreme court told them that tomatoes were fruit so they could collect more taxes. See Lawyer's Weekly for more details. It's an old flame, people have sued over these arguments.
Object oriented makes no sense in a functional language. If strongly typed, the operations allowed on a type are by definition coupled. The idea of "state" of an object is a based on Simula's original purpose, simulation. The fact that one takes an idea from another area, then adapts it, doesn't mean that it fits into it's original pupose. I.e., Taking the ideas of methods tied to type adding it with state and fitting them into an imperative structure, doesn't mean that one can take the result and fit it back into the strongly typed language. Proving that it doesn't fit back in, doesn't mean that the original conversion didn't happen. Also an imperative language embodies the idea of state at it's core, so pulling stronger data types into an imperative language will automatically add state.
The concept of a data type {set of values + set of operations on those values}, was derived primarily from research in lambda calculus. The only thing missing is state, i.e. object = {set of values + set of operations + set of state values}. Polymorphism is already allowed for in type theory. Inheritance is a logical expansion of relationships between objects.
object - data type = {set of state values}
data typing derives primarily from typed lambda calculus beginning in 1934.
Therefore, object oriented programming coming later (simula officially began in 1962, but research was really getting started around 1956) than functional programming and owes a certain ideological lineage to it's concepts.
One could argue that object oriented programming's concepts were discovered independently without any knowledge of data typing from functional research. But that would be a very weak position to defend. The founders of Simula actually mentioned that they were having problems with the weak typing of earlier languages.
It's all nice and everything to feel that object oriented was a concept that occured in a vacuum and that somehow makes it better, but in reality most ideas are based on previous ideas, which are based on previous ideas, etc, al. My original post was making a joke of the concept hammer being used one too many times.
Simula also helped research in data typing as well, so functional programming owes a certain debt to object oriented, for some really rough areas in the theory had to be solved for Simula to work. Simula was even more instrumental in the idea of having common libraries.
P.S. Use what ever language floats your boat. I don't care. I'm not advocating any.
PS Object Oriented is a concept adapted from functional programming languages, i.e. LISP.
This comment alone summarizes the posters[sic] knowledge of programming languages.:-)
Okay smartee pants. LISP was a functional language based on lambda calculus. Early versions had very weak typing. Once the concept of strong typing was introduced, the operations associated with a type formed a neat package. Thus any strongly typed language based on lambda calculus created nice associates between "types" and the allowed operations. Imperative programming language designers saw the obvious benefit of this association and came up with their own retro-fit of the concept into an imperative structure which has come to be known as "object-oriented". Lisp itself wasn't the progenitor of the idea, but the idea of implementing lambda calulus as a language was.
C++ has problems, yes; pretty unavoidable since it was the first real object oriented language.
This comment alone summarizes the posters knowledge of programming languages. For a better
understanding of C++, check it out on the Computer Languages History website
My reply: Cute, but it unfortunately does mean something. C++ has more features that are so easily misused (not abused), that Scott Meyers wrote 3 large volumes on the subject. Other languages have similar featuers, but not in near the quantity of C++. Java has been jokingly refered to as C++--++. The "--" refers to the stripping away of all the majority of the problems that Scott Meyers addresses in his books.
PS Object Oriented is a concept adapted from functional programming languages, i.e. LISP.
I recently encountered the driver hell problem with a modem on a computer my brother was using. I asked him how he used his computer, noted what he did and came up with a plan to install Linux. I asked him if he would use something "experimental" for his OS and he agreed.
A few weeks later, he calls me to tell how much easier his box is to use now. How everything does what he tells it, and he just loves it sooo much more. It hasn't once said "I detect new hardward" or rebooted. I tell him to now go and spread the word of Linux. He asks, "What's Linux?"
I explain that's it's an OS that's not Windows and has nothing to do with Bill Gates.
He replied, "It's NOT Windows?" in a shocked voice.
I suspect that if I had told him I wasn't installing Windows he wouldn't have agreed, but now he's sold on the goods and isn't turing back. I've gotten calls from my other relatives asking "What is this Linux thing we're hearing about, and can we get one."
The folks at the NSA use VMWare for this purpose (they do have a special version with additional security features).
How do you know this?
It's known that the NSA uses VMWare, but they're
very tight lipped about how. Also if a VMWare image is
sitting on a disk, that's on an OS that's on the network.
Doesn't that make the image just as vunerable? I guess
one could encrypt it, but still I think the original idea of
a KVM is far more secure. If it's not on the net, or a
completely private net with no outside connection, then
it can only be pilfered by sneaker net.
