"FALSE STATEMENTS_ is the key term here. They can tell his current employer exactly what he's doing. I NEVER said anything about them slandering him."
Which is correct. They CAN state the FACTS to his present employers. But they better make sure they ARE facts. If they allege ANY wrongdoing at all by the former employee, it is THEY who are comitting slander.
Which is why the legal recourse is supposed to be a lawsuit. It isn't slander until they PROVE it in a court. Until then, it would be slanderous for the former employer to allege slander.
BTW, nowhere in the story is there anything about the ex-employer saying that anything he said was UNTRUE (slander), only that they seem to be under the impresion that he's not allowed to say ANYTHING about them.
" the threshold of prooof is high since you have to convince your current or prospective empolyer to testify and that your former employer behaved with malice."
If this were a case where they gave him a bad reference and he failed to get a job, I'd agree with you. It would be extremely hard to prove.
BUT, with a documented threat (which is what they've done), as evidence of intent, if they were to contact his present employer, and THEN he were to lose his job, it would be very easy to prove.
By contacting him and saying what they've said, the asshole company is plainly stating that they intend to punish him for expressing his opinon about them by getting him fired.
Especially as he'd be able to subpoena the relevant whitnesses from both his former and present employer. For what reason would his present employers commit perjury in a court and risk imprisonment/bad pub/both, just to protect another company they have no interest in?
While courts have upheld narrowly defined, limited duration NDA type agreements, I can't think of any case where one has ever ruled that a company has an implied "perpetual" right to not be criticized by former employees.
Which would have to be the case here, as the poster stated that he had never signed any kind of NDA.
Certainly the 1st Amendment would be on his side.
The only possible action the former employer could take would be to sue civilly for slander or libel.
Which is very hard to prosecute. For one thing, courts have basically held that it's practically impossible to slander a corporation. Which is why you don't see corpers suing people constantly over this. Specific individuals is a different case.
Also, to be slander/libel, the company would have to prove that you were deliberately misleading people, and that what you were stating wasn't opinion. I'd think they'd be hard pressed to prove that his BBS posts were anything but personal, subjective opinions of his former employer.
Actually, I'd think that he has a far better case to sue his former employer than they do against him. Especially if he has hard evidence of this threat to contact his present company.
It sounds to me as though his former company is of the opinion that they are above criticism. As are most corporations. But they seem to be too ignorant and inmature to realize that there is nothing they can do to stop it. So, like a schoolyard bully who had someone stand at them defiantly (something that almost all bullys fear), they are threatening to "run to the principal".
By their behavior here alone, his former employer is proving his point that they are a shitty place to work.
I believe that if they (former company) contacts his current employer, it will be THEY who is in legal deep shit.
There are laws that severly limit what your employer can say about you to future/prospective employers. For instance, I've been told that legally, all your former employers can say is:
1. You worked there from X date to Y date
2. If you are or are not rehirable.
Since I'd assume that the person who submitted this story probably used the former company as a reference for his current employment, this would certainly apply.
I'd get a lawyer to at least send the bozos a threatening letter stating that if they do anything to threaten your current employment, you will pursue them for all civil and criminal liability. As it would be harassment (at least), the company and officers would be personally liable for CRIMINAL charges.
Also, keep in mind that the truth is an ABSOLUTE defense in any case of libel or slander. If you told the truth, there is nothing to worry about (unless, as other posters have said, the ex-company is the MPAA and the judge assigned is named Kaplan).
Also, even IF you signed a NDA, if your former company was doing anything illegal, that you were talking about (such as violating labor laws, for example) this makes any such contract null and void.
You are wrong about the Kent State Massacre. The students that were shot were ones that were merely walking between classes. They were not participating in the protests.
Their only crime was being in the way of the bullets of some government jack booted thugs.
It seems that we as citizens have learned NOTHING from that event. Though the public reaction to the Kent State Massacre was outrage, the 1990's saw more American citizens than ever massacred by government stormtrooper "mistakes". I'm referring to Waco and Ruby Ridge. And there wasn't the outrage that was seen in 1970. For one thing, the news media in 1970 was NOT the establishment's puppet as it is today. Waco and Ruby Ridge were both reported incorrectly with a pro-government slant.
"So now they have no recourse against the government at all
Except for the democratic process of elections,of course.
"
Without armed citizens, what threat can be held against the government if they decide to NOT obey an election?
I cannot think of even ONE country that has disarmed it's citizens that is still free. The UK since Comrade Blair took office has been turning the UK rapidly into a fascist police state.
"What pisses me off more than microsoft's antics, and their apparent disregard for the government's wishes, is that people in general don't see anything wrong with these shinanigans(sp?). (And by people, I mainly mean the corporate IT guys, and by corporate IT guys, I mean my boss.)"
