Whether you think Snowden is a hero or a traitor, I'd say the best political move Obama could make would be to pardon Snowden for any crimes he is accused of committing to date.
It would effectively silence Snowden as he could come home with the pardon in his pocket, assuming he keeps his mouth shut forever after. If Snowden continued leaks, then Snowden would be easy to turn into the bad guy
It would avoid a public trial (which would be awkward, assuming the government would even grant one).
It would avoid accusations of injustice (in case the trial was a secret one in Gitmo, or an unfortunate 'accident' occurred on his flight home).
Obama should do this after the 2016 election before he leaves office, as the hubbub will settle out and be forgotten by the 2018 midterm election. It would not satisfy Snowden's supporters (who think he should get a ticker tape parade) or his detractors (who think he should be imprisoned forever), but it would effectively halt the leaks and put the problem to bed with a minimum of fuss.
It would encourage other whistleblowers to come forth - something the government wants just about as much as they want to take power away from themselves.
So no, a presidential pardon for Snowden will never happen and if he returns he will be crucified.
Treason: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
He didn't levy war on us, he didn't adhere to our enemies, nor did he give them comfort. There is a flimsy argument that perhaps his actions gave aid to our enemies but if you roll with that reasoning then all of the people he exposed are also traitors so I'm not sure that's an argument the government would want to make.
He may be a criminal under the current laws, but he's not a traitor. Furthermore, if what he did was illegal then it's the law that is wrong and should be changed. The correct action would be for him to receive a presidential pardon followed by congress strengthening the whistleblower laws and a big shakeup at the NSA to root out their culture of taking activities beyond what they are authorized for. I'm afraid we don't live in that rosy alternate universe however.
It can all too easily be said that Snowden aided the enemies of the US, which is all the justification the US government needs to stick him in a cell forever.
Apparently, you do not have a clear understanding of how the US legal system works. If the DOJ makes a promise in a legal contract, it will have to follow that contract. To improperly reneg on that contract would jeopardize every legal contract the US government makes across the world. The US's power is embedded in law; to publicly violate it would unravel the US. And finally, you need to get a realistic grasp of Snowden's situation. His ability to further damage the US government is probably negligible. His value in "disappearing him into Gitmo" is also zero, because it will never happen with current protocols. He's negotiating jail time for "crimes" he knows he would be successfully prosecuted for, in exchange for the US to make the best "example" of Snowden they can manage. But the US DOJ will have to agree to operate above board, with a standard criminal prosecution; no "Star" courts.
Does the DOJ overrule 'National Security' and the shadow court that would no doubt handle Snowden's trial in secret 'to avoid further breaches of security'?
Legally, perhaps they do - in reality I'm not so sure.
And no one will care, you can stand out there all you like, you'll be ignored...
Or if you're with enough others, you'll have the Feds coordinating with local law enforcement to shut you down just like they did with Occupy Wall Street.
Right, where's the American spirit? The General Asshole did it for vanity, fame and money, in short, the American dream. And that idiot Snowden for "love of his country" and "moral values". Fuck that, you gotta monetize that shit! Giving away state secrets for free is so Un-American, you commie bastard!
Irony aside, what you're saying is the unsaid truth about the situation.
Patraeus is well connected and will probably come out of this relatively unscathed.
Snowden pissed off those in power enough that he's almost certainly fucked no matter what.
Yes, it will protect you. The government will still be able to intercept and listen to your calls, data and text, but they will be encrypted and they will not be able to know what you were talking about.
Expect NSA to hack Silent Circle to obtain the keys, though...
Looking on the Silent Circle website, it seems that there is a version for the US and a version for the ROW (rest of the the world). The ROW version 'cannot' be shipped to the US which implies that what you suggest may already be the case - at least for the US version.
If you actually read the article, it says "charges will likely hinge on the degree to which employees knew such activity was taking place." Nobody is going to get charged unless there's evidence that they knew they were hosting child porn and did nothing about it.
There is a question not answered by the article - namely did the police grab, and are they hacking into, sites that had nothing to do with the website they knew hosted porn or are they hacking into everything hosted by the hosting company?
Isreal will do whatever it feels like doing to expand it's borders and, secondarily, defend itself. Helping Muslims will not factor into it.