Already been done with some unsurprising results. The BMW 7 series runs on Windows. It has already trapped the Thai finance minister inside his car. Read all about it in the Taipei Times.
Don't believe M$ is behind it? Then you didn't read a previous post which pointed to this article which points out the string of holding corporations pointing to Mrs Gates.
Writing doesn't count. I don't know about today, but when I was in school it was a one hour seminar that required the use of slides. There was no real study of communication. Just how good you looked as multi-colored slides rolled by behind you.
What I'm talking about is a real course. With problems, where the engineers are given piles of scribbled data and told to present an argument for some position.
Maybe they have classes like this today, but fifteen years ago, they sure didn't.
Both space shuttle disasters have a common thread: The inability of an engineer to communicate. In the first disaster, NASA was faxed a "don't launch" from some rocket engineers with pages and pages off scribbled supporting data in random order. NASA couldn't make sense of the scribblings, and twisted a few arms and got a "go ahead and launch but don't blame us" from the rocket engineers. We all know what happened.
The second disaster, engineers noticed the debris and said that this needed immediate investigation--it could lead to a crash. Once again, upper management didn't believe them or their supporting data.
Failure to communicate both times. Communication classes should be required in Engineering for accredidation.
For years we have been inundated with stories of the secret power of blackhat hackers by the "unbiased" media. A lot of these uber-powerful computer hackers were rumored to be Linux zealots. Now McBride has the Linux community pissed at him.
How come he hasn't had?
His bank account deleted
Numerous credit card applications in his name
His utilities shut off
His car and house repossed
Placed on the FBI watch list for being a terrorist
I'll tell you why, those stories about black hat hackers were myths, and I submit this as evidence.
You've got all of these guys and it looks like the whole world is coming against SCO.
That's my favorite part. This is actually the truth. When you pick a fight with the world (of software), then it will certainly look like the whole world is coming after you. It'll look even worse when they line you up on the wall.
The next part of this however is even more enlightening.
It's really IBM that has wired in all of these relationships," he said. "That's why it looks like they're sitting back and not doing anything. It's us fighting a whole bunch of people that they put on the stage."
From Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: para*noia
1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
Paranoia involves an overinflate value of self worth. Does that sound like McBride and his public announcements? So maybe it isn't a pump and dump scheme after all, maybe we're looking at a group of insane individuals in charge of a company.
This is exactly my point. No computers, no rocket science or psychic powers were needed. Just $$$ as motivation for tracking down a bad debt. If the government wants to track homeless, it's really just needs to offer enough money as motivation and no fancy computer system is really needed. The trackers will come up with their own system.
It wasn't a 7/11, but a park. And I have a strong suspicion who helped tracked me down, but that's essentially what I think happened.
Now what the government proposes is yet another large mindless system. No incentive or motivation for those administering it. Most likely will be a spectacular failure, and cost a lot of tax payer money.
In the end one asks the question of what does this gain us? Helps the war on terror? Would it have stop the sniper attacks? None of these goals would be satisfied, so why waste a dime?
Year ago I was homeless for a period of time, due to the fact that I was a teenager, my parents were dead and life is harsh. I fought my way back into society against it's better wishes.
I actually managed to put my first year of college on credit. Then they figured out I was a bum without a job. Later I paid it back, got scholarships and managed to finish. It wasn't easy, but all this sob story has a point and it ain't for sympathy.
I was hanging out in a particular location on a regular basis. I'm walking along and a payphone rings. Being bored and curious, I answer it. It was a bill collector! They had tracked me down to a payphone I frequently passed. Now tell me the government needs a new system, just give the homeless a credit card good for a nice sized bad debt. The bill collectors will track them for the government, no new system needed.
Ahh contrair, you assume hidden variables young grasshopper. Even Einstein had trouble believing that quantum physics depended on randomness. The hidden variable theory has been attacked from many angles, and noone has been able to prove yet that there are hidden variables, in fact there is much evidence that quantum mechnics depends on randomness.
Slashdot Mirror
The fact of the matter is that in the common use of English, tomatoes are not fruits. So pray tell, if the common layman and the skilled chef alike believe tomatoes to be vegetables, why should they be anything but?
Why do layman call tomatoes fruit? Because the supreme court told them that tomatoes were fruit so they could collect more taxes. See Lawyer's Weekly for more details. It's an old flame, people have sued over these arguments.
My eyes went cross for a minute and I read, "Advanced .NET rooting". I thought, "great, another round of critical patches to install this week".
Analog transmission stops in 2006.