This should suprise no one. Microsoft is where they are today because of slick marketing than anything else. The average IT manager knows far less about IT than the people he/she manages, it's just a fact of life, because working with the stuff isn't the manager's job.
I think someone will eventually reverse engineer the `Doze media audio format, as was done with the Fraunhoffer(sp) MP3 encoder codecs.
That is, if `Doze media ever gets that important. Sure, it sounds better than does the typical real audio stream, but it doesn't sound as good as MP3 streaming.
I think that you are right, this is more about M$ trying to monopolize audio formats. But, their scheme sounds to me that what they are proposing is no better than SDMI, and probably worse (less secure) in fact. After all, Microsoft has not, will not, and never will release ANYTHING without some significant bug or security exploit...
The real world has already chosen MP3 as the standard format for audio and for streaming audio. If the RIAA can't do a thing to stop it, neither can Microsoft.
"Sure, it's Apples fault that Motorola can't/won't get their chip to go faster."
Yes it IS Apple's fault... Their license agreement forbids them from using the IBM PPC chip, which has already hit 1 GHz, I believe...
And several reputable hardware sites have already debunked the myth of the G4 PPC being faster clock per clock than an Athlon...
Face it. Apple is dead. They are relying on pretty plastic cases and a pseudo-Unix OS to save them. Unfortunately they don't know that plastic cases suck (RF leakage) and that they should just adopt an established Unix (BSD/Linux) rather than copy and call it "OS X"
It seems to me that it's usually the dying companies, or the ones in imminent danger of death (Rambus, GeoWorks, Apple) who turn to the lawyers instead of R&D.
It's a myth that Apple invented the GUI. They just stole it from Xerox before Microsoft did. I do not and will never want my GNOME desktop to look like the Mac, I've never liked Apple's GUI anyway.
As much as I hate Microsoft, I have to admit, had Apple won the war with IBM/Intel/MS, things would be SO much worse. Imagine only having ONE PC vendor...
Apple needs to realize that computers are not cars. They are never going to be able to caputure enough marketshare just by trying to make computers that looks "cute" like the VW Beetle.
Maybe they should be spending more time trying to get a processor that will hit 700 Mhz than on silly lawsuits and tacky plastic cases.
First off, the police state types have this inconvienient problem of our written Constitution and bill of rights (which they do not have in the UK).
But imagine the outrage... While the masses may be ignorant enough of the technical details of the DMCA not to get up in arms over it (at least until it becomes impossible to tape stuff), THIS would hit every Joe 6-pack. EVERYONE speeds. Why? Because most highway speed limits are unreasonably low for the conditions and design of the road.
Also, I don't think the law enforcement types would like this either. One reason why speed limits are lower than they should be is that speeding tickets are an excellent form of tax revenue. This would eliminate the need for speed traps, and thus, the cops might actually have to go after REAL criminals.
But then again, this sort of thing does fit right in with a "1984" society, which we seem to be advancing towards at an alarming rate.
Only a completely mis-educated, ignorant citizenry would allow police THIS kind of control over them. Why aren't they burning things in the streets of London over this proposal, AND the odius "RIP" law (that allows any cop to demand your encryption keys at will, and mandates jail time if you refuse or reveal to anyone that they DID get your keys)?
Oh yes. I forgot. They disarmed UK citizens. So now they have no recourse against the government at all. Notice that they seem to be taking advantage of this?
"and shouldn't have to search Deja or post regarding securing a newly installed Linux box; such documents would be good included on disk and *on paper* in a manual"
Ever read the manuals that come with `Doze 2000 pro? Pretty useless aren't they? Where in the M$ docs is there instructions in how to keep Outlook from letting in every freaking virus that comes out? Or is that a feature?
I doubt there is a SINGLE Linux distro that does not include the HOWTO documents on the CD. Including the one telling you how to secure the system.
"Where did it say they had no experience? They may be new to Linux but, I guess you feel that all other experience doesn't count"
Other experience does count in some ways. PC and network fundamentals for example. But even that won't make you a Linux engineer after a cram class and some tests.
"Also, victory by attrition wasn't a "DARWINIAN PROCESS"....get real!"
It isn't? Sure seems like it to me. Seems to me like throwing people in there to either learn at an impossible rate or fail... Acquiring employees in a Darwinian way such as what Linuxgruven is doing is a very ineffieicnt and cruel way to do it. But it's cheap.
"I interviewed with compaq, and got turned down, because I did not complete my MCSE"
Cases like that are really the ONLY reason why certifications are useful. Your certification may be one reason why they hire you, but your experience will be what keeps you there and advances your position.
Most companies care more about what you can do than anything else. Having years of experience on your resume will help. Chances are, a company that refuses to hire you for a position you are qualified for, and have experience to prove it, is NOT where you want to work in the first place. You would end up working with a lot of "paper" MCSE's.
