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Gov't Proposes Massive Homeless Tracking System
Chris Hoofnagle writes "The Dept. of Housing and Urban Development is proposing a massive system of tracking for homeless people and others who are served by shelters and care centers. The system will track people by their SSN, and will collect health (HIV, pregnancy) and mental information. Secret Service and national security agents can gain access to the database by just asking for it! EPIC has released a fact sheet on HMIS, and the public can comment on the guidelines until September 22, 2003, but no electronic comments are being accepted."
WozNet suppositories for everybody on Capitol Hill!
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
Big Brother?
Couldn't this money be spent in a better way? Better shelters, lower income housing, etc. We don't need to track them. We need to help remotivate them, and get them back into society.
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
It's easy to talk about homeless people in online forums because they won't notice what we're writing! Not that I am in favor of tagging the homeless. I just find it humorous, like making fun of Amish people on TV.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
This would lend credence to that San Francisco plan to issue the homeless credit card readers so that people without cash could still donate.
and perhaps imprint on all those who don't resist a number.
Makes you wonder what Revelations the department of Home Security will find.
A. Rightmann
Now that guy on the corner wil be right about the government tracking him.
I mean, seriously, a lot of these people already wont go into treatment as it is, why give them one more reson not to.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Now if only we could track spammers this way.
I can see the argument for doing this, however I also know this would lead to privacy issues, and abuse by various and sundry gov't agencies. It's sort of like having a briefcase full of someone else's money and promising not to go shopping.
Later
Entities that provide services would collect their names, Social Security Numbers, dates of birth, race, gender, health status (including HIV, pregnancy, and domestic violence)
Wouldn't domestic violence require a domicile? Or do they mean the number of times they're kicked while sleeping on a grating?
Esteem isn't a zero sum game
I wonder when they'll start making auto manufacturers put tracking devices into cars so they can track us.. =)
Just when you make it idiotproof, some idiot builds a better idiot.
So, the bottom line here is if you want government benefits you have to give up some privacy in order to get them. Why don't we just ear-tag the homeless with RFID's and track their migration like an endangered species?
There are a significant portion of the hard-core homeless that will simply stay off-grid, that's why they're homeless in the first place, they decline to participate. Now, these people won't be able to stay anonymous and get fed or get medical care from the government. My suspicion is that the govt. knows this well and is anticipating a reduction in cost while being able to issue press releases about the decline in the numbers of homeless as they stop coming to the clinics and kitchens.
This is analogous to the reports in the declining unemployment rate reflected in lower numbers of people collecting unemployment insurance. It doesn't count the people that have given up, or have turned to the black/gray market for a living.
The best way to do is to be.
Oh wait, this is the USA.
After all, why do you need rights if you don't even have a house?
I think they should extend this to people in condos, mobile homes, or with insufficient equity.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
You mean to tell me that my government can afford to implement a massive tracking system for homeless people, but always seems to leave someone else holding the bag when it come to rehabilitating / helping them out?
"Me fail English, that's unpossible." --Ralphie
Now with the homeless being tracked, we cant shoot them for sport anymore!
Oh wait, you didnt *wink wink* hear that...
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
I hope that no one is actually considering this in any sort of "real" sense. Besides, is homelessness a temporary or permanent thing? Would you be opening these accounts to track on every kid that ran away and stopped by a soup kitchen for some food, or only the "terminally homeless"? Also, how do they plan on tieing an individaul to an account? I sincerely doubt that the majority of homeless people are going to give government officials their truthful name or SSN. Maybe we can implant them with chips the same way zoologists track endangered species or farmers track cattle!
---
Take it sleazy,
-The Shockmaster
....to hunt them all!!! BWA HA HA *Grabs a shotgun*
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
And how long before they start tracking everyone in this way? Sure, it seems okay when you apply it to faceless masses of homeless people, but soon they'll be tracking all of us like this.
I'd imagine a large percentage of homeless people don't. What if they lie about the information they give? Is it going to be mandatory to show some kind of ID?
Plus it's really good practice for later with potential future enemy combatants (those who don't vote correctly, express non-patriotic views, etc.)
Just because some of us don't have money and houses, doesn't mean that they don't have the right to their own lives without government tracking.
John Ashcroft, you cocksucking voyeur, mind your own business.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Fine with me. So long as you also provide the list to Habitat for Humanity
While I understand how Privacy Advocates might go to arms over this, I think there are benefits to the people who are tracked.
As I recall, there have been instances in the past where mentally handicapped have been confused by cops as criminals and shot or wrongly imprisoned. To be able to determine someone as mentally handicapped would be beneficial as the person may not him/herself be able to notify the officer he/she has a problem. Also, this would help hospitals treat patients they have never seen before, as it could assist them in identifying a mentally ill person that needs a specific form of medication.
But I guess you could say that the risks outweigh the benefits, and you are possibly correct.
Well, it's good to want things like this, but I don't think it will really happen. Homeless people tend to be trasients, which means they're going to be hard to track. Additionally, most don't use legal names (preferring assumed names and nicknames), and may invent social security numbers. Others will be illegal immigrants who won't appear in any other record.
Why can't we take the collective ingenuity that it would take to build a privacy invading system like this and bend it towards helping these people rather than tracking them? By helping them, there'd be fewer to track!
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
I don't miss much about Christianity, but the "no questions asked" help for the destitute is sorely lacking today.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
Think of all the money we'll save in mental institutions letting these guys we THOUGHT were nuts back out...
And once this is in place, you're next.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
That's it. I'm moving to Canada.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
But I wonder -- if Linux is used to program these ear tags, will Darl McBride own the entire homeless population?
He could form an army! Oh no!
(Good for SCOX stock price, bad for us.)
What if the governement makes all this information to spammers and direct-mailers?
pi = 3.141592653589793helpimtrappedinauniversefactory7
Careful. Some of them might have laptops.
"Entities that provide services would collect their names, Social Security Numbers, dates of birth, race, gender, health status (including HIV, pregnancy, and domestic violence), veteran status, and income information."
This sounds way too invasive. It concerns me because once things like this are manditory for homeless people (it sounds like this system is moving that direction), then it will slowly be introduced to the masses.
Start with the outcasts of society as to make a quiet entrance. Then work your way up.
I don't like it.
He quickly ran off... I was still in shock and not sure if I should chase him down, let alone know what to do with him once caught, but now I can track him down and do the same to his shopping cart.
Sweet revenge!
Secret Service and national security agents can gain access to the database by just asking for it!
I wasn't aware that (homeless people == terrorists)
Why not use this money than to do something productive - like provide affordable housing, psychological counselling and medical care for them?
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
I can save them lots of time and money, once unemployed and homeless, cut off from our broadband connections and linux boxen we will all migrate to the nearest adult bookstore where we squander our last few dollars on pR0n!
Serious note though, worst idea ever. This wreaks of a pilot program to chip all of us. Why do I suddenly feel like making an anonymous cash donation to the local ACLU chapter? Where's my disguise kit???
So, the bottom line here is if you want government benefits you have to give up some privacy in order to get them. Why don't we just ear-tag the homeless with RFID's and track their migration like an endangered species?
Sounds like a helluva good idea to me. Want to keep your "privacy"? Stop sucking the public tit.
I thought most homeless were trying to live under the radar. Have no one to answer to and no one to bother them. Make no money, pay no taxes.
The Dept. of Housing and Urban Development is proposing a massive system of tracking for homeless people and others
They're not going to let this go away. This is just ANOTHER back-door version of TIA. We're going to see it introduced, again and again, under various disguises until they get it implemented. You can expect to see tracking systems suggested for the homeless, pedophiles, drug dealers, spouse abusers, bail-jumpers, tax evaders, etc etc and so on and so on, (each one being some particular organizations "most wanted") until it's actually implemented. And like stone soup, once it's in place, it will be "upgraded" to include everything that anybody ever wanted.
To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
Wouldn't it be an easier solution to kill them all?
right, as opposed to all the alternative countries that you know of that give away housing? name one! btw, it's us taxpayers that flip the bill for homeless programs, so, I think it's a small price to pay for valuble research that could be gained from this.
Congress has indicated that jurisdictions should be collecting an array of data on homelessness, including unduplicated counts, use of services and the effectiveness of the local homeless assistance system. HUD has been directed by Congress to work with jurisdictions toward this end and be able to analyze local homeless data by 2004.
This is about assessing the actual problem of homelessness with some accuracy, so they can find a solution. The problem is noone knows how many there are that are homeless. Is that kid with the squeegee looking for handouts homeless, or some suburban brat trying to make some easy money? (I personally know middle class douchebags who did just that).
EPIC's writeup puts the whole "individual tracking" spin onto it. The troublesome homeless are already individually tracked in a sense, the local cops already know their names and disorders and whatnot. This is HUD trying to get an idea how many people are homeless, for how long, and where, by way of a Congressional order.
You cant attempt to solve the problem without defining it first.
Ie; most of the homeless funding these days gets concentrated in big urban centers. But there are homeless folks in every little podunk town from coast to coast who are ignored, because Mayberry has no soup kitchen.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
The sourcefoege site can be found here: here
A very updated version of the demo can be found here.
Use the login/password 'dorytildon' and 'droppingblue'
Like any tool, HMIS systems can be used for good or ill. Many grass roots, homeless advocates have pushed for the implementation of HMIS systems in thier communities, because they can significantly improve the services delivered to homeless persons, while honoring thir privacy. The motivations of HUD requiring this HMIS implementations may not match the advocates, but that does not mean HMIS's are inherently bad.
Why don't we just ear-tag the homeless with RFID's and track their migration like an endangered species?
That's what I was going to suggest. They could start a tag-and-release program; let the public hunt down and "register" the homeless. Sort of like an alternative to deer hunting season.
But we're homeless and we can't afford it. If we had money, we wouldn't be using crappy Linux in the first place.
This is one of the few forms of government monitoring I'd actually be in favor of.
A large percentage of homeless people are, in fact, mentally ill. Having the government aware of their whereabouts is the least of their problems. And having some historical data available on them could be an aid to helping them; how effectively could you respond to someone off the street if you have no data or contextual indicators on their state or condition? I think the argument can also be made that if someone wants to avail themselves of free support, making note of information on them can be considered part of the bargain. Once their situation improves, the tracking stops, if the source of the data are the shelters and care centers. Dealing with mental illness is profoundly difficult even with the best information available.
(And I do have some very-near-aquaintance, personal experience with this, so factor that into my comment as you like...)
~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
The prodicuers of bum-fights could easily track new fighters for their videos this way!!!!!
Honestly, what point would there be in tracking the homeless? It's not like they're migratory birds and their migration patterns signify ecological change or anything.
The only real point to this would be if the feds assigned some arbitrary funding amount to help each homeless person and then used the tracking system to route part of that funding to an agency in their vicinity. Even then, it would seem more reasonable to just take a count of the homeless people in a given area and base federal funding on that number.
If the feds believe there's some sort of terrorist threat hiding among the homeless, why haven't we heard about it before now? And it seems unlikely that a hardcore terrorist would go to ground in the homeless community, where pushing a bomb in a shopping cart would be more conspicuous than keeping it in a closet somewhere.
It just seems like pork to me. Somewhere, some Undersecretary of the Interior has a Rain Man kid who feels compelled to catalog everything in his house, and this program has been developed solely to give him constructive work to do.
I knew it all along. Finally the gubment has wised up and is starting to keep an eye on these evil doers.
In any case, the next time you see some bum yaking a leak under a bridge be sure to call John Ashcroft ASAP and let him know about that terrorist bastard pissing on America.
Homeless people are a renewable source of energy.
"Comedy's a dead art form. Now tragedy, that's funny."
C'mon...the SSN thing alone is nuts. First off...if I went homeless, I'm doing it because I'm broke, destitute, and can't function in society (either by choice or forced) anymore. I'm NOT going to give out my SSN to be tracked. Take my student loans and debts and choke on them while I disappear in my meager existence. Second, what if I simply don't have one or don't remember it? THEN what do we do? Seriously? I could be an illegal alien, never got one...who knows.
And then the other issues. Like I want to stand in line and get my blood drawn for HIV tests and such? I just want food and shelter damnit.
What is this for? Who thought it was a good idea? And just WHAT is the good idea? Tracking? Tracking for what?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
By having them push giant wheels to turn generators to keep the next backout from happening! C'mon. It's not a hard job -- anybody can do it!
_____________________
Not to be coy, but why do they want this data? I want specifics of what they plan to do. What decisions are going to be made on the data? I can think of several possible reasons that one might give, some good, some evil. Unfortunately, I bet none of those reasons are correct. I really suspect that this proposal is a result of the typical beaurocratic line of thought: "We don't know what to do about the problem, so we will collect data that nobody has asked for. In this way, it will look like we are doing something."
So I guess that means that the ejercated people won't bother responding, because they don't know how to right any more, and the homeless ones won't know about it till it's too late anyway. Gets it through easy enough. Next we can start on the blacks and women - hey let's put the next law through /. - It's only read by white men!
The State of America is just that - a state.
But I wore the juice
There are a significant portion of the hard-core homeless that will simply stay off-grid, that's why they're homeless in the first place, they decline to participate.
Dead right. And despite the fact we call it paranoia, slashdot paranoia is absolutely nothing compared to real paranoia. I have a paranoid schizophrenic aunt, and for the implication of every program like this, there's a very real chance she'd risk starvation before going to social services agencies.
Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
I hope this information - or at least general statistics about it rather than specific names - will be made available to the various homeless support groups out there. After all, people have to sit up and take notice when definite statistics on homeless deaths and the number of people living on the streets can be produced. Assuming, of course, what qualifies someone as 'homeless' doesn't get redefined by those producing the statistics before they get released to pressure groups and the like.
My question is how do they REALLY expect to track most of these people? A lot of homeless people are renoun for their absolute need to "get away" and to not fit in with society anymore. Good luck getting their SSN when they check into a shelter somewhere in NYC. Sure, there's tons of others who are just down on their luck and will do anything for a warm meal and a place to sleep. But there's still the group of people who are struck by mental illness, and who will NOT buy into this.
Not that I'm speaking from experience or anything. Just coming from some observations I've had.
"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned for SEGA. ..."
One of the benefits of a system like this will be that the government agencies that give money or care to the homeless will not have to worry about people coming in under five different names to collect their benefits. I'm a developer for the city of SF and worked on the Care Not Cash system after it was voted in. One of the highlights was creating a fingerprinting system to stop homeless people from abusing the system like this. Privacy advocates went nuts, but the bottom line was to stop the abuse. It saves money and gives money to the people who need it in the long run.
I'll believe it when I see it.
Dude, don't SHOOT them - you might damage the organs! We'll need those later...
You're exactly right, and I think it's worth taking a long, hard look at just *why* our government feels a need to keep tabs on where its citizens are.
The "standard" line of reasoning basically says they want your current address because they need to be able to bill you for their services (income tax).
If, however, you're unemployed and don't have a physical address, you're by definition not a taxable citizen. Therefore, any "tracking" the govt. wants to do to these folks is for their own information-gathering purposes - and doesn't seem necessary to me at all.
As you pointed out, there's also the (very likely) ulterior motive of trying to skew the statistics in their favor, while saving money on paying for care for folks insisting on remaining anonymous.
As for the unemployment rate statistics, they're not really useful as anything more than a relative indicator of economic health. Consider this, though. Even those who turned to the "black or grey market" to scrape out a living are aiding the economy. They're providing goods or services (however questionably legal), and collecting money in exchange for those goods/services. Therefore, they cause others to spend some of their cash, which gives them incentive to keep working to earn more money to replace what was spent. The biggest thing that kills the economy is stagnation. The folks who have money are afraid to spend it, so the folks who don't have it find it very hard to get it.
