All the regulations apply the moment you transfer said gun to any other person.
And STILL you can't cite that regulation.
Are you really so stupid you can't google this?
Apparently... I'm so stupid that I found, read and posted the first link you referenced a full eight minutes before you replied: https://news.slashdot.org/comm...
Your second link actually confirms what I said, which you did here:
Although technically you can transfer a homemade firearm
Ok...
you would have to prove your intent
And here I thought it was up to the government to prove guilt, not for the accused to prove their innocence
You'll note that the BATFE is very specific with the use of the term "engaged in the business":
There are people in jail for this because the Jury believed they intended to transfer the firearm they produced.
[Citation Needed]
Any legal position where you base your defense around your intent at the time is going to be VERY dangerous
Any legal position you take that the government opposes is very dangerous... see the case of Defense Distributed as a recent example.
Maybe your willing to gamble a decade in prison for it, but I'm not.
That's fine, but who said I am? I am simply recognizing what the law and regulations say today.
And you transfer that firearm to any person and they commit a crime with it and I can guarantee you will be arrested and more than likely convicted.
Here in Washington state all transfers require a background check... if I decide to sell off some part of my collection because I'm short on money, including one or two completed 80% lowers, it would have to occur with the assistance of an FFL... would they go to jail as well if the person who receives it passes the background check and then goes on to do evil with it?
No, in both would be complying with the law as written.
It's been by go to link when trying to get people to understand how far out of the bottle the gun genie is.
I've been meaning to get a gun myself, but the bureaucratic process is just overwhelming (by design).
Do it! Though what bureaucratic processes are you finding difficult?
In most states getting a long gun is as simple as going to a gun shop, picking one out, filling out a 4473 and having them run a quick background check with the feds. Handgun purchases are similar, though in some states you may need a permit to buy.
The only question is, once I follow the steps and manage to finish the remaining 20% of the lower receiver myself, would it be legal for me to transport this firearm — such as to a range to test it (and myself)?
Or will any cop be able to confiscate it — and put me away for a long time — because of the simple possession?
Recall that your local police really only enforce state/local law... so I can't speak to what prohibitions there may be where you are, I do know where I live it is perfectly legal, assuming again, you can legally posses a firearm.
Keep in mind though... IANAL... I'm just one who pays a lot of attention as my liberty is on the line should I screw up.
If you manufacture a firearm and don't comply with the registration and numbering requirements
Except those regulations (from the Federal level) do not apply to one off builds.
and other federal laws
Yes, there are some laws which prohibit what I could make in my garage (ie no machineguns).
such that it's a "ghost gun"
That it's a recently made up political term to describe something which has been legal for ages?
and then transfer that firearm to any other person including a son you will have broken federal law and the person you transferred it to would have as well for taking it.
You claim I'm wrong... yet offered nothing to refute what I said (or linked to).
Yes, the law you are thinking of says it's illegal to build for distribution or sale, it's a question of what the intent of the builder was.
When you fill out a 4473, there is a question as to if you are the real buyer or not. That doesn't mean you are prohibited from ever selling the gun later, be it in a week, month or decade you decide it's not right for you... you can still sell it... just so long as your intent at the time of purchase was to buy for yourself.
It's illegal to transfer possession of a homemade gun to anyone.
No, it's not.
The risk you run in giving./selling a homemade firearm to someone else is that you could be seen as 'in the business of manufacturing' without an FFL, then are running afoul of federal law.
If you start off intending to make a bunch to sell/give away, you are going to have problems, if you sell a cheap zip gun to a private buy back, or give it to your friend (and you both can legally own firearms), you're ok.
Except I walked through the process and asked you to correct me, and instead, you helped prove my point.
so I'm not sure why you think you are more aware of what went down than I was.
Because I've probably purchased more firearms over the years, and from more places (both stores & states), so am very familiar with the process... both technically and legally. Ditto for sudafed... again, recall how I went through the process?
the response took far less time than it took me to pick out a gun.
That would be the "I" in NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System), but it's not always a sure thing... more on that in a min.
If the pharmacy is closed but the store is open, no sudafed for you. If the pharmacist is on break, no sudafed for you. If the pharmacist is helping someone else you have to wait.
And there is the additional information you left out, funny how I knew that was the case.
Did you know not every employee at the Bass Pro Shop can sell you the gun and process the background check? I've never actually been to a Bass Pro Shop (nearest one is rather new and an hour away from me), but I imagine they are like other sporting goods stores (Cabelas, Sheels, Gander Mountain, Big 5, etc), where the firearm department has it's own checkout process. If everyone in that section is busy dealing with other customers, called in sick, or just don't like the way you look... no gun for you, as the friendly folks from the boots or front checkout lines probably aren't going to be able to hand you a 4473 and call it in.