That said, I highly recommend to anyone with the experience to make it meaningful go get the certification. I'm working on it myself right now. After 8 years as a tech, I'm certainly ready now to move up to an Engineer position, and have the experience to make the cert mean something when I get it.
"HELLO!!! They are getting that salary, haven' t you read the other posts? Reply with fact and knowledge or move on!"
Really? What company can pay entry level people with no experience $45,000 and make money? They can't. And I bet they don't. I'd bet that more than 75% never pass the test, and of the remaining 25%, most of them don't make it a year. Unless I miss my guess, Linuxgruven is actually using a horribly DARWINIAN process of getting qualified people, at the expense of horrific turnover. And the kicker is they are getting PAID to train their own people! Guess it's good for the company if they can get away with it, but it's sure not a great way to offer experienced professionals to your clients.
An experienced and certified Linux Engineer will make a LOT more than $45,000.
"Linuxgruven came along and offered me the chance to shine in a (finaly) emerging field. If you think you are good but just can't get a company to believe you and take a chance on you, what are you supposed to do? Entry level help desk at $9.00 an hour ain't for me baby!!!"
Well, hard work and experience eventually landed me a solid job with one of the top 3 computer companies in the world. And they hired me FOR my uncertified Linux experience, which is growing rapidly now that I actually get to work with it at work.
I agree that the MCSE is not the way to go. It is nice to have, but not really worth the effort. It is best to get all the experience you can with every OS you can though. I work with Novell, Linux, SCO, and `Doze in my current job. Do I make less than I could make if I took another job? Sure, I could get $5-10K more. But I wouldn't get such broad and practical experience that will eventually get me that 5-10K+more in the future.
There is no substitute for experience AND working your way up.
"I will agree with one point, training isn't the answer, it's a start and experience is the great equalizer,but don't "diss" someone if they have the tenacity to try."
I'm not dissing them for trying. But they are setting themselves up for hard reality if they let any company lead them to believe ANY certification alone +no experience will get you that kind of starting salary.
"Or, is it the fact that, your MANY (lol) years of Linux experience has made you diconnected from the rest of mankind to the point you can't stand these new "zelots" jumping on the Linux bandwagon?"
The tech profession is one of the few left in the world where the cream ALWAYS rises to the top.
Simply put, you can get all the certifications in the world, but if you can't fix the PC, or set up the network, or fix the server when it breaks, your job security is nil.
There are LOTS of people who have lately flocked into tech in the last 2-3 years because of the pay. I was working as a technician before the boom began, and now that times are not so great, guess what, I'll still be employed long after the last "paper MCSE" has been let go.
My point being, there is no such thing as a 2-4-6-8 whatever week training course and test that will EVER make you good enough to start from zip and work as an engineer. Unless you were already so gifted that you actually never need the course to begin with.
Training and certifications may get you in the door, but it's what you do after you are in there that will count in the long run. Certification validates experience, but does not substitute for it.
There is no such thing as a free lunch, especially in the tech industry, where your knowledge is tested and pushed every single day.
"Right, you're the one of these posters without a sequential ID#, and they continue after you, in perfect succession, like an old-timer (sorta) is part of this apparent scam, and generated all these accounts to back it up, then when you got challenged you pulled this one out to give yourself some semblence of legitimacy and then went right back to your old tricks"
Never underestimate the lowball tactics of sleazy sales and marketerdroids. If there IS such a thing as the "Dark Side of the Force" it's marketing...
I too noticed the nearly sequential and recent accounts that seemed soon after this article was posted, flooded the comments.
Getting bad press exposure on./ isn't good for any company that purports to be a Linux company, as everyone who is ANYONE in the Linux industry reads this site...
Honestly, I feel these guys deserve it. Their scheme sounds more like it's designed to collect $2500 than to educate or hire anyone.
What service company would have anything to sell that employed only recent inexperienced certified people?
About the only service Linuxgruven could offer would be cannon fodder suitable for the BOFH's Helldesk (ie people he can intimidate and dupe).
Not to say that everyone who they have trained is like that, but most of the people who will fall for this are people who aren't going to make it in this industry.
"You also offer me a class, that is at my own expense, that will help me pass the tests. If I stay a year I get my money back for the class and the tests. In the mean time I get $21.64 an hour plus health insurance for me, my wife, and four kids. TOUGH DECISION!"
IMO, it sounds to me like Linuxgruven is in the business of taking your $2500, giving you instruction (that Sair seems to be saying isn't up to their standards), then testing you. If you fail, they have your money.
If you succeed, you have a job making more money than you are worth given your experience and knowledge, that is only as secure as long as their quasi-ponsi bubble lasts?
Better to deliver pizzas, get yourself a PC, some books and start playing with it. In months if you have the ability, you will be ready to work as an entry-level tech for someone, where you will get the REAL experience you need to make the certs mean something.