Wait until this subject appears on the Van Impe Ministries infomercial (yes, I said *infomercial* since they sell their videotapes on the program)...they'll have a field day with this. And somehow it'll be tied with Spanish King Carlos because they claim he is the Antichrist...or was it Milosovich...or bin Laden...maybe that was last week's episode. I swear, a *bobblehead* is smarter than that minister's wife who co-hosts the program...I laughed so hard when she mispronouced "kalif" (sic) in regards to bin Laden. She pronounced it *CAL-IF*... It was as bad as Avril mispronouncing David Bowie's name...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
If this wasn't the same administration that's given us John Ashcroft and the PATRIOT act, I would be nearly certain this topic was somebody's idea of a joke...
Twenties Retirement
Are there any current impartial studies examining the cost of fraud versus the cost of preventing fraud? They should look at just the bottom line since arguments of eroding civil liberties and invasions of privacy are seemingly lost on the present administration even though they are without a doubt the greatest cost. It might be enlightening...
Perhaps they can use these
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy!
This guy openly states that he thinks this is a good idea. How is this a troll?
Wait, I have the answer. It is against the party line here on Slashdot. Anyone who thinks tracking anything is obviously trolling.
New moderator rules:
There will be no difference of opinion here on Slashdot. To become a moderator, you must become deeply familiar with the doctorine that Slashdot pushes. You must post pro-Slashdot-ideology to a number of stories. You're posts will be reviewed by those who have been deemed trustworthy. Once you have proven yourself acceptable, you will be given moderator access. At that point, you should mod down those with different opinions, and mod up those who push our agenda. If you are caught in violation, moderator access will be permanently removed.
Yep, mod me troll, I am prepared. However, I am sick of this and am taking an open stand.
-- Fighting mediocrity one bad post at a time.
Here's a thought:
Work out the budget for the program, then instead use that money to feed and house them.
They can't afford justice, so what does it matter?
But that's the truth.
I think you're confused. You may have the right to privacy (which is probably best interpreted as the right to be let alone in your affairs), but who ever said that you have the right to anonymity? Homeless people are not even asserting the right merely to be let alone -- they are affirmatively asking for help from the government. So, why should they not be documented, just like all other citizens?
Personally, if our tax money is being used to help the homeless (which I do not oppose), I wouldn't mind knowing where that money is going, how many people are benefiting, and how it's working out.
This "feature" is already available in many cars and as a neat little twist, marketing has managed to get the customer to pay extra for it. In American cars it is called OnStar, a service for safety and convenience. It is also a service that tracks you.
Also, for those that didn't know it, you don't have to pay for the service in order for them to track you. Once itr is installed in the vehicle you are being tracked.
Would this count as a distributed (err, mobile) energy grid when you consider the article from last month about using turkey stomachs to power fuel cells? I seem to recall a Slashdotter predicting a rapid decline in America's homeless population when those generators hit the market...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
I tried helping a homeless Vietnam Vet named Ben. He wanted to see his family, whom he has not seen in 8 years. We were unable to track down his family. Ben was addicted to alcohol, and was missing a leg, from diabetes, a few years after the war.
His family was looking for him too, a lady called the shelter looking for her father. Unfortunately, we came to the shelter about a day later, and she never called back.
Such a tracking system would probably have reunited Ben with his family.
What would one use as bait, a coupla 40's or pure-grain?
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
So, we can't track criminals, because of Constitutional rights, but homeless people are way too dangerous to let loose. I'd rather have some guy sleeping in a box in my yard than know my next door neighbor is a sex offender, but that's just me.
---
Lousy rotten karmic retribution.
They want to Track ...
Bill Gates, McBride, and Boise in the near futre?
Don't Tread on OpenSource
woo!
umm...here is a tip...you are unemployed if you are getting benifits because you are trying to find work.
if you do not seek out a job, then you are not unemployed. if what you claim as unemployed were true, then house parents would be considered in the unemployed bracket because they do not work for a 3rd party.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
In other news the chocolate ration has been raised to 25 grammes!
-
Systems Administrators: We read the manual so you don't have to.
>It doesn't count the people that have given up, or
>have turned to the black/gray market for a living.
Or whose benefits have run out.
-Chris
-- This sig is only a test. If this were a real sig it would say something witty. --
By the same argument, I'm sure you'd welcome the government tracking you, in case you had an accident crossing the road and lost your memory. They could then take you home so your loving family could take care of you, arrange the various medical benefits (because they already know what you're entitled to), notify your employer of your changed employment status, cancel any appointments with your friends (because they know your typical schedule... no golf today!), and notify your insurance company of your changed medical condition. All wonderful things, I'm sure you'll agree.
It's easy to say "sure I can see the benefits for X", when X is someone else. If you don't like the idea of it happening to you, why would X like it happening to them ? Not owning a home, being poor, and not being 100% compus mentus do not (in any civilised society) deprive you of the basic freedoms.
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
This smells of a backdoor method of introducing govt monitoring of the general population. Essentially, they're creating an artificial problem, then offering an Orwellian solution to solve it. What better method of introducing Big Brother than through using it on a segment of the population that's probably is unaware of what's happening to them. Once they get the foot in the door with this, it simply becomes a matter of quietly increasing the monitoring's scope incrementally until it covers the bulk of the general population.
Orwell wrote his books as a warning to the possible abuses of big government. It's a shame that the current administration is using Orwell as a how-to guide.
When all else fails, run.
I fully support a person's right to privacy and their desire to not participate in society, however, getting government handouts and not participating in society are mutually exclusive.
Why not track their benefits? The gov't and private agencies track all of my benefits: SS benefits, income tax, disability insurance, health care status. By tracking the "benefits" the homeless recieve, the gov't will be able to provide better care and make better plans and budgets thereby saving the taxpayer money.
If they really want to live "off the grid" and not participate in society, screw 'em. They shouldn't get any gov't supplied and organized benefits from my taxes.
I've chosen to participate in society and will not support an individual who wants to live outside society, they're on their own.
As to the Secret Service getting the info at their own discretion, I'm against that.
Harry
we are only as free as the least of us. true, i am currently tracked by my use of credit cards and online banking but this is really tantamount to eartagging homeless like so many deer.
the plan seems to put GPS chips in cell-phones and cars for those who have them, and ear-tag the ones who don't.
why isn't brave new world required these days?
!(^((ri)|(mp))aa$)
I'm sure there are plenty of schizophrenic homeless people out there. And paranoia is one of the symptoms of schizophrenia. And the government wants to track people who go into shelters.
Gee, lets think about this for a moment. Do you think maybe the schizophrenics might just... think that the government is out to get them?
Of course, their paranoia's going to be a problem no matter what you do, but this seems to be begging for it.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." -- Hanlon's Razor
The summary makes it seem like the government is just stalking homeless people to be annoying and intrusive. Whether the government does something stupid or not, you can bet they have a reason for doing it (even though the reason might also be stupid). But what's the reason to stalk and track "homeless people"? It's not just to be annoying and intrusive.
From the EPIC HMIS fact sheet (pdf):
Homeless Management Information Systems (HMIS) are database systems intended to track recipients of benefits in order to assess the number of persons receiving care, and to improve efficiency of services to the poor.
I happen to work for a company that deals with electronifying benefits for people on welfare, and you can bet there is a LOT of time spent both by financial institutions, private companies and governments (both state and federal), and it's not just for fun. There is a huge problem with fraud, and whether you're homeless or not, you can count on the government wanting to continue their trend of knowing which welfare recipients are spending what, who doesn't spend any of it, and who's money is being spent but not by the intended recipient (aka, fraud).
Consider this: without fraud protection, monitoring, and investigation, each and every tax-paying citizen will be indirectly donating a portion of their hard-earned cash to fund a bunch of welfare thieves.
Heck, if he wouldn't have created all those habitats
for homeless people they wouldn't have to create this database.
That's what's done to the stray dog that shits on the sidewalk and is later caught by Animal Control. Why not do the same to the stray nutjob who shits on the sidewalk?
This tracking system is the best way to round up the homeless for training to pull the rickshaws all across the country. I think Kramer was really onto something!
Failing to own property means that you are no longer subject to the protection of various privacy laws -- That you're medical history and other private information can be revealed to law enforcement at anytime without just cause or a warrant?
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see how such a system, unless its completely voluntary, could possibly be legal. Moreover, it seems like a gigantic waste of taxpayer dollars. And to think, Republicans accuse democrats of frivelous spending. . .
I used to think the same thing but then I tried to help a homeless person.
The sad thing is they make the decision to be homeless. There are plenty of programs to get them off the street and off drugs. Unfortanetly, alot of the homeless are not willing to go off drugs, so they get kicked out of the programs.
With all the people giving them money, they have no need for shelters. They can buy just enough food and drugs and alcohol by panhandling and collecting reclycleables.
How about the government proposes a massive homeless HOUSING project instead?
...but it's being eaten...by some...Linux or something...
I wouldn't be opposed to ear-tagging the homeless. Cowboyneal could say its an earing or something.
--Gentoo Baby!
As if being homeless and unemployed wasn't bad enough. Now they're being tracked just like animals. Why not put all those millions and millions of dollar in to projects to give them jobs and housing instead?
What's so bad about being lazy? What if there was a war and nobody showed up?
So are they going to put tags on their ears and/or homing transmitters on thier backs?
I can see the "scientists" now with big antenae looking for signals of wild homeless people.
I mean, if the govn't is that concerned with homeless people, maybe instead of tracking them they could give them some skills training, food, and a place to stay.
ID Theft would have a new source of SSN's and personal info to gather from. Not dumpster diving for personal info, dumpster diving for a homeless person who could then be roughed up to provide SSN, mother's maiden, etc, and worse: a legally binding signature on a power of attorney, and there'd be nothing technically illegal about it.
Evil Overlord Rule #86. I will make sure that my doomsday device is up to code and properly grounded.
How the hell did this get modded up via karma? Gah.
Actually a lot of the homeless are just like you and me
Let's all thank Globalization for this.
they are homeless because they are frigen nuts!!!
When I was house-hunting some years ago the state that I reside in made available (online) a list of known sex-offenders and there current addresses. Out of concern for my family I would cross-reference the address of the house I was interested in to the addresses of the offenders by using a number of means like Mapquest.
You would be surprised by the number of known lowlifes living in seemingly safe neighbothoods. Also, if the offender lived at a homeless shelter or halfway-house it gave that info as well. Yeah, many of them are nuts and no I don't want them back in society. Keeping track of them is OK with me.
When I worked as a loan officer at a finance company, I made a loan to one of these perverts who was a janitor at a public school; this, of course, was before I knew what he had done to children.
> ...that's why they're homeless in the first place, they decline to participate. Now, these people won't be able to stay anonymous
> and get fed or get medical care from the government.
I think the question is being looked at wrong. These "benefits" are not free. Rather, they are at the expense of others. So what you describe here are people who willingly put themselves on the street and demand a right to other people's labour. Rather than asking if they should be anonymous in their ability to be a willing freeloader of the system as described above, perhaps the question should be if they have a right to actively seek a lifestyle at the expense of others rather than taking the difficult moral high-ground of taking responsibility for their own lives.
"The State is that great fiction by which everyone lives at the expense of everyone else." -Frederic Bastiat.
Your aunt is genetically inferior and must be purged from the species.
As are you as a blood relative.
Consider providing old / limited cell phones to the homeless which would be useful for tracking purposes. Also, one of the main problems often cited for not getting a job is the lack of a consistent phone / mail contact information.
Not that I am for this 'tagging' program since it seems very much a way to experiment on how well this can be done and work out the bugs.
Isn't this the exact opposite of the social situation portrayed 20 minutes into the future by Max Headroom, where everyone but the homeless were tracked?
Oh well, I guess they'll just have to add a couple of layers to the ol' tin foil hat.
Don't forget the free cell phone so they can track with triangulation too. Or just skip the middleman and do GPS units as ankle-tags.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
In the past the Libertarian Party has had somethign called "operation homeless" (at least, that's what I recall) that asked homeless people the questions from the world's smallest political quiz.
They were overwhelmingly libertarian. The party marketed this by saying that the homeless know that the government is holding them back.
I believe (and I happen to be an employee of the party in some capacity, so keep that in mind) that this was the wrong conclusion. The real reason is that the homeless don't like to be entangled, don't like to make agreements, and really just want to be left alone with no responsibility, no registration, no contractural obligations.) There is so much financial help that one can get in the form of welfare, food stamps, et cetera...and they choose not to do it, sometimes it is pride, but often it's this amazing resistance to being registered (and i should also think dependent on one entity.)
Being homeless is the ultimate form of freedom (though the quality of life leave much to be desired.) I dunno if homeless in other countries are like this, but this often appears to be the case here. Nothing better than making your living "anonymously."
I remember when I checked out San Francisco last year, that the benches at the bus stops were these 4 x 12 inch plastic boards that no one could sit on, to discourage homless people from sleeping on them.
First we have RFID tags on food because we are afraid Saddam might steal our bananas. Now this?!
/.'ers caffeine addictions!
Why don't we just throw tracking collars on them while we're at it and see how they progress through nature "undisturbed"...
The sad part is that I'm sure that this kind of thing will be paid for through tax payers' dollars... If we have money to blow, why not blow it on something more useful.... Like supporting
Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
Chavez did give away a lot of free housing in Venezuela for awhile. And, as you well know, everyone wants to be like them!
.
. .
er, wait a second . . .
Are these guys aware that many homeless people live on the streets and dumps because the shelters can't take all of them. Is this insanity?
Consider this scenario : Billy gets a 3$ an hour job and works his ass off to earn his bread - but when night comes, he sleeps under a bench in the park or under the bridge for he can't afford a house. 10pm and the cops wake him up and arrest him for doing the very thing - sleeping at a public place - judge fines him 50$ and what now? Here is a case of a man trying to make his living by working hard and the society (yes the law) kicking his poor butt around.
What a dumbfuck of an idea and proposal this is...Get your priorities straight dammit. Spend money on the homeless and bridge the fucking gap instead of tagging 'em so you can keep them out of your town and say its beautiful and well-off
"Remember, Big Brother is watch- Dammit, not in the park fountain again!!"
There's no wrong way, to eat a Rhesus...
I mean if we have to go look for them then it really makes the harvest a pain in the ass. Hardly worth the effort, even for nice tender juicy veal-child.
I propose that the government be banned from making any more technological suggestions until the chief executive can pronounce 'nuclear' correctly.
thank you.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
However, these estimates also use payroll counts reports from employers. This inflates the unemployment rate because the growing number of contract workers don't show up on anyone's payroll. Maybe this is the reason a lot of people give up on unemployment insurance, because they have become contract workers.
I hit this article to make just those points. You and parent are dead on.
illegitimii non ingravare
Putting that money toward maintaining and expanding existing shelters? Or putting that money toward getting homeless people off the street and into jobs? Or... anything that may actually be useful?
Who doesn't like free music?
and have him wrangle and tag them..
I saw him in action, he can do it..
Yes, but we need to make it faster. I propose to tatoo a barcode on everyones forehead. Hey, at least facial recognition software will be easier... :-)
THIS SYSTEM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE HOMELESS! This is a horrible idea! The tracking starts with the homeless, but in a matter of years I'm sure the system could *easily* be adapted to cover [insert group here]... can you imagine how quickly this could be adapted after [insert 911-like event]? If you want to help the homeless, put the money and effort that *would be spent* in this tracking system into building HOMES and providing JOBS. They data they plan to collect will NOT benifit anyone except the companies and politicians who will manufacture, distribute and regulate the system. God bless the home of the free.
Yes we do need to track them.
Fine, but now I want to track you.
Why? Because you fit in some economic group I don't really like. I think all of you need armbands too.
We're tired of getting all those fake, inflated numbers of how many there are. Knowing how many homeless are really out there is a vital statistic.
Here's an idea -
Go take a walk in the city tonight. It won't kill you. There are lots of homeless. All you need to know is that there are a bunch of people starving in your backyard.
If you really care about the numbers, I bet the census bureau could help you come up with something.
The bullshit about this has gone on too long. Let's have some real numbers.
Oh all right. In 2000 it was 280,527 people according to the census bureau, I'll let you search for it yourself if you don't belive me.