The US's metric conversion act of 1975 stated that the US would be fully converted to metric by 1992. Right.
That's not what I said. See other posts.
Object oriented makes no sense in a functional language. If strongly typed, the operations allowed on a type are by definition coupled. The idea of "state" of an object is a based on Simula's original purpose, simulation. The fact that one takes an idea from another area, then adapts it, doesn't mean that it fits into it's original pupose. I.e., Taking the ideas of methods tied to type adding it with state and fitting them into an imperative structure, doesn't mean that one can take the result and fit it back into the strongly typed language. Proving that it doesn't fit back in, doesn't mean that the original conversion didn't happen. Also an imperative language embodies the idea of state at it's core, so pulling stronger data types into an imperative language will automatically add state.
The concept of a data type {set of values + set of operations on those values}, was derived primarily from research in lambda calculus. The only thing missing is state, i.e. object = {set of values + set of operations + set of state values}. Polymorphism is already allowed for in type theory. Inheritance is a logical expansion of relationships between objects.
object - data type = {set of state values}
data typing derives primarily from typed lambda calculus beginning in 1934.
Therefore, object oriented programming coming later (simula officially began in 1962, but research was really getting started around 1956) than functional programming and owes a certain ideological lineage to it's concepts.
One could argue that object oriented programming's concepts were discovered independently without any knowledge of data typing from functional research. But that would be a very weak position to defend. The founders of Simula actually mentioned that they were having problems with the weak typing of earlier languages.
It's all nice and everything to feel that object oriented was a concept that occured in a vacuum and that somehow makes it better, but in reality most ideas are based on previous ideas, which are based on previous ideas, etc, al. My original post was making a joke of the concept hammer being used one too many times.
Simula also helped research in data typing as well, so functional programming owes a certain debt to object oriented, for some really rough areas in the theory had to be solved for Simula to work. Simula was even more instrumental in the idea of having common libraries.
P.S. Use what ever language floats your boat. I don't care. I'm not advocating any.
PS Object Oriented is a concept adapted from functional programming languages, i.e. LISP.
This comment alone summarizes the posters[sic] knowledge of programming languages. :-)
Okay smartee pants. LISP was a functional language based on lambda calculus. Early versions had very weak typing. Once the concept of strong typing was introduced, the operations associated with a type formed a neat package. Thus any strongly typed language based on lambda calculus created nice associates between "types" and the allowed operations. Imperative programming language designers saw the obvious benefit of this association and came up with their own retro-fit of the concept into an imperative structure which has come to be known as "object-oriented". Lisp itself wasn't the progenitor of the idea, but the idea of implementing lambda calulus as a language was.
:-P
C++ has problems, yes; pretty unavoidable since it was the first real object oriented language.
This comment alone summarizes the posters knowledge of programming languages. For a better understanding of C++, check it out on the Computer Languages History website
My reply: Cute, but it unfortunately does mean something. C++ has more features that are so easily misused (not abused), that Scott Meyers wrote 3 large volumes on the subject. Other languages have similar featuers, but not in near the quantity of C++. Java has been jokingly refered to as C++--++. The "--" refers to the stripping away of all the majority of the problems that Scott Meyers addresses in his books.
PS Object Oriented is a concept adapted from functional programming languages, i.e. LISP.
Any language that allows for someone making a living pointing out everything one shouldn't do needs more than a face-lift.
Notice the last entry in sports bras. Those engineers have a partially clothed women in the room and their looking at their wires and scope!
Insert joke about engineers getting a feel here
I recently encountered the driver hell problem with a modem on a computer my brother was using. I asked him how he used his computer, noted what he did and came up with a plan to install Linux. I asked him if he would use something "experimental" for his OS and he agreed.
A few weeks later, he calls me to tell how much easier his box is to use now. How everything does what he tells it, and he just loves it sooo much more. It hasn't once said "I detect new hardward" or rebooted. I tell him to now go and spread the word of Linux. He asks, "What's Linux?"
I explain that's it's an OS that's not Windows and has nothing to do with Bill Gates.
He replied, "It's NOT Windows?" in a shocked voice.
I suspect that if I had told him I wasn't installing Windows he wouldn't have agreed, but now he's sold on the goods and isn't turing back. I've gotten calls from my other relatives asking "What is this Linux thing we're hearing about, and can we get one."
Eat your heart out Bill. Your day is coming.
Obviously it does matter to someone besides nerds if there's been a class action lawsuit over the matter.
I think the nerd solution would be to whine about how everyone who doesn't know the difference doesn't deserve to use a computer.
The folks at the NSA use VMWare for this purpose (they do have a special version with additional security features).