"I know several people who are self-taught and completely uncertified, who do small office networking and such, and charge $80-150 an hour. They have absolutely no trouble getting it"
Exactly what I've experienced. I'm 100% self taught. My computer expereince dates back to the VIC-20 in 1980. I worked as a PC tech for 6 years before getting the A+ certification, which was done because my employer required it (our techs had to be A+ certified for certain contract customers). I didn't study and got 93% on the core and 90% on the DOS/Windows part...
Now granted, someone can study books, take a training course, and get the 65% required to pass, but who are you going to hire? Someone with the A+ and 8 years experience? Sure I cost a lot more, but a service company that employs paper technicians is NOT going to keep customers happy.
Having worked with networks, Novell, Linux, and `Doze for the last 2 years, I'm now considering going for a network engineer certification. Not for it's own sake, but to VALIDATE my experience.
I would NEVER work somewhere where they wanted you up front to pay for your training. Also, no insult intended, but what kind of company who pays salaries like that to green employees with no work experience is going to make it. What services CAN they offer?
No one can just take a cram course, pass a few tests, and be an instant expert. I've worked with Linux as a hobbyist for just over a year now, and I've run it mostly as my main OS. I started with RH 6.1, which won't impress many here on/.
But only NOW, after a year of using Linux, configuring it, playing with it, etc, do I even feel I'm ready to ATTEMPT to go after some kind of certification (Sair is probably the route I'll go). Fortunately, my last 2 months working for a major company in Durham, NC has accelerated my Linux education, as I've been able to use it on the job.
I'm FAR from a PC newbie. I've worked as a PC technician for over 8 years now (A+ certified). Linux is very different from the DOS/Doze world, so different that it was very hard even for someone like me in the beginning to grasp it.
Having worked in the tech industry as long as I have, I've come to be able to spot the difference between the people who KNOW what they are doing, and the ones who have paper that says they know it.
Certification training is NOT the be all and end all. It's only value is to validate to others that you are able to pass a certain level of tests of knowledge. It only goes WITH your experience to validate that you truly HAVE those skills. People who are only trained to pass tests are virtually worthless in the tech biz. Even worse, they devalue the certification itself (as the MCSE has become).
Simply put, if you have the ability, get yourself the training. Play with a PC. A PC that will run Linux adequately can be had very cheaply. Find an entry-level job working as a bench technician. You will learn all the fundamentals there.
If you have the talent, you will be better served by doing 6 months of even low level practical work than you ever will get out of years of book and classroom training.
eToys showed their asses last year when they got some "judge" Kaplan to basically prevent Etoy from being able to have their website up during the Christmas sales season. eToys then dropped their suit (probably when they realized they'd ultimately lose).
Now that eToys is tottering on going titsup.com (as The Register puts it) I think it's only poetic justice that it will be Etoy driving a nail in the coffin. It makes sense on their part to try to help kill eToys, who could restart their suit at a future date.
"Unions do nothing but promote mediocrity. They dont reward for being a better worker and they DO reward for being "just good enough" (Which in a union shop, is usually pretty bad)."
You have a great point about this. Unions also are allowed to dip into your paycheck practically at will and they use this money soley to promote ONE political party that over 40% of union members do not support.
Which is a stupid way to buy influence, the reason why the corpers contribute to BOTH parties is so that they have influence no matter WHO wins...
Also, unions have had a lot to do with the de-industrialization of the USA. Back in the 70's and early 80's, virtually EVERY factory where I'm from (Ashland, Ky) ended up shutting down, mostly after the unions comitted job suicide by strike after strike during bad economic times.
Now don't get me wrong, unions DO have their place, and at one time, in the early 20th Century did a LOT of good in getting reforms in workplace safety, the 40 hour work week, etc. But I think they have long outlived their usefulness in the places where they are still prevalent (heavy industry and government). Workers apparently realize this as well, as union workers are now a small minority of the total workforce.
Will unions come to the tech professions? Sadly, YES. Why? Because of operators like the place I used to work for. The management treated the tech department like dogs, paid us nothing (and refused to give me a raise at mu annual review despite the review being near perfect). They took full advantage of West Virginia's "Chineese overtime" system (as it is called) and paid us far less than our hourly rate for overtime that at times we were FORCED to work.
It should come as no surprise to anyone that the tech staff turned over 100% from the time I was hired until the time I left.
So yes, I DO think unions will come to technicians, and other service workers. But it will be the beginning of the end of the tech industry as we know it.
I just hope we are a lot smarter about it and keep control with ourselves, and not create a political self-serving bureaucratic machine like the AFL-CIO or the Teamsters (who had a president, Ron Carey who stole an election, called the UPS strike solely to try to save his own ass, and ended up settling for pay increases that would take the average UPS worker 5 YEARS to recoup the pay they missed during the strike.).
We as a profession do NOT want to go down that road.
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"FALSE STATEMENTS_ is the key term here. They can tell his current employer exactly what he's doing. I NEVER said anything about them slandering him."