I disagree vehemently with a huge amount of what Israel does but they clearly aren't completely stupid. Jordan may not be the ideal neighbour but it is on the other side of around half their land border and infinitely better as a neighbour than Lebanon. Israel isn't going to just sit by and let Jordan get overrun by people who actively want to annihilate them, must easier to provide support to Jordan and fight in their territory.
While what you say may normally be correct tactically, it is not going to happen strategically, politically or religiously.
Israel will wait until they are directly threatened by whoever overruns Jordan and then they will attack in force using the exorcise as an excuse to annex more land.
As someone who has a lot of business interests in the Middle East and especially Jordan I think that you will find that the Jordanians hate what ISIS/IS/??? are doing. They might have some internal tribal rivalries but they are united in wanting to keep their relatively liberal society out of the hands of the likes of IS/ISIS.
There is also a lot of belief that if IS attaches Jordan then Israel will see that as a direct threat to them and join in to fight alongside the Anti-IS fighters. My friends in Kuwait are divided about 'would this be a good thing or not?'. On one hand Yes because Israel are helping the Liberal Muslims fight the extremists On the other hand, No because this is a conflict that is mostly Muslim on Muslim.
If you are commenting from the relative safety of the US then until you have lived and travelled around the Region as I have for the past 20+ years you can't even begin to understand how complex it is in terms of relationships etc.
As much as I would like to see it, I don't think you'll ever see Isreal 'fighting beside' Muslims.
Isreal will do whatever it feels like doing to expand it's borders and, secondarily, defend itself. Helping Muslims will not factor into it.
this is on Obama's watch and he has been totally negligent.
Because we are TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE!
Its because hes a coward and would rather let the menace rage out of control than take it on.
Indeed, instead of containing them we should just go in guns blazing, because that's always the best way to counter problematic ideologies. It always works out so well. It's also easy for the armchair general to send soldiers to die for whatever cause they deem worthy.
Well, expect there to be signs all over banks and other secure locations, from now on, telling people to remove helmets, glasses and all articles of clothing.
Seriously, fucking with security cameras is really a needed thing?
Traffic and other types of cams that shouldn't be used to track people should certainly be fucked with.
"Ninety per cent of pregnant French women use homeopathy. Astrology is a useful diagnostic tool enabling us to see strengths and weaknesses via the birth chart."
At first, I have failed to see the common ground between homeopathy and astrology - these two sentences sounded completely unrelated. But they are actually related - it says "90% of French women are gullible enough to fall for homeopathy. This means that most of them are stupid enough to also believe astrology crap, so market is ripe"
And that figure of 90% actually comes from where? I mean other than out of Tredinnick's ass of course.
Not sure about getting abused, but it certainly drives down the earning potential in the field.
I have full time position, but was applying for a new opportunity. The position was listed with high requirements and experience. I fit the job description almost perfectly. When it came to discussing salary, they were offering $40k less than I currently make and without the high level of benefits I currently have. After I expressed disappointment in the salary for what was advertised as a highly experienced position, the recruiter said that their client was hoping to get an H1B visa person and the rate they quoted me was the going rate.
I'm an independent IT contractor in France. I constantly get calls from Indian companies with great sounding opportunities and then they tell me that it pays X, which is generally half or less of my general rate. I used to say 'no thanks' and hang up until I realized that they are certainly counting the number of Nos that they get and using that to justify work visas to bring in cheap labor. "Oh we couldn't find anyone interested look we called X hundred westerners (or whatever)).
Now I say "Yes I'm interested - at my rate". Not sure it makes much difference but I'll try and short out that process if I can.
Even if it means a massive terrorist attack on US soil, even if means the collapse of the government, or invasion, or a mushroom cloud over a major US city, we have to resist the presumption that any agent of the executive acts without oversight and accountability.
The problem is going to be finding politicians who are willing to take the risk of having a terrorist attack succeed 'because' they stood up against the NSA et. al.
I put 'because' in quotes as such a thing could conceivably be allowed to happen by the NSA et. al. to prove the point that they need such power.
It would be nice if the NSA was using this technology to spy on the real terrorists; and by that I mean the people who actually do want to hurt you and steal from you -- CEOs and Large Banks.
I mean, there has not been a SINGLE prosecution in the great financial disaster of 2008, yet, I'll be there's plenty of cell phone conversations and text messages about breaking up bad mortgages into financial instruments of mass destruction, and reselling them as AAA+ rated securities.