How do you know this?
It's known that the NSA uses VMWare, but they're very tight lipped about how. Also if a VMWare image is sitting on a disk, that's on an OS that's on the network. Doesn't that make the image just as vunerable? I guess one could encrypt it, but still I think the original idea of a KVM is far more secure. If it's not on the net, or a completely private net with no outside connection, then it can only be pilfered by sneaker net.
We here have reviewed you claims and have come to the following conclusions:
Huh, want to waste some SCO resources. Flood them with registrations and then nobody show. Now that would be embarrassing.
What next? Windows running cars?
Already been done with some unsurprising results. The BMW 7 series runs on Windows. It has already trapped the Thai finance minister inside his car. Read all about it in the Taipei Times.
When was the last time Bill said he would play fair and didn't? When will business wake up?
Don't believe M$ is behind it? Then you didn't read a previous post which pointed to this article which points out the string of holding corporations pointing to Mrs Gates.
Writing doesn't count. I don't know about today, but when I was in school it was a one hour seminar that required the use of slides. There was no real study of communication. Just how good you looked as multi-colored slides rolled by behind you.
What I'm talking about is a real course. With problems, where the engineers are given piles of scribbled data and told to present an argument for some position.
Maybe they have classes like this today, but fifteen years ago, they sure didn't.
Both space shuttle disasters have a common thread: The inability of an engineer to communicate. In the first disaster, NASA was faxed a "don't launch" from some rocket engineers with pages and pages off scribbled supporting data in random order. NASA couldn't make sense of the scribblings, and twisted a few arms and got a "go ahead and launch but don't blame us" from the rocket engineers. We all know what happened.
The second disaster, engineers noticed the debris and said that this needed immediate investigation--it could lead to a crash. Once again, upper management didn't believe them or their supporting data.
Failure to communicate both times. Communication classes should be required in Engineering for accredidation.
For years we have been inundated with stories of the secret power of blackhat hackers by the "unbiased" media. A lot of these uber-powerful computer hackers were rumored to be Linux zealots. Now McBride has the Linux community pissed at him.
How come he hasn't had?
I'll tell you why, those stories about black hat hackers were myths, and I submit this as evidence.
You've got all of these guys and it looks like the whole world is coming against SCO.
That's my favorite part. This is actually the truth. When you pick a fight with the world (of software), then it will certainly look like the whole world is coming after you. It'll look even worse when they line you up on the wall.
The next part of this however is even more enlightening.
It's really IBM that has wired in all of these relationships," he said. "That's why it looks like they're sitting back and not doing anything. It's us fighting a whole bunch of people that they put on the stage."
From Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: para*noia
1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
Paranoia involves an overinflate value of self worth. Does that sound like McBride and his public announcements? So maybe it isn't a pump and dump scheme after all, maybe we're looking at a group of insane individuals in charge of a company.
Paranoia can result from smoking too much crack.
This is exactly my point. No computers, no rocket science or psychic powers were needed. Just $$$ as motivation for tracking down a bad debt. If the government wants to track homeless, it's really just needs to offer enough money as motivation and no fancy computer system is really needed. The trackers will come up with their own system.
It wasn't a 7/11, but a park. And I have a strong suspicion who helped tracked me down, but that's essentially what I think happened.
Now what the government proposes is yet another large mindless system. No incentive or motivation for those administering it. Most likely will be a spectacular failure, and cost a lot of tax payer money.
In the end one asks the question of what does this gain us? Helps the war on terror? Would it have stop the sniper attacks? None of these goals would be satisfied, so why waste a dime?
Year ago I was homeless for a period of time, due to the fact that I was a teenager, my parents were dead and life is harsh. I fought my way back into society against it's better wishes.
I actually managed to put my first year of college on credit. Then they figured out I was a bum without a job. Later I paid it back, got scholarships and managed to finish. It wasn't easy, but all this sob story has a point and it ain't for sympathy.
I was hanging out in a particular location on a regular basis. I'm walking along and a payphone rings. Being bored and curious, I answer it. It was a bill collector! They had tracked me down to a payphone I frequently passed. Now tell me the government needs a new system, just give the homeless a credit card good for a nice sized bad debt. The bill collectors will track them for the government, no new system needed.
Yes, but I never said I could spell. :-)
Ahh contrair, you assume hidden variables young grasshopper. Even Einstein had trouble believing that quantum physics depended on randomness. The hidden variable theory has been attacked from many angles, and noone has been able to prove yet that there are hidden variables, in fact there is much evidence that quantum mechnics depends on randomness.