Which is correct. They CAN state the FACTS to his present employers. But they better make sure they ARE facts. If they allege ANY wrongdoing at all by the former employee, it is THEY who are comitting slander.
Which is why the legal recourse is supposed to be a lawsuit. It isn't slander until they PROVE it in a court. Until then, it would be slanderous for the former employer to allege slander.
BTW, nowhere in the story is there anything about the ex-employer saying that anything he said was UNTRUE (slander), only that they seem to be under the impresion that he's not allowed to say ANYTHING about them.
Which is a legal right they do not have.
" the threshold of prooof is high since you have to convince your current or prospective empolyer to testify and that your former employer behaved with malice."
If this were a case where they gave him a bad reference and he failed to get a job, I'd agree with you. It would be extremely hard to prove.
BUT, with a documented threat (which is what they've done), as evidence of intent, if they were to contact his present employer, and THEN he were to lose his job, it would be very easy to prove.
By contacting him and saying what they've said, the asshole company is plainly stating that they intend to punish him for expressing his opinon about them by getting him fired.
Especially as he'd be able to subpoena the relevant whitnesses from both his former and present employer. For what reason would his present employers commit perjury in a court and risk imprisonment/bad pub/both, just to protect another company they have no interest in?
While courts have upheld narrowly defined, limited duration NDA type agreements, I can't think of any case where one has ever ruled that a company has an implied "perpetual" right to not be criticized by former employees.
Which would have to be the case here, as the poster stated that he had never signed any kind of NDA.
Certainly the 1st Amendment would be on his side.
The only possible action the former employer could take would be to sue civilly for slander or libel.
Which is very hard to prosecute. For one thing, courts have basically held that it's practically impossible to slander a corporation. Which is why you don't see corpers suing people constantly over this. Specific individuals is a different case.
Also, to be slander/libel, the company would have to prove that you were deliberately misleading people, and that what you were stating wasn't opinion. I'd think they'd be hard pressed to prove that his BBS posts were anything but personal, subjective opinions of his former employer.
Actually, I'd think that he has a far better case to sue his former employer than they do against him. Especially if he has hard evidence of this threat to contact his present company.
It sounds to me as though his former company is of the opinion that they are above criticism. As are most corporations. But they seem to be too ignorant and inmature to realize that there is nothing they can do to stop it. So, like a schoolyard bully who had someone stand at them defiantly (something that almost all bullys fear), they are threatening to "run to the principal".
By their behavior here alone, his former employer is proving his point that they are a shitty place to work.
I believe that if they (former company) contacts his current employer, it will be THEY who is in legal deep shit.
There are laws that severly limit what your employer can say about you to future/prospective employers. For instance, I've been told that legally, all your former employers can say is:
1. You worked there from X date to Y date
2. If you are or are not rehirable.
Since I'd assume that the person who submitted this story probably used the former company as a reference for his current employment, this would certainly apply.
I'd get a lawyer to at least send the bozos a threatening letter stating that if they do anything to threaten your current employment, you will pursue them for all civil and criminal liability. As it would be harassment (at least), the company and officers would be personally liable for CRIMINAL charges.
Also, keep in mind that the truth is an ABSOLUTE defense in any case of libel or slander. If you told the truth, there is nothing to worry about (unless, as other posters have said, the ex-company is the MPAA and the judge assigned is named Kaplan).
Also, even IF you signed a NDA, if your former company was doing anything illegal, that you were talking about (such as violating labor laws, for example) this makes any such contract null and void.
You are wrong about the Kent State Massacre. The students that were shot were ones that were merely walking between classes. They were not participating in the protests.
Their only crime was being in the way of the bullets of some government jack booted thugs.
It seems that we as citizens have learned NOTHING from that event. Though the public reaction to the Kent State Massacre was outrage, the 1990's saw more American citizens than ever massacred by government stormtrooper "mistakes". I'm referring to Waco and Ruby Ridge. And there wasn't the outrage that was seen in 1970. For one thing, the news media in 1970 was NOT the establishment's puppet as it is today. Waco and Ruby Ridge were both reported incorrectly with a pro-government slant.
"So now they have no recourse against the government at all
Except for the democratic process of elections,of course.
"
Without armed citizens, what threat can be held against the government if they decide to NOT obey an election?
I cannot think of even ONE country that has disarmed it's citizens that is still free. The UK since Comrade Blair took office has been turning the UK rapidly into a fascist police state.
"What pisses me off more than microsoft's antics, and their apparent disregard for the government's wishes, is that people in general don't see anything wrong with these shinanigans(sp?). (And by people, I mainly mean the corporate IT guys, and by corporate IT guys, I mean my boss.)"
This should suprise no one. Microsoft is where they are today because of slick marketing than anything else. The average IT manager knows far less about IT than the people he/she manages, it's just a fact of life, because working with the stuff isn't the manager's job.