Excuse me, but after 20 trillion dollars lost, and another 2 or so trillion given away to prop up a few banks who wanted to play along with the government (until such time that it became time to steal again); it seems to me that the NSA should be more concerned about these guys than a few rouge crazies who blow up the occasional civilian.
I'm betting that nothing will change so I've told my son he should become a high level banker:-)
Except in the case of the U.K. trade sanctions from other E.U. member states are simply not permissible. I would also doubt the USA would introduce sanctions against the UK on this one, and E.U. sanctions against the USA would require approval from the UK which I doubt they are going to give. That's 45% of the worlds GDP locked in right there.
Good luck on that plan.
Not only that but all the above are sharing data on each other's citizens anyway.
Certainly very true. Absolutely, NSA and GCHQ are at fault here.
However, these kinds of stories draw the attention of even the most idiotic of individuals. Those that only a few months ago were, without any consideration, spouting, "I don't care if the NSA sees everything I do or works to break into everything." must now stop and realize they were used and lied to, and that the work of these criminal organizations is directly damaging many companies. Various encryption or communication groups and companies have disappeared without any notice by the average person, but they will see the damage when it comes to their cell phones.
'The average person' will never have any idea that any of this happened.
There is the law, notice the lawfully authorized part? They are not entitled to do anything you and I can't do UNLESS they have a search warrant or there is some other law on the books specifically authorizing the activity. I doubt even the FISA court would have rubber stamped this one.
They wouldn't need a search warrant outside the US for non-US citizens.
It would be nice to know who will pay the damages or that NSA and GHCQ can just destroy businesses as they please.
a) the businesses that were hacked or b) the taxpayers
Until enough people get off their fat asses and do something about the situation, which doesn't seem likely to happen before the US falls back to the middle ages.
No religion is perfect, and while Buddhism shouldn't be a religion there are many who have made it so...and once you put religion in, you take rationalism out.
Slashdot Mirror
Five years ago I wouldn't have agreed with me either :-(
"YMMV. Not valid in the Eurozone."
Well of course not - we use kilometers.
Whether you think Snowden is a hero or a traitor, I'd say the best political move Obama could make would be to pardon Snowden for any crimes he is accused of committing to date.
It would effectively silence Snowden as he could come home with the pardon in his pocket, assuming he keeps his mouth shut forever after. If Snowden continued leaks, then Snowden would be easy to turn into the bad guy
It would avoid a public trial (which would be awkward, assuming the government would even grant one).
It would avoid accusations of injustice (in case the trial was a secret one in Gitmo, or an unfortunate 'accident' occurred on his flight home).
Obama should do this after the 2016 election before he leaves office, as the hubbub will settle out and be forgotten by the 2018 midterm election. It would not satisfy Snowden's supporters (who think he should get a ticker tape parade) or his detractors (who think he should be imprisoned forever), but it would effectively halt the leaks and put the problem to bed with a minimum of fuss.
It would encourage other whistleblowers to come forth - something the government wants just about as much as they want to take power away from themselves.
So no, a presidential pardon for Snowden will never happen and if he returns he will be crucified.
Traitor: One who commits treason
Treason: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
He didn't levy war on us, he didn't adhere to our enemies, nor did he give them comfort. There is a flimsy argument that perhaps his actions gave aid to our enemies but if you roll with that reasoning then all of the people he exposed are also traitors so I'm not sure that's an argument the government would want to make.
He may be a criminal under the current laws, but he's not a traitor. Furthermore, if what he did was illegal then it's the law that is wrong and should be changed. The correct action would be for him to receive a presidential pardon followed by congress strengthening the whistleblower laws and a big shakeup at the NSA to root out their culture of taking activities beyond what they are authorized for. I'm afraid we don't live in that rosy alternate universe however.
It can all too easily be said that Snowden aided the enemies of the US, which is all the justification the US government needs to stick him in a cell forever.
Apparently, you do not have a clear understanding of how the US legal system works. If the DOJ makes a promise in a legal contract, it will have to follow that contract. To improperly reneg on that contract would jeopardize every legal contract the US government makes across the world. The US's power is embedded in law; to publicly violate it would unravel the US. And finally, you need to get a realistic grasp of Snowden's situation. His ability to further damage the US government is probably negligible. His value in "disappearing him into Gitmo" is also zero, because it will never happen with current protocols. He's negotiating jail time for "crimes" he knows he would be successfully prosecuted for, in exchange for the US to make the best "example" of Snowden they can manage. But the US DOJ will have to agree to operate above board, with a standard criminal prosecution; no "Star" courts.