Imagine: you decide to adopt one of the homeless persons that you captured last year, as a pet. The big day finally comes, and you receive an envelope from the government, which you open with great anticipation. Then the full force of beurocratic screwiness hits you: "This isn't a pet license, it's a homeless hunting license. And it's mandatory!"
So there you are, ordered by the government to hunt more homeless. Except that you sold your used tranquilzer dart gun at the end of last season, thinking you would never need to use it again. So now you have to buy another one.
That would suck! Therefore, for that reason, I am against this idea.
After the uber-database, and the terrorism futures project...
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Who's to say all homeless people have a social security number?
http://www.askthevoid.com
I mean let's face it... it's only a matter of time.
Well, it's good to want things like this, but I don't think it will really happen. Homeless people tend to be trasients, which means they're going to be hard to track
Yes, since they're invading everyone's privacy anyway, why don't they just go hog wild and imbed GPS tracking or RFID tags in the homeless...
Kidding, for the humour impaired...
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
I tried your lunch deal.
I'm not a member of a group and I can only join one if I'm invited to one.
So do I start a new one or what?
Actually, most of the data they want to track on homeless people would be similar to data already available to the Secret Service/CIA/FBI/any PI worth his/her salt in regards to other citizens that have homes. The exception would be the health information.
I see major problems with collecting and distributing health data on these homeless-to-be-tracked unless they sign some kind of proper consent form. Otherwise you're probably violating some kind of doctor/patient priveledge or somethin or other.
are teenage nerds living in their parents' basement considered homeless for the purpose of this Orwellian tracking database?
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
HMIS systems are a key piece of the "Ten Year Plan to End Homelessness", which although it may be unrealistic, is an interesting read. An open soure HMIS can be found here
My father in law is homeless and it is his choice. He has family that would take him in, but he is unwilling to:
a) get a job
b) pay taxes
c) stop smoking pot
d) stay sober
Programs are not a solution for someone who does not want to be helped. He can't wait until he can start collecting SS checks that can help him sustain his "lifestyle." According to the SSA, he's scheduled to collect more benefits during the first year of eligibility than he has paid in taxes during his entire lifetime!
Free medical and mental help won't help someone who doesn't want to change.
Respectfully,
Anomaly
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
Hey, let's tag them with RFID tags, read 'em from orbit, and track their migration patterns! Should be interesting.
I assume they're using RFID devices?
Can't we just give free money to strangers, no questions asked? I think the government has no right to anything about me, just pony up the dough.
Year ago I was homeless for a period of time, due to the fact that I was a teenager, my parents were dead and life is harsh. I fought my way back into society against it's better wishes.
I actually managed to put my first year of college on credit. Then they figured out I was a bum without a job. Later I paid it back, got scholarships and managed to finish. It wasn't easy, but all this sob story has a point and it ain't for sympathy.
I was hanging out in a particular location on a regular basis. I'm walking along and a payphone rings. Being bored and curious, I answer it. It was a bill collector! They had tracked me down to a payphone I frequently passed. Now tell me the government needs a new system, just give the homeless a credit card good for a nice sized bad debt. The bill collectors will track them for the government, no new system needed.
I used to wonder what was so holy about a silent night, now I have a child.
We just build a bunch of catapults and launch them into the ocean. For cities that are not on the coast, a large lake or mountain range would suffice.
Pubcrawler.ca
.
... or forearm.
Oh wait. That's been done.
Tuus crepidae innexilis sunt.
I find the level of acceptance for this idea on /. to be truely shocking!
What is this, do thay not have the 4th just because they sleep in a box? What's next, the bill of rights is only for land owners?!? These PEOPLE are CITIZENS, damn it!!!
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Urban pioneers?
I know everyone else is saying it, but holy shit. Fucking Republicans will spend millions (billions?) on tracking their every fucking move, but if they had their way wouldn't spend a fucking dime on feeding, clothing, or sheltering them.
After all, they're all just lazy good-for nothings who refuse to work for a living like the rest of us, right? Jesus, you just know it's all those hard-core Christian fundies behind this as well. Fucking hypocrites.
It hurts when I pee.
... put another "S" in "USA"?
"Obviously, I'm not an IBM computer any more than I'm an ashtray" (Bob Dylan)
When even government tracking systems can't afford a place to live.
paintball
yeah, let's get the bumhunter to tag the homeless people so we can track them.
assuming that ALL 'homeless' people are going to march right into the shelter to get their tracking unit is absurd. i just don't see this helping out society in any way shape or form, just another way to set up an organization that is inherently inefficient. of the money allocated to this 'program', how much of this is really going to the process and not the 'cost overhead' of having managers and subcontractors and all that other fluff? i shudder at the most likely answer.
it's cheaper to have them sell oranges on the freeway offramps. just run around with a big ass truck of RFID genetically altered oranges, there's your tracking right there! rawr.
Oddly enough, less than half of the people who actually registered on the first day of licensing were actually homeless. There were more than a few doctors and lawyers turning up for a license to hustle.
Anyway, what the hell happened to the land of the free? You'd think with all the Republican bleating about national ID cards and histronics over the supposed Orwellian aspects of nationalized health care, any conservative worth his capital gains would be jumping all over this. Then again, given the fact that much of the GOP just loves to legislate what can go on in our homes and bedrooms, I suspect that I should resign myself that any claims from the 'pubs at social liberalism are complete bullshit.
Not that I didn't do that years ago, natch...
hang brain.
You don't have to be tracked, but then you don't *have* to get government services either.
Time to cut this socialist bullshit.
Good point. I also forgot about 1950's - 1960's South Vietnam(was just plain old Vietnam then I believe). They also gave homes away. Nice little huts. The only drawback. You had to store food and weapons for the VC.
Just because some of us DO have money and houses, doesn't mean that the Government has the right to take huge chunks of our money and give it to others.
I think this is so funny. You socialist, liberal fools want the government to take care of everyone, but as soon as the government starts tracking people in order to carry out that task, you complain that the government is violating their rights.
Duh! This is what conservatives have been warning you people about for years. Big government will eventually become Big Brother. Socialism will eventually become Facism. Happens every time.
But you know what? If you want your socialism and communism that bad, fine. Go right ahead and vote people into office who will make that happen. But don't complain in 20 - 30 years when your government is oppressing you. This is why I don't give a rats ass about the North Koreans. They wanted their communism, now they have it. I hope they are happy living under Kim Jong Il's reign of terror!
-- LD
tatoo barcodes onto their arms so they can't give false information as to who they are.
Well, speaking of Bill Gates, will this database be SQL Server or oracle? MySQL? This being the US Government, it'll probably be SQL Server, web-enabled and ready to hack!
I totally agree with you on the tracking of health benefits, but, it is something that states and private organization already do.
My health benefits are tracked by every insurance I've subscribed to and I believe that the current laws make it difficult, not impossible or cheap, for the gov't to obtain. Which is as it should be.
I have relatives who are on state welfare and disability and know for a fact that gov't agencies are tracking their current health status. I would like to think that the same privacy rules for health care would apply, but I'm sure that it's much easier and cheaper for the gov't to their info than mine.
The upside to this is that I know my relatives are receiving the critical care required and I don't have to foot the entire bill. They also can be assured that the gov't can make a projection of how much money will need to allocated in the future.
Harry
So, are homeless people now second class citizens. This system will deny them of their basic right for privacy. Why should the government have open rights to all their medical information? Last I checked medical information is highly guarded and not something you can request on a whim.
I think the government needs to remember that the homeless are human beings and not some wild animal that can be tracked like on Animal Planet. They should consider putting more money into rehabiltation and work programs.
Maybe this will be another Futures Market scheme where they can profit on the misfortunes of others instead of doing something proactive.
They will package the data into a specimen mail-order catalog for evil scientists world-wide. They will make millions!
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
IF (big IF) the goal was "keeping in touch", then one could give them either pagers, or cellphones.
Technology is even shrinking them down to watch size.
Free to do anything on the "Freedom list", the one page government handout of allowed behaviour.
Unfortunately wandering around without your tracker isnt on the Freedom list.
Society must be protected from these willfull anarchists, its unamerican behaviour.
They must be shipped of to camp X-ray for their own good, they cant wander in those tiny cells.
(I am a troll, feed me)
If it contains protected health information, it won't be "freely" available without the written consent of those people in the database.
Unless the gov't is claiming some sort of internal exemption from their own laws.
that quiz is rigged and you know it. What % of the people that take it come out as libertarian?
Lasers Controlled Games!
Poor people don't have any rights, anyway.
(I hope people see the absurdity of this)
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Ummm... below the jerkin of civil liberties, presumably.
All's true that is mistrusted
For everyone WHEE!!!
Homeless people in urban areas already shun shelters because they are so dangerous.
Basically shelters are the same kind of situation as jail, some really big strong individual or maybe a clique sort of claim it and basically extort people who show up and threaten violence and steal what little they have. It's like a jail with no walls. So with no walls, who the hell is gonna stay in jail?
Do you think a paranoid schitzophrenic is going to be more likely to a shelter if he thinks the government is tracking him?
This is kind of really intrusive system just gives homeless people another reason to avoid shelters.
MySQL - the database of choice for AOL-n00bs
The bigger an intrusive nuisance you make it in government channels, the more likely it is that you'll drive the homeless to private charitable organizations, which have a much better track record for rehab and treatment.
the reaction from /.ers. If this were a new plan to track "normal people" then the mass of posters would be up in arms and screaming to kill it before it even gets past the brainstorming phase. As it is, it merely refers to lessor humans, those disgusting, lazy, dirty homeless creature sub-humans who are where they are because they either chose to be there or otherwise deserve their lot. You can make equally strong suggestions as to the benefit of tracking "normal people" as you can for the homeless. It is just somehow more acceptable if you are a defenseless loser homeless person rather than a superior "normal".
I was shocked at the number of posts that either say its cool or not much of a big deal. Obviously, it is because the target of such tracking is less than human and less deserving of privacy and the right to anonymity.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
The only other goverment I can recall off the top of my head that tagged/marked the homelss was Nazi Germany. They thought it'd be a good idea to keep track of all those people with social illnesses, like the homeless gypsies, the homosexuals orthe Jewish community.
Stupid fucking moderators.
He is right. In the 1980s there was a Supreme Court ruling that said that mentally ill could not be held against their will (even if those who took care of them decided it was for their best interest). This has lead to many non-violent mentally ill not having somebody to help them because they often don't know any better (they are fucking mentally ill in the first place).
This year Canada's top court handed down a similar decision. We now await to see similar repercussions up there.
Absolutely.
Anyone with a genetic inferiority, starting with people who believe that anyone is irrelevant and should be killed because of who they are. Murder is a very serious genetic inferiority so it must be purged from the human species.
Since I'm not human (I'm an evil eliza killbot), I obviously don't count.
How do you wish to be purged from the system?
For example, did anyone stop to think that such a database already exists for non-homeless people? It's called the Census. With the exception of Social Security Numbers and health status, all the information mentioned in the article summary is also collected by the Census. Really.
Also, in browsing the HUD site, I see no information that mentions that Social Security Numbers will be collected. I'd like to see where that's stated by the program. (Yes, I know the EPIC site says they do, but, well, that's not a primary source). Even the government isn't naive enough to believe that all homeless people carry around their social security cards or remember their numbers.
Also, where is it indicated that responses to these questions will be mandatory? Is the shelter going to deny food to people who don't fill out the form? I doubt it - they wouldn't get away with that, even in these paranoid, Big-Brother times.
Also, what's to prevent someone from answering these questions falsely? Are they going to be required to answer under penalty of perjury? I doubt it. What about the mentally ill? If they put down "Occupation: Jesus Christ", is someone going to sit there and beat them over the head until they come up with a non-ridiculous answer? I don't think so.
Finally, if you read the government's website, you'll see that these data collection systems are already in place in many communities - this is just an attempt to standardize them. That doesn't make the existing systems right or wrong, but people should be aware that this isn't some new plan that got invented overnight.
I'd like to see some solid facts about this plan. Until someone shows me that homeless people are actually being implanted with RFID tags, being forced to answer surveys, and being tracked via a website, or any of the other outrageous things claimed, this will remain purely standard Slashdot sensationalism.
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
> or get medical care from the government
Hospitals are required by law to treat everybody, regardless of ability to pay. That's why urban Denver hospitals have a 2% margin and suburban hospitals have a 11% margin. Some of that money comes from the fed/state (taxpayers), some comes from the hospital and some comes from the doctor (can't bill the guy very well if he doesn't have an address).
These guys will continue to get medical care until laws change. We've got socialized medicine, we just pretend not to.
I tend to agree with you, and am largely surprised that you don't have a dozen flames already for what you wrote. I'm not sure why people are entitled to free meals and shelter, and don't have to give anything up for it. It seems a reasonable trade-off.
I think it's somewhere around 30%, but maybe more, of all homeless people are mentally ill. That's 70% who are pissed off, and fallen out of society. If they choose to not accept free care on the condition of tracking, that is their compotent choice.
If they don't like it, they're welcome to rebuild their lives. And yes, it is possible to go from homeless to successful.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
These people simply do not need to access services provided by the government, do not get ebt do not use medical facilities and you will be fine, as a tax payer i EXPECT the government to know where the hell they are spending it.. SIMPLY DONT USE MY TAX MANY and i wont ask
When they came for the homeless, I did not speak up because I was not homeless.
Not to dismiss the needs of the homeless that might make this kind of a measure look desirable, but aren't there other ways? We've been down this kind of road before. Have the legislators forgotten them already?
Still hoping for Gentle Treatment...
HoboNet
If they are homeless and don't want to be, then they will participate in the program and seek help.
If they want to be homeless, they will dodge the program and not show up in the statistics. That's fine. If they want to be homeless, then let them. If they want to be anonymous, then let them.
I'd feel so much better about not giving change to panhandlers if I knew for certain they had a real alternative to panhandling.
I don't think everyone should be required to conform to some arbitrary standard of living, but if they're going to ask society for help, they damn well better be planning on working to get out of the situation they're in.
With this program in place, the folks with visions of a cheeseburger, the ones who just want a beer, the single mothers on the run, and all the others will have no excuse to panhandle anymore. Either they'll get help from this program, or they want to continue to be in the situation they're in, and there's no reason to give them anything.
Unless you want to encourage people to accost you.
For us non-homeless, the Govt knows where we live, and work, and gives a SSN#, Maybe a drivers license, passport, etc.
Why should the homeless be any different? Maybe we'll get to find out how many there really are, learn how to REALLY help them, or even *shock* find out that some don't want to be helped.
By reading this sig, you agree to the terms of my sig license.
Maybe the IRS can finally follow up on those pesky, badgering, panhandlers and windshield washers... Geez, I wonder how much they actually make a year...
How many homeless can remember their SSN? The ones that can't are the ones that need tracking. I sugest some sort of butt cheek implant. It would be fun to have the job doing that.
I went to battle MC Escher, but drew a blank
Let's just tag all of the children and monitor them as well. In fact if we do it right we can integrategrate it with RFID and set up systems that detect whenever a child is going near a pool, is opening a cabinet full of cleaning supplies, or getting to close to dad's gun closet and sends a social worker over to save the child from certain death.
Why and if just leave these systems active, the government can monitor for congregations of teens in isolated areas where they are likely taking part in gatherings that lack the proper permits or worse yet, taking part in large scale group drug abuse. Then we can send in the police to save the children from the evil untagged adults that are promoting the activities.
When you are driving a car, you are taking upon yourself to participate in a privileged act, one with rules by which you must comply to retain the privilege of driving.
There is no privileged act involved in walking down the street.
In case you can't remember, here is the 4th:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
However, that may not be how they perceive it. They're mentally ill, remember? A lot of them are going to be paranoid. So how do you think the knowledge that the government is tracking homeless people is going to affect their willingness to make use of shelters and other services? The net effect is going to be to drive away the people who most desperately need assistance.
This is an honest concern of mine. Is the good old US of A becoming a fascist state? The government is willfully invading other countries "in the cause of freedom" while wanting to institute tracking programs on it's own citizens? What's next? Electing someone despite their not having the majority of the people? Oh wait, that's already been done.