I think someone will eventually reverse engineer the `Doze media audio format, as was done with the Fraunhoffer(sp) MP3 encoder codecs.
That is, if `Doze media ever gets that important. Sure, it sounds better than does the typical real audio stream, but it doesn't sound as good as MP3 streaming.
I think that you are right, this is more about M$ trying to monopolize audio formats. But, their scheme sounds to me that what they are proposing is no better than SDMI, and probably worse (less secure) in fact. After all, Microsoft has not, will not, and never will release ANYTHING without some significant bug or security exploit...
The real world has already chosen MP3 as the standard format for audio and for streaming audio. If the RIAA can't do a thing to stop it, neither can Microsoft.
Apple was using some weird benchmark based on Photoshop... Others have tested the 500 Mhz G4 againt 500+ MHz AMD chips and found the G4 lacking.
"Sure, it's Apples fault that Motorola can't/won't get their chip to go faster."
Yes it IS Apple's fault... Their license agreement forbids them from using the IBM PPC chip, which has already hit 1 GHz, I believe...
And several reputable hardware sites have already debunked the myth of the G4 PPC being faster clock per clock than an Athlon...
Face it. Apple is dead. They are relying on pretty plastic cases and a pseudo-Unix OS to save them. Unfortunately they don't know that plastic cases suck (RF leakage) and that they should just adopt an established Unix (BSD/Linux) rather than copy and call it "OS X"
It seems to me that it's usually the dying companies, or the ones in imminent danger of death (Rambus, GeoWorks, Apple) who turn to the lawyers instead of R&D.
It's a myth that Apple invented the GUI. They just stole it from Xerox before Microsoft did. I do not and will never want my GNOME desktop to look like the Mac, I've never liked Apple's GUI anyway.
As much as I hate Microsoft, I have to admit, had Apple won the war with IBM/Intel/MS, things would be SO much worse. Imagine only having ONE PC vendor...
Apple needs to realize that computers are not cars. They are never going to be able to caputure enough marketshare just by trying to make computers that looks "cute" like the VW Beetle.
Maybe they should be spending more time trying to get a processor that will hit 700 Mhz than on silly lawsuits and tacky plastic cases.
First off, the police state types have this inconvienient problem of our written Constitution and bill of rights (which they do not have in the UK).
But imagine the outrage... While the masses may be ignorant enough of the technical details of the DMCA not to get up in arms over it (at least until it becomes impossible to tape stuff), THIS would hit every Joe 6-pack. EVERYONE speeds. Why? Because most highway speed limits are unreasonably low for the conditions and design of the road.
Also, I don't think the law enforcement types would like this either. One reason why speed limits are lower than they should be is that speeding tickets are an excellent form of tax revenue. This would eliminate the need for speed traps, and thus, the cops might actually have to go after REAL criminals.
But then again, this sort of thing does fit right in with a "1984" society, which we seem to be advancing towards at an alarming rate.
Only a completely mis-educated, ignorant citizenry would allow police THIS kind of control over them. Why aren't they burning things in the streets of London over this proposal, AND the odius "RIP" law (that allows any cop to demand your encryption keys at will, and mandates jail time if you refuse or reveal to anyone that they DID get your keys)?
Oh yes. I forgot. They disarmed UK citizens. So now they have no recourse against the government at all. Notice that they seem to be taking advantage of this?
"and shouldn't have to search Deja or post regarding securing a newly installed Linux box; such documents would be good included on disk and *on paper* in a manual"
Ever read the manuals that come with `Doze 2000 pro? Pretty useless aren't they? Where in the M$ docs is there instructions in how to keep Outlook from letting in every freaking virus that comes out? Or is that a feature?
I doubt there is a SINGLE Linux distro that does not include the HOWTO documents on the CD. Including the one telling you how to secure the system.
"Where did it say they had no experience? They may be new to Linux but, I guess you feel that all other experience doesn't count"
Other experience does count in some ways. PC and network fundamentals for example. But even that won't make you a Linux engineer after a cram class and some tests.
"Also, victory by attrition wasn't a "DARWINIAN PROCESS"....get real!"
It isn't? Sure seems like it to me. Seems to me like throwing people in there to either learn at an impossible rate or fail... Acquiring employees in a Darwinian way such as what Linuxgruven is doing is a very ineffieicnt and cruel way to do it. But it's cheap.
"I interviewed with compaq, and got turned down, because I did not complete my MCSE"
Cases like that are really the ONLY reason why certifications are useful. Your certification may be one reason why they hire you, but your experience will be what keeps you there and advances your position.
Most companies care more about what you can do than anything else. Having years of experience on your resume will help. Chances are, a company that refuses to hire you for a position you are qualified for, and have experience to prove it, is NOT where you want to work in the first place. You would end up working with a lot of "paper" MCSE's.