Does the DOJ overrule 'National Security' and the shadow court that would no doubt handle Snowden's trial in secret 'to avoid further breaches of security'?
Legally, perhaps they do - in reality I'm not so sure.
And no one will care, you can stand out there all you like, you'll be ignored...
Or if you're with enough others, you'll have the Feds coordinating with local law enforcement to shut you down just like they did with Occupy Wall Street.
Right, where's the American spirit? The General Asshole did it for vanity, fame and money, in short, the American dream. And that idiot Snowden for "love of his country" and "moral values". Fuck that, you gotta monetize that shit! Giving away state secrets for free is so Un-American, you commie bastard!
Irony aside, what you're saying is the unsaid truth about the situation.
Patraeus is well connected and will probably come out of this relatively unscathed.
Snowden pissed off those in power enough that he's almost certainly fucked no matter what.
Yes, it will protect you. The government will still be able to intercept and listen to your calls, data and text, but they will be encrypted and they will not be able to know what you were talking about.
Expect NSA to hack Silent Circle to obtain the keys, though...
Looking on the Silent Circle website, it seems that there is a version for the US and a version for the ROW (rest of the the world). The ROW version 'cannot' be shipped to the US which implies that what you suggest may already be the case - at least for the US version.
Not stupid. Just clickbait.
If you actually read the article, it says "charges will likely hinge on the degree to which employees knew such activity was taking place." Nobody is going to get charged unless there's evidence that they knew they were hosting child porn and did nothing about it.
There is a question not answered by the article - namely did the police grab, and are they hacking into, sites that had nothing to do with the website they knew hosted porn or are they hacking into everything hosted by the hosting company?
I disagree vehemently with a huge amount of what Israel does but they clearly aren't completely stupid. Jordan may not be the ideal neighbour but it is on the other side of around half their land border and infinitely better as a neighbour than Lebanon. Israel isn't going to just sit by and let Jordan get overrun by people who actively want to annihilate them, must easier to provide support to Jordan and fight in their territory.
While what you say may normally be correct tactically, it is not going to happen strategically, politically or religiously.
Israel will wait until they are directly threatened by whoever overruns Jordan and then they will attack in force using the exorcise as an excuse to annex more land.
As someone who has a lot of business interests in the Middle East and especially Jordan I think that you will find that the Jordanians hate what ISIS/IS/??? are doing.
They might have some internal tribal rivalries but they are united in wanting to keep their relatively liberal society out of the hands of the likes of IS/ISIS.
There is also a lot of belief that if IS attaches Jordan then Israel will see that as a direct threat to them and join in to fight alongside the Anti-IS fighters.
My friends in Kuwait are divided about 'would this be a good thing or not?'.
On one hand Yes because Israel are helping the Liberal Muslims fight the extremists
On the other hand, No because this is a conflict that is mostly Muslim on Muslim.
If you are commenting from the relative safety of the US then until you have lived and travelled around the Region as I have for the past 20+ years you can't even begin to understand how complex it is in terms of relationships etc.
As much as I would like to see it, I don't think you'll ever see Isreal 'fighting beside' Muslims.
Isreal will do whatever it feels like doing to expand it's borders and, secondarily, defend itself. Helping Muslims will not factor into it.
Because we are TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE!
Indeed, instead of containing them we should just go in guns blazing, because that's always the best way to counter problematic ideologies. It always works out so well. It's also easy for the armchair general to send soldiers to die for whatever cause they deem worthy.
And your alternative solution would be....?
Well, expect there to be signs all over banks and other secure locations, from now on, telling people to remove helmets, glasses and all articles of clothing.
Seriously, fucking with security cameras is really a needed thing?
Traffic and other types of cams that shouldn't be used to track people should certainly be fucked with.
Well, the 90% figure is based on 90% more facts than homeopathy. Or astrology, for that matter.
Basing a statement on a baseless reference of a jackass makes one, in turn, a jackass.
Defending a jackass with poor math doesn't do much better.
90% of nothing is still nothing.
"Ninety per cent of pregnant French women use homeopathy. Astrology is a useful diagnostic tool enabling us to see strengths and weaknesses via the birth chart."