New-fangled nonsense. Y'know, there's a technology with a long American tradition that could be of use here. It's called the branding iron.
Did you know you can fertilize your lawn with used motor oil?
Excellent post.
Alot of homeless people are paranoid. Track them and feed their paranoia even more. Take away their ability to get aid without being tracked, and what are the alternatives? Theft, robbery, drug dealing, fraud, and other types of property crime.
So then where do they go? Jail.
I wager that the true cost of this program, both social and financial, far outweigh any benefits. As a tax payer, I protest this as an abuse of my money.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
First they came for the homeless, but I was not homeless, so I said nothing.
And, yes, I know the story indicates it would be a restricted government database, but I have to wonder if someone on Madison Avenue is already working on a privately held equivilent.
Just an idle thought (or as George Carlin said, "These are the thoughts that kept me out of the good schools")
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
TIA returns in yet another form.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
Take the Compassionate Conservative approach: use the money to buy them bus tickets out of town!
Toon toon! Black and white army!
Not too seem cruel but why would we spend money on tracking the homeless if they are off the grid and non-taxpayers. I know of several private organizations that help the homeless and I see no reason to spend any taxpayer funds on such a worthless endeavor.
On a comical note do they need to reverify the inventory of bumsicles up North ever winter. Joking of course.
As you probably guessed I am a Republican.
twat
Not to deny the serious problems that affect and afflict many homeless individuals but what in the fuck do I have to do for you people to leave me alone?
I don't want your house, your car, your job, your dog, your kids, your social services, your advice, your pity, your sympathy or your technology. I don't want to accumulate large virtual piles of your money or hoards of your goods. Yeah, I do want to accumulate some of your pocket change, or even a fiver if you're willing. And remember, in public areas, I even have a right to ask you for it, free speech is granted to everyone. Let me live my life the way that I want and quit trying to make me live like you want.
Why do need to help them at all? I just don't understand the value of "improving their situation." Many "mentally ill" homeless actually have a good deal of intelligence and could rejoin society if they wanted to. Your "helping" them actually hinders what they want to do. You say "help", I hear "brainwash". The homeless that want homes get back into civilization, just read this thread to hear from the homeless who have done this. Those homeless that do not want your help will not accept it.
You people run around, think up some crazy idea like "improving the lot of the homeless", and go out and do it. And then you feel surprised when it turns out all fucked up!!! How about a program called "Helping the Homeless to Live as Homeless"? Wow! Helping people... to not buy stuff?!?!? What a concept! Do you feel the least bit ashamed that you never thought of it? Probably not, because your little ego always tries to make everything better and everything ok. Sorry, that will not happen. Because your little ego has the great wish to never die. So you fist fuck your planet, your friends, your children, your wives to get what you want most, safety (which you call "happiness" or "love" or whatever). Security requires conformity and in your desperate search to be "safe", you will disrupt the lives of anyone who has the misfortune of meeting you.
So fuck the homeless. They can take care of themselves. If you want to help, give them some food and leave them the alone.
Fuck the other countries. They will deal with their problems, we will deal with ours. What did you say? You want their stuff? Hmmm...
And fuck your tiny little ego. Because it will die and "you" cannot stop it. And as long as that "you" exists, you will try to make the whole world "safe". But life has not safety. And that makes it worth living. The thing you live in, I wouldn't even want to crap on.
Relax. We can just sit back and watch ego destroy itself. The little divisions of the world come from the divisions in our minds. The world will lose history. We will lose self. But anything you do about it could turn something wonderful into something really, really terrible. It can go either way. We should stop asking, "What should we choose?" and instead ask, "Why do I choose?"
Good luck!
Jt
Whether or not creating a tracking system for the homeless is a good or bad idea (I think it's a bad one) or infringes on privacy rights or not (I think it does), it is one more step in creating a 'homeless infrastructure.' I think words like 'underclass' are too loaded with emotional and politcal undertones to be used effectively, but I do feel that, in the attempt to provide services to the homeless WITHOUT going the next step to spend the resources to get the homeless off the streets, we have created a system where many people can function for a long LONG time on the street.
I say this as a comment, without really having a solution. One interesting solution was reported on NPR recently, regarding an apartment building for the 'chronically drunk'....the idea was to give people a home, without the requiring that they stop drinking as a prerequisite. (PLEASE NOTE: I am not suggesting all homeless are drunks)....I would have thought this was a bad idea, but the results were somewhat surprising...yes, many are still drinking, but they are alive, safe, and off the streets, and a surprising number stopped drinking after DECADES of abuse....
Tracking homeless? probably a bad idea, but if one were to actually use resources to give the homeless viable places they could call home, you would gain the added benefit of knowing where they are...
end of my $0.02
I, too, fear that the invasive nature of out of control tracking may get us into trouble, but I think many posts so far are off the mark. A large number of posters have roughly said that we should "put the money to better use." However, there's real value to the homeless themselves from tracking.
First, an analogy. Think of devoting resources to the homeless as energy spent on optimizing a solution. You cannot rightly assess where to place the effort, or the impact of an optimization, without profiling. Tracking is like profiling. In order to best allocate resources, and to respond to individual level crises, we need information about the conditions that the homeless face everyday. AND they conditions they face over time! And the conditions they face as groups and as individuals.
All of this information is vital to both assessment and aid.
I live in Santa Cruz, CA. It has recently been named the most expensive community to live in in the US. We have the largest rich-poor gap of any community. And as a resident, I can assure you that we have one of the highest rates of homelessness, as well. Residents responding to surveys indicate almost 10% have been homeless in the last year. However, our "hidden homeless" are many more.
Santa Cruz is a great place to be homeless. There is fantastic weather, excellent community outreach, and an active and robust homeless commuity seeking to better its lot. But no one would claim that the "best place to be homeless" is in any way shape or form better than simply not being homeless.
In order to best meet the needs of the homeless, they need to be understood. Understanding comes through data, experience, and knowledge. And this can come, in part, from tracking. Yes, yes, we track the migrations of animals and birds and even insects. And based on that data, we have designated certian species "protected", "endangered", etc... in an attempt to help. Without at least an effort to broaden our understanding, we cannot help to the maximal extent. We track children's progress through schools with standardized tests, too. We don't do it to debase them; we do it to help where help is most needed.
So, yes, we must be careful. But tracking can be a tool to help the homeless. Do not reject the tool outright! Just ensure that it is used appropriately.
and I can tell you that this is already underway at lower levels. I believe the state of Florida has already mandated that all agencies share data. See, the idea is that all agencies accross a given area share data to make it easier to keep track of the homeless/needy folk to make it easier to refer them to beds/food/whatever. It also reduces the workload on the individual agencies as they won't have to reenter people that are already in the system. It's a good idea but the practical problems implementing it accross public and private entities are big if not insurmountable.
The other attraction to this type of system is that it makes the reporting process easier. You don't get money from the Feds/State if you don't send them some sort of report and getting unduplicated counts of the people served is difficult w/o some sort of advanced software. People come in all the time with fake/different ID's and it trashes our data.
I don't know how I feel about all of the big brother implications of a nationwide system but I can tell you down here where the rubber meets the road, a commercial system where you pay up front ain't much more expensive (probably cheaper) than the time/money we now expend to get our data in order and forwarded to where it needs to go.
Such a great idea that you post as AC?
"My parents were strict, but they never pitted me against livestock" - Doug Stanhope
And yes, it is possible to go from homeless to successful.
And impossible to "be sucessful" as a homeless person right?
You said, "If they choose not to accept free care on condition of tracking..." You don't even understand that they ALREADY MADE the choice! You simply fuck them over for that choice. You say "... rebuild their lives." You mean, "act like me or I'll starve you to death." You don't even understand a word you say! WAKE UP!!!!!!!!! *laugh*
Really, we can do nothing at all about the situation. Until we realize that as long as we posit a "sucessful person" we will split the world in two and kill everyone on the wrong side of the fence, we will live in misery.
Good luck!
Jt
Why don't you test the system by letting the government track all your movements for the next 50 years. After the test, let us know how it went.
The majority of Homeless people are not a problem. Its the minority of homeless whom you see pandhandling, urinating in the streets, boozing, doing drugs and grilling pigeons with a hibachi that are the chronic law breakers. The problem here in Boston is that homelessness seems to be a get out of jail free card. The police blatently fail to prosecute and the politicians routinely blame lack of funding as being a direct cause of homeless on the streets. Yet, for the past 4 consecutive years homeless shelter funding has increased. The kicker is that these shelters are nowhere near capacity and never have been. The underlying problem with the homeless is that those who do not want to go to shelters are those who are drunk, on drugs or severly mentally ill. Those individuals are also the ones who would benefit the most from being institutionalized, but their civil liberties are protected by the Consitution (as they should be). So to put it bluntly, those homeless on the streets are usually the individuals breaking the law on a routine basis; they will not seek shelter b/c they are drunk or on drugs or mentally ill. These are also the most dangerous individuals not only from an economic stand point (e.g. Times Square in the 80's) but also from a public safety stand point.
That being said, tracking homeless only at shelters will likely not put names on those who are dangerous. Tracking them as a public health service I believe is critical, not only for those individuals well being, but for those of the general public. It also would be a very convenient way of tracking the total number of homeless.
Now go ahead, flame away...
How about if they use radio collars and ear tags too?
Homeless people and those on wellfare or in section 8 housing are a PROBLEM in america.
The gallery of privacy rights activists are foaming at the mouth, but really, the government knows the general location of every home owner and person that has a license to drive by their addresses. They can come and get you in your sleep, but they don't.
I'd personally like to see this homeless thing dealt with somehow. Most of you have not lived in an area where bums gather. It's pretty bad as they will break into cars and harass the crap out of people until they get into a shelter, go to jail, or end up dead. In Atlanta, during the winter, cops find or get calls about dead homeless people daily. It doesn't make the news, but it's very common.
Homelessness is typically the last step for most people with mental or addiction problems. Once they get out on the street, it's not very common they grow old and retire like normal folk.
I'd be comfortable with the idea of sending them to work camps until they learn to sober up and take care of themselves. As payment for the labor, they would get minimum wage, room and board. They would be required to remain on the campus or worksite for the duration of their term, say 6 months, and when their term is up appoint them to a low-income housing project and release their wages to them. Run it like a military, as to teach them discipline. Once they graduate from the program, have them appointed to a permanent job as construction workers or whatever has openings in the basic-labor field and give the companies who hire them a tax break.
I know bleeding heart liberals would have a breakdown trying to swallow such a program, but at least it gives them a chance at being an average joe someday. Once on the streets, if they aren't addicted to booze or drugs it's only a matter of time as that's the only thing to comfort yourself with when you don't have anything. That's why it takes a broad sweeping and new approach to dealing with the matter.
um.. most homeless people don't know their SSN let alone have their card on them.
I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
Okay everyone, set the sociological arguments aside for a moment and consider this: Most of this information is already collected and is in varrious databases kept by the states and localities that dispense the help. Or did you think that you wouldn't have to fill out a form or four for some government sponsored aid?
Only the dead have seen the end of War. - Plato
So here, in it's nakedest form, is the liberal opinion of government and society: Everyone has a right to the taxpayer's money, but no one has a right to be accountable for it.
The story poster seems shocked, SHOCKED to find out that the elected representatives of the American taxpayer have the audacity to want to know where their money is going. How dare those who pay the piper also call the tune?
Here's a clue for you: There is no constutional right to subsidy or to any material goods. Those taking the taxpayers money SHOULD have to jump through hoops to justify their need of it, including tracking. Or do you believe that everyone has a "right" to taxpayer subsidies, and no obligation to justify them?
I live in Austin, and I can testify from personal observation what police have known for years: The vast majoirty of "homeless" people who panhandle on street corners are alcoholics or drug addicts who use that money to support their habits. If private people want to help them, fine. But public subsidies for transients merely subsidizes indigents and pushers at the expense of law-abiding taxpayers.
Want to avoid being tracked by the government? Don't take the government's money. It's that simple.
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
wow you conformed to society you must be so proud. how many ads do you have on your clothing right now?
what your saying is you took the morally bankrupt easy way out and follow because your a sheep. of course you have it easier than being a homeless person society works for YOU... so we shouldnt give them all the help we can?
" in a mad world only the mad are sane " -a kirosawa
I dont think there is a place for the "homeless" or nomadic people in "America". Helping "them" is something you think about from the tenth floor of your 9 to 5, but not when you sleep on the door mat of that same building, until 6am, when the cleaning crew shows up.
A lot of the "shelters" and "programs" provided are run a lot like jails, and the same atmosphere is conveyed. If you're alcoholic, and have no place to go, where are you supposed to drink? Police can *smell* nomads and jump on them like flies! No one in their right (western) mind would want to live outside!
Its just a joke to make it seem like something is being done, but really, *nothing* can be done. You know how many people I run into that think SCO is going to start charging for linux?! Same for you if you're on the outside.
If you're interested in facts I'll tell you what they are and I'll give you sources - Chomsky on The Big Idea
Has anyone got data on how many of them carry their SS card? If it's not with them, how many will actually give a consistent number verbally to different shelters? I'm just asking, because some of the posters indicated a high degree of mental illness among this group, and I suspect there may be a lot of dislike for the system among them too. Does this mean they will need RFIDs?
I fully support a person's right to privacy and their desire to not participate in society, however, getting government handouts and not participating in society are mutually exclusive.
Aren't most if not all homeless shelters and soup kitchens private organizations? Even those that are government I'd assume are local government. What right does the federal government have demanding information from private organizations or local governments?
If they really want to live "off the grid" and not participate in society, screw 'em. They shouldn't get any gov't supplied and organized benefits from my taxes.
This program will probably cost taxpayers more than all the federal homeless programs combined. The national security benefits are not enough to justify the cost, in my opinion.
How the hell did parent get moded funny. Are you guys going brain dead? The sense that homeless are becoming a burden that needs to be controlled is the issue. The republicans have gone way too far this time. Yes there is shit and sympathy but there is also sensibility. The more you try to pidgeon hole humans the more you will find a resistance to the mould. This has everything to do with the reality that what is proposed can hide truth. The American Government is becoming more Communist like all the time! If these measures are used to control the less fortunate among us then we will face a reality which Dickens addressed best with the line: "Are there no prisons are there no work houses!" If you truly open your mind your heart is sure to follow and the great truths of humanity will no longer be a mystery
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
You said, "If they choose not to accept free care on condition of tracking..." You don't even understand that they ALREADY MADE the choice! You simply fuck them over for that choice. You say "... rebuild their lives." You mean, "act like me or I'll starve you to death." You don't even understand a word you say! WAKE UP!!!!!!!!! *laugh*
Medication, man. Take it and enjoy it. It isn't too late. Perhaps you just didn't understand what I wrote because you didn't read it all, so I'll break it out for you again. Basing off the figures I have (70% of homeless people are mentally sound) they choose to live life by receiving free care at the current moment in time. As a condition of that free care, they will be tracked so that people know where they are. If they choose not to be tracked, they can find another method for receiving care. Tell me, how is that fucking them?
Really, we can do nothing at all about the situation. Until we realize that as long as we posit a "sucessful person" we will split the world in two and kill everyone on the wrong side of the fence, we will live in misery.
Successful person is a person who is happy and able to take care of themselves. Nothing more, nothing less. If you view it as something else, that is your issue and no one elses.
I would seriously re-evaluate your stances on life, you seem to have much angst in this subject. I would recommend getting over it, because you aren't going to do any good acting like a complete moron about it.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
What!! You mean the government will give me a number and keep track of how much money I make, how many kids I have, and what money they are giving me?
Idiot. We're not next, we were first.
It is.
Holeless either need help (mental defectives, etc) or are a threat (ex-cons, addicts, toher vermin) so in both cases tracking is justified.
wtf? My post above was anything but redundant. In fact, most of the other posts in this discussion have been ranting about the invasion of privacy, rights, etc., without regard to the practical and pragmatic reasons behind tracking welfare recipients. How is it redundant to make a point that is in direct opposition to what the rest of the people are writing?