That said, I highly recommend to anyone with the experience to make it meaningful go get the certification. I'm working on it myself right now. After 8 years as a tech, I'm certainly ready now to move up to an Engineer position, and have the experience to make the cert mean something when I get it.
"HELLO!!! They are getting that salary, haven' t you read the other posts? Reply with fact and knowledge or move on!"
Really? What company can pay entry level people with no experience $45,000 and make money? They can't. And I bet they don't. I'd bet that more than 75% never pass the test, and of the remaining 25%, most of them don't make it a year. Unless I miss my guess, Linuxgruven is actually using a horribly DARWINIAN process of getting qualified people, at the expense of horrific turnover. And the kicker is they are getting PAID to train their own people! Guess it's good for the company if they can get away with it, but it's sure not a great way to offer experienced professionals to your clients.
An experienced and certified Linux Engineer will make a LOT more than $45,000.
"Linuxgruven came along and offered me the chance to shine in a (finaly) emerging field. If you think you are good but just can't get a company to believe you and take a chance on you, what are you supposed to do? Entry level help desk at $9.00 an hour ain't for me baby!!!"
Well, hard work and experience eventually landed me a solid job with one of the top 3 computer companies in the world. And they hired me FOR my uncertified Linux experience, which is growing rapidly now that I actually get to work with it at work.
I agree that the MCSE is not the way to go. It is nice to have, but not really worth the effort. It is best to get all the experience you can with every OS you can though. I work with Novell, Linux, SCO, and `Doze in my current job. Do I make less than I could make if I took another job? Sure, I could get $5-10K more. But I wouldn't get such broad and practical experience that will eventually get me that 5-10K+more in the future.
There is no substitute for experience AND working your way up.
"I will agree with one point, training isn't the answer, it's a start and experience is the great equalizer,but don't "diss" someone if they have the tenacity to try."
I'm not dissing them for trying. But they are setting themselves up for hard reality if they let any company lead them to believe ANY certification alone +no experience will get you that kind of starting salary.
"Or, is it the fact that, your MANY (lol) years of Linux experience has made you diconnected from the rest of mankind to the point you can't stand these new "zelots" jumping on the Linux bandwagon?"
The tech profession is one of the few left in the world where the cream ALWAYS rises to the top.
Simply put, you can get all the certifications in the world, but if you can't fix the PC, or set up the network, or fix the server when it breaks, your job security is nil.
There are LOTS of people who have lately flocked into tech in the last 2-3 years because of the pay. I was working as a technician before the boom began, and now that times are not so great, guess what, I'll still be employed long after the last "paper MCSE" has been let go.
My point being, there is no such thing as a 2-4-6-8 whatever week training course and test that will EVER make you good enough to start from zip and work as an engineer. Unless you were already so gifted that you actually never need the course to begin with.
Training and certifications may get you in the door, but it's what you do after you are in there that will count in the long run. Certification validates experience, but does not substitute for it.
There is no such thing as a free lunch, especially in the tech industry, where your knowledge is tested and pushed every single day.
"Right, you're the one of these posters without a sequential ID#, and they continue after you, in perfect succession, like an old-timer (sorta) is part of this apparent scam, and generated all these accounts to back it up, then when you got challenged you pulled this one out to give yourself some semblence of legitimacy and then went right back to your old tricks"
./ isn't good for any company that purports to be a Linux company, as everyone who is ANYONE in the Linux industry reads this site...
Never underestimate the lowball tactics of sleazy sales and marketerdroids. If there IS such a thing as the "Dark Side of the Force" it's marketing...
I too noticed the nearly sequential and recent accounts that seemed soon after this article was posted, flooded the comments.
Getting bad press exposure on
Honestly, I feel these guys deserve it. Their scheme sounds more like it's designed to collect $2500 than to educate or hire anyone.
What service company would have anything to sell that employed only recent inexperienced certified people?
About the only service Linuxgruven could offer would be cannon fodder suitable for the BOFH's Helldesk (ie people he can intimidate and dupe).
Not to say that everyone who they have trained is like that, but most of the people who will fall for this are people who aren't going to make it in this industry.
"You also offer me a class, that is at my own expense, that will help me pass the tests. If I stay a year I get my money back for the class and the tests. In the mean time I get $21.64 an hour plus health insurance for me, my wife, and four kids. TOUGH DECISION!"
IMO, it sounds to me like Linuxgruven is in the business of taking your $2500, giving you instruction (that Sair seems to be saying isn't up to their standards), then testing you. If you fail, they have your money.
If you succeed, you have a job making more money than you are worth given your experience and knowledge, that is only as secure as long as their quasi-ponsi bubble lasts?
Better to deliver pizzas, get yourself a PC, some books and start playing with it. In months if you have the ability, you will be ready to work as an entry-level tech for someone, where you will get the REAL experience you need to make the certs mean something.