This is actually quite similar to how alcohol is treated at grocery-stores in many states, where some employees aren't even legally able to handle it as part of a checkout process due to age or lack of training.
This can easily and often take more than 5 minutes.
Ditto a NICS check, but having only done it once (it sounds like), you don't know it that it you can get a "Proceed", a "Delay", or a "Deny". In the second case, you may have to wait up to 3 business days before you can take home your lawfully purchased property... and that is subject to mood of the FFL as to if they opt to release it or not.
Of course, there are additional controls on pseudoephedrine in some places, such as Oregon & Mississippi where you actually require a doctors prescription to get some. Hell of a thing if you are visiting from out of state and get hit by some congestion.
But go ahead and keep trying to paint me as a liar if you want. Tell me about what I experienced when I was thousands of miles away from you, apparently you knew the experience better than I did.
Interesting how defensive you get when I simply pointed out a lack of specifics from you... and when you offered specifics, you revealed your lack of knowledge on the subject, apparently only based on a good experience of buying a gun, and a bad experience of trying to buy sudafed and automatically assumed them both representative, without ever stopping to realize how similar both systems are, and that in fact, legally getting sudafed from a store is often easier than it is to legally buy a gun from a store. Can't get any at CVS? There are plenty of other drug stores out there who can help you (I've driven great distances to get a Rx filled in a hurry), however if NICS tells a gun store to delay, you probably aren't going to get a different answer should you try another.
I am a gun owner myself and I was appalled at the fact that I could buy a shotgun at Bass Pro Shops in less time than it takes me to buy sudafed at CVS
I suspect... you are leaving out some details... as in both cases you would have been required to show a state issued photo id (which is racist when asked for to vote). For the shotgun purchase, Bas Pro Shop being an FFL, you would have filled out a 4473 and them called it into the FBI (or submitted online)... while the CVS would employee would have plugged your drivers license info into the computer for the federal list of frequent buyers.
What exactly was the delay at CVS?
Or are you dishonestly hiding the fact that most FFLs will take your money before they run the check, during which time you have technically purchased something, you just cannot have physical posession of it. If so, you should try buying a NFA item... where what you legally own spends 9 months in someone else's safe as they wait to hear back from the BATFE as to if they can hand it to you or not.
FYI, this isn't actually true. Gun ownership in the U.S. is correlated with an increase in mortality. That means if you own a gun, you're more likely to die.
Dying in an airplane crash is also correlated with having a pilots license... as is dying in a car crash correlated with owning a car... however neither change the fact that on a mile per mile basis, flying is safer than driving. Lazy people simply throw out stats they don't understand to justify their view, intelligent people drill into the data to understand it's meaning.
Given that ~2/3rds gun deaths are suicide, that correlation simply means that if one opts to kill themselves and they own a gun... they are going to be more successful, as most don't use their car to do the job.
It's odd, isn't it... we have hundreds of millions of firearms and trillions of rounds of ammunition, and when you remove places like Chicago and Baltimore from the stats, the nations overall rate of gun violence (suicide not being included) plummets dramatically.
But the idea that they're great for self defense is a myth.
Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million
It's been a few years since I had a math class, however I believe 500k is more than 233k.
I would also argue that every additional bullet coming from every direction increases the odds of some innocent bystander getting hit.
I take it then you are opposed to police ever using lethal force if there are innocent bystanders in the area... as your average CPL holder is better trained and practiced than your average cop.
The difference is that one has qualified immunity and is able to take more risky shots knowing they are less likely to be held to account... while the CPL holder knows they have to do everything perfectly, and even then they can be on the receiving end of a prosecutor who decided to make an example of them.
surrounded by 2nd Amendment activists who were all responsible gun owners.
[Citation needed]
Did you forget that Chris Kyle wasn't the only person killed there? His friend Chad Littlefield was shot 7 times.
Afterwards the killer left and drove to his sisters house where he confessed, and she called 911 to report what he had done.
Are you suggesting that all of those '2nd Amendment activists who were all responsible gun owners' who surrounded him simply... froze, and didn't attempt to engage the killer... or call 911?
Being armed doesn't guarantee you are going to be successful in defending your life, however it does significantly increase the odds.
I liked the Surface RT, I loved my Surface Pro 3... but the Surface Go is just too small for my adult hands, granted it does offer some usefulness to kids where the parents don't want to buy iPads.