At first, I have failed to see the common ground between homeopathy and astrology - these two sentences sounded completely unrelated. But they are actually related - it says
"90% of French women are gullible enough to fall for homeopathy. This means that most of them are stupid enough to also believe astrology crap, so market is ripe"
And that figure of 90% actually comes from where? I mean other than out of Tredinnick's ass of course.
Not sure about getting abused, but it certainly drives down the earning potential in the field.
I have full time position, but was applying for a new opportunity. The position was listed with high requirements and experience. I fit the job description almost perfectly. When it came to discussing salary, they were offering $40k less than I currently make and without the high level of benefits I currently have. After I expressed disappointment in the salary for what was advertised as a highly experienced position, the recruiter said that their client was hoping to get an H1B visa person and the rate they quoted me was the going rate.
I'm an independent IT contractor in France. I constantly get calls from Indian companies with great sounding opportunities and then they tell me that it pays X, which is generally half or less of my general rate. I used to say 'no thanks' and hang up until I realized that they are certainly counting the number of Nos that they get and using that to justify work visas to bring in cheap labor. "Oh we couldn't find anyone interested look we called X hundred westerners (or whatever)).
Now I say "Yes I'm interested - at my rate". Not sure it makes much difference but I'll try and short out that process if I can.
The salary offered through both of my offers were very competitive...
Competitive when compared with Canadian salaries, or with US salaries for the same job in the target geographical location?
Even if it means a massive terrorist attack on US soil, even if means the collapse of the government, or invasion, or a mushroom cloud over a major US city, we have to resist the presumption that any agent of the executive acts without oversight and accountability.
The problem is going to be finding politicians who are willing to take the risk of having a terrorist attack succeed 'because' they stood up against the NSA et. al.
I put 'because' in quotes as such a thing could conceivably be allowed to happen by the NSA et. al. to prove the point that they need such power.
It would be nice if the NSA was using this technology to spy on the real terrorists; and by that I mean the people who actually do want to hurt you and steal from you -- CEOs and Large Banks.
I mean, there has not been a SINGLE prosecution in the great financial disaster of 2008, yet, I'll be there's plenty of cell phone conversations and text messages about breaking up bad mortgages into financial instruments of mass destruction, and reselling them as AAA+ rated securities.
Excuse me, but after 20 trillion dollars lost, and another 2 or so trillion given away to prop up a few banks who wanted to play along with the government (until such time that it became time to steal again); it seems to me that the NSA should be more concerned about these guys than a few rouge crazies who blow up the occasional civilian.
I'm betting that nothing will change so I've told my son he should become a high level banker :-)
Except in the case of the U.K. trade sanctions from other E.U. member states are simply not permissible. I would also doubt the USA would introduce sanctions against the UK on this one, and E.U. sanctions against the USA would require approval from the UK which I doubt they are going to give. That's 45% of the worlds GDP locked in right there.
Good luck on that plan.
Not only that but all the above are sharing data on each other's citizens anyway.
Certainly very true. Absolutely, NSA and GCHQ are at fault here.
However, these kinds of stories draw the attention of even the most idiotic of individuals. Those that only a few months ago were, without any consideration, spouting, "I don't care if the NSA sees everything I do or works to break into everything." must now stop and realize they were used and lied to, and that the work of these criminal organizations is directly damaging many companies. Various encryption or communication groups and companies have disappeared without any notice by the average person, but they will see the damage when it comes to their cell phones.
'The average person' will never have any idea that any of this happened.
There is the law, notice the lawfully authorized part? They are not entitled to do anything you and I can't do UNLESS they have a search warrant or there is some other law on the books specifically authorizing the activity. I doubt even the FISA court would have rubber stamped this one.
They wouldn't need a search warrant outside the US for non-US citizens.
It would be nice to know who will pay the damages or that NSA and GHCQ can just destroy businesses as they please.
a) the businesses that were hacked or
b) the taxpayers
Until enough people get off their fat asses and do something about the situation, which doesn't seem likely to happen before the US falls back to the middle ages.
"If people are carefully and honestly thinking through the consequences of their actions, they are less likely to harm themselves or others."
You assume that people do not want to harm themselves or others, which is often not true.
Organized religion is a power base and it has always been used by those in power to keep or get more power - not to make nice nice.
No religion is perfect, and while Buddhism shouldn't be a religion there are many who have made it so...and once you put religion in, you take rationalism out.
Violence committed by 'Buddhists':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...