"I know several people who are self-taught and completely uncertified, who do small office networking and such, and charge $80-150 an hour. They have absolutely no trouble getting it"
Exactly what I've experienced. I'm 100% self taught. My computer expereince dates back to the VIC-20 in 1980. I worked as a PC tech for 6 years before getting the A+ certification, which was done because my employer required it (our techs had to be A+ certified for certain contract customers). I didn't study and got 93% on the core and 90% on the DOS/Windows part...
Now granted, someone can study books, take a training course, and get the 65% required to pass, but who are you going to hire? Someone with the A+ and 8 years experience? Sure I cost a lot more, but a service company that employs paper technicians is NOT going to keep customers happy.
Having worked with networks, Novell, Linux, and `Doze for the last 2 years, I'm now considering going for a network engineer certification. Not for it's own sake, but to VALIDATE my experience.
I would NEVER work somewhere where they wanted you up front to pay for your training. Also, no insult intended, but what kind of company who pays salaries like that to green employees with no work experience is going to make it. What services CAN they offer?
/.
No one can just take a cram course, pass a few tests, and be an instant expert. I've worked with Linux as a hobbyist for just over a year now, and I've run it mostly as my main OS. I started with RH 6.1, which won't impress many here on
But only NOW, after a year of using Linux, configuring it, playing with it, etc, do I even feel I'm ready to ATTEMPT to go after some kind of certification (Sair is probably the route I'll go). Fortunately, my last 2 months working for a major company in Durham, NC has accelerated my Linux education, as I've been able to use it on the job.
I'm FAR from a PC newbie. I've worked as a PC technician for over 8 years now (A+ certified). Linux is very different from the DOS/Doze world, so different that it was very hard even for someone like me in the beginning to grasp it.
Having worked in the tech industry as long as I have, I've come to be able to spot the difference between the people who KNOW what they are doing, and the ones who have paper that says they know it.
Certification training is NOT the be all and end all. It's only value is to validate to others that you are able to pass a certain level of tests of knowledge. It only goes WITH your experience to validate that you truly HAVE those skills. People who are only trained to pass tests are virtually worthless in the tech biz. Even worse, they devalue the certification itself (as the MCSE has become).
Simply put, if you have the ability, get yourself the training. Play with a PC. A PC that will run Linux adequately can be had very cheaply. Find an entry-level job working as a bench technician. You will learn all the fundamentals there.
If you have the talent, you will be better served by doing 6 months of even low level practical work than you ever will get out of years of book and classroom training.
eToys showed their asses last year when they got some "judge" Kaplan to basically prevent Etoy from being able to have their website up during the Christmas sales season. eToys then dropped their suit (probably when they realized they'd ultimately lose).
Now that eToys is tottering on going titsup.com (as The Register puts it) I think it's only poetic justice that it will be Etoy driving a nail in the coffin. It makes sense on their part to try to help kill eToys, who could restart their suit at a future date.
"Unions do nothing but promote mediocrity. They dont reward for being a better worker and they DO reward for being "just good enough" (Which in a union shop, is usually pretty bad)."
You have a great point about this. Unions also are allowed to dip into your paycheck practically at will and they use this money soley to promote ONE political party that over 40% of union members do not support.
Which is a stupid way to buy influence, the reason why the corpers contribute to BOTH parties is so that they have influence no matter WHO wins...
Also, unions have had a lot to do with the de-industrialization of the USA. Back in the 70's and early 80's, virtually EVERY factory where I'm from (Ashland, Ky) ended up shutting down, mostly after the unions comitted job suicide by strike after strike during bad economic times.
Now don't get me wrong, unions DO have their place, and at one time, in the early 20th Century did a LOT of good in getting reforms in workplace safety, the 40 hour work week, etc. But I think they have long outlived their usefulness in the places where they are still prevalent (heavy industry and government). Workers apparently realize this as well, as union workers are now a small minority of the total workforce.
Will unions come to the tech professions? Sadly, YES. Why? Because of operators like the place I used to work for. The management treated the tech department like dogs, paid us nothing (and refused to give me a raise at mu annual review despite the review being near perfect). They took full advantage of West Virginia's "Chineese overtime" system (as it is called) and paid us far less than our hourly rate for overtime that at times we were FORCED to work.
It should come as no surprise to anyone that the tech staff turned over 100% from the time I was hired until the time I left.
So yes, I DO think unions will come to technicians, and other service workers. But it will be the beginning of the end of the tech industry as we know it.
I just hope we are a lot smarter about it and keep control with ourselves, and not create a political self-serving bureaucratic machine like the AFL-CIO or the Teamsters (who had a president, Ron Carey who stole an election, called the UPS strike solely to try to save his own ass, and ended up settling for pay increases that would take the average UPS worker 5 YEARS to recoup the pay they missed during the strike.).
We as a profession do NOT want to go down that road.