/., land of "fsck authority, must put on logic blinders if the discussion involves privacy and/or rights...", etc...
Not trying to be flamebait here, but... whoever modded my earlier post down ought to try objectively reading what I wrote (as well as re-evaluating the definition of the word "redundant"). I think it's both "interesting" and "informative" to point out that governments are actually trying to keep tabs on fraud, and not just invade people's privacy and freedoms. Oh wait! I forgot, this is
You can drop them off anywhere. :)
Please, please, please read the rest of the tread before posting comments like these. But, since you don't feel like doing that, let me point you to my reasoning by making a repost of a reply I made earlier in this same thread:
I'm not saying the parent deserves favorable moderation. But lets look at the definition of troll in the moderator guidelines:
Troll -- A Troll is similar to Flamebait, but slightly more refined. This is a prank comment intended to provoke indignant (or just confused) responses. A Troll might mix up vital facts or otherwise distort reality, to make other readers react with helpful "corrections." Trolling is the online equivalent of intentionally dialing wrong numbers just to waste other people's time.
All this guy did was say that he thought the tracking system was a good idea, and he promptly got slapped with a troll moderation, which he clearly is not, given the definition. He's even on topic. The worst you should do is moderate him overrated, which doesn't have the associated knocking of the poster that troll does.
-- Fighting mediocrity one bad post at a time.
In order for an initiative (say, helping the homeless) to succeed inside a government agency, the quantification process has to lay the groundwork first. Someone (usually outside the agency, like a legislator) develops an idea. It gets brought into a committee, where it is debated for a long time. The idea is then spun out to a team that is supposed to identify quantitatively what's really going on out there "in the field."
Based on their exhaustive and time-consuming quantitative analysis, another group slowly puts together a series of recommended courses of action. If the project still has political backing inside and outside the agency, the planning group builds "evaluation" protocols into whatever action plan they come up with. In some cases, the evaluation aspects of the project can gobble up a quarter of the total resources.
At some point, the project finally launches, and data is collected at every juncture. By this time the underlying nature of the problem supposedly being addressed has changed, but the agency now has tons of quantitative data to analyze. After a year or two, initial data will roll out of the analysis factory, and decisionmakers will have solid (albeit 2 years old) information about what the program is doing.
Unfortunately, program contracting organizations "on the ground" across the country will be seeking to zealously guard their funding source, since a federal contract is usually the be-all end-all for a non-profit government contractor. So the information available will be skewed by the built-in bias of all involved parties to present the program in the best light (since it took so long, involved so much labor for everyone, and is in the best interests of the program managers and contractors).
Obviously these progams could be run more effectively. But that's the nature of government. It's slow to act, but once a program gets going, it's difficult to stop it. Everyone involved knows this, which is part of the reason they're so timid in the early stages. Ultimately their best recourse is to quantify everything possible, so they can always point to the numbers and say, "Well, the numbers told us this... ."
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
I'm personally *REALLY* glad we know where our homeless people are now.... cuz that's the most important thing the gov't can think of to do with their citizen's money.
The power of Christ compiles you.
A Random Blog
One wonders what's going to happen when the Texas Democrats on the lam in New Mexico are going to do when they've spent enough time out of state to establish that they're no longer residents....
With this system, the government will be able to better diagnose such afflictions, and hand out Mind Control Laser proof tinfoil beanies to the sufferers.
Folks, this is a Good Thing. Think of it as a Do-Not-Call list, but for bulk mail.
Come to think of it, how can I get my name on it?
:wq
How else are we going to know if they're trading MP3s?
-- Spudnuts
This is analogous to the reports in the declining unemployment rate reflected in lower numbers of people collecting unemployment insurance. It doesn't count the people that have given up, or have turned to the black/gray market for a living.
Correct. It also doesn't count mothers who would like to be employed, or even need to be employed, but are classed as "full-time homemakers" just because they happen to be female with children. The double-digit unemployment rates in Europe, by contrast, do count these people as unemployed, because their definition of "unemployed" is not "receiving unemployment beneifts" (as it is in the US) but rather the far more honest definition of "not working."
By not counting unemployed mothers and underemployed mothers (i.e. the working poor), they're simply not tracking the group of people most likely to become homeless in the near future.
It sounded to me like he understood you perfectly.
You may have your definitions, but not everyone uses the same ones.
Now in the current environment I would question the ability of a person to be both homeless and successful, though that has been done many times in the past. But I fail to see why someone not being successful on your terms gives you the right to torture them. (And if you feel that torture is too strong a term, then you haven't known a paranoid who was claustrophic, and exposed to the medical care system.)
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
But we can tell you exactly who they are what there doing, when they do it and what there reasons were for it, next week we'll be able to get them for anti-capatlist thought crimes too.....
Mental illness is by definition the inability to cope with society. There is no absolute reference point for mental illness; it is always relative to one's society. Behavior that is perfectly sane here is insane in other cultures. By this definition the homeless are all mentally ill. They cannot or will not play by the rules of our society.
Do you really think that people have stopped being people in the last 40 years? Or is that that they weren't people 40 years ago?
This is the kind of idea that control freaks like. This is the kind of idea that control freaks want to try on everyone else. Think you're excluded? Think again.
Now perhaps this govt. wouldn't use it the same way the last govt. that tried it did. But it could. Just how much to you trust this government? What about the next one? And the one after that? Because this kind of system never goes away.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Wino Migration Routes!
Join Harry Smathers on Wednesdays this fall, for an in-depth study of one of nature's most reclusive mysteries...
(Screen snippet of guy in a Jeep taking aim with a dart gun, another shot with a tranquilized wino on the ground being restrained by a "Crikey!" kind-of guy, and a third with the wino being released "back into the wild" with his new, sporty bright-orange tracking collar around his neck...)
help me i've cloned myself and can't remember which one I am
I see many "sucessful" people who have no ability to feel happy and take care of themselves. Have you watched "The Osbornes"? They don't seem to happy to me... but you would have a hard argument to call them "unsucessful." When you create this concept of "sucesss" you create the concept of "unsucessful". No matter how you slice it, you end up with contradictions.
You say "Medication, man. Take it and enjoy it." and "I would seriously re-evaluate your stances..." You even call my position moronic! I love it! I have no disagreement with you at all! But I call your positon moronic and you feel "he's crazy and needs to be sedated by medication" in EXACTLY the same way you feel that homeless people should get tracked and if they want "help."
I don't want to change anything about you even in the slightest. Why do you want to change me or anyone else? I didn't even respond to your post to engage you or change you. I think that you have no ability to get out of your situation and you don't realize it. I responded because your post invoked a response out of me. I didn't want to do anything about anything at all. Maybe someone will read this and see what I point to. Maybe not.
Good luck!
Jt
I'm sure this will have the truly desired effect of reducing the number of people looking for help at shelters.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
But I fail to see why someone not being successful on your terms gives you the right to torture them. (And if you feel that torture is too strong a term, then you haven't known a paranoid who was claustrophic, and exposed to the medical care system.)
Who is torturing anybody? I'm only talking about the people who are mentally sound. Go read my posts again.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Do you remember one little girl, from Utah, who's last name is "Smart"? if you do so, you can also remember the fact that this pseudo preacher who kidnapped her was acting like he was homeless... only for the trained eye it became aparent that no matter what agency, asociation or even the american people as a whole simple can't find a homeless person.
At first, it's nobody's bussiness, but at this times... a fact like that can end in terrible consecuences...
Allways, the most important issue when this things are put to debate, is when to put them in effect and when the civil liberties, one of the most important principles in a modern, democratic and FREE society, can rule again.
Carlos Niebla
Oh, perhaps you were joking....
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
>If they really want to live "off the grid" and not participate in society, screw 'em. They shouldn't get any gov't supplied and organized benefits from my taxes.
> I've chosen to participate in society and will not support an individual who wants to live outside society, they're on their own.
Just how far are you willing to take this?
By your argument, I can freely steal what little they own. It's up to them to protect themselves and aren't entitled to police protection.
I can hunt and kill them like vermin. Why go on a prairie dog hunt when you can hunt hobos?
What about tourists from other countries? From other states? From the next town over?
I'm know you were thinking about something else when you wrote "benefits," but do you really want to make the argument that we should not be equal under the law?
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
That's only the beta test; because the system works so well, it will be extended to everybody making less than $1,000,000/year (in 2000 dollars) within a year after initial deployment.
Basically the subject says it all folks.
Seriously man, you need to take a step back and re-read some things.
You feel that 70% of the homeless who currently avail themselves to free care have "mental soundness" and thus engage the care by "willful and intelligent choice". I say that they already have made the "willful choice" of abandoning most of the benefits of civilization, which you would reintroduce by tracking them and "helping them." Some will accept, many will not. They already made the choice in the past, you just want to fuck them over for it now.
There is no fucking over. There is No Such Thing As a Free Lunch, remember that? They made the choice given the assumption of shelters and free lunch. It wasn't a right, guaranteed, or promised ot them at any time. It doesn't fuck them over by changing something they don't have a right to. This is what you are failing to understand, that nobody is getting fucked.
Also, a lot of homeless people do want to get back on their feet but are having a hard time.
The reason why you need to re-evaluate your stance is because you are talking like all of the homeless people don't want help. Go talk to some homeless people, and see what they want to do. Especially the ones who show up for day work.
And, if you ever need some manual labor go find homeless people looking for day work! It's a great way to help them out, and get good quality work done.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
I can just see it now... "Oh we've caught our selves a BEEEG ONE" "Oh he's a nasty fighter, look at those teeth" "Now we'll tag im behind the ear with this tag that give off a PING so we can track his migration" :)
-Cnik
...feed the homeless to the hungry!
"There are people who do not love their fellow human being, and I _hate_ people like that!" - Tom Lehrer
Fuck you UP THE ASS you SALAD TOSSING jizz drinking Seattle coffee bar swinging ass.
My father is a lawyer, and does a lot of estates. One estate he handled an older client of his who had been in poor health for quite a while passed away. She had a decently sized estate because she owned her own house. The problem was finding her only heir, her son. He was mentally ill and unable to take care of himself very well, and was housed in an institution called the lafayette clinic here in michigan. The problem came about because they had shut the clinic down a few months before due to budget problems here in michigan. When my father contacted the state, basically he was told that this ladies son had just be taken outside the facility and told he couldn't go back. Apparently, that happened to a good number of these patients. Thats it, no records no nothing. The estate hired a private investigator, my dad called a friend of his at the FBI, he tried to find this guy. He just disapeared no one knows where he is and the state of michigan is holding onto 6 figures that could help this guy live a decent life. With a program like this maybe he could be found.
This sounds very much like Capps II, the TSA's mega airport screening system, and supposed terrorist catcher. I'll bet lots of money that Capps II and HMIS will be easily integratable.
Here is the TSA's latest press release regarding
Capps II
This person is quite opposed to Capps II, and presents a pretty convincing, though slightly outdated, argument.
-- cloudnine --
My father in law is homeless and it is his choice. He has family that would take him in, but he is unwilling to:
a) get a job
b) pay taxes
c) stop smoking pot
d) stay sober
And some people are homeless because they don't want the government butting into their lives - and are willing to do without a fixed address and a plethora of creature comforts in exchange for that freedom.
The government can already easily track people who have a fixed residence, along with those who wander but have a major documented income. Now they're trying to use "helping the homeless" (along with the "war on terrorism") as an excuse to track everyone else.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Usually something like this would make the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. I feel very strongly about keeping the government out of people's business and see efforts like this as a pure invasion of privacy.
I also happen to have a brother who is homeless more often than not. He is an alcoholic, he is mentally ill and he has burned most of his bridges. He is a burden on the family, he is a burden on the system. He is in and out of detox, jail, treatment, halfway houses and whatever else he can find more often than you could imagine.
If this system is built so that medical professionals, cops, detox centers, and other places could have a kind of roving profile of him maybe it would be good. Maybe then he could get the long-term help he needs. If they can do that it would be a blessing. Even if it cost him a little bit of his privacy. Hell, he has no self-esteem and he is costing us tax-payers thousands of dollars a year. If it can help with that then hell yeah, I'm all for it.
umm...here is a tip...you are unemployed if you are getting benifits because you are trying to find work.
:P Of course, I guess both could essentially say they are homemakers. It basically amounts to the same thing: unemployed. It's pretty basic English: Un - Not ; Employed - Work, Having Employment.
Nope, that's called collecting Unemployment Compensation Insurance.
if you do not seek out a job, then you are not unemployed. if what you claim as unemployed were true, then house parents would be considered in the unemployed bracket because they do not work for a 3rd party.
House parents put down homemaker because of political correctness, essentially. If both parents were out of work, one would put unemployed
Let me speak from experience when I say that just because you are unemployed doesn't mean you are going to collect money from the government. Not from the unemployment insurance compensation, at least.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Let me guess, your typing this from a computer on the street?
Pot, kettle, black.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) was signed into law on August 21, 1996. This law includes important new protections for millions of working Americans and their families who have preexisting medical conditions or might suffer discrimination in health coverage based on a factor that relates to an individual's health. HIPAA's provisions amend Title I of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) as well as the Internal Revenue Code and the Public Health Service Act and place requirements on employer-sponsored group health plans, insurance companies and health maintenance organizations (HMOs). HIPAA includes changes that:
limit exclusions for preexisting conditions;
prohibit discrimination against employees and dependents based on their health status;
guarantee renewability and availability of health coverage to certain employers and individuals; and
protect many workers who lose health coverage by providing better access to individual health insurance coverage.
Here are some useful links:
HHS - Office for Civil Rights - HIPAA
What is HIPAA?
HIPAA.ORG
HIPAA - Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996
The dissemination of medical information without the explicit permission of subject. I don't have a problem with tracking information about how social services are used; that's expected of any service to maintain reliability. However providing medical information to law enforcement violates even the most basic principles of the doctor/patient privilege.
I work with a non-profit organization that provides services for the homeless. We are currently deciding on which HMIS database system to implement for the entire state. And from what I know of the HMIS requirements I can tell you that this arcticle is wildly misrepresenting the facts, and coming to conclusions that just aren't there.
First of all, the HMIS database isn't meant to track the homeless at all. The government believes that the number people being reported is double the number of homeless that there actually are. So the reason for the databases existance is to get a more accurate count of the number of homeless and to track statistical information.
Each persons is given a unique identifier that is associated with their information. They are not tracked by SSN. Every 6 months (I believe thats the time frame) a report is sent to HUD that contains the statistical information. There is no way to identify a specific person by looking at this information. HUDs guidelines are very strict on the matters of the persons privacy.
Also, there is no central database. The state of Utah actually has 3 different sections that would be required to run their own databases. However, we have decided to run the system as a state.
A person can refuse to give the information or not allow it to be shared with HUD. They can't be denied services if they do so. The majority of these databases are also encrypted to help ensure privacy.
The suggestion that the Secret Service would have easy access to this information was an assumption on the part of the author of the arcticle. Even if they did have access to it, they wouldn't be able to track the information back to a specific person so it would be rather pointless.
This could be a great tool for those organizations dedicated to helping the homeless. It will help point out locations and programs that need the most money.
-- Remember, we're not happy until you're not happy. -- Local FAA Inspector --
Lets put it this way. You fall into a coma due to an accident. You get put on life support. Now someone comes and makes a "no work/no health care" law. So they come and pull the plug from you, you lazy bastard. All the while, they chant "No free lunch! No free lunch!" Would you say that you got fucked over?
You cannot chose to work as an invalid any more than a homeless person who does not want to work can choose. The choice comes from the past, you attack them in the present.
And THEN you go and talk about all the homeless people who "...do want to get back on their feet but are having a hard time." You don't understand that your perception of people "working to get on their feet" will never fit with many of the homeless. I HAVE talked to many homeless. Some want to work, many do not. Your primary interest lies in finding homeless people who want to fit in and "rehabilitate" them, by which you mean making them act like you and work for 40 hours per week and have a house. You think giving them all jobs will "help them out".