No, I didn't see it until after I posted. Given they posted @05:58PM and I did @06:05PM, is it so implausible that I hadn't done a full reload and read of every comment prior to posting in that 7 minute window?
It's as if I have an interest in the area, and may just have done my own research, independent of the post you accused me of plagiarizing. You know, the very thing I called out in my post.
Ex: Here in Washington state, party affiliation is not part of the list (but history is)... while it is in Ohio affiliation is, but history is not: https://www6.sos.state.oh.us/o...
The primary purpose of these databases being available in some form is for political reasons.You as a candidate or just an interested party is going to need to know who to target with your door knocking & mailings.
See someone who is only an irregular voter? Might make a good target to encourage to vote for your person/issue.
See someone who is pretty regular? Their mind may already be made up.
In many states, you can get a copy of the voter registration database pretty easily. Some even have public web links to zip files. In others they may charge you per entry.
Know what almost all of them have? "personal information like a voter's name, address, gender and several years' worth of voting history"
Why? They are invaluable to campaigns for basic things like get out the vote efforts.
Sure, they run their own data systems on top (marking known donors to friendly or unfriendly candidates), social media history, etc, but this should not be surprising or shocking.
And there are a few other categories of firearms that are restricted like cut-off rifles and shotguns, that are illegal or require a special permit.
Those are still legal, at least at the Federal level, you just need to pay your $200 for a tax stamp, wait amount 9 months for it to get processed and returned to you, then you can manufacturer (or receive your already paid for) NFA item (short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, suppressor, etc).
The exception to this is fully automatic weapons, those you can't manufacturer unless you've a class 3 NFA... which you aren't going to get as an individual.
Recall they only got a fraction of their legal costs from the feds in the agreement... and that neither the feds nor the states have any money. It's you and I who will be paying those legal bills.
> 2) You are not allowed to transfer or sell them.
It'd be perfectly legal to transfer such a thing to say... a gun 'buyback' (government or privately run): https://www.thefirearmblog.com...
You could even built one and hand the result to your spouse or a friend (so long as they are not otherwise prohibited from owning and no other laws restrict casual transfers/gifts of that sort of firearm).
You run risks when you are making so many that the BATFE decides you are now in the business of building them.
What is the magic number? No one knows, just like no one knows exactly how many firearms a private seller can buy/sell at a gun show before they need to become a FFL. It's very much at their discretion.
I'd bet money that selling a few of what you made (outside of a buyback) would probably make you look more like a manufacturer as well.
Slashdot Mirror
And STILL you can't cite that regulation.
Apparently... I'm so stupid that I found, read and posted the first link you referenced a full eight minutes before you replied: https://news.slashdot.org/comm...
Your second link actually confirms what I said, which you did here:
Ok...
And here I thought it was up to the government to prove guilt, not for the accused to prove their innocence
You'll note that the BATFE is very specific with the use of the term "engaged in the business":
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/q...
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/q....
[Citation Needed]
Any legal position you take that the government opposes is very dangerous... see the case of Defense Distributed as a recent example.
That's fine, but who said I am? I am simply recognizing what the law and regulations say today.
Here in Washington state all transfers require a background check... if I decide to sell off some part of my collection because I'm short on money, including one or two completed 80% lowers, it would have to occur with the assistance of an FFL... would they go to jail as well if the person who receives it passes the background check and then goes on to do evil with it?
No, in both would be complying with the law as written.
It's been by go to link when trying to get people to understand how far out of the bottle the gun genie is.
Do it! Though what bureaucratic processes are you finding difficult?
In most states getting a long gun is as simple as going to a gun shop, picking one out, filling out a 4473 and having them run a quick background check with the feds. Handgun purchases are similar, though in some states you may need a permit to buy.
At the federal level you are fine, so long as you can legally own a firearm. http://www.gunsholstersandgear... has some great info.
Recall that your local police really only enforce state/local law... so I can't speak to what prohibitions there may be where you are, I do know where I live it is perfectly legal, assuming again, you can legally posses a firearm.
Keep in mind though... IANAL... I'm just one who pays a lot of attention as my liberty is on the line should I screw up.
Except those regulations (from the Federal level) do not apply to one off builds.
Yes, there are some laws which prohibit what I could make in my garage (ie no machineguns).
That it's a recently made up political term to describe something which has been legal for ages?
You claim I'm wrong... yet offered nothing to refute what I said (or linked to).
Yes, the law you are thinking of says it's illegal to build for distribution or sale, it's a question of what the intent of the builder was.