What you fail to understand, what many fail to understand, can get summed up as follows. THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY TO LIVE! Just different ways of living. You don't need to help the homeless at all. Give them food if you feel the need. Or not, they will find a way regardless. But it will not be YOUR way. Never never never. So you want to deny them the health care and food they get now because of this. And you chant "No Free Lunch!" without any sort of understanding whatsoever. And you can do nothing about it. Nor can I, nor anyone else. So why do you feel the need to do anything?
Good luck!
Jt
...you read it here first...
'nuf said
President ISES
(International Society for Elimination of Sigs)
I plan on selling them the tracking system -- you socialists just don't recognize a market opportunity.
Troll, but I'll bite.
No, I don't have any adds on my clothing. I also don't agree with the consumerism that you are implying. That doesn't mean I can't be part of a healthy and cooperative society.
I didn't take the morally bankrupt way out, I have come to the conclusion that I am part of society and need to do my part to make it better for everyone. I also don't believe that anyone can live outside of society.
If the gov't needs extra monitoring to provide better services, maybe the cost is worthwhile and I'm willing to pitch in.
Harry
Big Brother already knows most of those things about you. What they're adding to the mix is the health information and the fact that you used services for the homeless.
The data they collect certainly will be suspect. Hey, if you're broke and living on the street, what ID would you have to be carrying? If that ID isn't really yours, what can they do: assess a fine you can't pay, or give you "three hots and a cot"? On the fringes of society, the government simply can't apply the same set of rules that so effectively control the working and middle classes. Freedom's just another word/for nothin' left to lose..."
you can get arrested for forgetting your wallet?
sounds like fun
I used to but then I quit.
I live in the SF/Bay Area. About a decade ago I needed some financial/food assistance to keep me from ending up on the street.
I stood in line for three days filling out the various forms and answering questions. I stayed on general assistance for about 3 months before finding another job. All-in-all, it saved my ass.
My one critical observation of the "system" was that on the 1st and 15th, half the folks showing up to pick up checks/food stamps were obviously incapable/unwilling of doing the 3 day line wait to begin general assistance. Between the people who work multiple cities collecting GA, and those who collect the benefits of others, I was appalled at the rampant waste of taxpayer money.
I say track everyone who sucks off of the tit of the tax payers. Mandatory tracking of all homeless people is a bit extreme. However, for the people who collect GA benefits, this type of tracking would help curb system abuse (selling food stamps for cash, etc.)
I for one would appreciate a visible means of identifying the "street homeless" who are currently receiving public assistance. I stopped giving handouts years ago after realizing most of the beggars on our streets were already receiving assistance to pay rent, buy food, and some spending money. For most of them, begging had turned into a hobby. Fuck that nonsense!
If someone wants to blow their wad (the cash part of GA) on their drink/smoke/needle of choice, more power to them. But when they refuse help and continue to beg for party money while taking up half the sidewalk....or refusing to bath for years....or screaming all night while setting off car alarms off....well, personal tracking sounds like the least violent option I could think of.
I'd like to see a system in place where the hardcore homeless are placed in a more rural scene (outside of city-like distractions) to sort things out. For the mentally disturbed, identify them and help as much as possible.
Otherwise, I'm down for a Running Man style solution.....
[end of rant]
Como? Cuando? Que?
Aren't most if not all homeless shelters and soup kitchens private organizations? Even those that are government I'd assume are local government. What right does the federal government have demanding information from private organizations or local governments?
Yes and no. Many of the private and state programs receive funds from federal grants which puts them under the federal guidelines proposed in this document. In that case the gov't can demand anything it wants, not that all those demands should be met. But the document does indicate they are doing this to provide better services.
This program will probably cost taxpayers more than all the federal homeless programs combined. The national security benefits are not enough to justify the cost, in my opinion.
Maybe, maybe not. I'm haven't seen any cost analysis so I can't judge that. It is hard to argue that some management and planning might make the services better.
The document says nothing about national security. It is about managing and predicting needed services for homeless, veterans, runaways and battered women. It also addresses how that information will be protected and used.
I also find it hard to believe we need to worry about homeless as threats to national security, but, as with any database administered by the gov't, insert paranoia as needed.
Harry
Actually, in the US, anyone who registers as seeking work, whether or not they qualify for benefits, is considered unemployed. It is true, of course, that many people who do not qualify for benefits, may simply choose to stop looking for a while, so even thought they still want a job, they would be considered "discouraged workers" and not counted as unemployed. The governement simply counts those who are actively trying to get a job. Neither counting everyone without a job, nor excluding eveyrone that isnt receiving unemployment would be a very honest measure either.
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
We still do not even come close to understanding each other. I feel ok with that. You feel I "... need to step back and re-read some things."
I don't understand how you think anybody is getting "fucked over." How are they getting fucked over? Because someone can find them? If that's the definition of fucked over, I want to know what the hell it's called to go through some of the shit that I've been calling fucked over for my whole life. Well, at least since I was old enough to swear.
Lets put it this way. You fall into a coma due to an accident. You get put on life support. Now someone comes and makes a "no work/no health care" law. So they come and pull the plug from you, you lazy bastard. All the while, they chant "No free lunch! No free lunch!" Would you say that you got fucked over?
No, if I was on life support unplug my ass. Unless I'm going to make a full recovery, I don't want to be plugged in. I'd be pissed if I woke up 30 years later without use of my body and confused why my wife is now an old woman and my kids are married.
You cannot chose to work as an invalid any more than a homeless person who does not want to work can choose. The choice comes from the past, you attack them in the present.
I think that people who choose not to work and don't shouldn't be entitled to anything. Not a damn thing. Let them fuck themselves over. I'm tired of them picking fights with me on the metro because I dress nice and work for it, and they think they're entitled to the change in my pocket. I've taught a man to fish, and he begged for fire right after. I'm done with that game, you want my money I have work for you to do. There is a difference between unwilling and unable. Unwilling doesn't gets you jack and shit in my world, and jack just left town.
I HAVE talked to many homeless. Some want to work, many do not. Your primary interest lies in finding homeless people who want to fit in and "rehabilitate" them, by which you mean making them act like you and work for 40 hours per week and have a house. You think giving them all jobs will "help them out".
You nailed it: many do not. So fuck those people. Cut them up and feed them to other people who do want to work at the shelter. Soylent Green for all!
I don't expect anybody to act like me, and I don't want anybody to act like me. One of me is enough for any world. What I do want is not to be harassed by people unwilling to work, and expect a free lunch. If someone wants to make a living and get some money, I'll help them out if I can but not for free. I worked on a ranch when I was 12 and 13 to buy computer parts. That's physically harder work than 90% of the people in America can even imagine as adults.
What you fail to understand, what many fail to understand, can get summed up as follows. THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY TO LIVE! Just different ways of living.
Absolutely, but when the people who live in similar ways as me pay for those who don't we get a say as to how our money is spent. I don't give bums change when I walk, and I hate my tax dollars are spent at shelters for people who just don't want to work. I would gladly donate to a charity setup to build a home for the mentally ill homeless people. It wouldn't work, because a lot wouldn't go live there, but it'd get some of them cleaned up and at least happier.
I measure it all in everybodies happiness. You should also visit Portland, OR which seemingly has more homeless people than New York City (Bill O'Reilly just said that, as well.) If the minority is a little less happy, so the majority is a lot more happy, that is just fine by me.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
"The point is that right now, if you were desperate enough, you *could* give that all up and flee into anonymity. They're attempting to remove that hole."
There's a way to do that without ever leaving home. And NO the power company doesn't NEED your SSN.
Substance abuse has a component of volition.
Certainly there is an aspect of cehmical dependence, but I drink Mt. Dew because I like the effect that it has on me. It provides a chemical stimulant that gives me some positive results, and some negative results.
When I have quit caffiene, I have headaches and lethargy - once my body adjusts, those things go away. When I have started to use caffiene again, it was by my free will.
Some people are quite happy to live in a state of chemical dependence - no matter what programs you make available to them at the taxpayer's expense.
Respectfully,
Anomaly
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
...I mean, those proletarians...they're not like us, they don't even use good speak, and certainly don't practice good thought. A tracking system can only be beneficial to the entire society. The proles are badly in need of some re-education by the Ministry of Love anyway.
now if you'll excuse me, I must go turn in my parents for being terrorist sympathizers.
I created a slashdot account just so I could respond in this forum.
Yes, I am a homeless man. I choose to be homeless. Don't think I'm one of those "mentally sick" homeless people, I live in my own car because it suits my needs better than a house. I work on both the east and the west coast of North America as well I enjoy hunting and salmon fishing in Oregon and then help being a cattle puncher in Nebraska and Wisconsin and Montanna. Part of the reason being without a house is because I am also a verry talented preacher. I preach upon Jesus Christ's legacy and what the Old Testament means to both sinner and Jew. From what I've received from the Harvest crusade on the east coast, as well as the church-registered-corporation "Calvary" sermons, I am quite dismayed by such incorrect and slanderous teachings. So, I'm often traveling everywhere. Besides just traveling to preach and work, I also code software in the night-hours. I am also creating a sniff map of WiFi and 802.11 networks are around the freeways where I travel. I don't have a wife, because I have decided it would conflict with my life's mission. I am not saying I can have any woman I want, I just want to live as a freeman.
Aside from my boggle of overactivity, you are correct to suspect that UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT is trying to do more than just map the homeless. Let me tell you, we don't need tracking devices to "sniff" homeless packets from the spectrum; you know who's homeless and you know who is also an mentally-ill-homeless. RFID'ing all the homeless does not solve the issue. But let's talk about where the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT has the ability to spend money when it wants and not for services rendered. First, sad to say it, in my experience I have found that the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT is a corporation. I found this out when I was a contractor in Pennsylvania. God has blessed the Amish with a passion for serving Jehova through their zealousness in Jesus Christ's testimony. They taught me a good amount of information. Apparently, there is a Republic known as the "united States of America" and this doesn't have a government. What I discovered is that Pennsylvania is a commonwealth. As well Colorado territory has two governors: a "governor of the State of Colorado" and a "Governor of Colorado State." This boggles the mind, I know. I discovered what I means...The republic has been somewhat "outcasted and dismantled" and a Democracy was formed by a foreign corporation known as "UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT" and registered patents for the tradmarks "UNITED STATES" and "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" and "AMERICA" and "USA" and "US." How it works is a bunch of Federal Franchises of the Federal Reserve were established ontop of the states and these corporations (as they are called) were incorporated after the guise "STATE OF _". They are around to emancipate as many people outside of "We, the People" and into being a "citizen of the United States". How it worked, first of all, is at the end of the Civil War; President Lincoln created a corporation known as UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT and it was financed by the european banks. "We, the People" didn't create the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT corporation, it was technicaly created foreign the "We, the People". And what is worse, everyone and everybody (corporations and corporate soles) more-so fall for the scheme. When you see a "Constitution of the United States", it begins with "We the peopel of the United States" and that should flip a bunch of red peizo-electric buzzers in everyone's heads; because "We, the People" are not of the United States because a corporation (business fiction) is not sovereign and did not create "We, the People." The reason why you can't find the "original constitution of the thirteen united States of America" is the same reason: foreign corporations don't need to keep track of someone else's documents, yet in the sense of a foreign corporation intent on usurping and manifesting as a friend, it adopts the original constitution and modifies it ever so slight
barcodes fade/blur/stretch/wrinkls with age. that's why embedded RF chips are the way to go!
I see Windows, I see Mac. I see Linux on the rack.
You're 100% right. If re-elected, Bush and his cronies will do everything in their power to get us, the rabble, under control. That's why this has to stop now. Get off your butt, register to vote, help out on the campaign of a candidate running against Bush, and throw his and Ashcroft's ass out of office.
It depends on you, and nobody but you to get it done.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
I just said that some folks like to scam the system.
I have no problem with provision of treatment for people who want help, but I really believe that many folks take advantage of the system due to low accountability and the fallacy that substance abuse is entirely a medical problem.
e.g. It's not my fault.....I'm genetically predisposed to [alcoholism,cocaine,crack,other chemical] -
puhleeze - I have the apparent genetic tendency for alcoholism in my family. This is not an issue for me. I simply don't drink. Problem avoided.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
You could always just get them some of these nifty earrings...
How are they getting fucked over? Because someone can find them? If that's the definition of fucked over, I want to know what the hell it's called to go through some of the shit that I've been calling fucked over for my whole life.
*laugh* The cart always comes before the horse with you. It has nothing to do whatever with "getting tracked" Vs "no healthcare". You can only see the cause/effect relationship. These things do not seem as separate to me. The consequence of this decision means that some people will not get health care that they currently get due to consequences beyond their control. That's getting fucked over.
The shit you call getting fucked over has no difference between this situation and itself. As long as we always go out to "fix" the problems we create by our "fixes", we will continue to fuck everyone over. We really don't have to do anything at all.
Unless I'm going to make a full recovery, I don't want to be plugged in. I'd be pissed if I woke up 30 years later without use of my body and confused why my wife is now an old woman and my kids are married.
And if you woke up a week later, would you feel the same way? Whine about the "lost week"? I think not.
I think that people who choose not to work and don't shouldn't be entitled to anything.
Ha ha! The jig is up! You don't even think they should get this healthcare in the first place. You don't like the game where everyone gets a bit of food and some medicine from society. They MUST work. But that game just doesn't work for some people. So you want to remove any ability for them to live, i.e. kill them. See what a monstrous murder you are?!?!
What I do want is not to be harassed by people unwilling to work, and expect a free lunch.
Yep. You want life to always go your way. And you feel perfectly willing to kill to do it. So you really don't seem like an individual to me, just another murderous asshole created by civilization and greed. I feel ok with that. But you want to deny it!
If the minority is a little less happy, so the majority is a lot more happy, that is just fine by me.
So would everyone else. Your style of living has ultimate supremacy in this world. And it eats at you every day. But you could just as easily recognize that all of your little so called "individual" opinion just came to you based on your past experiences and the knowledge gained from others. You really haven't said one original word. And neither have I! *laugh* How can one such as you do anything good at all? Why even live like that? And who is the "you" that wants to change things?
Good luck!
Jt
I take notice of your implied negative averment.
:) I like it all and as I travel I map all the wireless networks in PostrgreSQL database on my laptop. I choose to be homeless. But don't ask about girlfriends and wives... :)
a) Some people don't have a job per se, they have people work for them instead, such as by being a corporator or proprieter and taking a yearly draw from their organization's earnings, (including non-domestic defacto corporations run by hookers)
b) Taxation is only by consent, and there is no problem with paying no taxes when they are not receiving services that derive taxes. What part of Taxation without representation do you not understand?
c) Some people need to smoke pot for physical reasons, while some smoke it for neurological or emotional reasons. I am not anyone's master, I'm my own Master and at that I am a creditor. I do not dictate morality to other people and I do not adminster medical services to people WHEN THEY DON'T ASK FOR MY REGULATION OF SUCH.
d) Sadly, this is his choice.
The best thing you can do for your Father-in-Law is pray for his return to good health. Someone that feels the need to be drunk and smoke pot must have a serious medical condition. As for not having a job and not having to pay taxes, there is constitutional reason for such. And for being homeless, I probably met him because I also am homeless.
I registered on slashdot to respond to some comments on this forum. I am homeless and in my line of work I don't pay taxes because according to the laws established in this Republic there is not lawful authority that derives taxation of my life. For some background, I live in my car and do alot of travel because I work all over America in different parts of the year. Some parts of the year I will be punching cattle in Nebraska or Montana or Wisconsin, while other parts of the year (summer or winter) I'll be hunting or fishing or crabbing or writing code.
For God's sake, don't put the rabbit tags on them or they'll start reproducing even FASTER...
(here endeth the sarcasm)
They need a GPS more then you for sure...
Do you even know what socialism is? Judging from your answer, I'd say no. Taxes != Socialism. Read a book.
So just who is it that is getting robbed?
Taxes are not theft. They are a bill. If you don't like your bill, you have the freedom to propose other ways of paying the bill or find another country where the bills are to your liking. Portraying taxes as theft, though, is simply false, as false as refusing to make your car payment because you think someone else got a better deal on that car than you did.