When you fill out a 4473, there is a question as to if you are the real buyer or not. That doesn't mean you are prohibited from ever selling the gun later, be it in a week, month or decade you decide it's not right for you... you can still sell it... just so long as your intent at the time of purchase was to buy for yourself.
You've completely missed and should spend a few minutes on this excellent read: https://www.wired.com/story/de...
No, it's not.
The risk you run in giving./selling a homemade firearm to someone else is that you could be seen as 'in the business of manufacturing' without an FFL, then are running afoul of federal law.
If you start off intending to make a bunch to sell/give away, you are going to have problems, if you sell a cheap zip gun to a private buy back, or give it to your friend (and you both can legally own firearms), you're ok.
Granted... IANAL, there are those who have written on the same subject: https://www.criminaldefenselaw...
Except I walked through the process and asked you to correct me, and instead, you helped prove my point.
Because I've probably purchased more firearms over the years, and from more places (both stores & states), so am very familiar with the process... both technically and legally. Ditto for sudafed... again, recall how I went through the process?
That would be the "I" in NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System), but it's not always a sure thing... more on that in a min.
And there is the additional information you left out, funny how I knew that was the case.
Did you know not every employee at the Bass Pro Shop can sell you the gun and process the background check? I've never actually been to a Bass Pro Shop (nearest one is rather new and an hour away from me), but I imagine they are like other sporting goods stores (Cabelas, Sheels, Gander Mountain, Big 5, etc), where the firearm department has it's own checkout process. If everyone in that section is busy dealing with other customers, called in sick, or just don't like the way you look... no gun for you, as the friendly folks from the boots or front checkout lines probably aren't going to be able to hand you a 4473 and call it in.
This is actually quite similar to how alcohol is treated at grocery-stores in many states, where some employees aren't even legally able to handle it as part of a checkout process due to age or lack of training.
Ditto a NICS check, but having only done it once (it sounds like), you don't know it that it you can get a "Proceed", a "Delay", or a "Deny". In the second case, you may have to wait up to 3 business days before you can take home your lawfully purchased property... and that is subject to mood of the FFL as to if they opt to release it or not.
Of course, there are additional controls on pseudoephedrine in some places, such as Oregon & Mississippi where you actually require a doctors prescription to get some. Hell of a thing if you are visiting from out of state and get hit by some congestion.
Interesting how defensive you get when I simply pointed out a lack of specifics from you... and when you offered specifics, you revealed your lack of knowledge on the subject, apparently only based on a good experience of buying a gun, and a bad experience of trying to buy sudafed and automatically assumed them both representative, without ever stopping to realize how similar both systems are, and that in fact, legally getting sudafed from a store is often easier than it is to legally buy a gun from a store. Can't get any at CVS? There are plenty of other drug stores out there who can help you (I've driven great distances to get a Rx filled in a hurry), however if NICS tells a gun store to delay, you probably aren't going to get a different answer should you try another.
I suspect... you are leaving out some details... as in both cases you would have been required to show a state issued photo id (which is racist when asked for to vote). For the shotgun purchase, Bas Pro Shop being an FFL, you would have filled out a 4473 and them called it into the FBI (or submitted online)... while the CVS would employee would have plugged your drivers license info into the computer for the federal list of frequent buyers.
What exactly was the delay at CVS?
Or are you dishonestly hiding the fact that most FFLs will take your money before they run the check, during which time you have technically purchased something, you just cannot have physical posession of it. If so, you should try buying a NFA item... where what you legally own spends 9 months in someone else's safe as they wait to hear back from the BATFE as to if they can hand it to you or not.
Which specific law(s) do you want to see changed?
Dying in an airplane crash is also correlated with having a pilots license... as is dying in a car crash correlated with owning a car... however neither change the fact that on a mile per mile basis, flying is safer than driving. Lazy people simply throw out stats they don't understand to justify their view, intelligent people drill into the data to understand it's meaning.
Given that ~2/3rds gun deaths are suicide, that correlation simply means that if one opts to kill themselves and they own a gun... they are going to be more successful, as most don't use their car to do the job.
It's odd, isn't it... we have hundreds of millions of firearms and trillions of rounds of ammunition, and when you remove places like Chicago and Baltimore from the stats, the nations overall rate of gun violence (suicide not being included) plummets dramatically.
The CDC disagrees, and did so under Obama even: http://www.nap.edu/read/18319/...
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pu... says an estimated 1.4 million guns stolen during a 6 year period or ~233k per year, while https://www.nap.edu/read/18319... mentions:
It's been a few years since I had a math class, however I believe 500k is more than 233k.
I take it then you are opposed to police ever using lethal force if there are innocent bystanders in the area... as your average CPL holder is better trained and practiced than your average cop.
The difference is that one has qualified immunity and is able to take more risky shots knowing they are less likely to be held to account... while the CPL holder knows they have to do everything perfectly, and even then they can be on the receiving end of a prosecutor who decided to make an example of them.
[Citation needed]
Did you forget that Chris Kyle wasn't the only person killed there? His friend Chad Littlefield was shot 7 times.
Afterwards the killer left and drove to his sisters house where he confessed, and she called 911 to report what he had done.
Are you suggesting that all of those '2nd Amendment activists who were all responsible gun owners' who surrounded him simply... froze, and didn't attempt to engage the killer... or call 911?
Being armed doesn't guarantee you are going to be successful in defending your life, however it does significantly increase the odds.
It's too small to fig guts into.
I liked the Surface RT, I loved my Surface Pro 3... but the Surface Go is just too small for my adult hands, granted it does offer some usefulness to kids where the parents don't want to buy iPads.
Interesting that I am posting with a logged in account, while you as an AC are accusing me of plagiarism. How brave.
No, I was not aware of the post you are quoting until after I posted mine: https://yro.slashdot.org/comme...
No, I didn't see it until after I posted. Given they posted @05:58PM and I did @06:05PM, is it so implausible that I hadn't done a full reload and read of every comment prior to posting in that 7 minute window?
You'll also notice a full 30 minutes earlier I posted this: https://yro.slashdot.org/comme...
It's as if I have an interest in the area, and may just have done my own research, independent of the post you accused me of plagiarizing. You know, the very thing I called out in my post.
Curiously, the Texas DB seems to have a "Hispanic surname flag": https://www.sos.state.tx.us/el...
Can confirm. You can request the Texas list here: https://www.sos.state.tx.us/el...
One of the fields is listed as "ELECTION DATE"
Thanks for making me find that, I've been building up a list as to where to request lists from each states and only now found the Texas form.
Christ, they want on the order of $1500 for the full list...
Depends on the state.
Ex: Here in Washington state, party affiliation is not part of the list (but history is)... while it is in Ohio affiliation is, but history is not: https://www6.sos.state.oh.us/o...
The primary purpose of these databases being available in some form is for political reasons.You as a candidate or just an interested party is going to need to know who to target with your door knocking & mailings.
See someone who is only an irregular voter? Might make a good target to encourage to vote for your person/issue.
See someone who is pretty regular? Their mind may already be made up.
Ex: Want a copy of the voter registration list from... Ohio? Pick a county: https://www6.sos.state.oh.us/o...
In many states, you can get a copy of the voter registration database pretty easily. Some even have public web links to zip files. In others they may charge you per entry.
Know what almost all of them have? "personal information like a voter's name, address, gender and several years' worth of voting history"
Why? They are invaluable to campaigns for basic things like get out the vote efforts.
Sure, they run their own data systems on top (marking known donors to friendly or unfriendly candidates), social media history, etc, but this should not be surprising or shocking.
[Citation Needed]
He didn't legitimately win by... winning in the only way that matters per the system we have today?
How does that work again?
Does that mean you want gay pride parades to go away?
Those are still legal, at least at the Federal level, you just need to pay your $200 for a tax stamp, wait amount 9 months for it to get processed and returned to you, then you can manufacturer (or receive your already paid for) NFA item (short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, suppressor, etc).
The exception to this is fully automatic weapons, those you can't manufacturer unless you've a class 3 NFA... which you aren't going to get as an individual.
Recall they only got a fraction of their legal costs from the feds in the agreement... and that neither the feds nor the states have any money. It's you and I who will be paying those legal bills.
-Resident of Washington State
> 2) You are not allowed to transfer or sell them.
It'd be perfectly legal to transfer such a thing to say... a gun 'buyback' (government or privately run): https://www.thefirearmblog.com...
You could even built one and hand the result to your spouse or a friend (so long as they are not otherwise prohibited from owning and no other laws restrict casual transfers/gifts of that sort of firearm).
You run risks when you are making so many that the BATFE decides you are now in the business of building them.
What is the magic number? No one knows, just like no one knows exactly how many firearms a private seller can buy/sell at a gun show before they need to become a FFL. It's very much at their discretion.
I'd bet money that selling a few of what you made (outside of a buyback) would probably make you look more like a manufacturer as well.