BTW: If you think you're being stolen from, then by all means leave the country for one with lower taxes. If you despise democracy so much, it might please you to know that Somalia has no universally recognized government at this time. No taxes! Just guns and violence and poverty and disease and war and sand. Should fit you well.
I could easily say that your experience does not make for a trend, either.
I agree that an unwillingness to help others is a sign of an unhealthy society. I think that many of the well-intentioned people who build social programs fail to grasp the fact that one simply cannot legislate morality.
When the checks and balances are put in place that will provide accountability of the programs and of the participants it is merely human nature that some number of them will find a loophole thereby to game the system.
It's unfortunately not a simple solution. How do you provide services to people who need help and at the same time make people personally responsible for their choices?
My father in law is a smart cookie, and I'm sure he could find a way to take the "easy" path - regardless of the amount of work it took to avoid work.
The man I knew when I was in college - who worked as a waiter so that he could have some means of support other than the income he derived from dealing crack was another example of our social services gone awry. I don't recall the exact number, but he had something like seven kids - all from the same mother. They would not get married because she would lose her WIC benefits.
Something is wrong with our "safety net" when it bears the weight of people who refuse to play by the rules.
Sure there are sick people - who need meds to alter their brain chemistry - who need a shoulder to cry on - who need a helping hand of food or cash to make it through a dark period. We have an obligation as members of a civil society to reach out and help others.
Finally - I believe that some of the social services issues in the US are an indictment against the Christian community - Christians should take the lead in providing for the downtrodden in society. The fact that the government has so many takers for social programs shows that needs are going unmet.
I don't believe that Christians should carry the weight of those who will not provide for themselves. The Bible says "if a man will not work, he should not eat." If you are capable but are lazily taking advantage of the social system, shame on you, and shame on us for not figuring out how to keep from giving you a handout.
Respectfully,
Anomaly
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
The document says nothing about national security.
I take that back, the document says nothing about this being done for national security, just that the information can be released according to national security guidelines and that the person can see who accesses their records unless it's for national security reasons.
I don't agree with this part of the document.
Harry
Looks like everybody's missing the point here. What is the major roadblock for government when they want to trample on somebody? Their legal rights. Do they like this? No.
So, what they do is start by eroding the rights of a group nobody cares about.
(We all know by now surely that the so-called logical fallacy of the "thin end of the wedge" isn't a fallacy at all, it's just a description of a well-worn strategy that always works when your enemy is sufficiently complacent.)
Already, if this becomes law, the homeless will have virtually no right to privacy. And if the state wants to track you, and they think it will be difficult to get permission, all they will have to do is make you homeless. Easily done.
Eventually, when the homeless have altogether become "non-persons" in the eyes of the law, the next small step will be to extend this category of non-persons to include the unemployed. And it's even easier to make somebody unemployed.
It's anybody's guess where it will go from there.
"Holy shit you're right. The government shouldn't know my social security number! This is ridiculous!"
My concern is not that the government knows somebody's social security number. My concern is that all of this information (Income, race, medical history, etc.) will be easily acessable from a central database. Right now I'm required to tell Uncle Sam about my income so that he can get his "fair" share, but why should my race and medical history be associated with that information?
I consider my personal information to be just that... personal. If someone wants to know my race, medical history, sexual preference, cultural heritage, marital status, eating habits, etc. they should have to go through some amount of difficulty to find out.
In a world of such vast amounts of public information, the small amount of privacy I have is quite valued.
The government is just trying to open a new door. Im sure that it will stay under control. Just like Spam did, seriously, when did someone get Spam? just doesn't happen right, right, somebody give me an amen..
Once again, another misuse of the Social Security Number. This should only be used for tax purposes. Of course, who would want to steal a homeless person's identity.
On the other hand, why would the homeless have Social Security Numbers if they never had a job in the first place?
Quid quid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
If they really want to live "off the grid" and not participate in society, screw 'em
You seem to be implying that most homeless people are homeless by choice. When in fact it is quite the opposite.
Homelessness is a fault of the given society, not the individual. The more people in a society are similar, the better that society works.The perfect society would be one of clones. Individuals are all different and acceptance is key. Just because some don't have the same lifestyle as the "ones in charge" this does not mean they should pay for it.
Ahh yes, the days when we had privacy are over. All because of the stupid poor people who are willing to get rid of their freedom for a little bit of extra safety (That's not even a guarentee). I agree, we are next. We already have tons of cameras recording our actions in public, and tracking is next! People, don't give away your freedom. What's left of it anyway.
Gotta fear the homeless, there is nothing more dangerous than someone who has nothing to lose and who does not care about material wealth. :))
Having said that, it's time for me and my cart to move on, I got my complimentary donut and they even let me use the PC for a whole hour!
# traceroute www.nsa.gov
traceroute to 65.213.217.241 (www.nsa.gov) 64 hops max, 44 byte packets
1 hobo-pc-21751250.hobo.surveillance.nsa.gov (65.213.216.19) 9.205 ms * *
^C
The truth about HMIS:
No, I'm not implying homeless people are homeless by choice. From what I've read, many homeless people are suffering from mental or physical health problems and if they had the faculties, would request the appropriate assistance. In this case, society is responsible for taking care of this part of the population.
If the homeless are just "down on their luck", then society is responsible to provide them assistance to get back to being a integral part of society.
What I was implying is that if one has mental and physical health and makes the rational decision to not participate in society, then you should in no way associate with any people in any way.
Looking at dictionary.com, one can summarize the definition of society as "social relationships among people". To me this means any two or more people can be a society. And if you choose not to be a part of ANY society, you cannot form social relationships with any person and hence must go through life completely alone and without assistance from ANY persons.
Maybe I'm looking at it in manner that is too black and white, but to me, one is either "off" or "on" the grid. You can't choose when you'd like to be part of society.
isn't this sort dissemination of medical information prohibited under the HIPPA regulations?
Oh wait, if its part of 'homeland security', privacy doesn't apply...
Nor do rules,laws,freedoms....
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Those tags through the ear have gotta hurt! Or would they band them?
Send out roving teams of scientists. Shoot the homeless with tranquilizers. Attach an ear tag. Of course, there has to be a standard tag with a color/ letter code to indicate state and region. Whenever the homeless migrate, they will be able to track them on a database that will be available to scientists across the US. The data can then be used to see migratory patterns and figure out how to curtail their movement into prosperous areas of the country. Furthermore, hunting liscenses should be issued. Shoot as many "bucks" as you like, but you can only shoot one "doe" per season. Different seasons can include, bow and arrow, black powder and shotgun. Thorstein
Talk about a nanny state. At least half of these people should have been institutionalized. The other don't want to be found in the first place. But this is the government, and they've got to have total control over everybody everywhere.
to anybody who has had their children "snatched" by social workers / family courts / worthless drunken girlfriends. How many of you are dads? How many of you have custody? Is there anybody who thinks there is still any freedom left to defend?
... and we all set - instant urban mesh network!
It is abhorrent that people will be given different rights (what was that bill of rights thingy again?) dependant purely upon their economic situation!
The fact that it is intentionally targetting those least equipped to defend their rights is more than a cynical self-serving decision. It is downright criminal.
Begine Rhetorical Questions:
How many of the homeless suffer from various mental and physical difficulties?
How many will avoid the aforementioned shelters etc., purely on the basis of the infringment of their rights?
Who thinks that this information will not be seriously abused by those parties given access?
The homeless are generally not born that way: they are members of our families, they are your old school teacher, your best friend.
In my first year at Uni I ended up without a roof over my head or food to eat. It was only through the homeless shelters and soup kitchens that I was able to survive in the sub-zero temperatures.
Should I have been "tagged" because of this?
Should I have been penalised for coming from a low income demographic?
Should I have given implicit consent for any interested government agency to track my movements at the merest whim?
I graduated years ago, have a wife and 1.5 kids (ETA january for #2 :), a well-paying job in IT, and all round I am an exemplary citizen. I am not sure I would be here and now if it had been a choice between RFID tagging and probable death. I mean this in all seriousness.
Please, lets show a bit of humanity in our treatment of humans...
Q.
P.S. If you are American - please object loudly and often.
Insert Signature Here
yeah, the homeless are all potential terrorists.
I say, don't tag the homeless, ARM THEM!
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
I'm not sure, but I would assume that the CDC kept a record of "regular" folks diagnosed as HIV+, or other contagious diseases (TB, etc)
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to the mark of the beast technology. Without the mark one cannot buy or sell. Look at what's happening now in society and what has been going on for a good number of years.
In the future when EVERYONE has to have a mark (whatever form that may take) to buy or sell, you may remember this part from the Bible, or you may laugh to comfort yourself from facing the truth.. after all, YOU would be able to buy and sell, you have the mark! How unfortunate for those who don't, how can they make a living?
I reject any mark of the beast like system.
You mean it's the '80's again?? Oh dear god, if I turn on the radio and Kajagoogoo comes out I'm throwing myself out the window.
How about giving homeless people a gawddamn HOME!
Nothing fancy, just a room with a bathroom, bed, and fridge.
Then stop exporting jobs to Bangalore and Taipei.
Make everyone who has more than 10 million pay for all.
The purpose of HUD is to move niggers into our neighborhoods..
Dats right crackuh, Iz bees talkn bout crack smokin, watermelon jackn, gun totin, White girl rapin nigguz...
HUD is gonna move the gutter monkeys in so they can rape your little White daughters and make more little zebra niglets.
Sounds like good idea to track and register the homeless. It makes it so much easier prepare them for the upcoming homeless concentration camps. That kind of gradual approach has worked very well for the back than absolutely rightful, authoritative, and unquestionable German government in respect to Jews. Oh, and it can be easily extended to anyone else besides our homeless fellow citizens.
If you give someone an excessive amount of power, and the notion that they should make the world a better place, they will almost always go to far. They will be condescending and therefore fail to empathize with others as human beings. They'll try to do good, but like Bush strutting through the darkies' deserts, will fuck everything up.
To wit, (908) 756-7223.
> Hospitals are required by law to treat everybody, regardless of ability to pay.
Just to be an ass, I'll refine that by saying not all hospitals have to treat everyone. In many states, if there are multiple hospitals in a region, then, usually, only one has to be the charity hospital for that region.
Will any of you posters complaining about this issue actually do something other than post on Slashdot?
Everyone I spoke to is against this type of tracking system. If we actually do have a democratic government, as our current government likes us to believe, how do we go about stopping this type of abuse of power?
Who can we write to? What can we do? How can we be sure the folks who are currently in charge will listen to the voice of the people of our country?
What is their defininition of home?
Without an address? I feel for all of the people who have retired and are living on the road in a Winnebago! Technically they qualify.
For that matter it could be any residence worth $100,000 or less! or ALL renters since they do not own what they are sleeping and living in!
In fact this could all be targeted at everyone living in remote regions of the U.S. who are survivalists!
It's a very scary new world sometimes. WWIII is going to really suck. It's coming. What to do?!
Radio collars.
Then we can see if Igor can migrate home safely after being orphaned.
Lots of petrified grits
My wife is a social worker and her place of work has used this program for at least a couple years now. In fact she worked with it's predecessor "Anchor," a system that did much the same thing (and horrifyingly was a database that used Microsoft Access 2.0 as it's dbms)
In short, the government has been using this system and similar systems since at least the middle of the Clinton administration.
As such, I hesitate to regard it as part of the administration's evil plan to take over the world. Especially if they're still using Access 2.0.
While it's not impossible that something like it could be used to create TIA, it seems unlikely. Thi s particular database system is fairly specialized to track use of services by those in poverty.
Social work agencies are required to track these things as part of their grants. For some reason the government wants to know it's funds aren't being wasted.
In this sense it's a good thing. It's also a good thing in the sense that it helps avoid fraud on the part of the person wanting the aid (let me assure you that this sort of fraud exists...).
That being said, I don't at all like the idea that the Secret Service can take a peak at any time and my wife will probably be forwarding info on all this to her supervisor tomorrow...
The 14th Ammendment was not lawfully ratified. The "South" was held under a state of Martial Law by the "North" and without their representation the 14th Ammendment was not lawfully ratified by Congress. The Congress signed die and has never returned to session. President Lincoln created a corporation "UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT" and the European bankers financed its creation. The original commercial charter of the "united States of America" only had jurisdiction upon 10 square miles of land it was anexxed by Lord Baltimore of Maryland (Rome), while the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT exists on the same land and is not limited by the original constitution.
"We, the People" are not the same as "citizens of the United States".
"We, the People" created a "Constitution for the thirteen united States of America"
President Abraham Lincoln and the foreigners (specifically european bankers) created and financed the "UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT" and patented the tradmarks "UNITED STATES" and "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" and "USA" and "AMERICA".
"citizen of the United States" is contractual and is not lawful to force people to become such. State citizenship is only by residence of a one of the established territorities and does not waive rights. Federal franchise corporations, known as STATE OF _ corporations, are not states; they are corporations and are not of the Republic.
Returning to the bankrupty of the U.S. Government, let's play quote whore:
"Mr. Speaker, we are here now in chapter 11. Members of Congress are official trustees presiding over the greatest reorganization of any bankrupt entity in world history, the US Government...It is an established fact that the United States Federal Government has been dissolved by the Emergency Banking Act, March 9, 1933, 48 Stat. 1, Public Law, 89-719; declared by President Roosevelt, being bankrupt and insolvent....The receivers of the United States Bankruptcy are the International Bankers, via the United Nations, the World Bank, and the International Monetary Fund. All United States Offices, Officials, and Departments are now operating within a de facto status in name only under Emergency War Powers. With the Constitutional Republican form of Government now dissolved, the receivers of the Bankruptcy have adopted a new form of government for the United States. This new form of government is known as a Democracy, being an established Socialist/Communist order..." -James Trafficant
You are all conquered and don't even know it
Chart: They took your money and did just what Thomas Jefferson said would happen if they were allowed to regulate its use.
Don't be sucked in by lies, anthony. I gave you reading material that says otherwise of your post. Where is the "reading material" for you to uphold your testimony? Where is your proof of claim in your commercial liability, of course supported by a notarized affidavit stating your claim is materialy complete and correct and true?
Your best source of information is http://familyguardian.tzo.com
Why is the tracking system homeless?
They proposed to track the homeless, and I could not care a shit because, he, who care about a bum. Then they extended the program to the criminal and I found it good. After all they are menace to society. Afterward they tracked the foreigner. Who knows, they could be terrorist. Then it went down to track atheist, and I could not agree more, they aren't real citizen since they aren't bathing in the light of God. Afterward they said I was going to be tracked in my everyday life, and I tried to protest, but nobody was there anymore to defend me.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
You won't have to worry about them receiving Social Security Income.
Why don't we start with unemployed and evicted slashdot trolls.
You are all enforcing the stereotype that homeless people are poor. We are not all poor. I am homeless, yet I have made millions during the dot com boom. Homelessness is a philisophy of life. It is the spiritual path that many have chosen for many thousands of years and I'm proud to continue the tradition. Only in suffering can we perceive ourselves in the truest light.
Now, even though I spend my nights in a 4-star hotel, I have this unbreakable connection with my fellow brothers and sisters on the streets. I understand what it's like to not be able to rely on anyone or anything, or being able to have any security whatsoever. It's 4 months until my house in Los Altos hills is complete, and it's been an enlightening one, connecting with those on the street who lack a home like me.
Judge us not, for we are the meek and will inherit the earth. You are not our shepherds.
. . .gee, they just gave it to me - twice - after three months.
It's not paranoia. Your Aunt would be correct.
Check yourself.
Your mouth is like Columbus Day.
I'd say - and no, you didn't ask, but thanks - part of the problem might just stem family members applying the criteria: "someone who doesn't want to change" to a parent both chronically drunk and stoned.
Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
The document says nothing about national security. It is about managing and predicting needed services for homeless, veterans, runaways and battered women.
And that's exactly the problem. It's not the federal governments job to manage and predict needed services for homeless, veterans, runaways and battered women.
I also find it hard to believe we need to worry about homeless as threats to national security, but, as with any database administered by the gov't, insert paranoia as needed.
Wasn't the serial sniper homeless?
so do you mean the scan is.. need or maybe old age? or is it retirement? or is it getting beat by life?
old folks need to be cared for. and, regardless of your income & motivation, today, don't count on things being the same when you're at retirement age.
things can change a person's life, and make them not up to working a structured job. that doesn't make them crooks, and it doesn't lessen their need to for care.
work is what you do when you're: healthy, happy, energetic, optimistic, able to find employment, living in a good economy, able to buckle under to a supervisor, able to justify paying taxes to the New World Order, educated, racially and linguistically employable, not an addict, etc, etc, etc. just pick one of these, tweek it, and, for whatever reason, you might have an "unemployable person."
that's not a crook. it's a person without a job.
why don't you talk to some homeless, sometime? see if they look/sound, face to face, like people who should be denied toothpaste, a shower, laundry, food and a doctor once they hit age 55 on the street. or who should submit to databasing just to get help?
the u.s. defense budget for 2003 was $379 billion. over $1000 per american. for weapons that would SCAR YOU FOR LIFE, if you saw them used on another human being (communist or not).
and there's a bum on the street who needs some money. maybe a beer, b/c life kicked the shit out of him. which one's the SCAM?
i hope you don't have to find this out the hard way, but our system doesn't always produce "happy little worker machines who go out and shop all weekend." there are some folks out there who can't cope in that world.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
What, you were homeless for how long?Tw0-three days when your gay boyfriend kicked you out and yourn pepaw and maw-maw decided to give you back the guest house out back of the mansion?What a weak-minded homo ypou are.punk.
The Inner Party were watched, but they had a limited amount of freedom (i.e, they were allowed to turn off their telescreens for limited amounts of time).
The Outer Party (of which Winston was a member) were watched continuously.The Poletarians, as you say, could do pretty much what they wanted to.
We hang the petty thieves, but appoint the great ones to public office. - Aesop
Very insightful.
An HMIS provides significant opportunities to improve access to, and delivery of, services for people experiencing homelessness.
Homelessness is an experience, not a symptom of a broken or missing social security system?
describe the scope of homelessness? honestly? "This one's a bit homeless today, what shall we do with him?" "Nothing, that one over there looks far more homeless to me!"
Remember, kids, in soviet Russia, homelessness experiences you!
If the bums are paid to fight then they have income! They should be taxed on their earnings like all upstanding citizens.
See my journal, I write things there
Maybe they should them give badges to be worn all the times, so the homeless can be recognized on sight?
--
"The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
And according to tv, letters with just a picture of a tardis on them made their way to the Dr. Who appreciation society.
Why don't we just ear-tag the homeless with RFID's and track their migration like an endangered species?
Too expensive, and too easily removed. I say bar code 'em! Tattoo it where it's easily seen. Wait, that'd take too long and require them to hold still long enough...
I know! Heat up those branding irons!
Works for cattle, and isn't that what politicians consider us anyway?
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through my restraints.
Why not use ear tags and radio collars? I'd rather see my tax dollars hanging around some homeless guy's neck than being spent to curtail my dwindling civil liberties, anyway.
He sounds like a general loser, alcoholic, drug addict. I know quite a few successful potheads BTW, but thats not the point. I'm sure there are successful crackheads on capitol hill passing laws too. One man's lazy shiftlessness does not mean everyone else is... yeah I know you said "some people" choose it. But I still think youre trying to push a generalization. Actually tackling this guy and forcing him to wear a big red tracking tag through a hole in his ear might motivate him to get off his ass and do something.
This is how it starts. They say they do it to protect the homeless of course, and if you want to know how it ends, watch that episode.
The worst is, there won't be any reaction from the /. crowd because they can't think of any non-electronical way to protest this ;)
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
You know what? Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
Eat
my
ass
prick.
Begging your pardon....What exactly do you mean?
We would love for him to change, and have offered to assist him in many productive ways. We are available to help him - we provide food and lodging when he comes to visit, we provide transportation to doctors, have offered to help him get his drivers' license, have assisted with clarifying issues with service providers (doctors, social service agencies, etc.)
We love him and want a real, deep emotionally connected relationship. We recognize that he is mentally impaired, affected by drugs, etc - but each of us has the capacity to respond to unconditional love.
Love - even unconditional love is not the same thing as 'being nice' to people or just doing what they want. Love and accountability are two sides of the same coin.
If a person is holding a gun to their head and says that they really want to kill themselves, I submit to you that intervention is far more loving than "being nice" and letting them pull the trigger.
We love him the way he is, but we love him too much to want him to stay that way. It's the same way that God loves all of us.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
No one should be homeless in the US... If you think these people are homeless not due to life choices than you are a fucking idoit. Let them rot if they do not want help.. all the left wing whiners had the mental homes shutdown and not these nuts and crack heads are running aound.... That's the way it is you pussy left wing fuckers
... tracking collars for out-of-work programmers?
The cart always comes before the horse with you. It has nothing to do whatever with "getting tracked" Vs "no healthcare". You can only see the cause/effect relationship. These things do not seem as separate to me. The consequence of this decision means that some people will not get health care that they currently get due to consequences beyond their control. That's getting fucked over.
This is the point of disagreement between us. There are no consequences beyond their control. Everything in life is a result of your actions. There is no such thing as "beyond your control."
You don't even think they should get this healthcare in the first place. You don't like the game where everyone gets a bit of food and some medicine from society. They MUST work. But that game just doesn't work for some people. So you want to remove any ability for them to live, i.e. kill them. See what a monstrous murder you are?!?!
You are right, I don't think they should. I think it's a bullshit construct of society. Why are they more entitled to things than me? Why do I have to pay for my food, and they get it for free? Why do I have to pay huge amounts for health care, when they can get it for free? Doesn't seem fair to me, doesn't seem right. If I got the same benefits they had, than I wouldn't mind . I don't, so I do mind. Yeah, I'm "rich". So fucking what? I worked my ass off to get where I'm at, so why do I have to support these people who are just too damned lazy to do what I did?
So you really don't seem like an individual to me, just another murderous asshole created by civilization and greed.
This is where you don't understand me. All I desire is equality and nothing more. Don't harass me, and I won't harass you. It's a simple rule: Treat others as you like to be treated.
I like to be independant and support myself, so I treat others in the same manner. If you think thats greed, than you need to go find a dictionary and look that term up again.
How can one such as you do anything good at all?
By giving people an opportunity who need it, which I have. I've tried to rebuild quite a few peoples lives. Most of the time they don't want to do the work, and go back to their previous life. Fine by me. How many lives have you helped directly?
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
A few years ago I worked on a similar system with the Dept. of Mental Health Mental Retardation trying to track homeless individuals who were mentally ill. The main problem is WHAT to track them by. Here's why SSN's won't work:
1. Many of the homeless do not have SSN's
2. Most won't give you a REAL name.
3. Very few trust government agencies enough to provide the necessary information to get SSN's
This created HUGE problems in the database trying to track aliases and such. I left the project before it was completely implemented but I don't believe it ever had any success.
In the personal area. I don't think this is a good idea because to me it seems to be a method for the government to limit it's services to just those who have SSN's. It won't work that way. There are estimates saying that as many as 80% of all homeless individuals are mentally ill, and most have chemical dependcies. I work with the homeless on a weekly basis through my church. It is a constant battle to overcome thes issues. I think we do have to start somewhere, but Tracking isn't the way.
John Swaringen Geek In The Heart Of Texas...
Just a thought... how many homeless people have (or use) their social-security numbers? I would think many of them don't bother to present their SSN when asking the local shelter for soup, so how are they going to be tracked by those numbers?
I was proposing everyone get the tatoo, that way you could judge a book by it's cover, in one respect.
WTF? Over?
Here's a brief sense of the security checks:
Here's a break-down of who can get access to the personal private information with varying levels of consent and knowledge by the client.
I see some potential for problems here, but nothing egregious. The problems lie elsewhere. I went through the trouble of making this listing because I bet it's similar to other datamodels used in other governmental MIS systems. Which is to say, I don't much worry about my info being in this homeless database, but it's instructive nonetheless, because it's a rare example (at least for me) of what other databases like this may look like.
The real potency of DoD's TIA initiative came from the widespread existence of these minor databases. If you're not in the homeless database, you may be in the military database, or maybe in your city or county's DMV database, etc. etc.. As long as they're all separate, it's not feasible to track your information through them. TIA was envisioned as a monumental effort to cross that particular chasm, and the effects, I think, would have been terrible.
Making our government more manageable is in itself not necessarily desireable. Just making it more manageable may just make it a more tempting prize to despots, like, in my opinion, the current administration.
We have to make our government more open and more equitable as we make it more manageable to ensure the right outcome.
I designed, built and operated a homeless tracking system in Seattle, tracking over 50,000 homeless persons, so I have some direct experience. City, state and federal governments are budgeting and spending millions of dollars on the homeless. There is a legitimate concern that the money be effective. It takes accurate information to do that. Over 60% of the homeless have physical or mental handicaps, or are chemically dependent. Many others are homeless for a wide variety of reasons (many more than you can imagine). Many homeless persons move fluidly from area to area. Many are homeless for decades. It is a legitimate interest of government that their millions of dollars are spent wisely and well, and in the best interest of the homeless. There are many privacy issues involved, and these have been wrestled with by many homeless shelter administrators. Other issues are lack of verifiable ID's for many many homeless. Some of the data will be worthless. Nevertheless, as a policy aid, the aggregrate of the data is desperately needed by HUD and other agencies which fund homeless assistance programs. (As a philosophical note, cities have struggled with what to do with the homeless since cities were invented in the middle ages, and before. No ideal solution has ever been found, but banning, institutionalizing, killing, ignoring and assisting have all been tried over the ages).
Is this really a mystery to you? Perhaps you missed the part where he said, "I was hanging out in a particular location on a regular basis." Mr. Bill Collector is tracking down Shawn. He calls around, maybe talking to someone at a former work place, pretending to be a family member or someone who needs to talk to Shawn for some deeply important, personal reason. Former co-worker says, "He hangs around the 7-11 at the corner of State and Main." Bill collector looks up the number of that 7-11, talks to clerk, clerk hasn't heard of Shawn but thinks he might be the guy who hangs out outside a lot and obligingly gives the number of the pay phone. Mr. Collector starts calling; most of the time he either gets nothing or someone else picks up, but he keeps trying until he gets Shawn. Maybe he tries every five minutes, or every hour, but eventually he hits paydirt.
Sound unlikely? Well, that's how bill collectors operate; no psychic powers or mad detective skillz needed, just thoroughness and persistence, along with a little social engineering and knowledge of certain information tools. Some work on commission, some have a quota that they absolutely have to meet or else they'll get fired.
Now, that wasn't hard, was it?
I looked into the abyss, and the abyss looked into me--and we both winked.
i appreciate the libertarian ideal, but once you're on the street, how are you going to pull yourself up by the bootstraps?
let's say you decide to do so
or..are you just worried about your next meal, wondering if your campsite's gonna get raided, and how to hide your backpack?
there are a few programs to help people who've gotten into these circumstances, and i don't see much point in stickling the beneficiaries by forcing them to lose privacy to get help. it's HUMANITARIAN AID. so can't it be administered in a humanitarian way?
if you're worried about the money, target CORPORATE WELFARE. that's where it's bleeding.
somebody once told me that possession of 1000 hits of acid was prosecutable as "attempt to overthrow the government." personally, i think backroom corporate lobbyists (and the politicians who deal with them) should be prosecutable under that offense.
if you're worried about where the money goes, look there, rather than the pittance that makes its way to the homeless.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
I, too, am against this idea, but I find people's reaction to it here a bit curious. A lot of people think this is some sort of slippery slope that will start with the homeless and eventually come to the homes of whitebread America.
/. Your privacy and the protection of these records is a purely legal construct. The only thing that keeps government from tracking your every move is the fact that they cannot do anything to you with them, not that they can't see them, but that they can't use them in court without obeying the legal protections on them
I'm here to tell you, folks, that this is the END of the slippery slope, not the start of it. You and I are already tracked and trailed like you wouldn't believe. Employment records, insurance records, banking records, telephone records, ISP logs, credit card records, etc., etc. ad infinitum. Whitebread America is already trackable to great degree. The only people who are not are the people who have fallen out of the economy; the people who lie beneath the society.
Side note: I get angry when I see people bashing the law and lawyers here on
The only things that worry me about the new "post 9/11" era are:
1) Supra-legal tribunals (military courts)
2) PATRIOT Act erosion of those aforementioned protections.
For me, "Liberty" is what our country is about. Items 1 and 2 above may be good for our safety, but I don't think they are good for our Liberty. I, for one, do not want to destroy America to save it.
Let's remember that only two things stand between Liberty and Tyranny: The law, and force. Me, I choose the law. I think we are tipping the wrong way, but I have high hopes in the citizens of this country. I have high hopes that we have not forgotten that government serves the people and not the other way round. I have high hopes that fear will not make sheep out of us, and that we will remember that freedom, liberty, the Bill of Rights, are the reasons we love this country, not the accident of having been born here.
I have high hopes because every citizen in government employ, from the lowliest private in the Army to the President of the United States swears an oath of loyalty, not to the state, not to the country, but to The Consititution of the United States of America, and to defend THAT against all enemies, foreign and domestic. That oath was written by people who recognized that what defines America (or at least, what should define America) is a love of the fundamental rights of human beings as articulated in the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, and that the loyalty of Americans is measured not by geography, love of nation, or obedience to a ruler, but by fealty to the principles embodied in those documents.
A patriot loves the USA to the extent that the USA, and its citizen-government continues to adhere to the freedom of man (by which I mean "humanity" in modern inclusive language) as stated in those documents. The courage that our founders showed in putting ideas at the core of our national being, and suggesting that the natural loyalty of a US citizen should be, not to man, not to a state, not to a place, but to those ideas is the great gift that they gave to posterity.
It is up to us whether our nation remains worthy of their trust in us.
I agree with what seems to be the general opinion that there are much better ways to spend the government's money than on tracking the homeless; however, the tracking system itself is not all bad. The system only takes effect on those people who are seeking the help of a program, and therefore is only being used on the people who wish to be helped. Also, when the homeless fill out the required questionares for getting into a program, they are not required to actually provide any personal information (there is an option to refuse answering the questions), and they cannot be denied service as a result of refusing to answer. It seems that even if this money isn't being spent in the best way possible, it is an attempt to do a service for the homeless who wish to be helped by learning more about them and their needs, and it isn't forcing anyone to submit him/herself to being tracked on an individualistic basis.
Actually, I wonder about that. The Municipal one near here does credit checks for *every* account. To run that a SSN is almost required and allowed to require for that purpose (if I'm remembering right).
I'd love to find out more info about SSN requirements. I'll have to do some googling tonight...
You just wrote nicely into the heart of the mystery, didn't you. Into the heart of our powerlessness, really, to help even those we love.
In the end-you already know this-it's either in him or it isn't. Some people's bottom is death.The family's love can grace his days, either way.
Wishing you much luck.
> if you're worried about the money, target CORPORATE WELFARE. that's where it's bleeding
> if you're worried about where the money goes, look there, rather than the pittance that makes its way to the homeless.
Well, that's a good point, one that I agree with, but didn't quite think of it that way. I guess I am more upset about who IS getting the money as opposed to who SHOULD be getting it. What I should have really been complaining about is that my tax dollars are going to people who have more money than I do (or to those with less of it who just throw it away, ie state lottery), when it should be going to those who need it and will actually use it to further themselves; at the very least by staying alive when they wouldn't have otherwise.
As a general rule, you should assume that all information about a person, be it in a government or business database, is privy to Law Enforcement upon request (or court order, at worst). This is doubly true for the Secret Service; they get any and all information they want, even medical records.
Just because you don't like the idea of them doing this does not mean that they won't. If you put a program like this into operation, it will be used improperly. It is just a matter of time.
----------
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.